"It is impossible to renew unto repentance" (Hebrews 6)

[Seth]

Many people with questions about universal salvation may ask about Hebrews 6, where it says that it is impossible for those who were made partakers of the Holy Ghost to repent if they backslide. Let's take the larger context into consideration. My thoughts on this passage will be informed on my beliefs about what they scriptures say about judgment and how it fits into God's plan of salvation.

Hebrews 6
1Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment (aionios krima - judgment of the age).

3 And this will we do, if God permit.

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: 8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

A few things to note about this passage. In particular notice the "if God permit" phrase. That is very important. It shows God in complete control. After all, Jesus said this:

Mark 10
27And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.

So if we look at Hebrews 6 in context, we see God in complete control, not saying that anything is impossible with him. To harmonize scripture, it shows that it is impossible for MAN to renew them unto repentance, only because God does not permit that if they crucify his son afresh by their actions.

The wrath of God is revealed against all unrighteousness of men, in that God turns them over to a reprobate mind to be judged, he will "turn them over a reprobate mind" so that they "receive in themselves that recompense for their error." (Romans 1:27-28). For some, God will send strong delusion to believe a lie and be judged by it (2 Thess 2:10-12). When God turns anyone over to their own reprobate mind and sends strong delusion, they won't be renewed unto repentance by man's efforts.

Of course, ETers think this is talking about "hell" because of the word "burned." However, they ignore the fact that the entire verse is speaking in metaphor: "But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned." Why are they so ready to accept the "thorns and briars" as a metaphor, but not the "burning?"

Clearly this metaphorical burning is speaking about backslidden Christians, not the unconverted. That term "thorns and briars" has another scriptural connection:

Isaiah 9:18-20
His anger is not turned away, his hand is still upraised. Surely WICKEDNESS burns like a fire; it consumes briers and thorns, it sets the forest thickets ablaze, so that it rolls upward in a column of smoke. By the wrath of the Lord Almighty the land will be scorched and the people will be fuel for the fire; they will not spare one another. On the right they will devour, but still be hungry; on the left they will eat, but not be satisfied.

Yes, the whole phrase in Hebrews 6 is a metaphor. When God turns anyone over to a reprobate mind, he is turning them over to the destruction of their own sin to be humbled by it. I discuss this in more detail about a paper regarding the Judgment of the World. The purpose is to negate their pride, to humble them like Prodigal Sons.

That is why "their end is to be burned." Jesus talked about a burning at the "consummation of the age":

Matthew  13
49 So shall it be at the end of the world (sunteleia ho aion - consummation of the age): the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, 50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

This is in relation to the Kingdom of God as a net which captures good fish and bad fish. At the end of the age, the fisherman will separate out the good fish from the bad fish. He is not talking about an eternity in literal fire, but for some they will be turned over to a reprobate mind, for wickedness is LIKE a fire which burns up the briars and thorns. This is a "aionios krima" a judgment of the age, not an eternal punishment in literal fire.

It is a judgment as unto the Prodigal Son who met his own end in a fiery furnace of his own wickedness, a judgment that his father turned him over unto, by supplying him with the metaphorical noose. And, since NOTHING is impossible with God, only with man, God will use this judgment to humble all those who have had pleasure in unrighteousness and bring them to a place to call out for a Savior.

[Tom]

Many people with questions about universal salvation may ask about Hebrews 6, where it says that it is impossible for those who were made partakers of the Holy Ghost to repent if they backslide. Let's take the larger context into consideration. My thoughts on this passage will be informed on my beliefs about what they scriptures say about judgment and how it fits into God's plan of salvation.

Hebrews 6
1Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment (aionios krima - judgment of the age).

3 And this will we do, if God permit.

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: 8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

A few things to note about this passage. In particular notice the "if God permit" phrase. That is very important. It shows God in complete control. After all, Jesus said this:

Mark 10
27And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.

So if we look at Hebrews 6 in context, we see God in complete control, not saying that anything is impossible with him. To harmonize scripture, it shows that it is impossible for MAN to renew them unto repentance, only because God does not permit that if they crucify his son afresh by their actions.

