Argument for free will inferred from two verses in the NT (calling Jesus 'Lord')

[CHB]

God is intervening and moderating in evry life evil or good. He is using our actions in accordance with His grand design in ways to great for us to fathom. He is the one "who causes all things to work in accordance with the counsel of His will"

I think its a shame that religious button pushing makes it so difficult to discuss the subject matter, because it is brilliant material and continually illuminating- but, so be it.

Hi eaglesway, I agree.  :dsunny:

CHB

[eaglesway]

Hey CHB :o) Just got back from Boone Sunday. Next time we'll get that cup o joe :o)

[marie glen]

We get hung up on terminology that doesnt even mean the same things in our separate minds when we hear them or say them. I do not believe in a "totally free will". God is intervening and moderating in evry life evil or good. He is using our actions in accordance with His grand design in ways to great for us to fathom. He is the one "who causes all things to work in accordance with the counsel of His will" However, I do not believe God "programs" this. His way is, imo, higher than that. It is clear to me from the scriptures that God has given us a qualified freedom, a stewardship lets say- over our lives, gifts, time, etc. It is a growth in discipleship and sonship responsibility in which we must be engaged and accountable. Through it He is leading us into an even greater freedom, the glorious freedom of the children of God(into which the entire creation shall be introduced and enjoy in the consummation when God is all in all).

The way I see it- it will not be until "the end "(1 cor 15:28) that all will be "free"(Romans 8:18-25). Their wills totally in harmony with the I AM and therefore both TOTALLY SUBMITTED AND TOTALLY FREE AT THE SAME TIME.

I think its a shame that religious button pushing makes it so difficult to discuss the subject matter, because it is brilliant material and continually illuminating- but, so be it.

:iagree:  :iagree: I believe God endowed thinking ability... which has within it, the ability to make some choices in our little lives.. it is by no means 'free will' for we are certainly in our imperfect state, by no means "free" and even what choices in life we have are very much limited.. not like the sky is the limit for us.. choose whatever we will.. hardly! but we do have the ability to think, reason, ponder, choose.. all of it very limited however, especially compared to the Great I AM! :laughing7: But i daresay, had He wanted robots or simple creatures who were fully programmed to do all His will.. well, obviously that wasn't or isn't what He's after.. (is creating)

blessings to all!
glenda marie

[WhiteWings]

1 Cor. 12:3  Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

Matt 7:21  Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

According to those that believe in free will, those that say "Lord Lord" but did not enter into Heaven used to be saved but lose their salvation because they could not have called Jesus 'Lord' except by the Holy Spirit.  How can this be addressed?

Edit: I think I have an answer but I want to ask you first.  My answer is that God works through the unsaved and even sends his Spirit to them.  Caiaphas, even as he was plotting to murder Jesus, was prophecizing  (John 11:49-53).  Judas Iscariot had a ministry like the apostles. Yet, according to Jesus, He never loss any of the ones the Father gave him, which infers that Judas was never one of the ones given to Him by the Father.

What do you think?

About losing salvation, I think that's impossible beyond a certain covenant level.

Saying "Lord Lord" can mean to things from me:

a] Just lies. Example a TV preacher that gives nice sermons to fund his 3rd house.
b] No good works to back things up. It's great speaking God's word but it doesn't sound very honest while slaughtering innocent people. Hypocrites.

[micah7:9]

God is intervening and moderating in evry life evil or good. He is using our actions in accordance with His grand design in ways to great for us to fathom. He is the one "who causes all things to work in accordance with the counsel of His will"

I think its a shame that religious button pushing makes it so difficult to discuss the subject matter, because it is brilliant material and continually illuminating- but, so be it.

Hi eaglesway, I agree.  :dsunny:

CHB

:dsunny:

[VineBranch]

 

I believe God endowed thinking ability... which has within it, the ability to make some choices in our little lives.. it is by no means 'free will' for we are certainly in our imperfect state, by no means "free" and even what choices in life we have are very much limited.. not like the sky is the limit for us.. choose whatever we will.. hardly! but we do have the ability to think, reason, ponder, choose.. all of it very limited however, especially compared to the Great I AM! :laughing7: But i daresay, had He wanted robots or simple creatures who were fully programmed to do all His will.. well, obviously that wasn't or isn't what He's after.. (is creating)

blessings to all!
glenda marie

Very interesting observation marie.  May I humbly add 'observe'?

I've come to agree with C.S. Lewis that the universe is a class-room and not a place wherein all our hedonistic desires are supposed to be met.  What I have come to see is that free-will as it's been bantered about for years in my life is nothing more then a once believed notion.  I think one of the things The Father wants is for us to understand things like cause and effect.  I imagine myself sometimes in a vehicle (perhaps a school bus) travelling through life and out the window I see things;  a little while later I see the consequences of those things.  As a result I learn, and eventually understand.

If those things didn't happen, I wouldn't have seen how they turned out.  This is true for my own actions as well.  Paul talks about not doing what he wanted and doing what he didn't.  Could it be that this is the way it is so that Paul could truly understand the nature of himself and his actions?  Just a thought.

[Timios]

What does "free will" mean to you?

Here is the way I understand it:

If person Q having made choice X at time T in circumstances C, could have chosen not-X at time T in circumstances C, then he has free will.

[JulieTang84]

What does "free will" mean to you?

Here is the way I understand it:

If person Q having made choice X at time T in circumstances C, could have chosen not-X at time T in circumstances C, then he has free will.

Great question Timios. What does Free Will mean to me?

Firstly, if Father "willed" everything that we know, then free or not, I cannot. Now if "will" means "choice" then arguably this is not nearly as free as we pretend it is. Case in point: how many times has a book, movie, music or even a dish been dismissed because something in our past caused not even a chance. How free is that? Especially, if sometime in the future, what ever it is, is tried and it is Loved!!

Also, on a very pragmatic level. I can choose to jump 18ft high or hold my breath for 20mins, but my "choice" has constraints that I cannot overcome. Even when we make choices through out the day, most fall within our comfort zone.

But Jesus taught through Spirit and as such if one looks at freedom through the eyes of spirit, who really wants to be free??? Don't we all want to be One with Father and all else? I do  :cloud9:

Just my thoughts,

Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

[WhiteWings]

What does "free will" mean to you?

Pick from a limited set of options God gave you.

[marie glen]

I believe God endowed thinking ability... which has within it, the ability to make some choices in our little lives.. it is by no means 'free will' for we are certainly in our imperfect state, by no means "free" and even what choices in life we have are very much limited.. not like the sky is the limit for us.. choose whatever we will.. hardly! but we do have the ability to think, reason, ponder, choose.. all of it very limited however, especially compared to the Great I AM! :laughing7: But i daresay, had He wanted robots or simple creatures who were fully programmed to do all His will.. well, obviously that wasn't or isn't what He's after.. (is creating)

blessings to all!
glenda marie

Very interesting observation marie.  May I humbly add 'observe'?

I've come to agree with C.S. Lewis that the universe is a class-room and not a place wherein all our hedonistic desires are supposed to be met.  What I have come to see is that free-will as it's been bantered about for years in my life is nothing more then a once believed notion.  I think one of the things The Father wants is for us to understand things like cause and effect.  I imagine myself sometimes in a vehicle (perhaps a school bus) travelling through life and out the window I see things;  a little while later I see the consequences of those things.  As a result I learn, and eventually understand.

If those things didn't happen, I wouldn't have seen how they turned out.  This is true for my own actions as well.  Paul talks about not doing what he wanted and doing what he didn't.  Could it be that this is the way it is so that Paul could truly understand the nature of himself and his actions?  Just a thought.

What does "free will" mean to you?

Pick from a limited set of options God gave you.

