"It is impossible to renew unto repentance" (Hebrews 6)

[Tom]

I have no idea what you're talking about, bro. If you're saying that believing some of the spiritual endowments of the Pentecostal era are no longer operating is "ungodliness," I disagree. Part of my search for the truth, after I left the Catholic Church and investigated psychedelics then Zen and Taoist philosophies, was to spend some time with some Charismatic folks. Because I didn't know better, I thought their worship was the real deal for awhile, but I've since changed my mind. If anything is an example of what you call "ungodliness," it's the deceptive spirit in the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement.

http://concordant.org/expohtml/SpiritualEndowments/index.html

Whoa, there is a serious misunderstanding, and if that is on my part then I apologize. In no way to I believe that a belief in cessation amounts to ungodliness.

Here was your quote in response to my OP

In place of repentance and pardon, we have faith and justification, which know no falling away, being entirely of grace, from first to last."

All the scriptures I have posted until now have shown that Grace is for keeping us in a state of continual repentance from sin. Grace does not replace "repentance and pardon" it is a continual causation of repentance in the believer. The Holy Spirit FEEDS our roots so that we continue in a state of repentance from sin by teaching us to abandon ungodliness and live holy in this present world.

That has nothing to do with the 1 Cor 12 gifts of the Spirit. Cessation is a hot topic issue, but I think, not the point of what I am saying. HAVING the Holy Spirit is the point, whether or not it manifests in those ways. And if we have the Spirit, everything Paul taught about Grace, again is in accordance to a maintaining of repentance, not to be replaced by some other form of Grace for this present time.

What this shows is that in no way was Hebrews 6 written as an admonition limited to 1st Century Christians but continues in application to modern day Christians.

http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheEvangel/Repentance.html

[JulieTang84]

Repentance is more than just lip service. I have someone very dear to me who is a very bitter person. He is a Jesus lover and wears Jesus T-Shirts always, yet is clueless. His words regarding repentance are empty. For he gladly holds many in contempt for 'wrongs' done against him, for the knives they have stuck his heart with. He is a very bitter, lost child who has not even the concept of love and forgiveness. For nothing can be forgiven unless re-compensation comes first.

His concept of forgiveness is as flawed as his concept of repentance. Before one can repent anything, one MUST first look deep inside one's heart and empty of all the vial, deceitful cancers it contains. True repentance comes from the heart, and never from the lips. Repentance isn't saying: "God please forgive me for ......(whatever.) It's not something done daily or even as needed. Rather, until one empties themselves of everything other than Love, they are bargaining with God by saying in effect: "God I will give you "this much" if you give me what I want and if you are lucky, I will trade with again sometime.

Repentance is NOT a commodity, it is a state of being. One MUST realize that without the LOVE they are nothing. That no matter how hard "THEY" try, they will always fall short of the mark.

Repentance IS allowing the Spirit to work in an through oneself; and living in the light of truth. A light that can only shine when one has utterly forgiven oneself and emptied themselves of every hurt.

Living IN Repentance keeps us Close to Father

A. E. Knoch sums all of this up perfectly

Let us not look back and vaunt ourselves with, "I prayed, I repented, I was baptized, and I—," but let us rather shout with the Apostle "no longer I, but CHRIST!" If I had a hand in my salvation it must needs contain a flaw, for I find failure fills everything I do. But if Christ alone deserves the crown, then all like Him is perfect and immutable. Some who repented fell away (Heb.6:6) and it was impossible to renew them again to repentance. Therefore the apostle exhorts them to leave repentance from dead works (Heb.6:1).

It is God's purpose that in all things Christ should have the preeminence and that all fullness should dwell in Him. He is God's fullness. He is our fullness. Both God and His saints are mutually and completely furnished in Christ (Col.1:19,20; 2:9,10).

Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

[Tom]

"18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just award for all mankind for life's justifying.
19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just." (Romans 5:18,19)

"18 The parallel here is perfect. Adam's one offense is counteracted by Christ's one just award. The act of Adam actually affects all mankind. So Christ's work, eventually, must also actually justify all mankind. This cannot be during the eons, hence will not be fully accomplished until after the eons are past, when all are made alive in Christ (1 Cor.15:22). If Adam's offense only gave each one an opportunity to sin, so that some become sinners and others not, then we might say that Christ's work brings justification to all subject to their acceptance. But we must acknowledge that man has no choice in becoming a sinner, thus also will it be through the work of Christ. Both are actual and universal.

19 The contrast here is between one and many, not between the many and the all of the previous statement. The many here are the all of verse eighteen." (Concordant Commentary on the New Testament page 235)

http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html

[Seth]

I have no idea what you're talking about, bro. If you're saying that believing some of the spiritual endowments of the Pentecostal era are no longer operating is "ungodliness," I disagree. Part of my search for the truth, after I left the Catholic Church and investigated psychedelics then Zen and Taoist philosophies, was to spend some time with some Charismatic folks. Because I didn't know better, I thought their worship was the real deal for awhile, but I've since changed my mind. If anything is an example of what you call "ungodliness," it's the deceptive spirit in the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement.

http://concordant.org/expohtml/SpiritualEndowments/index.html

Whoa, there is a serious misunderstanding, and if that is on my part then I apologize. In no way to I believe that a belief in cessation amounts to ungodliness.

Here was your quote in response to my OP

In place of repentance and pardon, we have faith and justification, which know no falling away, being entirely of grace, from first to last."