The wrath of God is revealed against all unrighteousness of men, in that God turns them over to a reprobate mind to be judged, he will "turn them over a reprobate mind" so that they "receive in themselves that recompense for their error." (Romans 1:27-28). For some, God will send strong delusion to believe a lie and be judged by it (2 Thess 2:10-12). When God turns anyone over to their own reprobate mind and sends strong delusion, they won't be renewed unto repentance by man's efforts.

Of course, ETers think this is talking about "hell" because of the word "burned." However, they ignore the fact that the entire verse is speaking in metaphor: "But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned." Why are they so ready to accept the "thorns and briars" as a metaphor, but not the "burning?"

Clearly this metaphorical burning is speaking about backslidden Christians, not the unconverted. That term "thorns and briars" has another scriptural connection:

Isaiah 9:18-20
His anger is not turned away, his hand is still upraised. Surely WICKEDNESS burns like a fire; it consumes briers and thorns, it sets the forest thickets ablaze, so that it rolls upward in a column of smoke. By the wrath of the Lord Almighty the land will be scorched and the people will be fuel for the fire; they will not spare one another. On the right they will devour, but still be hungry; on the left they will eat, but not be satisfied.

Yes, the whole phrase in Hebrews 6 is a metaphor. When God turns anyone over to a reprobate mind, he is turning them over to the destruction of their own sin to be humbled by it. I discuss this in more detail about a paper regarding the Judgment of the World. The purpose is to negate their pride, to humble them like Prodigal Sons.

That is why "their end is to be burned." Jesus talked about a burning at the "consummation of the age":

Matthew  13
49 So shall it be at the end of the world (sunteleia ho aion - consummation of the age): the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, 50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

This is in relation to the Kingdom of God as a net which captures good fish and bad fish. At the end of the age, the fisherman will separate out the good fish from the bad fish. He is not talking about an eternity in literal fire, but for some they will be turned over to a reprobate mind, for wickedness is LIKE a fire which burns up the briars and thorns. This is a "aionios krima" a judgment of the age, not an eternal punishment in literal fire.

It is a judgment as unto the Prodigal Son who met his own end in a fiery furnace of his own wickedness, a judgment that his father turned him over unto, by supplying him with the metaphorical noose. And, since NOTHING is impossible with God, only with man, God will use this judgment to humble all those who have had pleasure in unrighteousness and bring them to a place to call out for a Savior.

"4 For it is impossible for those once enlightened, besides tasting the celestial gratuity and becoming partakers of holy spirit,
5 and tasting the ideal declaration of God, besides the powerful deeds of the impending eon,
6 and falling aside, to be renewing them again to repentance while crucifying for themselves the Son of God again and holding Him up to infamy." (Hebrews 6:4-6)

"This description applies only to those who participated in the Pentecostal blessings. They were enlightened, they' tasted the celestial gratuity, they became partakers of holy spirit, and God's declaration, and they only experienced the powers of the kingdom eon, and many of them fell aside. These blessings were based on their repentance, or change of mind, which was induced largely by the miracles which they saw. When the kingdom failed to appear, and its powers vanished, their repentance went also. Hence the impossibility of renewing it, for the means which produced it were no longer in evidence. Such a course is not possible in a day of grace, such as we live in. In place of repentance and pardon, we have faith and justification, which know no falling away, being entirely of grace, from first to last." (Concordant Commentary on the New Testament pages 340,341) 

[sheila]

....I see it as a Blaspheming of the Holy spirit. Just as in Ananais and Saphira's case.

  also...Judas..and Saul[Saul prophesied..when spirit come upon him..Saul annointed..then

rejected. David appinted in his stead.....just as Judas chosen then lost his place.......

   to me...all these accounts show..the judgement of the angels that did not keep their positions...

    that followed satan..left their estates in heaven..and cme to the earth...........

   we also see this same judgement on Adam..that was given dominion on the earth..was in

the garden...and cast out of it..

    man bears both images..the image of the corrupt one[satan and his angels who lose out]

and the image of the incorruptible one from heaven[Faithful and True angelic Hosts.......

   one image is of our death..the other of life.