Amen guys! Even if we did have totally free will, it too surely, would be imperfect! Very limited.. due to the law of sin and death (imo, imperfection)

And, also, we do not have any free will, or even choice when it comes to our eternal destiny (as some would call it) for the scripture seems to me to clearly say that God chooses whom He will.. one as a vessel for noble use (enlightenment/salvation in this life, the "elect") and another vessel for ignoble use (not saved during this life, I would presume for an excellent reason having to do with God's plan, er lesson plan! (Imo, this drama, of this life, we all in heaven and earth, are watching.)

And too.. what is said to be the best teacher? :smile:

[Seth]

What does "free will" mean to you?

Here is the way I understand it:

If person Q having made choice X at time T in circumstances C, could have chosen not-X at time T in circumstances C, then he has free will.

I distinguish the term "WILL" from "CHOICE." Here is how I define those terms:

WILL: the capacity to make a choice
CHOICE: the selection of one option over other options

A FREE will, therefore is the ability to make a choice completely free of influence, which I do not believe is real. Since the term "free will" is not a scripture term with a scripture definition, it falls upon each person to determine what they believe the term means, which is why we see so many arguments about free will where people are arguing but not realizing they have different definitions of the term, and nobody can agree on a single set definition on which to base an argument.

I don't like to get into long discussions about free will. I will simply say that from the body of scripture I see, the common Orthodox view of "free will" - as in God as a responsive agent to man's choices - is not correct.

The one thing I keep in mind is that God is invisible. So, even if you don't see his hand at work in even your smallest choices, does not mean it's not there.

[JulieTang84]

Amen Seth, our entire lives are the product of influence. Even when called by the Spirit, unless our reasoning comes directly from the heart and not the mind, we are influenced still.

We believe we are free, but really we are but a product of our mind and all that has molded it.

Just how free is that? Is it any wonder why Jesus said to let go of every thing and lean on him. The burdens we carry are crippling and we solider on unaware

Father knows this and LOVE us still.  :HeartThrob:

Love Julie   :HeartThrob:

[eaglesway]

If you continue in my word, you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.

I am the way, the truth and the life.

For freedom, Christ has set you free! Why then be subject again to a yoke of bondage?

The wind blows where it wills and you hear the sound of it, but you don't know where it comes from or where it is going.....so it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.

[micah7:9]

 Gen 2:7  And Jehovah God formeth('yatsar') the man--dust from the ground, and breatheth into his nostrils breath of life, and the man becometh a living creature.
Gen 2:21  And Jehovah God causeth a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and he sleepeth, and He taketh one of his ribs, and closeth up flesh in its stead.
Gen 2:22  And Jehovah God buildeth('banah'-make) up the rib which He hath taken out of the man into a woman, and bringeth her in unto the man;
Gen 2:23  and the man saith, `This is the proper step! bone of my bone, and flesh of my flesh!' for this it is called Woman, for from a man hath this been taken;

*****Rom 7:18  for I have known that there doth not dwell in me, that is, in my flesh, good: for to will is present with me, and to work that which is right I do not find, Rom 7:19  for the good that I will, I do not; but the evil that I do not will, this I practise. Rom 7:20  And if what I do not will, this I do, it is no longer I that work it, but the sin that is dwelling in me. *****

Rom 8:20  For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Knowing this, can the thought that man has  "free will" be put to rest?
The Lord God, through His Wisdom, by way of the dust of the ground when He formed man, man became FLESH, so I can see how Gen. 2:17, the warning, would be by design.

It seems man's thinking causes man to take part in the responsibility for what is called "the fall" a step(the first), which the Lord God has taken full responsibility for, and that being (Gen. 3:5-6) 
In the above thought is there any place that assumes or speculates that man was given a free will?  That man's will had a hand in what was planned for the Lord's purpose is obtuse. 
Joh 12:24  Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

PS. How can any UR consider man having a free will, when Paul states 1Ti 2:3  for this is right and acceptable before God our Saviour,
1Ti 2:4  who doth will all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth;
:dsunny:

[micah7:9]

What has this to do with man having free will? "the wind(the Lord God) blows where IT wills...." there you have the WILL, nothing to do with me as man. Or what don't I understand? I do not understand what you post EW. I am one of the slow ones.