All the scriptures I have posted until now have shown that Grace is for keeping us in a state of continual repentance from sin. Grace does not replace "repentance and pardon" it is a continual causation of repentance in the believer. The Holy Spirit FEEDS our roots so that we continue in a state of repentance from sin by teaching us to abandon ungodliness and live holy in this present world.

That has nothing to do with the 1 Cor 12 gifts of the Spirit. Cessation is a hot topic issue, but I think, not the point of what I am saying. HAVING the Holy Spirit is the point, whether or not it manifests in those ways. And if we have the Spirit, everything Paul taught about Grace, again is in accordance to a maintaining of repentance, not to be replaced by some other form of Grace for this present time.

What this shows is that in no way was Hebrews 6 written as an admonition limited to 1st Century Christians but continues in application to modern day Christians.

http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheEvangel/Repentance.html

Honestly Tom, it is really difficult to have a conversation with web links. Are you avoiding me? Can you just answer my simple question?

Do you believe that believers in Christ receive his Spirit in this day?

[Seth]

Let us not look back and vaunt ourselves with, "I prayed, I repented, I was baptized, and I—," but let us rather shout with the Apostle "no longer I, but CHRIST!" Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

Julie, absolutely. Repentance is not simply paying lip service. It is a WAY of living. It is CAUSED by the Holy Spirit, so that no man may boast.

"For it is GOD who works in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."

Without the gift of the Spirit we are sunk in that matter, because we cannot heal ourselves of the inner part of us, the carnal mind. We need the Spirit for that. And what I am attempting to understand from Tom is whether or not he believes that we do have the Spirit or not, but all I get are web links, so it doesn't even seem like I am having a conversation with somebody.

[Seth]

"18 The parallel here is perfect. Adam's one offense is counteracted by Christ's one just award. The act of Adam actually affects all mankind. So Christ's work, eventually, must also actually justify all mankind. This cannot be during the eons, hence will not be fully accomplished until after the eons are past, when all are made alive in Christ (1 Cor.15:22). If Adam's offense only gave each one an opportunity to sin, so that some become sinners and others not, then we might say that Christ's work brings justification to all subject to their acceptance. But we must acknowledge that man has no choice in becoming a sinner, thus also will it be through the work of Christ. Both are actual and universal.

Exactly. FOR IT IS GOD WHO WORKS IN YOU, BOTH TO WILL AND TO DO OF HIS GOOD PLEASURE.

Romans 5
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life BY one, Jesus Christ.)

Jesus says "I AM the resurrection and the life."

How shall we reign in Life by Grace? For sin shall not be your master because you are not under Law but under Grace. What does Grace do? It chastens us to abandon ungodliness in this present age.

:dsunny:

[rosered]

 
  Oh my Lord Jesus ! ,
  Seth I loved the original post  on Hebrews  6 !
   and understand    a bit about how your explaining it 
By  the grace you are saved , so the grace to me is the ability to not FOCUS  on sin and all that
elemental teachings that so many still  fuss  over how its done  , as its been explained already in the WORD OF GOD ! IF  we are to go on into ''perfection '' complete   salvation , body soul and Spirit  preserved  , we are to be  in the repentance''  a change of tranforming our minds to the MIND OF CHRIST ''!  LORD OF ALL , Yet serving all  , Jesus Christ 
  You can call me a Jesus freak , and count it as JOY !!    Dont get bitter over it a bit  , you could say I am clinging to Jesus for all its worth  to the end !!
Foe me there is only ONE LIVING BODY SOUL AND SPIRIT Alive to God right now  , and its Jesus Christ   ,  having the  POWER in the  earth , heavens and even below !   , being in  HIS BODY , IS THE TRUE CHURCH   , OF HIS flesh and bones and  made of Him 

we are Like Paul said , not to abuse this grace , but USE this grace to    bring others to the same place   in Jesus Body , soul and Spirit of ONENESS     that  brings true salvation to all
   the testimony or witness of Jesus Christ   in our mouths    , same message in Revelation !

I wanted to share more , but   , run out of time .
  God bless   all for their efforts in forwarding  the good news of the gospel of Jesus Cjhrist  and be true in their calling and purpose in Gods will .

[Seth]

  Oh my Lord Jesus ! ,
  Seth I loved the original post  on Hebrews  6 !
   and understand    a bit about how your explaining it 
By  the grace you are saved , so the grace to me is the ability to not FOCUS  on sin and all that
elemental teachings that so many still  fuss  over how its done  , as its been explained already in the WORD OF GOD ! IF  we are to go on into "perfection " complete   salvation , body soul and Spirit  preserved  , we are to be  in the repentance"  a change of tranforming our minds to the MIND OF CHRIST "!  LORD OF ALL , Yet serving all  , Jesus Christ 
  You can call me a Jesus freak , and count it as JOY !!    Dont get bitter over it a bit  , you could say I am clinging to Jesus for all its worth  to the end !!
Foe me there is only ONE LIVING BODY SOUL AND SPIRIT Alive to God right now  , and its Jesus Christ   ,  having the  POWER in the  earth , heavens and even below !   , being in  HIS BODY , IS THE TRUE CHURCH   , OF HIS flesh and bones and  made of Him 

we are Like Paul said , not to abuse this grace , but USE this grace to    bring others to the same place   in Jesus Body , soul and Spirit of ONENESS     that  brings true salvation to all
   the testimony or witness of Jesus Christ   in our mouths    , same message in Revelation !

I wanted to share more , but   , run out of time .
  God bless   all for their efforts in forwarding  the good news of the gospel of Jesus Cjhrist  and be true in their calling and purpose in Gods will .