   ....these things are man-i-fest ed[or food for thought from

God..to  teach His children]/showbread.  all things are yours..whether death or life.......
.

[Seth]

I understand that the Concordant group teaches cessation of the gifts of the Spirit, but I don't see any teaching in the Bible where the Spirit is not given to the believer in this modern time. If that were true, then we are NOT the seed of Abraham because we are not inheritors of the promise. I am open minded about the Spirit manifestation in regards to miracles etc. But I do not believe that the Scripture teaches that the Spirit is not given along with the gift of the measure of faith to today's believers.

Here is what I see Paul teaching in regards to the day of Grace in regard to salvation.

Ephesians 2:1-10
And you hath he quickened (brought to life), who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh,fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us.

Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us (brought us to life) together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

For we are HIS workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

In this scripture, GRACE is associated with "being made alive together with Christ (by grace you are saved)." We are made alive together with Christ and therefore by Grace ye are saved, not of your works. The Holy Spirit does the saving work.

Phi 2:12
Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out (Greek - perform outwardly) your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works IN you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.

That's the substitutionary righteousness that saves us from trespasses and sin: for it is GOD in YOU both to will and to WORK his purpose. This what Paul meant when he said "saved by grace" to be made alive with Christ, together so that God can work within us to save us from sin. That is why Paul wants us to perform outwardly the salvation which begins inwardly. That is why it says, God works IN you.

Titus 3:3-7
For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which WE have done, but according to his mercy he saved (healed) us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Notice that we were at ONE TIME foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving lusts, but were saved by the washing and renewing of the Spirit. Here is more detail about that washing.

Titus 2:11-14
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation (healing) hath appeared to all men, Teaching (Greek - paiduo - chastening, scourging) us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us FROM all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

I am not sure what that scripture has to do with the Concordant view of grace and salvation. Paul never mentions the "second resurrection." He focused all his teaching on how by grace, we are made alive together with Christ, so that Christ could purify a people unto himself a people zealous of good works, not abandoning them. His teaching revolved around salvation FROM sin in this present age, and I see no reason to believe that some age has passed which has invalidated this above teaching for the modern day Christian.

I agree with the Concordant publishing concern that we are in a "day of Grace" and I have just posted scripture which informs us as to what Paul taught about this day of Grace and I see no reason to assume that his teaching on grace was for the First Century Christians alone. I see no teaching by Paul that the above descriptions of Grace and its purpose would be changed after the passing of those first Christians.

If people are dead in transgressions today, God has mercy upon them by transforming them by his Spirit in the above way. However, those who crucify the son afresh through lack of renewed repentance have a judgment awaiting...

[WhiteWings]

I understand that the Concordant group teaches cessation of the gifts of the Spirit,

If there are no gifts of the HS then Jesus will not have  a bride because He never was betrothed....

:2c:

[Tom]

http://concordant.org/expohtml/SpiritualEndowments/index.html

[Seth]

From Spiritual Gifts for Today

"Instead of healing we are given grace for our infirmities."

Right. Exactly. Grace for our infirmities.


Phi 2:12
Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out (Greek - perform outwardly) your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works IN you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.

Titus 2:11-14
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation (healing) hath appeared to all men, Teaching (Greek - paiduo - chastening, scourging) us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us FROM all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.


Titus 3:3-7
For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which WE have done, but according to his mercy he saved (healed) us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Does Mr. Knoch deal with Titus 3:3-7 and Titus 2:11-14? Not sure. If you have a paper to link about that, I would like to examine it.

[eaglesway]

Grieve not the Holy Spirit. Quench not the Holy Spirit. Do not spite the Spirit of grace whereby you sealed unto the day of redemption. What is it when you come together? One has psalm, one has revelation, one has a prophesy, one has a tongue, another has an interpretation.

Firstly apostles, then prophets, then teachers, then workers of miracles.....

