Israelite? or Non-Israelite?

[jbertonbounds]

History tells us that, after the kingdom was divided, the southern kingdom (Judah) was taken captive to Babylon, then later the northern kingdom (Israel) was taken captive to Assyria.  In general, Judah was eventually allowed to return to their homeland.  However, Israel never returned, but rather was dispersed, and became known as the lost tribes of Israel.  Many historians now believe that these "lost" Israelites migrated mostly in a northerly and westerly direction into Europe, among other places, eventually becoming assimilated into the population.  Later many peoples from all over Europe, among other places, migrated to North America.

If this historical theory is correct, then from the standpoint of Israelite heredity, many North Americans and Europeans must surely be descended, at least in part, from the "lost tribes of Israel."  Many people use the terms "Jewish," "Israeli," and "Israelite" interchangeably.  They don't mean the same thing.  In general, a Jew is one who follows the religion of Judaism.  An Israeli is one who is a citizen of modern Israel, the political entity, the modern nation.  An Israelite is one who is descended from the biblical nation of Israel.  So then who is an Iraelite?  Who is a non-Israelite?  Could it be you?  Could it be me?  Could DNA studies eventually help to answer some of these questions?

Admittedly, my knowledge of this subject is limited.  Does anyone have more insight or information on this subject?  I would love to learn more about it.

[Seth]

My thought on it is that since the flesh profits nothing, it doesn't matter about DNA at all. A Jew is not outwardly, according to the circumcision flesh, but inwardly according to the circumcision of the heart by the Spirit. A Jew was not just a matter of DNA. It was a matter of circumcision on the 8th day. Without that, you could not be accepted.

Those who live by faith are the Israel of God. The flesh is good for absolutely nothing.

[Seth]

BTW, in case anyone might be interested, I do have a writing on it: Possessing the Holy Land, the Divine City

[Lazarus Short]

The apostle Paul states that there is now neither Jew nor Greek, and actually many Greeks were Israelites.  The Spartans are called brethren in the books of the Maccabees, for they were of Jewish descent.  The flesh may profit nothing, but I observe in the grand sweep of history (His Story) that the Israel-descendent tribes which came into Europe and became Christian, did so more readily than the non-Israel peoples around them.  For instance, the Druidic Britons waited for a Savior they called "Yesu," so when the first followers of Jesus arrived just a few years after the death of Jesus, the names clicked.  In short order, Britain became Christian (centuries before the arrival of Augustine), and Druidism formally merged with British Christianity.

[Seth]

Paul is very clear: A Jew is one who has been circumcised in the heart BY THE SPIRIT. Christians today still simply will not accept that.

Anyone who has the Spirit therefore becomes neither Jew or Greek, because they are one man, one descendant of Israel: Jesus Christ.

Exodus 4:22
Then say to Pharaoh, 'This is what the LORD says: Israel is my firstborn son

Anyone who is in the Son is in Israel, but not all Israel is Israel. Those who reject Christ are not Israel because they are outside Israel.

Romans 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

[Seth]

By the work of the Holy Spirit ALL the tribes of Israel are united into ONE MAN, and NONE are lost, and NONE are separated from eachother according to the flesh. We need not seek after things which matter not to God.

Titus 3:9
but shun foolish questionings, and genealogies (...hello?...), and strifes, and fightings about law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

And what do we do? Seek after questionings on genealogies, even after we are told the flesh profits nothing.  :doh:

[jbertonbounds]

By the work of the Holy Spirit ALL the tribes of Israel are united into ONE MAN, and NONE are lost, and NONE are separated from eachother according to the flesh. We need not seek after things which matter not to God.

Titus 3:9
but shun foolish questionings, and genealogies (...hello?...), and strifes, and fightings about law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

And what do we do? Seek after questionings on genealogies, even after we are told the flesh profits nothing.  :doh:

The bible is full of genealogies and references to them, especially in the OT.
Even in the NT the bibles talks about Jesus' genealogy:
HERE: Matthew 1:1 - "The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham."
AND HERE: Luke 3:23 - "Jesus, when he began his ministry, was about thirty years of age, being the son (as was supposed) of Joseph, the son of Heli, the son of Matthat, the son of Levi, the son of Melchi, the son of Jannai, the son of..."