"If you continue in my word, you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.

I am the way, the truth and the life.

For freedom, Christ has set you free! Why then be subject again to a yoke of bondage?

The wind blows where it wills and you hear the sound of it, but you don't know where it comes from or where it is going.....so it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."

[JulieTang84]

What has this to do with man having free will? "the wind(the Lord God) blows where IT wills...." there you have the WILL, nothing to do with me as man. Or what don't I understand? I do not understand what you post EW. I am one of the slow ones.

Oh don't be so hard on yourself Micah. Let's put something to rest now. Free Will to you and I is way different than Free Will to Father. We were given freedom to think, reason, love, hate and for that matter decide what to eat when we are hungry. There is a NOT HUGE difference between us having TOTAL freedom in choosing what we want (based on our own choice boundries) and Father KNOWNG what we will do, when and why. Father knows each of us better than we will ever. He does not need to direct our every thought, word or action. We are free to do what we must. What we must? I will touch on this in a bit. Father has said, that we cannnot even direct our steps; many think therefore each step is directed by Father. This is a fallacy on many levels; however, what Father means is that NO one can come to Jesus until Father opens ones heart. In short, man can walk and say what they want, yet Jesus will say: "I do not know you!"

So here FREE WILL takes a nose dive, we are free on so many fronts but not that one. It is all Father.  :HeartThrob:

"If you continue in my word, you will know that truth and the truth will set you free"

Free from what? To "will" what we want? Not likely. To be free from debt, sickness, bullying or sadness? Yes and No.  Certainly miracles can happen and without reason, whatever was wrong is fixed. We tend to like miracles such as this, but the true miracle is even greater.

Being set free: is being free of fear to the point of KNOWING everything will be okay. Knowing that HELL is a hoax; bodily death is not the same as spirit, knowing that loved ones (their spirit) will be fully part of you again. Perhaps the greatest Freedom is being FREE of the person you were, being born again so to speak with a Spirit of peace and love that words cannot explain.

Being Free is being able to Thank Father for everything, seeing nothing as a hardship and everything as an opportunity to show ones Love to Father. All of which brings greater peace and contentment than any temporal miracle might bring.

Gosh I hope this helps a little.

Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

[micah7:9]

 My thought was on free will not free choice. :dsunny:

[eaglesway]

Micah, you are not slow by any means :o) We just see a huge gem from different perspectives. I am communicating what I see. You are communicating what you see. Neither of us(nor anyone else) can fathom the whole depth of the many faceted wisdom of God, "For who has known the mind of the Lord?"

I believe that God is setting everyone free, "For freedom Christ has set you free". I believe that freedom comes as we grow "in the spirit"- becoming filled up with love. This is how I see the predestination of God( for all who He forknew He predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son"). I believe this is the glorious liberty of the children of God, and that the whole universe will be brought into it.

For me, wind and water describe it perfectly. We are being transformed into wind- totally free. We are being transformed into water, totally immersed in the universal oneness of God, yet, as individual drops, totally self aware and aware of each other.

I do not believe God controls everything, as much as I believe He has set in motion the parameters of the process by which He is transforming all things- Behold I make all things new.

I do believe God is intimately involved every step along the way with each one and all together. I also believe He knows who we are before we are born and what we will become and when.

I also don't think I see this clearly. These are my misty opinions based on my present revelation. I only share them so that they can be resisted, refined, perhaps even overturned ;o)

I just don't think God can set us free if we have NO freedom. He is preparing us for stewardship(ministry of reconciliation, glorious liberty of the sons of God) as He transforms us in love. As partakers of the divine nature we grow in the measure of what He can trust us with, and reflect more clearly the image of His Son.

When love is perfected, freedom will be complete. Perfect love is completely free because it can do no harm and does only well in the joy of its own union and harmony.

You shall know the truth(I am the way the truth and the life), and the truth shall make you free :o).

How the freedom we are being given and the will fo God over all things work together in the inner workings of the wisdom of God and the mind of Christ? I would not presume to say I understand all of that. :o)

[micah7:9]

"I do not believe God controls everything, as much as I believe He has set in motion the parameters of the process by which He is transforming all things- Behold I make all things new.

I do believe God is intimately involved every step along the way with each one and all together. I also believe He knows who we are before we are born and what we will become and when."

How can He not be in control of everything, if He is "transforming all things" and make all things new? And if God " is intimately involved every step along the way with each one and all together.."
And " He knows who we are before we are born and what we will become and when."
How does that not make Him the cause for each and every choice and turn man makes?

My thought is about how did the teaching of man having free will get into the picture? Where is the evidence that man was given free will?
I am not speaking of the born from above man, for he has the mind of Christ and yes the "wind" then is the Motivator. Man's will after he has been drawn, his will becomes that of the Father, man still falls but gets up in joy because of the Blood, but I am speaking of free will as something man was given, where is that evidence?
Seems to me that man desires this free will, so that he can take some of the responsibility of what the ALMIGHTY takes full responsibility for....His creation and all it's workings.

[JulieTang84]

I quoted all of this EW as it speaks the words of my heart through the glory of Christ, better than I could. THANK-YOU!!!!


Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

Micah, you are not slow by any means :o) We just see a huge gem from different perspectives. I am communicating what I see. You are communicating what you see. Neither of us(nor anyone else) can fathom the whole depth of the many faceted wisdom of God, "For who has known the mind of the Lord?"

I believe that God is setting everyone free, "For freedom Christ has set you free". I believe that freedom comes as we grow "in the spirit"- becoming filled up with love. This is how I see the predestination of God( for all who He forknew He predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son"). I believe this is the glorious liberty of the children of God, and that the whole universe will be brought into it.

For me, wind and water describe it perfectly. We are being transformed into wind- totally free. We are being transformed into water, totally immersed in the universal oneness of God, yet, as individual drops, totally self aware and aware of each other.

I do not believe God controls everything, as much as I believe He has set in motion the parameters of the process by which He is transforming all things- Behold I make all things new.

I do believe God is intimately involved every step along the way with each one and all together. I also believe He knows who we are before we are born and what we will become and when.

I also don't think I see this clearly. These are my misty opinions based on my present revelation. I only share them so that they can be resisted, refined, perhaps even overturned ;o)

I just don't think God can set us free if we have NO freedom. He is preparing us for stewardship(ministry of reconciliation, glorious liberty of the sons of God) as He transforms us in love. As partakers of the divine nature we grow in the measure of what He can trust us with, and reflect more clearly the image of His Son.

When love is perfected, freedom will be complete. Perfect love is completely free because it can do no harm and does only well in the joy of its own union and harmony.

You shall know the truth(I am the way the truth and the life), and the truth shall make you free :o).

How the freedom we are being given and the will fo God over all things work together in the inner workings of the wisdom of God and the mind of Christ? I would not presume to say I understand all of that. :o)

[JulieTang84]

How can He not be in control of everything, if He is "transforming all things" and make all things new? And if God " is intimately involved every step along the way with each one and all together.."
And " He knows who we are before we are born and what we will become and when."
How does that not make Him the cause for each and every choice and turn man makes?

My thought is about how did the teaching of man having free will get into the picture? Where is the evidence that man was given free will?

Please excuse me for butting in again Micah. Of course Father is in control of everything, but to what level? Does Father have to micro manage every last detail? Like down to the function of even a single cell. Let's face it, even the complexity of a cell in how it operates, and knows what to do based on a specific DNA sequence. I mean how could something so small operate all by itself, splitting and re-splitting as needed? The answer is obvious? Because Father designed it this way; nothing happens outside of the scope of the design.