When He ascended He gave gifts unto men......apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers and evangelists for the equipping of the saints for the work of service for the building up of the body of Christ till we all attain the unity of the faith, unto a mature man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulnes of the son of God.

I have seen the gifts of the Spirit working and when it is in order it is a beautiful thing. Thats just a testimony- not meant to convince anyone of anything but,

I was saved by a direct supernatural revelation of Jesus- I spent the first three or four years of my walk with Christ in a world filled with manifestations of the Spirit and many miracles, healings and other gifts through me and around me. There are ebbs and there are wavs..... but thr Holy Spirit is still active where faith and the unity of the body of Christ provide a tabernacle for God's indwelling and manifest glory.

There's a lot of phony immitations too :o)

[Seth]

To me this whole thing is not about the 1 Cor 12 gifts of the Spirit. I would like know if at least Martin Zender and company believe that we even HAVE the Spirit in the first place. And if so, what do they think the Spirit is for? Certainly NOT simply for the physical miracles alone, but to be QUICKENED together with Christ (by Grace ye are saved)...

[Tom]

From Spiritual Gifts for Today

"Instead of healing we are given grace for our infirmities."

Right. Exactly. Grace for our infirmities.


Phi 2:12
Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out (Greek - perform outwardly) your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works IN you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.

Titus 2:11-14
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation (healing) hath appeared to all men, Teaching (Greek - paiduo - chastening, scourging) us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us FROM all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.


Titus 3:3-7
For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which WE have done, but according to his mercy he saved (healed) us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Does Mr. Knoch deal with Titus 3:3-7 and Titus 2:11-14? Not sure. If you have a paper to link about that, I would like to examine it.

"11 For the saving grace of God made its advent to all humanity,
12 training us that, disowning irreverence and worldly desires, we should be living sanely and justly and devoutly in the current eon,
13 anticipating that happy expectation, even the advent of the glory of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ,
14 Who gives Himself for us, that He should be redeeming us from all lawlessness and be cleansing for Himself a people to be about Him, zealous for ideal acts." (Titus 2:11-14)

"11 The saving grace of God, properly appreciated, has no equal as a means for training God's saints to live acceptably in His sight even in the midst of the abounding evil of this eon. It softens the heart, and attracts the will, and provides the power for putting its precepts into practice. The law was not so. Its demands withered the arm that would fulfill it. In some measure God's grace enables us to anticipate the overwhelming bliss which will be brought to us at His glorious advent, which will mark the end of sin and suffering for His saints.

14 The ransom of Christ has a present power. Lawlessness is that basic conception of sin in which it is viewed as a departure from the normal and natural course of things. The ransom Of Christ will eventually restore us into that ideal condition which conformity to the laws of the universe produces. At present this takes the form of zeal for good deeds." (Concordant Commentary on the New Testament pages 329,330)

"3 For we also were once foolish, stubborn, deceived, slaves of various desires and gratifications, leading a life in malice and envy, detestable, hating one another.
4 Yet when the kindness and fondness for humanity of our Saviour, God, made its advent,
5 not for works which are wrought in righteousness which we do, but according to His mercy, He saves us, through the bath of renascence and renewal of holy spirit,
6 which He pours out on us richly through Jesus Christ, our Saviour,
7 that, being justified in that One's grace, we may be becoming enjoyers, in expectation, of the allotment of life eonian." (Titus 3:3-7)

"3 The emphatic we, repeated in the fifth verse, suggests that the apostle is now referring to himself as one of the Circumcision—those who, indeed, ought to have kept the law and who thought that their salvation depended on their righteousness, but who needed to be regenerated and renewed by the holy Spirit, as the Lord taught Nicodemus (Jn.3:5), according to His mercy.