Yes, Rosered, Grace is not a passive thing. It is manifested in God doing a work within us. It's ALL his work and has nothing to do with the the Law of Moses. It's all about being FORMED....like clay....in the hand of the potter to become the image of his own Son. This is what God's plan of salvation is: Let us make man in our own image.

That's what God is doing with Grace, forming us into the image of his Son. The Gospel is not simply "salvation from death" but salvation from SIN.  :HeartThrob:

[Tom]

I have no idea what you're talking about, bro. If you're saying that believing some of the spiritual endowments of the Pentecostal era are no longer operating is "ungodliness," I disagree. Part of my search for the truth, after I left the Catholic Church and investigated psychedelics then Zen and Taoist philosophies, was to spend some time with some Charismatic folks. Because I didn't know better, I thought their worship was the real deal for awhile, but I've since changed my mind. If anything is an example of what you call "ungodliness," it's the deceptive spirit in the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement.

http://concordant.org/expohtml/SpiritualEndowments/index.html

Whoa, there is a serious misunderstanding, and if that is on my part then I apologize. In no way to I believe that a belief in cessation amounts to ungodliness.

Here was your quote in response to my OP

In place of repentance and pardon, we have faith and justification, which know no falling away, being entirely of grace, from first to last."

All the scriptures I have posted until now have shown that Grace is for keeping us in a state of continual repentance from sin. Grace does not replace "repentance and pardon" it is a continual causation of repentance in the believer. The Holy Spirit FEEDS our roots so that we continue in a state of repentance from sin by teaching us to abandon ungodliness and live holy in this present world.

That has nothing to do with the 1 Cor 12 gifts of the Spirit. Cessation is a hot topic issue, but I think, not the point of what I am saying. HAVING the Holy Spirit is the point, whether or not it manifests in those ways. And if we have the Spirit, everything Paul taught about Grace, again is in accordance to a maintaining of repentance, not to be replaced by some other form of Grace for this present time.

What this shows is that in no way was Hebrews 6 written as an admonition limited to 1st Century Christians but continues in application to modern day Christians.

http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheEvangel/Repentance.html

Honestly Tom, it is really difficult to have a conversation with web links. Are you avoiding me? Can you just answer my simple question?

Do you believe that believers in Christ receive his Spirit in this day?

I'm not avoiding you, brother. I'm busy taking care of my totally handicapped sister and my 89 year old dad who has Alzheimer's. Why do you doubt I believe we have the spirit? If you read the information provided by the web links instead of complaining about them, you probably wouldn't be asking me. I think it's wacko that you asked, but just to spell it out for you, "YES!" OK?

"the love of God has been poured out in our hearts through the holy spirit which is being given to us" (Romans 5:5)

"9 But, according as it is written, That which the eye did not perceive, and the ear did not hear, and to which the heart of man did not ascend -- whatever God makes ready for those who are loving Him.
10 Yet to us God reveals them through His spirit, for the spirit is searching all, even the depths of God.
11 For is any of humanity acquainted with that which is human except the spirit of humanity which is in it? Thus also, that which is of God no one knows, except the spirit of God.
12 Now we obtained, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God, that we may be perceiving that which is being graciously given to us by God,
13 which we are speaking also, not with words taught by human wisdom, but with those taught by the spirit, matching spiritual blessings with spiritual words.
14 Now the soulish man is not receiving those things which are of the spirit of God, for they are stupidity to him, and he is not able to know them, seeing that they are spiritually examined.
15 Now he who is spiritual is, indeed, examining all, yet he is being examined by no one.
16 For who knew the mind of the Lord? Who will be deducing from Him? Yet we have the mind of Christ." (1 Corinthians 2:9-16)

"Are you not aware that you are a temple of God and the spirit of God is making its home in you?" (1 Corinthians 3:16)

"no one is able to say "Lord is Jesus" except by holy spirit" (1 Corinthians 12:3)

"For in one spirit also we all are baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and all are made to imbibe one spirit." (1 Corinthians 12:13)

"22 Now the fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23 meekness, self-control" (Galatians 5:22,23)

"you are sealed with the holy spirit of promise" (Ephesians 1:13)

"11 Put on the panoply of God, to enable you to stand up to the stratagems of the Adversary,
12 for it is not ours to wrestle with blood and flesh, but with the sovereignties, with the authorities, with the world-mights of this darkness, with the spiritual forces of wickedness among the celestials.
13 Therefore take up the panoply of God that you may be enabled to withstand in the wicked day, and having effected all, to stand.
14 Stand, then, girded about your loins with truth, with the cuirass of righteousness put on,
15 and your feet sandaled with the readiness of the evangel of peace;
16 with all taking up the large shield of faith, by which you will be able to extinguish all the fiery arrows of the wicked one.
17 And receive the helmet of salvation and the sword of the spirit, which is a declaration of God." (Ephesians 6:11-17)

"THE JOINT ALLOTMENT IN
THE CELESTIAL SPHERE
WARFARE

10 Israel's warfare is with flesh and blood on the earth. Ours is with wicked spirits in the celestial realms. We should always remember that those who oppose us are merely the intermediaries used by the spiritual forces and treat them accordingly. It is not our place to wrestle with blood and flesh but to look beyond the human instrument to the real adversary in the spirit world. Material weapons are worse than useless. Our attitude toward men should be one of purest conciliation, not strife (6:15).

The Joint Allotment in Heaven

14 The spiritual armor here given covers the whole body and is for defense only. Truth will give us strength to withstand the attacks of error. Righteousness will preserve us from the wounds of wickedness. The evangel of peace, wherewith we go, will conciliate the human weapons used by the spirit powers which are directing human affairs.

16 An ancient mode of warfare was to fasten fire to arrows which would not only wound but burn. It was especially used against elephants to cause them to stampede. When the adversary sends some burning dart in the direction of the believer it is his privilege to shield himself by means of the faith which this epistle affords. This will effectually stop the arrows and quench their fire.

17 When all this has been done then we receive (not take) the helmet of salvation. And then we are entrusted with the sword of the spirit—a divine declaration. We have no offensive power at all except an explicit statement of God. The Scriptures contain many statements of men, such as the assertions of Job's friends, which are false. Hence only the declarations which proceed out of the mouth of God constitute the spirit's sword." (Concordant Commentary on the New Testament page 294)

http://concordant.org/expohtml/CheckYourPanoply/Panoply016.html

[Seth]

I'm not avoiding you, brother. I'm busy taking care of my totally handicapped sister and my 89 year old dad who has Alzheimer's. Why do you doubt I believe we have the spirit? If you read the information provided by the web links instead of complaining about them, you probably wouldn't be asking me. I think it's wacko that you asked, but just to spell it out for you, "YES!" OK?

It's not wacko to ask because every time you respond to me, you do it by way of posting an entire article that I have to wade through to get to your answer, and then I am not sure if it's really the answer. That is frankly a bizarre way of communicating with people. It would be a lot easier to understand what you are trying to say, by simply taking a few moments and telling me. I have no problem reading articles which flesh out your point, but to simply post a link as a response makes it very difficult to understand your point.

I am also dealing with a Grandmother who has Alzheimers so I know what you are going through.

The reason I had to ask is because you original response appeared to say that we no longer have or need the Holy Spirit because of cessation. That is the confusion you caused by not simply talking to me and posting articles instead.

If we have the Holy Spirit, that is because the Spirit is given to keep us in repentance so that we can WALK by the Spirit. I still fail to see how your original response to me shows that Hebrews 6 is only for 1st Century Christians.

If you have important things to do, no rush! But I would appreciate a few moments of your time to explain your point in your original response.

[Tom]

I'm not avoiding you, brother. I'm busy taking care of my totally handicapped sister and my 89 year old dad who has Alzheimer's. Why do you doubt I believe we have the spirit? If you read the information provided by the web links instead of complaining about them, you probably wouldn't be asking me. I think it's wacko that you asked, but just to spell it out for you, "YES!" OK?

It's not wacko to ask because every time you respond to me, you do it by way of posting an entire article that I have to wade through to get to your answer, and then I am not sure if it's really the answer. That is frankly a bizarre way of communicating with people. It would be a lot easier to understand what you are trying to say, by simply taking a few moments and telling me. I have no problem reading articles which flesh out your point, but to simply post a link as a response makes it very difficult to understand your point.

I am also dealing with a Grandmother who has Alzheimers so I know what you are going through.

The reason I had to ask is because you original response appeared to say that we no longer have or need the Holy Spirit because of cessation. That is the confusion you caused by not simply talking to me and posting articles instead.

If we have the Holy Spirit, that is because the Spirit is given to keep us in repentance so that we can WALK by the Spirit. I still fail to see how your original response to me shows that Hebrews 6 is only for 1st Century Christians.

If you have important things to do, no rush! But I would appreciate a few moments of your time to explain your point in your original response.

I've taken time to respond to you, brother, despite the fact that you say I've caused you confusion by not doing so. I think you're making a false assumption that we don't have the spirit because some spiritual endowments are no longer being manifested. I think the scripture, commentary, and links provide an adequate explanation. Here's a little more context to hopefully provide clarification.

"12 For when also, because of the time, you ought to be teachers, you have need again of one to teach you what are the rudimentary elements of the oracles of God, and you have come to have need of milk, and not of solid nourishment.
13 For everyone who is partaking of milk is untried in the word of righteousness, for he is a minor.
14 Now solid nourishment is for the mature, who, because of habit, have faculties exercised for discriminating between the ideal and the evil.

Chapter 6
1 Wherefore, leaving the word dealing with the rudiments of Christ, we should be brought on to maturity, (not again disrupting the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith on God,
2 of the teaching of baptizings, besides the imposition of hands, and the resurrection of the dead, and of judgment eonian).
3 And this will we be doing, that is, if God may be permitting.
4 For it is impossible for those once enlightened, besides tasting the celestial gratuity and becoming partakers of holy spirit,
5 and tasting the ideal declaration of God, besides the powerful deeds of the impending eon,
6 and falling aside, to be renewing them again to repentance while crucifying for themselves the Son of God again and holding Him up to infamy." (Hebrews 5:12-6:6)

"11 The Jews were blind to the failures and disabilities connected with the Aaronic priesthood, hence could not appreciate the necessity of a new order for the Messiah. This made the whole subject a difficult one to unfold to them. The principal lessons are drawn from the inspired omissions in the record, which require a measure of spiritual apprehension which they did not possess.

1 The six rudiments which form the foundation which the Hebrews are exhorted to leave for more mature teaching are closely connected with the proclamation of the kingdom, and are not the substructure of present truth. Repentance and baptism are the keys to the kingdom, and are not for the body of Christ. Peter, at Pentecost, proclaims repentance and baptism to the Jews—perhaps to some who later received this epistle. Faith is the basis on which the present administration of grace is built. The Jews were zealous religionists. Their ritual was the dead works of which they repented when they turned to Messiah. "Faith on God" is probably the equivalent of our "belief in God", that is believing that He is, rather than what He has said. Believing God, as in Abraham's case, leads to justification, a grace entirely absent from this list.

2 Paul did not put baptism in the foundation of his evangel. He insisted that Christ had not sent him to baptize, but to evangelize (1 Co.1:17). Now there is only one baptism—that in spirit, which unites us into one body (Eph.4:5). In the kingdom proclamation, however, baptism in water was essential.
     The imposition of hands for the conveyance of spiritual benefits especially through the apostles is also a characteristic of the kingdom economy.
     There seems to be no reference here to the "resurrection from among the dead", but rather to resurrection in general, apart from which the kingdom cannot be set up. At that time will the saints in Israel awake and possess the kingdom promised to them in the prophets.
     Eonian judgment characterizes the inception and progress of Messiah's reign. It begins with the severest judgments this earth has known.
     These are the six foundation stones cast down by those who fell away among the Hebrews. They should have left them for maturity. Instead, they forsake them for apostasy. Instead of going back to Judaism, they would crucify again for themselves the Son of God.

4 This description applies only to those who participated in the Pentecostal blessings. They were enlightened, they' tasted the celestial gratuity, they became partakers of holy spirit, and God's declaration, and they only experienced the powers of the kingdom eon, and many of them fell aside. These blessings were based on their repentance, or change of mind, which was induced largely by the miracles which they saw. When the kingdom failed to appear, and its powers vanished, their repentance went also. Hence the impossibility of renewing it, for the means which produced it were no longer in evidence. Such a course is not possible in a day of grace, such as we live in. In place of repentance and pardon, we have faith and justification, which know no falling away, being entirely of grace, from first to last." (Concordant Commentary on the New Testament pages 340,341)

[Tom]

PS: I think some of your confusion will be avoided if you consider to whom the epistle is addressed.

"HEBREWS

THE EPISTLE TO THE HEBREWS

Hebrews resumes the subject of the book of Acts. Paul's epistles are a parenthesis in God's administrations. In Acts the kingdom is proclaimed, and rejected by the nation of Israel as a whole. Yet there was a remnant who believed. Of these the Hellenists followed the revelations given to Paul and found a new and a celestial destiny. But the Hebrews, associated with the twelve apostles and James, whose destiny is the kingdom as promised by the prophets, are left in a distressing situation due to the national defection of Israel. What is to become of them during the time that the nation stumbles? The kingdom cannot come until after the fullness of the nations has come in. That could hardly be during their lifetime. The book of Hebrews deals with the problem of these Pentecostal believers and takes them back to the same position as was occupied by the patriarchs and prophets of old, as explained in the eleventh chapter. They died in faith, not having received the promises.
     An important distinction between Hebrews and Hellenists will help in understanding this epistle. Both were Jews, of the stock of Israel as to the flesh. Both are brought before us in the sixth of Acts, where the widows of the Hellenists were distinguished from the widows of the Hebrews. Both spoke Greek. But the culture and training of the Hebrews was essentially Eastern and according to the traditions of their ancestors. The Hellenists, who were composed mostly of those who had lived in foreign lands, were Greek in culture and customs. So distinct were they that they had special synagogues in Jerusalem. The Hebrews were strong for ritual and the religion of their fathers. They are the special subject of this epistle, as is manifest from the opening strain.
     As the faith of the Pentecostal believers rested on signs and wonders and miracles in anticipation of the powers of the kingdom, some fell away when these manifestations ceased and the promised kingdom failed to appear. Their apostasy is dealt with in the sixth and tenth chapters-passages which can have no application in the present administration of grace, but which have hung as a cloud over the heads of those who imagine themselves in a similar position. Saints in Israel were conditionally pardoned. Its continuance depended upon their extension of this pardon to the other nations, as in the parable of the ten thousand talent debtor. The pardon could be and was withdrawn. It is not in force now. We have the infinitely higher favor of justification.
     Hebrews is the antitype of the wilderness journey of Israel from Egypt to the promised land. It brings Christ before us as the true Mediator, greater than Moses, the true Saviour, greater than Joshua, the true Chief Priest, greater than Aaron. It holds forth better promises concerning the land and the kingdom. Its type is the tabernacle and its ministry, before Israel entered the land." (Concordant Commentary on the New Testament page 336)

http://concordant.org/expohtml/CorrectPartitioning/CorrectlyCutting.html

[Seth]

I've taken time to respond to you, brother, despite the fact that you say I've caused you confusion by not doing so. I think you're making a false assumption that we don't have the spirit because some spiritual endowments are no longer being manifested. I think the scripture, commentary, and links provide an adequate explanation. Here's a little more context to hopefully provide clarification.

I don't assume we don't have the Spirit. I have spend many posts saying that WE DO. You have not taken the time to respond to me. I have been having a conversation with AE Knoch, not Tom. An what if I disagree with him? You going to post more papers? It makes no sense.

If you and I were in a room together discussing this issue, would you do nothing but speak in quotes and web links? If not, then why do it here?

"11 The Jews were blind to the failures and disabilities connected with the Aaronic priesthood, hence could not appreciate the necessity of a new order for the Messiah. This made the whole subject a difficult one to unfold to them. The principal lessons are drawn from the inspired omissions in the record, which require a measure of spiritual apprehension which they did not possess.

The Hebrews 6 verse is not applicable to Jews according to the flesh. It is speaking about CHRISTIANS, Jews according to the Spirit. Christians are the ones who have the Spirit. And once they DO have the Spirit, there is no longer a difference between Jew and Genile. THE WALL OF PARTITION between them is TORN DOWN.

They may have ONCE been Jews according to the flesh. But you are no longer in the flesh but in the Spirit if it so be that the Spirit of God lives in you.

1 The six rudiments which form the foundation which the Hebrews are exhorted to leave for more mature teaching are closely connected with the proclamation of the kingdom, and are not the substructure of present truth. Repentance and baptism are the keys to the kingdom, and are not for the body of  Peter, at Pentecost, proclaims repentance and baptism to the Jews—perhaps to some who later received this epistle. Faith is the basis on which the present administration of grace is built.

As I have shown you AE Knoch is preaching from a misunderstanding of Grace.

The present administration of Grace is KEEPING CHRISTIANS IN A STATE OF CONTINUAL REPENTANCE by the Power and Working of the Holy Spirit, as I have shown you from Apostle Paul's writing. So there is no disagreement between what Paul wrote and what Peter wrote about Grace.

2 Paul did not put baptism in the foundation of his evangel. He insisted that Christ had not sent him to baptize, but to evangelize (1 Co.1:17). Now there is only one baptism—that in spirit, which unites us into one body (Eph.4:5). In the kingdom proclamation, however, baptism in water was essential.

Which baptism? John's baptism by water, or Christ's baptism by SPIRIT. Paul certainly laid on hands to baptize in the Holy Ghost.


   

4 This description applies only to those who participated in the Pentecostal blessings. They were enlightened, they' tasted the celestial gratuity, they became partakers of holy spirit, and God's declaration, and they only experienced the powers of the kingdom eon, and many of them fell aside. These blessings were based on their repentance, or change of mind, which was induced largely by the miracles which they saw. When the kingdom failed to appear, and its powers vanished, their repentance went also. Hence the impossibility of renewing it, for the means which produced it were no longer in evidence. Such a course is not possible in a day of grace, such as we live in. In place of repentance and pardon, we have faith and justification, which know no falling away, being entirely of grace, from first to last." (Concordant Commentary on the New Testament pages 340,341)

And I have shown you countless times, which you will not address, that GRACE is what teaches people to live in a state of repentance from sin. You will simply not address it.

[Seth]

PS: I think some of your confusion will be avoided if you consider to whom the epistle is addressed.

"HEBREWS

THE EPISTLE TO THE HEBREWS

Hebrews resumes the subject of the book of Acts. Paul's epistles are a parenthesis in God's administrations. In Acts the kingdom is proclaimed, and rejected by the nation of Israel as a whole. Yet there was a remnant who believed. Of these the Hellenists followed the revelations given to Paul and found a new and a celestial destiny. But the Hebrews, associated with the twelve apostles and James, whose destiny is the kingdom as promised by the prophets, are left in a distressing situation due to the national defection of Israel. What is to become of them during the time that the nation stumbles? The kingdom cannot come until after the fullness of the nations has come in. That could hardly be during their lifetime. The book of Hebrews deals with the problem of these Pentecostal believers and takes them back to the same position as was occupied by the patriarchs and prophets of old, as explained in the eleventh chapter. They died in faith, not having received the promises.
     An important distinction between Hebrews and Hellenists will help in understanding this epistle. Both were Jews, of the stock of Israel as to the flesh. Both are brought before us in the sixth of Acts, where the widows of the Hellenists were distinguished from the widows of the Hebrews. Both spoke Greek. But the culture and training of the Hebrews was essentially Eastern and according to the traditions of their ancestors. The Hellenists, who were composed mostly of those who had lived in foreign lands, were Greek in culture and customs. So distinct were they that they had special synagogues in Jerusalem. The Hebrews were strong for ritual and the religion of their fathers. They are the special subject of this epistle, as is manifest from the opening strain.
     As the faith of the Pentecostal believers rested on signs and wonders and miracles in anticipation of the powers of the kingdom, some fell away when these manifestations ceased and the promised kingdom failed to appear. Their apostasy is dealt with in the sixth and tenth chapters-passages which can have no application in the present administration of grace, but which have hung as a cloud over the heads of those who imagine themselves in a similar position. Saints in Israel were conditionally pardoned. Its continuance depended upon their extension of this pardon to the other nations, as in the parable of the ten thousand talent debtor. The pardon could be and was withdrawn. It is not in force now. We have the infinitely higher favor of justification.
     Hebrews is the antitype of the wilderness journey of Israel from Egypt to the promised land. It brings Christ before us as the true Mediator, greater than Moses, the true Saviour, greater than Joshua, the true Chief Priest, greater than Aaron. It holds forth better promises concerning the land and the kingdom. Its type is the tabernacle and its ministry, before Israel entered the land." (Concordant Commentary on the New Testament page 336)

http://concordant.org/expohtml/CorrectPartitioning/CorrectlyCutting.html

What you or AE Knoch don't seem to understand is that once we have the Holy Spirit, we are ONE in Christ, no Jew or Greek, but ONE MAN: Jesus Christ.

Hebrews is addressed to Christians, not Jews according to the flesh. It is addressed to those who were at ONE TIME Jews, but now, are ONE in Christ Jesus with Gentiles so that there is no longer a division between them. When ANYONE has the Holy Spirit they become one with eachother. Why preach a division when it's gone?

[Tom]

I've taken time to respond to you, brother, despite the fact that you say I've caused you confusion by not doing so. I think you're making a false assumption that we don't have the spirit because some spiritual endowments are no longer being manifested. I think the scripture, commentary, and links provide an adequate explanation. Here's a little more context to hopefully provide clarification.

I don't assume we don't have the Spirit. I have spend many posts saying that WE DO. You have not taken the time to respond to me. I have been having a conversation with AE Knoch, not Tom. An what if I disagree with him? You going to post more papers? It makes no sense.

If you and I were in a room together discussing this issue, would you do nothing but speak in quotes and web links? If not, then why do it here?

"11 The Jews were blind to the failures and disabilities connected with the Aaronic priesthood, hence could not appreciate the necessity of a new order for the Messiah. This made the whole subject a difficult one to unfold to them. The principal lessons are drawn from the inspired omissions in the record, which require a measure of spiritual apprehension which they did not possess.

The Hebrews 6 verse is not applicable to Jews according to the flesh. It is speaking about CHRISTIANS, Jews according to the Spirit. Christians are the ones who have the Spirit. And once they DO have the Spirit, there is no longer a difference between Jew and Genile. THE WALL OF PARTITION between them is TORN DOWN.

They may have ONCE been Jews according to the flesh. But you are no longer in the flesh but in the Spirit if it so be that the Spirit of God lives in you.

1 The six rudiments which form the foundation which the Hebrews are exhorted to leave for more mature teaching are closely connected with the proclamation of the kingdom, and are not the substructure of present truth. Repentance and baptism are the keys to the kingdom, and are not for the body of  Peter, at Pentecost, proclaims repentance and baptism to the Jews—perhaps to some who later received this epistle. Faith is the basis on which the present administration of grace is built.

As I have shown you AE Knoch is preaching from a misunderstanding of Grace.

The present administration of Grace is KEEPING CHRISTIANS IN A STATE OF CONTINUAL REPENTANCE by the Power and Working of the Holy Spirit, as I have shown you from Apostle Paul's writing. So there is no disagreement between what Paul wrote and what Peter wrote about Grace.

2 Paul did not put baptism in the foundation of his evangel. He insisted that Christ had not sent him to baptize, but to evangelize (1 Co.1:17). Now there is only one baptism—that in spirit, which unites us into one body (Eph.4:5). In the kingdom proclamation, however, baptism in water was essential.

Which baptism? John's baptism by water, or Christ's baptism by SPIRIT. Paul certainly laid on hands to baptize in the Holy Ghost.


   

4 This description applies only to those who participated in the Pentecostal blessings. They were enlightened, they' tasted the celestial gratuity, they became partakers of holy spirit, and God's declaration, and they only experienced the powers of the kingdom eon, and many of them fell aside. These blessings were based on their repentance, or change of mind, which was induced largely by the miracles which they saw. When the kingdom failed to appear, and its powers vanished, their repentance went also. Hence the impossibility of renewing it, for the means which produced it were no longer in evidence. Such a course is not possible in a day of grace, such as we live in. In place of repentance and pardon, we have faith and justification, which know no falling away, being entirely of grace, from first to last." (Concordant Commentary on the New Testament pages 340,341)

And I have shown you countless times, which you will not address, that GRACE is what teaches people to live in a state of repentance from sin. You will simply not address it.

Well, obviously we disagree about this just as we do about Gehenna.

[Seth]

Yes, obviously. I maintain that there is NO division between Jew or Gentile in the Spirit, which shows that ALL the epistles are edifying ONE BODY: Jesus Christ.

Every Jew who has been given the Holy Spirit by faith in the SON CEASES to be a Jew and becomes a NEW CREATION IN CHRIST.

[Tom]

PS: I think some of your confusion will be avoided if you consider to whom the epistle is addressed.

"HEBREWS

THE EPISTLE TO THE HEBREWS

Hebrews resumes the subject of the book of Acts. Paul's epistles are a parenthesis in God's administrations. In Acts the kingdom is proclaimed, and rejected by the nation of Israel as a whole. Yet there was a remnant who believed. Of these the Hellenists followed the revelations given to Paul and found a new and a celestial destiny. But the Hebrews, associated with the twelve apostles and James, whose destiny is the kingdom as promised by the prophets, are left in a distressing situation due to the national defection of Israel. What is to become of them during the time that the nation stumbles? The kingdom cannot come until after the fullness of the nations has come in. That could hardly be during their lifetime. The book of Hebrews deals with the problem of these Pentecostal believers and takes them back to the same position as was occupied by the patriarchs and prophets of old, as explained in the eleventh chapter. They died in faith, not having received the promises.
     An important distinction between Hebrews and Hellenists will help in understanding this epistle. Both were Jews, of the stock of Israel as to the flesh. Both are brought before us in the sixth of Acts, where the widows of the Hellenists were distinguished from the widows of the Hebrews. Both spoke Greek. But the culture and training of the Hebrews was essentially Eastern and according to the traditions of their ancestors. The Hellenists, who were composed mostly of those who had lived in foreign lands, were Greek in culture and customs. So distinct were they that they had special synagogues in Jerusalem. The Hebrews were strong for ritual and the religion of their fathers. They are the special subject of this epistle, as is manifest from the opening strain.
     As the faith of the Pentecostal believers rested on signs and wonders and miracles in anticipation of the powers of the kingdom, some fell away when these manifestations ceased and the promised kingdom failed to appear. Their apostasy is dealt with in the sixth and tenth chapters-passages which can have no application in the present administration of grace, but which have hung as a cloud over the heads of those who imagine themselves in a similar position. Saints in Israel were conditionally pardoned. Its continuance depended upon their extension of this pardon to the other nations, as in the parable of the ten thousand talent debtor. The pardon could be and was withdrawn. It is not in force now. We have the infinitely higher favor of justification.
     Hebrews is the antitype of the wilderness journey of Israel from Egypt to the promised land. It brings Christ before us as the true Mediator, greater than Moses, the true Saviour, greater than Joshua, the true Chief Priest, greater than Aaron. It holds forth better promises concerning the land and the kingdom. Its type is the tabernacle and its ministry, before Israel entered the land." (Concordant Commentary on the New Testament page 336)

http://concordant.org/expohtml/CorrectPartitioning/CorrectlyCutting.html

What you or AE Knoch don't seem to understand is that once we have the Holy Spirit, we are ONE in Christ, no Jew or Greek, but ONE MAN: Jesus Christ.

