Israelite? or Non-Israelite?

[jbertonbounds]

No problem. :thumbsup:

[Seth]

There is no such thing as a lost tribe  of Israel.

The ten tribes of the northern kingdom did not simply go "poof" when the Assyrians carried them off.  In the same manner, the Jews who stayed behind in Mesopotamia did not go "poof" after the time of Ezra and Nehemiah.  They went on and on, had children, etc, and the ancient tribes became nations with other names.  Theology is not the only thing - it must align with reality.

Other than saying that, I don't care to get involved in the debate.

The ten tribes of the Northern kingdom went poof in being "counted for the seed." Not poof in being Jews according to the flesh. But the flesh counts for nothing.

Only one of these can be true:

1) All Israel IS Israel
2) NOT all Israel is Israel

[WhiteWings]

Just wondering WhiteWings. What does Christ's genealogy tell you about flesh vs. spirit. What made Christ the begotten of God? Man's efforts or God's choice?

I highly doubt Titus was claiming (some of) the genealogies found in the Bible are useless junk.
The physical is a pattern of the spiritual. Who rejects the physical (patterns) is opening the way to fantasy spiritual doctrines.

[Seth]

Just wondering WhiteWings. What does Christ's genealogy tell you about flesh vs. spirit. What made Christ the begotten of God? Man's efforts or God's choice?

I highly doubt Titus was claiming (some of) the genealogies found in the Bible are useless junk.
The physical is a pattern of the spiritual. Who rejects the physical (patterns) is opening the way to fantasy spiritual doctrines.

WhiteWings, I love you. But you have managed to pack two big strawmen into three sentences. And then, didn't answer my question.

[lomarah]

Just wondering WhiteWings. What does Christ's genealogy tell you about flesh vs. spirit. What made Christ the begotten of God? Man's efforts or God's choice?

I highly doubt Titus was claiming (some of) the genealogies found in the Bible are useless junk.
The physical is a pattern of the spiritual. Who rejects the physical (patterns) is opening the way to fantasy spiritual doctrines.

Ohhhh I liked this word, thank you Sir WhiteWings!

[WhiteWings]

Just wondering WhiteWings. What does Christ's genealogy tell you about flesh vs. spirit. What made Christ the begotten of God? Man's efforts or God's choice?

I highly doubt Titus was claiming (some of) the genealogies found in the Bible are useless junk.
The physical is a pattern of the spiritual. Who rejects the physical (patterns) is opening the way to fantasy spiritual doctrines.

WhiteWings, I love you. But you have managed to pack two big strawmen into three sentences. And then, didn't answer my question.

I'll try again....
The reason that there are many extensive genealogies in the Bible must mean they have some purpose. Those genealogies aren't manmade.

What does Christ's genealogy tell you about flesh vs. spirit.

I have no clue. No that doesn't prove the genealogies have no value; it only proves  don't know. There are many fleshly things that proint to something else/bigger. So do genealogies is my belief.

What made Christ the begotten of God? Man's efforts or God's choice?

Does a genealogie change anything about that fact?

[Seth]

WhiteWings I never said not to study the genealogies. I had already clarified my meaning. Christ's genealogy shows that Israel is a matter of God's choosing, having nothing to do with DNA or circumcision. My point goes back to the OP

"In general, a Jew is one who follows the religion of Judaism.  An Israeli is one who is a citizen of modern Israel, the political entity, the modern nation.  An Israelite is one who is descended from the biblical nation of Israel.  So then who is an Iraelite?  Who is a non-Israelite?  Could it be you?  Could it be me?  Could DNA studies eventually help to answer some of these questions?"

The answer to that last question is: no. DNA has no part in answering that question. And that is where the Titus verse comes in.

I am not trying to be mean, but none of the above definitions are valid anymore, and it's been that way for the last 2,000 years. So how can we discuss this issue without acknowledging what the Bible says a Jew is? Trying to study genealogy (ie lineage according to the flesh) to find out who the true Israel is, will indeed be fruitless. We have already been told who they are and who they are not.  :dunno: