"IT IS FINISHED" -WHAT DID JESUS MEAN BY SAYING THAT?

[Seth]

I know Seth and rosie, and I'll venture to say that in no way do I believe they deny that on the Day of the Lord all will be fully reconciled to God.  It's just more so that it occurs in stages, i.e., some now (few), the rest "at His appearing".   

Yes, the salvation of the whole world is a process from beginning to end, from revelation to belief to obedience to salvation. I believe this will occur for ALL mankind.  :HeartThrob:

[rosered]

I know Seth and rosie, and I'll venture to say that in no way do I believe they deny that on the Day of the Lord all will be fully reconciled to God.  It's just more so that it occurs in stages, i.e., some now (few), the rest "at His appearing".   

Yes, the salvation of the whole world is a process from beginning to end, from revelation to belief to obedience to salvation. I believe this will occur for ALL mankind.  :HeartThrob:

  Yes James and Seth  you are right I do believe in the salvation of all  , its just not so  for all here and now ,
  I cannot  be on here as much as times past and am so sorry T bone you  percieved  that I was   at odds with you
  not at all   , just   trying to explain    the stance  with scriptures I agree with the scriptures 
as I know you do too  , its just how we  percive/see  the scriptures   and share  the views   from where we are at in  Spiritual growth   , we are all  living and learning or are  dying  trying   to understand   Gods plan for all of mankind  :Peace2:   
  I am glad you are here at Tent  , welcome !

[T-Bone]

JABCAT,

I REFERRED TO "THE LAST DAY" BY ERWIN ROACH IN REGARD TO "IT IS FINISHED" IN HIS BELIEF THAT IT WAS FINISHED BEFORE THE BEGINNING OF TIME .
I'M INCLINED TO AGREE WITH HIM.
AS FOR THE PROCESS OF SALVATION WITNESSED IN THE MANY SCRIPTURES PERSENTED IN THIS  THREAD, I HAVE NOT DISPUTED THEM AT ANY TIME AND AM IN AGREEMENT WITH THEM ( AND HAVE SAID SO IN MY RESPONSES) AS EXPLAINING THE PROCESS THAT IS INVOLVED AFTER THE SAVING WORK THAT JESUS ACCOMPLISHED ON THE CROSS.
IF I'M IN DISAGREEMENT OF ANYTHING IT WOULD BE THE INTERPRETATIONS MADE BY SOME ABOUT THESE SCRIPTURES.
IT IS MY BELIEF THAT HIS SAVING WORK IS FINAL AND ALL THAT'S LEFT IS FOR ALL TO BE DRAWN TO GOD IN DUE TIME .
ALL ARE SAVED AND ALL ARE TO BE SANCTIFIED( WHICH INVOLVES CHASTENING AND CORRECTION TO VARIOUS DEGREES FOR EVERYONE) EITHER NOW OR IN THE THE AGES TO COME UNTIL EVERY KNEE BOWS AND EVERY TONGUE CONFESSES THAT JESUS IS LORD.
THIS IS MY TAKE ON READING THE SCRIPTURES AND OTHER ARTICLES BY BIBLICAL MEN AND WOMEN .

SETH,

THE PROBLEM THAT WE ARE HAVING IS THAT YOU WANT A SCRIPTURAL "PROOF", IF YOU WILL, THAT WHEN JESUS SAID "IT IS FINISHED" HE MEANT THAT ALL ARE SAVED AT THAT MOMENT .
I DON'T HAVE ONE TO GIVE TO YOU.
JULIE TANG 84 SEEMED TO COME THE CLOSEST TO DOING THAT IN HER COMMENTS AND IT WOULD HAVE BEEN REDUNDANT FOR ME TO REPEAT IT OTHER THAN TO SAY THAT I CONCUR WITH HER OPINION FOR THE MOST PART.
ALL I HAVE IS MY UNDERSTANDING OF THE BODY OF SCRIPTURES FOUND IN THE BIBLE THAT TELLS ME THAT IT IS SO.
THAT IS OUR DILEMMA + THE GUIDELINES OF THIS WEBSITE WHICH I'VE SAID FROM THE GETGO I AM NOT GOOD AT BUT WILL TRY TO GET BETTER BUT I HOPE THAT WE CAN CONTINUE TO HAVE OUR DISCUSSIONS WITHOUT FEELING THAT WE MUST STAY IN LOCKSTEP WITH SAID GUIDELINES IN REGARDS TO SCRIPTURAL "PROOFS".
IF THAT IS GOING TO BE UNACCEPTABLE FROM HEREON OUT THEN MAYBE I SHOULD BOW OUT GRACEFULLY AND WISH ALL OF YOU THE BEST IN YOUR FAITH JOURNEY.

FRANKLY, I THOUGHT THAT WE HAD A PRETTY GOOD START TO THIS THREAD BUT IT SEEMS TO HAVE TAKEN ON A CONTENTIOUS TONE AND IF I AM THE CAUSE OF IT , I ASK YOUR FORGIVENESS BUT I HAVE FELT SOMEWHAT CONSTRICTED( AND CONFLICTED) BECAUSE OF SOME OF THE COMMENTS THAT HAVE BEEN MADE REGARDING MY RESPONSES.

MY PRAYER IS THAT WE CONTINUE IN THE SPIRIT OF LOVE, UNDERSTANDING AND RESPECT FROM HERE ON OUT.

[T-Bone]

THANK YOU ROSERED FOR YOU KIND RESPONSE.

SETH, I SEE WHERE YOU ARE COMING FROM BUT RESPECTFULLY DISAGREE.

JESUS HAS DONE THE SAVING WORK ONCE AND FOR ALL ON THE CROSS AND THE PROCESS FROM HERE ON OUT IS THAT OF BEING DRAWN BY GOD TO HIMSELF ( OF WHICH ALL WILL DO IN DUE TIME), THE SAVED COME TO THE REALIZATION THAT THEY ARE SAVED AND MOVE FROM DARKNESS TO LIGHT ( I.E. THEY REPENT, CHANGE THEIR MINDS, TURN TOWARD AND MOVE TOWARD GOD AND NOT AWAY FROM HIM ), CHRIST HAS BEGUN HIS WORK IN THEM AND WILL BRING IT TO COMPLETION THROUGH THE SANCTIFYING WORK OF HIS SPIRIT WITHIN THEM WHICH WILL INVOLVE CHASTENING AND CORRECTION IN VARYING DEGREES FOR EVERYONE FOR WE WILL ALL BE SALTED IN THE END AND EVENTUALLY IN THE FULLNESS OF TIME ALL WILL SUBMIT TO THE LORDSHIP OF CHRIST WHO WILL IN TURN SUBMIT TO THE FATHER WHO WILL BE EVERYTHING TO EVERYONE.

AFTER THAT ONLY GOD KNOWS BUT IT WILL BE WONDERFUL FOR SURE.

[Seth]

AS FOR THE PROCESS OF SALVATION WITNESSED IN THE MANY SCRIPTURES PERSENTED IN THIS  THREAD, I HAVE NOT DISPUTED THEM AT ANY TIME AND AM IN AGREEMENT WITH THEM ( AND HAVE SAID SO IN MY RESPONSES) AS EXPLAINING THE PROCESS THAT IS INVOLVED AFTER THE SAVING WORK THAT JESUS ACCOMPLISHED ON THE CROSS.
IF I'M IN DISAGREEMENT OF ANYTHING IT WOULD BE THE INTERPRETATIONS MADE BY SOME ABOUT THESE SCRIPTURES.
IT IS MY BELIEF THAT HIS SAVING WORK IS FINAL AND ALL THAT'S LEFT IS FOR ALL TO BE DRAWN TO GOD IN DUE TIME .

In the sense that Jesus purchased the inevitability of salvation for everyone, I think Romans 5 is clear on that, so you and I both agree. It may seem that the distinction between "reconciliation" and "salvation" is not important but I think Romans 5:10 makes such a thorough and important distinction that I stick with that. The reason I make this argument is not to fight with you, but because I want to share the truth with people who are suffering under ET and Annihilationism. If I try to do that by saying everyone is already saved, and they give me a "barrage" of scriptures showing otherwise, it makes it hard to give credible testimony to what I believe, if I cannot explain those scriptures.

Many ETers read through these posts and my purpose is to give as clear a testimony as possible, and sometimes that involves terminology. Reconciliation is a lesser thing than salvation, which is why the Bible says "having been reconciled by his death, how much MORE, having been reconciled will we be saved through his life." I need to be able to explain that, and I can.

[WhiteWings]

It is finished is a big word play (which of course doesn't rule out other interpretations)

Bride = kallâh = כּלּה = Pronounced as: kal-law
Bread = Challah = חלה = Pronounced as: khaw-law
Finished = Kalah = כלה = Pronounced as: kaw-law
The above words are pronounced quite similar.