So yes Father is in control of the physical universe as we know it, but not to the point of MAKING me take a firearm and walk into a crowded supermarket and kill dozens of innocent people. To think this is giving reason to do what you want to whom. The teachings of Satan for sure. Rather, Father has given one the means to perform such an act, and also the reasoning, compassion (LOVE)and conscious to not commit such an act. We simply choose not to. Father isn't MAKING us decide anything, He just knows what we will do before we do. This is not control, it is knowing. A huge difference.

I am an application developer among other things and can write an application to perform a task and include constraints this ensuring it works as designed and only as designed. I have no control over whom uses the application, when or where, but I do know that it will perform as designed. Knowledge is not controlling. Father KNOWS everything, but HE does not MAKE us LOVE HIM, He just opens the door / window.

Hoping this helps again

Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

[eaglesway]

I gues Micah, it may hinge on our definition of control. I like the analogy of raising children. As they grow we remove the constraints of control. We allow them to grow through the decisions they make- good and bad. I see the Father operating in this way with us.

[micah7:9]

I don't like the word "control" it falls short, in fact even something ugly, when it comes to the Creator. You see, I do not believe the Lord God began His work with a thought of "controlling," but He set the plan and purpose to work for RESTORATION, one cannot restore anything that has not been ruined.

" The teachings of Satan for sure." As far as my belief, there is no "teaching of satan."
"Father has given one the means to perform such an act, and also the reasoning, compassion (LOVE)and conscious to not commit such an act." Not without Him drawing you. Man was made to do such a thing see Gen. 4:8...We, man can only "choose" not to do evil after we have been caused to KNOW Him.

"Father isn't MAKING us decide anything, He just knows what we will do before we do."  Now that is an amazing statement.

I am a retired man, other than having been given, by grace to begin my journey to know the Lord, I am but a shadow in a world of shadows.

Father KNOWS everything, but HE does not MAKE us LOVE HIM, He just opens the door / window."
No He does not make us love Him, simply, when He draws you.....it had to be love given...that embrace is one I did not look for.....I love Him....but am so very weak in that love compared to His.

[JulieTang84]

Micah I would never call you weak in the eyes of Father, for the spirit is clearly seen through your manner on this forum. It seems we are on the same page regarding "Controlling."  You are so right in saying: "We, man can only "choose" not to do evil after we have been caused to KNOW him."

There are untold accounts of kind, compassionate and very wise people throughout history (Buddhism and Hinduism and even some native Indian tribes here in the USA.) These people were and I would say still are very much examples of Father causing himself to be known. Of course some will say that they do not know Jesus and thus could not know Father. But Jesus was spirit before becoming man and is spirit once more. Who are we to say (limit) has been given the spirit of Love and who hasn't.
   
Rev 22:13
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

Most fail to see the obvious in this Scripture. Christ is the END, not the end that will come but rather the END that has been written.

Ecc 3:11
He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the human heart; yetfn no one can fathom what God has done from beginning to end.

I just love this verse. There isn't a people on Earth that doesn't seek something that they know cannot be found in this dimension.

Love is Light and it's fruits are seen through actions, and not words alone.

Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

[jabcat]

There are untold accounts of kind, compassionate and very wise people throughout history (Buddhism and Hinduism and even some native Indian tribes here in the USA.) These people were and I would say still are very much examples of Father causing himself to be known. Of course some will say that they do not know Jesus and thus could not know Father. But Jesus was spirit before becoming man and is spirit once more. Who are we to say (limit) has been given      the spirit of Love [?]    and who hasn't.

   

Jn. 1:12 He gave the right and the power to become children of God to those who received Him. He gave this to those who put their trust in His name.

I John 4:1 Beloved, do not trust every spirit but test the spirits to see whether they belong to God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.  2 This is how you can know the Spirit of God: every spirit that acknowledges Jesus Christ come in the flesh belongs to God,  3 and every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus does not belong to God.