5 The Septuagint uses this word loutron twice for a bath in the Song of Solomon (4:2, 6:6), but renders laver by another form, louter, in all of its occurrences. Hence it is evident that here it is not the instrument which contained the water, but the element itself which is a figure of renascence. Though literally regeneration, the word is always used in a much looser sense of any renewal, much like our word renascence." (Concordant Commentary on the New Testament page 330)

http://concordant.org/version/CLNT_Intro.htm
http://concordant.org/expohtml/ConcordantCommentary/CC00.htm
http://concordant.org/online/index.html

[Seth]

"11 The saving grace of God, properly appreciated, has no equal as a means for training God's saints to live acceptably in His sight even in the midst of the abounding evil of this eon. It softens the heart, and attracts the will, and provides the power for putting its precepts into practice. The law was not so. Its demands withered the arm that would fulfill it. In some measure God's grace enables us to anticipate the overwhelming bliss which will be brought to us at His glorious advent, which will mark the end of sin and suffering for His saints.

Great, I agree. Therefore, I see no reason that this admonition would not apply to the saints for today. Paul's teaching on Grace has not changed, and there is no scripture to say therefore that falling away from Grace would therefore not necessitate a judgment in the day of the Lord:

Hebrews 6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

John 15
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

[Tom]

To me this whole thing is not about the 1 Cor 12 gifts of the Spirit. I would like know if at least Martin Zender and company believe that we even HAVE the Spirit in the first place. And if so, what do they think the Spirit is for? Certainly NOT simply for the physical miracles alone, but to be QUICKENED together with Christ (by Grace ye are saved)...

http://concordant.org/expohtml/CheckYourPanoply/Panoply016.html

[Seth]

Let us not confuse our spiritual warfare with wicked spirits, with God's use of them in disciplining our flesh. He would have us strong in spirit, but He may also find it best to make us infirm in flesh.

Romans 6
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness. 14 For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under GRACE.

And you know all about what Grace does, right?

[Tom]

"12 Let not Sin, then, be reigning in your mortal body, for you to be obeying its lusts.
13 Nor yet be presenting your members, as implements of injustice, to Sin, but present yourselves to God as if alive from among the dead, and your members as implements of righteousness to God." (Romans 6:12,13)

"12 A realization of our death to sin and life in Christ will give us power to cope with sin, always remembering that sin cannot bring us into disfavor because of the superexceeding grace." (Concordant Commentary on the New Testament page 236)

[Seth]

The verse does not say that sin cannot bring us into disfavor. It says that sin shall not be your master because you are not under Law but under Grace.

Titus 2:11-14
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation (healing) hath appeared to all men, Teaching (Greek - paiduo - chastening, scourging) us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us FROM all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

I'll just keep repeating that scripture over and over and over until the end of time....

[Seth]

It's no different than what John taught

1 John 3:5-9
But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.

Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work. No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

He is teaching sin shall not be your master because you are not under Law but under Grace.

[Tom]

The verse does not say that sin cannot bring us into disfavor. It says that sin shall not be your master because you are not under Law but under Grace.

Titus 2:11-14
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation (healing) hath appeared to all men, Teaching (Greek - paiduo - chastening, scourging) us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us FROM all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

I'll just keep repeating that scripture over and over and over until the end of time....

It seems you disagree with the commentary of one verse and have some other favorite verses that you want to meditate on continuously. You have the links for the commentary if you're interested in searching any other information. I'm not interested in debating the commentary. I forget why this even relates to your original post, but I replied to it. If you're debating something, I don't know what it is. I'm not interested in debating your original post or whatever it is you're debating now anyway. So I guess you need to find a willing opponent, brother, if that's what you're interested in.

[Seth]

I am ready to harmonize ALL the epistles in the new testament to show you that there is no Jew and no Gentile in the body that all share one Gospel and one Living Water. Any time you want to talk about it, let me know.

[Tom]

"27 For whoever are baptized into Christ, put on Christ,
28 in Whom there is no Jew nor yet Greek, there is no slave nor yet free, there is no male and female, for you all are one in Christ Jesus." (Galatians 3:27,28)

"27 Baptism, as practiced in Paul's early ministry, was a symbol of unity with Christ in His death, burial and resurrection. "As many as" shows that not all the Galatians had been baptized. Nevertheless the truth of unity with Christ held for all, for in Him all physical distinctions vanish. In service, or in the Lord, the slave was still a slave, the sexes were still recognized, but in Christ, by faith, all have the same high place of privilege. All are entitled to the promise and the righteousness which comes by faith in God." (Concordant Commentary on the New Testament page 282)

[Seth]

Here is the righteousness which comes by faith: For it is God in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Acts 19
2He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. 3And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. 4Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. 5When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. 7And all the men were about twelve.

[Seth]

The manner in which this links back to the original post is that we are in a day of Grace, but Grace causes us to abandon ungodliness. If those who have tasted of the Spirit crucify the Son afresh by abandoning their repentance of sin by Grace, then all that is left for the briars and thorns is to be burned...

There is no scriptural basis to believe that we now live in an age of Grace different from what Paul taught in regards to abandoning ungodliness and the importance of performing outwardly your salvation with fear and trembling.

[Tom]

I have no idea what you're talking about, bro. If you're saying that believing some of the spiritual endowments of the Pentecostal era are no longer operating is "ungodliness," I disagree. Part of my search for the truth, after I left the Catholic Church and investigated psychedelics then Zen and Taoist philosophies, was to spend some time with some Charismatic folks. Because I didn't know better, I thought their worship was the real deal for awhile, but I've since changed my mind. If anything is an example of what you call "ungodliness," it's the deceptive spirit in the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement.

http://concordant.org/expohtml/SpiritualEndowments/index.html

[JulieTang84]

Paul was speaking metaphorically in more ways than one.

Yes, man can have a change of heart. Be always on guard we are told

Mar 4:15
And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Note Pauls words here: The Word that was SOWN in their hearts.

Now how is it that truth given by Spirit can be discarded like a piece of trash by a mere human, when we are told Satan is needed to TAKE IT AWAY?

What of the casual passer-by that hears the truth, likes it and is all gun-ho only to lose interest almost as quick?
   
Luk 8:12
Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

Well such as these suffer as bad as fate. What Chance does either group have that are not wearing the full suit of armor of the Spirit have?

On whose instructions is Satan acting?

More than likely Paul was emphasizing the need to stand guard and to be always alert. Isn't Satan waiting still, anyone with a complacent heart?

Nothing is what it seems.....

Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

[Seth]

I have no idea what you're talking about, bro. If you're saying that believing some of the spiritual endowments of the Pentecostal era are no longer operating is "ungodliness," I disagree. Part of my search for the truth, after I left the Catholic Church and investigated psychedelics then Zen and Taoist philosophies, was to spend some time with some Charismatic folks. Because I didn't know better, I thought their worship was the real deal for awhile, but I've since changed my mind. If anything is an example of what you call "ungodliness," it's the deceptive spirit in the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement.

http://concordant.org/expohtml/SpiritualEndowments/index.html

Whoa, there is a serious misunderstanding, and if that is on my part then I apologize. In no way to I believe that a belief in cessation amounts to ungodliness.

Here was your quote in response to my OP

In place of repentance and pardon, we have faith and justification, which know no falling away, being entirely of grace, from first to last."

All the scriptures I have posted until now have shown that Grace is for keeping us in a state of continual repentance from sin. Grace does not replace "repentance and pardon" it is a continual causation of repentance in the believer. The Holy Spirit FEEDS our roots so that we continue in a state of repentance from sin by teaching us to abandon ungodliness and live holy in this present world.

That has nothing to do with the 1 Cor 12 gifts of the Spirit. Cessation is a hot topic issue, but I think, not the point of what I am saying. HAVING the Holy Spirit is the point, whether or not it manifests in those ways. And if we have the Spirit, everything Paul taught about Grace, again is in accordance to a maintaining of repentance, not to be replaced by some other form of Grace for this present time.

What this shows is that in no way was Hebrews 6 written as an admonition limited to 1st Century Christians but continues in application to modern day Christians.

[Seth]

More than likely Paul was emphasizing the need to stand guard and to be always alert. Isn't Satan waiting still, anyone with a complacent heart?

Yes, I think so. I think everything in the Gospel speaks to the heart of man.