The Shabbat in Jewish tradition is compared to a bride. Just as the veil of the bride is removed after the blessings have been recited, so are the Challah "unveiled" after the blessing is recited and the bread is about to be cut. The Challah is three breads braided into a lover's embrace of the couple with God in their relationship. It also represents the first three covenants that merge into one as the ultimate covenant: marriage. Info. 

John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished ....
"It is finished" in Hebrew can be seen a play on word to reference to a wedding. He paid the Mohar ,bride's price.
"It is finished" in Greek often is said be a shorthand form of "tetelestai" which was written on legal documents to show a debt was fully paid. While some totally disagree with John 19:30 referencing to that word many assume Jesus was saying He paid our debts of sin on the cross. I agree with that but think there is a second meaning. It was also His payment of the Mohar the bride's price or bride's ransom.

[jbertonbounds]

As for the question " 'IT IS FINISHED' -WHAT DID JESUS MEAN BY SAYING THAT?"

IMO the following:

Jesus had a long row to hoe when he entered the world through Mary's womb.
He had to grow up, presumably resisting temptations all along the way.
He had to face much persecution during his ministry.
He had to keep on with his ministry right down to it's horrible end - crucifixion by the Romans!

But to answer the question, we must look at what was accomplished.
Divine law requires sacrifice for sin.
Jesus became the sacrifice for the corporate sin of the world.
When it was time for him to die, HIS WORK OF BECOMING OUR SACRIFICE WAS FINISHED.

So then all that was left for humans was judgment.
The overcomers are judged in this life, the believing non-overcomers and the unbelievers are judged later at the Great White Throne.
When Satan's accusations fly, Jesus will say,
"Yes, they are guilty as charged. 
But I am their kinsman, and by divine law, I have the right to redeem them. 
I have already paid the price. 
They belong to me."


Then the believers will be judged and receive their reward (the overcomers have already been judged and received their great rewards), and the unbelievers will be judged, purified, and brought home later.

:2c:

[Seth]

Then the believers will be judged and receive their reward (the overcomers have already been judged and received their great rewards), and the unbelievers will be judged, purified, and brought home later.

:2c:

:iagree:

And for the unbelievers, the Spirit and the Bride will say "come all that are athirst and drink freely of the water of life." There are none who are thirsty who will not heed those words.

Romans 8
18 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19 For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.

And that, my friends, is worth a banana dance....  :banana:

[JulieTang84]

I know Seth and rosie, and I'll venture to say that in no way do I believe they deny that on the Day of the Lord all will be fully reconciled to God.  It's just more so that it occurs in stages, i.e., some now (few), the rest "at His appearing".   

Yes, the salvation of the whole world is a process from beginning to end, from revelation to belief to obedience to salvation. I believe this will occur for ALL mankind.  :HeartThrob:

Seth, I believe we are on different pages here. T-Bone and I are talking of Spiritual salvation, not Physical, for the two cannot be compared.

Jesus Christ is Spirit who is:
   
Rev 22:13
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

The Beginning and the END. Not and end to come.
   
1Pe 1:20
He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.

You see, to place Father and Christ Jesus in our time is to negate who they and what they really are. Time cannot contain them, neither can the universe, for all is within them; there is nothing without.

The salvation of all is complete. If we were to live another 9,999,999,999,999,999,999,999 yrs, there would still be nothing new under the Sun.
   
Ecc 1:9
What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun.

The only ones who are NOT saved are the ones whom believe they are not (which includes the ones whom say they are but live OTHERWISE)

Salvation is a renewal of the heart, one becomes a new person and lives a new life because the former things will have passed away. This is NOT mere lip service, it is the light of all truth and Love taking precedence over carnality. For some, I am sure the change will be complete in an instant, for others (like myself) the process will take much longer.

One last thing: Saved from what? I mean and I believe so does T-Bone; that all are saved from DEATH and total torture in fire forever. If you are meaning first and second resurrections, I am certainly not  :friendstu:

Even so this is complete also, the end is written even though we are not there yet on this earth.

Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

[Seth]

You see, to place Father and Christ Jesus in our time is to negate who they and what they really are. Time cannot contain them, neither can the universe, for all is within them; there is nothing without.

Well, I have a different view on time and timelessness, but I don't want to digress. I acknowledged to T-Bone that if what he means is that the inevitability of all being saved is what Christ purchased on the Cross, then I agree. I simply filter it through terminology and phraseology that the Apostles actually use. No Apostle says that everyone is already saved, so I refrain from such phraseology myself even if I agree on the inevitability.

The only ones who are NOT saved are the ones whom believe they are not (which includes the ones whom say they are but live OTHERWISE)

Again, I don't see the Apostles speaking in terms like this. They don't say that everyone needs to realize they are already saved. And it seems that you do not either because you say:

"Salvation is a renewal of the heart, one becomes a new person and lives a new life because the former things will have passed away. This is NOT mere lip service, it is the light of all truth and Love taking precedence over carnality. For some, I am sure the change will be complete in an instant, for others (like myself) the process will take much longer."

Right. You are looking FORWARD to all being saved. So NOT all are saved presently because NOT all are renewed presently. Exactly my point, and I believe the scriptures testify to it.

One last thing: Saved from what? I mean and I believe so does T-Bone; that all are saved from DEATH and total torture in fire forever. If you are meaning first and second resurrections, I am certainly not  :friendstu:

A great and VERY important question. And, I thought I had answered it very thoroughly a few posts back. Please take a look.  :HeartThrob:

[JulieTang84]

Right. You are looking FORWARD to all being saved. So NOT all are saved presently because NOT all are renewed presently. Exactly my point, and I believe the scriptures testify to it.

One last thing: Saved from what? I mean and I believe so does T-Bone; that all are saved from DEATH and total torture in fire forever. If you are meaning first and second resurrections, I am certainly not  :friendstu:

A great and VERY important question. And, I thought I had answered it very thoroughly a few posts back. Please take a look.  :HeartThrob:

I hope we both agree that there is no "Presently" in Father. He just is. Yes, not all are "saved" in a literal sense, because we are literally bound by the constraints of time. Thankfully Father is not. We cannot compare what is to what is to come, for what is to come has been since before creation. This is 
sometimes a difficult concept to grasp as means seeing Father at His Level, rather than bringing Him down to ours.


I hope you see and fully realize how this ties in with Scripture. Father's ways are so much higher than our ways as is His thoughts so much higher than ours also. How can His brilliance and majesty be comprehended? It simply cannot, but to limit it in any manner is to mold Father to our understanding.


Therefore, have realized this, the world is not the same world it was. Nothing is the same. A very dear friend once said that through Spirit our past can be rewritten. This was questioned for sure, until Father opened my eyes to the truth. Most everything we hold as true (our past experiences for example) are but an illusion, tainted by any hurts, anger or shame (etc.) Yet when through the Spirit such things are let go and the light of truth begins to shine, more often than not the memory COMPLETELY changes and past is rewritten.


As amazing as this is, we can also rewrite our own future. We know this with the constant reminders like: "Wow, I can't believe I didn't get angry over that!"


When one can look back over the years at the mistakes made and see nothing but a unsure child wandering around doing the best that they could, one will see the child they are still. Perhaps this is what Jesus meant when he said we must become as children.


I will certainly look at what you wrote earlier. Clearly I had not done so before commenting.


Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

[Seth]

I hope we both agree that there is no "Presently" in Father. He just is.

On the other hand,

Revelation 1:8
"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."

Yes, not all are "saved" in a literal sense, because we are literally bound by the constraints of time. Thankfully Father is not. We cannot compare what is to what is to come, for what is to come has been since before creation. This is  sometimes a difficult concept to grasp as means seeing Father at His Level, rather than bringing Him down to ours.

To be honest, I don't really see the Apostles preaching from the above perspective. Not to say that the "I AM" is easily understood. Just saying that, regarding the subject of salvation, I simply don't see the Apostles approaching it from the perspective of timelessness. Not that it's not an interesting thought, but that I don't see it wrapped up in their Gospel message. Rather, every time they broach the subject they constrict the salvation of all mankind to A HOPE which is to come that we patiently wait for (Romans 8) and never talk about the idea that it already is. At least, in terms of their various treatise on salvation, I always see them talking about a future hope and a present process, and the bulk of their message does read like that.

Therefore, it is good that we are clarifying all this with eachother.  :HeartThrob:

I will certainly look at what you wrote earlier. Clearly I had not done so before commenting.

I think it will clarify alot of what I am saying. In no way to I believe Hitler was saved from his sin and trespasses as he was murdering men women and children. I believe that would completely undermine what I believe the scripture says about salvation from sin. I do have a HOPE for that salvation of all, that ALL creation will be delivered from bondage, but I don't say that Hitler was saved, when the word for saved is linked to "healed." Those who are healed walk in the light.

Regarding the method or manner in which God says man is saved, I believe the scripture says that it is not a revelation that all are already saved which does the saving work. It is the active indwelling of the Holy Spirit through belief in Christ's gospel that brings salvation from carnality to the carnal mind.

[JulieTang84]

Just to keep a very enlightening discussion alive.......
   
Rom 6:6
For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin—

Rom 6:10,11
The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God. In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

Paul hits this out of the ball park. Jesus died to sin for once and for all. He does not need to die again. Yet he lives to Father, Paul told us to count ourselves dead to sin and alive to Father in Christ Jesus.

As a footnote: Of course there are many millions whom are blind to the truth by Fathers hand. These are still saved by all that Jesus has done, the weight of sin is no longer on the shoulders of any. They have little weight, because just like Eve in the garden, they are blind to the truth.

Gal 2:20
I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

We should both agree on this  :HeartThrob:
   
2Cr 5:14
For Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died.

Yep, Jesus died for ALL.   :dsunny:

2Cr 5:15
And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.

Is there any words in the Scripture that bring such joy and well-being? These are in my mind Father saying, come rest your weary selves in me.  :cloud9:

Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

   

[Seth]

Just to keep a very enlightening discussion alive.......
   
Rom 6:6
For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin—

Rom 6:10,11
The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God. In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

Paul hits this out of the ball park. Jesus died to sin for once and for all. He does not need to die again. Yet he lives to Father, Paul told us to count ourselves dead to sin and alive to Father in Christ Jesus.

If you look at the entire chapter of Romans 6, he is saying that the death of Christ is being realized DAILY for his saints to actively DIE to sin.

As a footnote: Of course there are many millions whom are blind to the truth by Fathers hand. These are still saved by all that Jesus has done

Yet there is no scriptural proof of that. There is only scriptural proof that Jesus reconciled the world, not that the world has already been saved.

Acts 3
19Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 20And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

These are all time words, not timeless words.

[Seth]

Romans 6
1 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7 because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.

This does not happen through a realization of all mankind already saved. It happens through BAPTISM of the believer...

Luke 3
John answered them all, "I baptize you with water. But one who is more powerful than I will come, the straps of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

You can reckon yourselves dead to sin, by BECOMING dead to sin, reckon that which is TRUE, not that which is FALSE. Paul did not reckon anyone dead to sin who was NOT baptized into Christ.

Galatians 3
26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


Again, nothing here about the idea that all mankind is already saved in a timeless state...  :dontknow:

[marie glen]

JUST WHAT DOES IT MEANT TO BE "SAVED"?
THIS CURRENT EXCHANGE WOULD GO A LONG WAY IN ANSWERING THAT.

Here is what I think it means to be saved. I will explain through two scriptures, although there are MANY more.

Matthew 1:20-21
An angel from the Lord came to (Joseph) in a dream. The angel said, "Joseph, the baby that Mary will have is from the Holy Spirit. Go ahead and marry her. Then after her baby is born, name him Jesus, because he will save (sozo - heal) his people from (Greek apo - to separate from) their SIN."

Here is what you hear from all manner of denominations and views on what man is saved from:

• Hell
• Annihilation
• 70AD
• punishment for sin
• the second resurrection
• the second death

However, the angel doesn't mention anything like that. The scripture literally says he shall: "save his people FROM their sin."

First, God peace with man through Christ's death
Then, Christ brings man's salvation from sin through his LIFE.

Here is how:

Ephesians 2:1-10
And you hath he quickened (brought to life), who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us.

Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us (brought us to life) together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

For we are HIS workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


That is how man is saved by Christ's LIFE, having been already reconciled: by being "quickened together" being joined together with Christ unto a renewal of the mind, so that we cease: "walking in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind"

We are not saved by OUR works, but by the work of Christ.

I have more info here in case you are interested: Judgment of the World by the Cross

That was very good, brother Seth..

to my mind, another way of saying it, or the way I find myself thinking of it.. (and of course I'm very prone to repeating myself :laughing7: ) is that God is Life, and also Perfection, thus to differ with God's will/Truth in any tiny way is to become imperfect, the very opposite of life.