Hebrews is addressed to Christians, not Jews according to the flesh. It is addressed to those who were at ONE TIME Jews, but now, are ONE in Christ Jesus with Gentiles so that there is no longer a division between them. When ANYONE has the Holy Spirit they become one with eachother. Why preach a division when it's gone?

"27 For whoever are baptized into Christ, put on Christ,
28 in Whom there is no Jew nor yet Greek, there is no slave nor yet free, there is no male and female, for you all are one in Christ Jesus." (Galatians 3:27,28)

[Seth]

Which is what makes Hebrews 6 an admonition to Christians who are all one in Christ partaking the same Spirit

[JulieTang84]

Yes, obviously. I maintain that there is NO division between Jew or Gentile in the Spirit, which shows that ALL the epistles are edifying ONE BODY: Jesus Christ.

Every Jew who has been given the Holy Spirit by faith in the SON CEASES to be a Jew and becomes a NEW CREATION IN CHRIST.

Tom, I love you brother but Seth is speaking according to Scripture on this. Christ came to make a NEW HUMANITY.  :HeartThrob:

Eph 2:13
But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

Eph 2:14
For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility,

Eph 2:15
by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace,

Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

[WhiteWings]

Yes, obviously. I maintain that there is NO division between Jew or Gentile in the Spirit, which shows that ALL the epistles are edifying ONE BODY: Jesus Christ.

Every Jew who has been given the Holy Spirit by faith in the SON CEASES to be a Jew and becomes a NEW CREATION IN CHRIST.

But there is a difference in being a body-Christian and a bride-Christian.
And that difference determines (the level of) HS activity.
:2c:

[Tom]

"1 On this behalf I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you, the nations --
2 since you surely hear of the administration of the grace of God that is given to me for you,
3 for by revelation the secret is made known to me (according as I write before, in brief,
4 by which you who are reading are able to apprehend my understanding in the secret of the Christ,
5 which, in other generations, is not made known to the sons of humanity as it was now revealed to His holy apostles and prophets): in spirit
6 the nations are to be joint enjoyers of an allotment, and a joint body, and joint partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus, through the evangel
7 of which I became the dispenser, in accord with the gratuity of the grace of God, which is granted to me in accord with His powerful operation.
8 To me, less than the least of all saints, was granted this grace: to bring the evangel of the untraceable riches of Christ to the nations,
9 and to enlighten all as to what is the administration of the secret, which has been concealed from the eons in God, Who creates all,
10 that now may be made known to the sovereignties and the authorities among the celestials, through the ecclesia, the multifarious wisdom of God,
11 in accord with the purpose of the eons, which He makes in Christ Jesus, our Lord;
12 in Whom we have boldness and access with confidence, through His faith." (Ephesians 3:1-12)

[ded2daworld]

If we are all one man in Christ Jesus, are we not a hebrew or Jew because Christ was from the tribe of Judah in the flesh?  :Chinscratch:

BTW, "Jew" usually refers to one from the tribe of Judah. Hebrew to the others. At one time, Hebrews were fighting the Jews

[Seth]

Yes, obviously. I maintain that there is NO division between Jew or Gentile in the Spirit, which shows that ALL the epistles are edifying ONE BODY: Jesus Christ.

Every Jew who has been given the Holy Spirit by faith in the SON CEASES to be a Jew and becomes a NEW CREATION IN CHRIST.

Tom, I love you brother but Seth is speaking according to Scripture on this. Christ came to make a NEW HUMANITY.  :HeartThrob:

Eph 2:13
But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

Eph 2:14
For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility,

Eph 2:15
by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace,

Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

Amen Julie. The idea that there is a separate way for Jews from Gentiles is an invention of AE Knoch to explain what he assumed were differences in the apostles letters. There is no difference in what they wrote the all harmonize

[Seth]

2 Peter 3
14Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. 15And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 17Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. 18But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever.

[eaglesway]

In my opinion the bride and the body are one and the same. The members all have one Head,(eph 1) and they are "the fulness of him who fills all in all". Two become one flesh and Paul uses the metaphor of marriage, "no man hates his own flesh(body)". Betrothed to Christ, in Ephesians Paul speaks of the body and bride simultaneously, as he does throughout his wrtings "I hav betrothed you to one Lord".

Bridegroom/Virgins/Bride
Head/Members/Body
Chief cornerstone/Living Stones/ Tabernacle

A careful study involving a cross section on all these reveal they are all alike metaphors for the same relationship viewed in different aspects.

In Romans  we see the olive tree in which the branches that were cut off were replaced with branches grafted in from a "wild olive tree" and those who are grafted in are likewise suited for "pruning" if they become self-righteous or unbelieving or exalt themselves over the former branches. All one tree.

One new man. One head. One vine.

Eventually the whole world will be grafted into it :o)