There is nothing wrong with genealogy, or discussing genealogy or history, especially biblical genealogy and history.  Biblical genealogy and history help us understand the scriptures better.  But for the recipients of Paul's letter to Titus, genealogy was a matter of personal pride, like it mattered from whom they were descended.  That is why genealogy is spoken of in a negative light in Titus 3:9 - "But avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless."  Paul was not saying to have nothing to do with genealogy in itself.  He was saying to avoid controversy.  Seeking after genealogies in an attempt to profit the flesh (as referred to in Titus 3:9) has nothing whatsoever to do with my opening post.

To study where the lost tribes of Israel went or what cultures they were assimilated into is not genealogy anyway.  It is natural to ponder such things, study them, and gain a greater insight into the fate of biblical Israel.  Such studies are by no means foolish or meaningless.

I agree with you when you talk about spiritual Israel - those who belong to Jesus.  But from my OP, I believe it is clear that I am talking about the Israel of bible times that was taken captive and then dispersed across the globe - physical Israel, not spiritual Israel.

[Seth]

I never said not to consider genealogy. I am saying that if we do so, do it under the banner in which Paul defines a Jew. If we go searching for the "lost tribes" as though searching for flesh like it were buried treasure, we do so by not acknowledging what a Jew actually is according to the Spirit and what it is NOT. If we do that, we will be into that which is unprofitable and worthless.

Being a Jew was not simply a matter of genealogy

Gen 7:14
And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised , that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

The new High Priest brought a new covenant and a new circumcision. Anything that falls outside the new circumcision covenant is cut off from God's people and is not a Jew at all.

Those who DO have the Spirit are living within the only Israelite that matters: Jesus Christ. There are no lost tribes of Israel.

But for the recipients of Paul's letter to Titus, genealogy was a matter of personal pride, like it mattered from whom they were descended.

Exactly. It doesn't matter. That's why Paul told them not to engage in talk like that, because the flesh profits nothing. Who is descended from who? It simply doesn't matter.

[jbertonbounds]

You don't get it.  I am not talking about spiritual Israel.  I am talking about the physical tribes of Israel of bibles times.

You are talking about spiritual Israel, believers, Jesus' followers.  And I agree with what you are saying.  But that is not what I am referring to here.

You may be of the opinion that it is foolish to study such things, but I do not interpret any scripture as saying that such study is foolish.  I strongly disagree with your claim that such study is foolish based upon Titus 3:9!

[WhiteWings]

History tells us that, after the kingdom was divided, the southern kingdom (Judah) was taken captive to Babylon, then later the northern kingdom (Israel) was taken captive to Assyria.  In general, Judah was eventually allowed to return to their homeland.  However, Israel never returned, but rather was dispersed, and became known as the lost tribes of Israel.  Many historians now believe that these "lost" Israelites migrated mostly in a northerly and westerly direction into Europe, among other places, eventually becoming assimilated into the population.  Later many peoples from all over Europe, among other places, migrated to North America.

The native Americans seem to have lots of words and ways that can be linked to ancient Isreal. Modern linguists even are more and more convinced Hebrew is the mother of all languages (Babel?)
Often it's taught Columbus did discover America. He did but but long before him the vikings and long before them.... yep the Jews. Somewhere in the USA there is cave with ancient Hebrew writing.

[Lazarus Short]

History tells us that, after the kingdom was divided, the southern kingdom (Judah) was taken captive to Babylon, then later the northern kingdom (Israel) was taken captive to Assyria.  In general, Judah was eventually allowed to return to their homeland.  However, Israel never returned, but rather was dispersed, and became known as the lost tribes of Israel.  Many historians now believe that these "lost" Israelites migrated mostly in a northerly and westerly direction into Europe, among other places, eventually becoming assimilated into the population.  Later many peoples from all over Europe, among other places, migrated to North America.

If this historical theory is correct, then from the standpoint of Israelite heredity, many North Americans and Europeans must surely be descended, at least in part, from the "lost tribes of Israel."  Many people use the terms "Jewish," "Israeli," and "Israelite" interchangeably.  They don't mean the same thing.  In general, a Jew is one who follows the religion of Judaism.  An Israeli is one who is a citizen of modern Israel, the political entity, the modern nation.  An Israelite is one who is descended from the biblical nation of Israel.  So then who is an Iraelite?  Who is a non-Israelite?  Could it be you?  Could it be me?  Could DNA studies eventually help to answer some of these questions?

Admittedly, my knowledge of this subject is limited.  Does anyone have more insight or information on this subject?  I would love to learn more about it.

Actually, the northern kingdom of Israel went into captivity first.  After Judah also went into captivity, and after the seventy years of exile, only a small fraction of the population ever returned to Palestine.  Most remained within the new empire of the Medes and Persians.  These people, along with elements of the other tribes (northern kingdom), eventually formed a kingdom of their own, which in time became the Parthian Empire, ruled for about a thousand years by descendants of the House of David.  This rule preserved the promise of God to David that a man would never lack to sit on his throne.  This rulership moved west after the end of the Parthian Empire due to a Persian revolt.

It might interest you to know that the Parthians did rule Palestine briefly, prior to Herod's rule, and that is why all Jerusalem was so upset at the arrival of the three magi (a Parthian religious caste).

[WhiteWings]

Titus 3:9
but shun foolish questionings, and genealogies (...hello?...), and strifes, and fightings about law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

And what do we do? Seek after questionings on genealogies, even after we are told the flesh profits nothing.  :doh:

Matt 1:1-23

[Lazarus Short]

History tells us that, after the kingdom was divided, the southern kingdom (Judah) was taken captive to Babylon, then later the northern kingdom (Israel) was taken captive to Assyria.  In general, Judah was eventually allowed to return to their homeland.  However, Israel never returned, but rather was dispersed, and became known as the lost tribes of Israel.  Many historians now believe that these "lost" Israelites migrated mostly in a northerly and westerly direction into Europe, among other places, eventually becoming assimilated into the population.  Later many peoples from all over Europe, among other places, migrated to North America.

The native Americans seem to have lots of words and ways that can be linked to ancient Isreal. Modern linguists even are more and more convinced Hebrew is the mother of all languages (Babel?)
Often it's taught Columbus did discover America. He did but but long before him the vikings and long before them.... yep the Jews. Somewhere in the USA there is cave with ancient Hebrew writing.

Here in New Mexico, we have the Decalogue Stone, written IIRC, in very old Hebrew/Phoenician letters.  I hope to see it this winter before we move to Alabama.

linky:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Lunas_Decalogue_Stone

[Seth]

You don't get it.  I am not talking about spiritual Israel.  I am talking about the physical tribes of Israel of bibles times.

You are talking about spiritual Israel, believers, Jesus' followers.  And I agree with what you are saying.  But that is not what I am referring to here.

You may be of the opinion that it is foolish to study such things, but I do not interpret any scripture as saying that such study is foolish.  I strongly disagree with your claim that such study is foolish based upon Titus 3:9!

Calm down.

I didn't say it was foolish to study.

I said if we do so, we should do it under the banner in which Paul defines what is a Jew or not.

THEREFORE, my studies on the true geneology of a Jew shows me that THERE ARE NO LOST TRIBES OF ISRAEL AT ALL. Physical Israel is not Israel at all...

[Seth]

So then who is an Iraelite?  Who is a non-Israelite?  Could it be you?  Could it be me?

My answer: ANYONE WHO IS IN THE SPIRIT IS A JEW, AND NOBODY WHO IS NOT IN THE SPIRIT. Israel according to the flesh is NOT Israel. No need to froth at the mouth. I am simply trying to answer your question.

"Not all Israel is Israel" means: Just because you are a Jew by the flesh does not make you a Jew. Just because you are a Gentile by the flesh does not make you a Gentile. Go ahead, check it in context.

ONLY those with a circumcision of the heart are Jews. God redefined his people in the new covenant. That's hard medicine for alot of people, but only God's sovereignty matters in who he says are Jews. You act as though there is some legitimacy in being "physical Israel" as though God has two people, and that there is some legitimacy in the flesh on that matter. That is why you asked the question: could it be you? Could it be me? It's whoever has a circumcision of the heart by the Spirit. NOT ALL ISRAEL IS ISRAEL.

But by all means, search for that lost tribe. You will find nothing but that which is not Israel until you preach the gospel and they receive the Spirit and become Jews. Go for it, brother, but you are searching for fool's gold.

[WhiteWings]

History tells us that, after the kingdom was divided, the southern kingdom (Judah) was taken captive to Babylon, then later the northern kingdom (Israel) was taken captive to Assyria.  In general, Judah was eventually allowed to return to their homeland.  However, Israel never returned, but rather was dispersed, and became known as the lost tribes of Israel.  Many historians now believe that these "lost" Israelites migrated mostly in a northerly and westerly direction into Europe, among other places, eventually becoming assimilated into the population.  Later many peoples from all over Europe, among other places, migrated to North America.

The native Americans seem to have lots of words and ways that can be linked to ancient Isreal. Modern linguists even are more and more convinced Hebrew is the mother of all languages (Babel?)
Often it's taught Columbus did discover America. He did but but long before him the vikings and long before them.... yep the Jews. Somewhere in the USA there is cave with ancient Hebrew writing.

Here in New Mexico, we have the Decalogue Stone, written IIRC, in very old Hebrew/Phoenician letters.  I hope to see it this winter before we move to Alabama.

This one I assume? http://godssecret.wordpress.com/2009/06/14/oldest-known-10-commandments-is-in-america-in-ancient-hebrew-script-from-time-of-king-solomon/

[Lazarus Short]

Yup.  It may interest you, if you don't already know, that Solomon appears to have had copper mining operations in the Great Lakes area.  The ore was brought down the Mississippi River.

[Seth]

Titus 3:9
but shun foolish questionings, and genealogies (...hello?...), and strifes, and fightings about law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

And what do we do? Seek after questionings on genealogies, even after we are told the flesh profits nothing.  :doh:

Matt 1:1-23

.....and?

[Seth]

Just wondering WhiteWings. What does Christ's genealogy tell you about flesh vs. spirit. What made Christ the begotten of God? Man's efforts or God's choice?

[jbertonbounds]

You don't get it.  I am not talking about spiritual Israel.  I am talking about the physical tribes of Israel of bibles times.

You are talking about spiritual Israel, believers, Jesus' followers.  And I agree with what you are saying.  But that is not what I am referring to here.

You may be of the opinion that it is foolish to study such things, but I do not interpret any scripture as saying that such study is foolish.  I strongly disagree with your claim that such study is foolish based upon Titus 3:9!

Calm down.

Really dude?  Just because I speak straightforward does not mean I am not calm.  I am trying to clarify the confusion you are creating by changing the subject of my opening post from physical Israel to spiritual Israel.  Stick to the opening post, please.

I didn't say it was foolish to study.

Your misuse of Titus 3:9 implied it was.

I said if we do so, we should do it under the banner in which Paul defines what is a Jew or not.

Feel free to start a thread on spiritual Israel anytime.  This one is about physical Israel.

THEREFORE, my studies on the true geneology of a Jew shows me that THERE ARE NO LOST TRIBES OF ISRAEL AT ALL. Physical Israel is not Israel at all...

You are still talking about spiritual Israel.  I was not.  And yes there was and still is a physical Israel.  Physical Israel is not the same as spiritual Israel, and they do both exist.

[Seth]

Calm down.

Really dude?  Just because I speak straightforward does not mean I am not calm.  I am trying to clarify the confusion you are creating by changing the subject of my opening post from physical Israel to spiritual Israel.  Stick to the opening post, please.

Ok, but just to let you know, the visual language of GIANT red words does translate into ANGER: :BangHead:. If that was not your intent, ok. But your visual language didn't communicate that to me.


Your misuse of Titus 3:9 implied it was.

Yet I never SAID it. So if you think I am IMPLYING, why not clarify?

Feel free to start a thread on spiritual Israel anytime.  This one is about physical Israel.

There is no such thing.

You are still talking about spiritual Israel.  I was not.  And yes there was and still is a physical Israel.  Physical Israel is not the same as spiritual Israel, and they do both exist.

No they don't. Not all Israel is Israel. There is no such thing as a lost tribe  of Israel.

There are not two Israels. GOD only has ONE FIRST BORN SON. Mary didn't have twins!!!! Ishmael was not born from Sarah along with Isaac!!!

Israel is God's first born son, and he is very clear who that is, and who is IN that Son is Israel. Israel is not divided. It is ONE. Paul said "and blessed be the Israel of God," not "blessed be both Israels of God." Your theology does not work.

If you want to scripturally prove that Jews according to the flesh are Jews, do so. If not, then it proves that NOT all Israel is Israel, because the children of the flesh are NOT counted for the seed...You seem to think they are...

[Lazarus Short]

There is no such thing as a lost tribe  of Israel.

The ten tribes of the northern kingdom did not simply go "poof" when the Assyrians carried them off.  In the same manner, the Jews who stayed behind in Mesopotamia did not go "poof" after the time of Ezra and Nehemiah.  They went on and on, had children, etc, and the ancient tribes became nations with other names.  Theology is not the only thing - it must align with reality.

Other than saying that, I don't care to get involved in the debate.

[jabcat]

don't care to get involved in the debate.

yeah, a good reminder to let's not debate, let's discuss.  Also, to post in the spirit of "as I understand", "I believe", etc.   :thumbsup:

Paul talked of the natural olive tree...not unusual, but I'm a little confused...   :Chinscratch:

Been looking at that Solomon in the Americas thing Laz..I don't guess I'd heard of it.  I'm part Cherokee, so just one more thing I find interesting about that.

Carry on :)

[jbertonbounds]

It would be much easier to discuss in a gentle spirit if we did not have comments like "you are searching for fool's gold," "calm down," and "no need to froth at the mouth."  Statements like that are inflammatory, immature, and unnecessary.  My opening post is about history.  Nothing foolish about that.  I never got un-calm, or frothed at the mouth.  I used red print and larger fonts to emphasize that the discussion was going off-subject.  I might suggest at this point that this thread be locked.  It is completely fruitless under these circumstances.

Peace.

[Seth]

jbertonbounds, my apologies. I was responding to what I perceived to be a raging post, due to the GIANT red words. I am not sure how that could be considered a civil way to handle a conversation on a forum, but that's just me. For my part I apologize.

jabcat,
Yes, there are natural branches grafted into the olive tree. The olive tree is Israel. So if the natural branches get cut off, they are no longer in Israel, natural or not. In other words, you aren't part of the tree unless GOD grafts you in. It's not an automatic function of DNA or physical circumcision. It's not to say that there is no "Jew according to the flesh" but it IS to say "the children of the flesh are NOT counted for the seed."

The word "counted" means that God makes a choice of who is Israel. If it were a matter of the flesh, than Israel would not be God's choice, or his "counting" it would be according to man's efforts. That is not what we learn from the example of Sarah and Isaac as opposed to Ishmael and Hagar.

God draws the line as to what is Israel, and Paul never says the word "physical Israel" because NOT all Israel is Israel. That is the same as saying not all Jews are Jews. If "physical Israel" exists then indeed all Israel IS Israel, whether spiritual or physical. It would literally invalidate scripture.

But, NOT all Israel is Israel. In context, he is saying that Jews according to the flesh are NOT Jews unless they are in the Spirit.

The identity of Israel was critical to Paul. In fact the entire book of Galatians hinges on it.