It's my belief, life as we presently know it, is an unavoidable journey and LeSSon.. unavoidable if there's to be thinking ability that is.. for thinking ability includes with it, eventually.. the ability to make choices (not 'free-will' by a long shot but still the ability to choose, this is backed up I believe by the verse about the fallen angels having left their last estate/place.. and now they are in 'chains' awaiting judgment, or chains of judgment in that im-perfection cannot, cannot, reverse its course and make itself perfect, what with being, well, imperfect/sinners/flawed.)

I'm learning to be a little more patient with so many believers view that this is all somehow some flaw.. some mistake.. which God made. Er, excuse me? :LH: somehow the opposer was able to trick Him.. ah, yah right! that's crazy thinking!! to me..

So what's the other option? of course.. (imo) is God's all wise, knowing and all powerful intent.

I find myself having to suppose that before ever beginning the work of creating, the Father could see alll possibilities stretched out before his sight.. and then has done aLL things in order to bring about the absolute best of all possible 'end' results.

And because He is perfect, the 'end' result can onLy be, not only perfect, but the best of all possibilities. (Surely?)

I know I'm not using scripture references.. this is all from the answers i recieved almost 20 years ago when my son asked me two questions, which I answered, but not to my satisfaction at all.. so i prayed for better understanding.. and almost immediately, like bam! bam! bam! these answers came to me. (And in the 20 years since, imo, I have found the Bible supports it very well.)

My sons questions were "why was the tree of knowing good and evil in the garden?" and "isn't it great we get to be an ant farm?"

The whole thing ...(we are not an ant farm is the pandora's box, when God endowed thinking ability a whole new world, or tree, of possibilities, 'came to be'. Also now all suffer, some even horribly, but God, being Life, suffers, lives through and experiences aLL sufferings which ever occur!! Why would He put Himself through all that? Perhaps because He's not creating an ant farm or robots, but a family of many beautiful branches, and an eternally un-breakable paradise, unbreakable, because the full understanding of good from evil / life form death /  true from untrue, will be deeeeply engraved upon every heart, mind and psyche.. The knowing that to walk away from God/Life cannot be done, as it would be {w/o rescue/redemption} to merely self destruct in a puff of dust and smoke (the all important lesson of the Bk of Rev)

The whole thing (bam, bam, bam, that is) ended with a question coming to my mind, when I was in prayer, "why, did God wait SO loong, and only create the universe and man and woman, not only aFter the first bound to occur rebel thought occurred, but after it had matured into outright revolt, sedition and trickery? Didn't God know.. what would happen? - I guess it was a twofold question..

God bless, sorry to be so long winded.. it's a flaw of mine..

[dajomaco]

My opinion of It is finished is
God is finished with any and all dealings concerning the flesh.
The flesh is none excitant.


Now six stone water jars had been set there for Jewish purification. Each contained 20 or 30 gallons.[c]
7 "Fill the jars with water," Jesus told them. So they filled them to the brim. 8 Then He said to them, "Now draw some out and take it to the chief servant."[d] And they did.
9 When the chief servant tasted the water (after it had become wine), he did not know where it came from—[i]though the servants who had drawn the water knew. [/i] He called the groom 10 and told him, "[i]Everyone sets out the fine wine first, then, after people have drunk freely,[/i] the inferior. But you have kept the fine wine until now."

After this, when Jesus knew that everything was now accomplished that the Scripture might be fulfilled, He said, "I'm thirsty!" 29 A jar full of sour wine was sitting there; so they fixed a sponge full of sour wine on hyssop[h] and held it up to His mouth.
30 When Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "[i]It is finished[/i]!" Then bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.



And Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into Your hands I entrust My spirit."[q] Saying this, He breathed His last.

When it was noon,[h] darkness came over the whole land until three in the afternoon.[j] 34 And at three[k] Jesus cried out with a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lemá[l] sabachtháni?" which is translated, "[i]My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me[/i]?"[m]
At that time Jesus was flesh hanging on the Cross 35 When some of those standing there heard this, they said, "Look, He's calling for Elijah!" 36 Someone ran and filled a sponge with sour wine, fixed it on a reed, offered Him a drink, and said, "Let's see if Elijah comes to take Him down!"
37 But Jesus let out a loud cry and breathed His last. 38 Then the curtain of the sanctuary[n] was split in two from top to bottom. 39 When the centurion, who was standing opposite Him, saw the way He

• breathed His last, he said, "This man really was God's Son!"[p]
  From noon until three in the afternoon darkness came over the whole land.[t] 46 About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out with a loud voice, "Elí, Elí, lemá sabachtháni?" that is, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken[v] Me?"[w]
  
  darkness came over the whole land.[t] 46 About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out with a loud voice, "Elí, Elí, lemá sabachtháni?" that is, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken[v] Me?"[w] Jesus see's that he is made flesh.bThus stopping the accusations of satan from rising up to God.47 [/b] When some of those standing there heard this, they said, "He's calling for Elijah!"
  48 Immediately one of them ran and got a sponge, filled it with sour wine, fixed it on a reed, and offered Him a drink. 49 But the rest said, "Let's see if Elijah comes to save Him!"[/color]
  
  This is how I see it today.

[Seth]

I'm learning to be a little more patient with so many believers view that this is all somehow some flaw.. some mistake.. which God made. Er, excuse me? :LH: somehow the opposer was able to trick Him.. ah, yah right! that's crazy thinking!! to me..

:laughing7:

[JulieTang84]

Seth, please know that I have ABSOLUTELY no disagreement with anything you state!!!!!! :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

Would you please just take a deep breath and follow along for just a minute.

There is the physical and the spiritual. We live in the physical but are told to worship in Spirit.

Father is outside of time as is Christ His Son. We are not. If all of us were truly physically saved, would we not all be walking on water? I believe so and more. I still sink and venture, you do to  :Chinscratch:


There are very few who understand that there sins are forgiven, yet it is more than knowledge. Because, knowing and still sinning is not enough. It is Father that changes hearts, thoughts and desires. Those whom he has called to himself, live through Christ, because of Christ. There is no doubt that very few trust Father enough to give themselves so away that they cease to be. As Paul said, the old man has died.


But and I mean BUT, if you believe that the price Jesus paid is NOT SUFFICIENT to reconcile and to bring everyone (even Hitler) to himself, then there is not a lot I can say to change your mind. (Ido not   think you do) If you think that Father and Christ are sitting in Heaven twiddling there spiritual thumbs just waiting for things to transpire, then we disagree on this also. This would mean that Father will not be complete until the last piece is accounted for. I believe that Father has no potentiality. He simply cannot wait, He simply is. So with this, comes the fact that there is no Before, Is or To Come. He is before everything, Is part of everything and he cannot come to any place he is not already.


Therefore His state is not contingent on anything happening, because nothing has the potentiality to happen. The life we live, the years we enjoy are so real to us, but it is like every life of every person is a interrelated movie script, written, directed, produced and acted that has always been.


So what I am saying is that no matter where we are, it is not where Father is. All that we know is not even so yesterday for Father, for there is no anything outside of him. We are saved, cleansed and wise beyond comprehension, yet in our dimensional plane we are totally unaware of it. There is much that needs to happen before we can join Father and Christ, but please know that it HAS already happened. 


I agree with all the Scriptures and all your words, but they pertain to this physical plane. Of course they were written for us, here and now and in NO WAY am I detracting from any of them. I commend you for sticking to your understanding and there is absolutely nothing but respect and love for you flowing through these finger tips.  :HeartThrob:


So, I will concede that all of this that I have written is of little value to any without the eyes to see. Sadly, neither is much of anything that is sound Scriptural UR, for it cannot be understood until Father grants understanding.


I hope this helps,
Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

[Seth]

Would you please just take a deep breath and follow along for just a minute.

Julie, why do you think I need to take a deep breath? Were you with me when I wrote my posts? It seems that you are assuming my state of mind.  :Chinscratch:

But and I mean BUT, if you believe that the price Jesus paid is NOT SUFFICIENT to reconcile and to bring everyone (even Hitler) to himself, then there is not a lot I can say to change your mind.

Julie, you have admitted to me that you haven't thoroughly read my posts before responding, which leads me to believe that you are the one who needs to take the breath (I mean that in good humor)

Didn't I distinguish between "reconciliation" and "salvation?" You are speaking as though I have not made the distinction...

So with this, comes the fact that there is no Before, Is or To Come. He is before everything, Is part of everything and he cannot come to any place he is not already.

But the Bible does say he "is, was and is to come." That's baffling because you told me you have "absolutely no disagreement." But you just said "there IS NO before, is or is to come." And I showed from scripture that indeed there is... :doh:

I know you believe in the timeless state etc. But you seem to be denying the state of TIME when you say "there IS no before, is or to come."

If you believe in a timeless state, don't you also believe in a TIME state where Jesus "is, was and is to come" since those are scriptural declarations? It sounds like you are taking one, then denying the other by the above statement.

We are saved, cleansed and wise beyond comprehension, yet in our dimensional plane we are totally unaware of it. There is much that needs to happen before we can join Father and Christ, but please know that it HAS already happened. 

I know you believe this Julie, but again, I don't see the Apostles teaching from this perspective of timelessness....like, ever. So my question to you is, why would I teach in a manner inconsistent with the Apostles?

2 Timothy 1:13
Hold fast the form of sound words, which THOU hast heard of ME, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

Paul wanted Timothy to hold fast to the pattern of sound words/teaching that he got from Paul. Paul never spoke about salvation from a timeless perspective the way you do. He just didn't do it. So why would Timothy? Why would I? Why would anybody?

A discussion on timelessness is interesting. But, as a matter of doctrine on salvation, it never enters into the equation in their teaching. By all means, believe what you like. But it is one thing to say that God needs to open my eyes to YOUR truth. But it's quite another thing for you to ESTABLISH your truth by way of HIS Apostles. I don't think you can do that, and I mean that with all due respect.  :HeartThrob:

But I am not commanded by scripture to teach Julie doctrine. I am commanded to teach Apostle Paul doctrine along with the rest of the Apostles. So, if the timeless-state approach to salvation is not systematically taught by them, I too see no need to subscribe to it.

[JulieTang84]

No problem whatsoever bro Seth.  :HeartThrob:

Jesus Christ is the "Is, Was and Is to Come" Not Father. This is consistent with Jesus Christ being the beginning and the end. the first and the last.

Please know that I did skim through a lot of the posts and if said something and i missed it, it is my mistake and not yours. I also agree with you that the apostles did not teach of what I wrote and therefore, on face value it might appear that it has little value. I am certainly not preaching a new truth as nothing that I said (I hope) takes away from the Scriptures. You are steadfast in our understanding, persistent and consistent. This is a wonderful thing and I commend you for it.  :HeartThrob:

I grew up with so called wise learned men telling me who Father was and what He was. Their God was never the Father of my heart. Man's biggest mistake is to try to bring Father to their level.

Isa 55:8
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD.

How is it possible that all that is; our known universe as yet unbounded cannot contain Father? How is it that Father knows every hair on every head. How is it that Father knows every cell, every atom , every nuclei and every sub atomic particle? How indeed? Father is so far beyond comprehension that we can only marvel how someone whom knows so much, knows each of us personally; loving us as more utterly completely than any concept of love we could imagine. Father is Love, Love has no bounds or vice.

I think it important to release any boundaries or constraints that our understanding may impose. Who or what is this God in which we chose to believe? Is this not fundamental to the teaching of UR?

All this just a piece of the puzzle, Scripture is just as important, and as stated before, your understanding is surely Spirit given.

I do not believe I have offended you, but even so, I apologize.  :gimmefive:

Much Love, Julie :HeartThrob:

[Seth]

No worries, you didn't offend me at all. :HeartThrob:

[T-Bone]

JULIE/SETH:

I GROW IN THE GRACE AND THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE LORD DAILY , LATELY AND IN PART , BECAUSE OF YOUR HEALTHY AND SPIRITED DISCOURSE.

GOD BLESS YOU BOTH.

[T-Bone]

I WAS THINKING THAT IT MIGHT BE TIME FOR A LTIILE CHURCH HUMOR, SO HEAR GOES.

A LITTLE BOY AND HIS PARENTS WENT TO SUNDAY SCHOOL AND CHURCH ONE DAY AND THE LITTLE BOY HEARD THE STORY OF HOW GOD TOOK ONE OF ADAMS RIBS WHILE HE WAS SLEEPING AND MADE EVE OUT OF IT.

HE PONDERED THAT FOR AWHILE AND SAID "OK . SO THAT'S WHERE WOMEN CAME FROM".

NOT THINKING TOO MUCH ABOUT THAT ANY MORE , THEY RETURNED HOME FROM CHURCH AND SAT DOWN FOR THEIR SUNDAY MEAL.  WHEN THEY HAD FINISHED, HE WAS TOLD BY HIS PARENTS TO GO LIE DOWN FOR A NAP WHICH HE DUTYFULLY OBEYED AND DID.

AFTER A LITTLE WHILE HE WOKE UP WITH A STOMACH ACHE AND RAN INTO THE LIVING ROOM WHERE HIS MOM AND DAD WERE AND COMPLAINED THAT HIS SIDE HURT AND SAID:

"I THINK I'M HAVING A WIFE!"

[Seth]

 :laughing7: