The nature of Gehenna and the Lake of Fire as judgments

[Seth]

Hello everyone. I used to frequently come to Tentmaker Forum to have fellowship with people who have a like mind about universal salvation. I recognize some names here still.

One of the reasons I wanted to open up this thread on Gehenna and the Lake of Fire is because I had what I feel are some revelations (yeah I said it, LOL) about what will happen in judgment. My view on the Lake of Fire and Gehenna has changed much. Though I still see it as a purifying fire, just not in the way I used to. I now see why there was warning and pleading regarding the Gospel, but why there was still so much joy about the salvation of all mankind.

There was a huge debate a long time ago about the purpose of Gehenna, and that Jesus did warn us not to be thrown "both body and soul" into Gehenna, whereas he did tell us to use the fire of Gehenna for spiritual cleansing.

This just told me I had some real thinking to do. I used to think that maybe the Lake of Fire was one big Baptism of the Spirit, but no, then Jesus wouldn't have warned us to stay away from Gehenna, both body and soul.

I now believe that Gehenna/The Lake of Fire is in God turning man over to his own sin to be humbled in such destruction, to remember the father, repent, and return home. That is a purifying process, but not something anyone should want to be "bound hand and foot" and "body and soul."

In other words, I don't want my body and soul to be destroyed in Gehenna. I want my soul to enjoy salvation from sin always even unto the end of the ages. I found a lot of scriptures that speak to this interpretation. I will give you two and then post the paper I wrote about it. I am of course, open to any discussion about it, thoughts, feelings, disagreements even.

See if you notice a similarity to a rising of smoke as in Revelation 14 (for the smoke of their torment rises for the ages of the ages)

Isaiah 9:18-19
For wickedness burneth as the fire: it shall devour the briers and thorns (...and tares?...), and shall kindle in the thickets of the forest, and they shall mount up like the lifting up of smoke. Through the wrath of the Lord of hosts is the land darkened, and the people shall be as the fuel of the fire: no man shall spare his brother.

I compare to:

1 Cor 5:1-5
It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that even pagans do not tolerate: A man is sleeping with his father's wife. And you are proud! Shouldn't you rather have gone into mourning and have put out of your fellowship  the man who has been doing this? For my part, even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. As one who is present with you in this way, I have already passed judgment in the name of our Lord Jesus on the one who has been doing this.

So when you are assembled and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.

Like I said, there are many more scriptures that I believe attest to this, many more. And so I wrote a paper that became longer than I expected. It ended up being two parts, but it will go through and explain my position on this. To me this reconciles pretty much everything in scripture I wondered about. The Lord is not counting man's sins against him, but he will allow those sins to humble them so that every knee will bow and every tongue confess.

The Judgment of the World by the Cross (Part 1)
The Judgment of the World by the Cross (Part 2)

I am not saying that my position isn't debatable in every small point (I make mistakes as a human being does), but just that I feel there is a lot of scriptural support for it.

God bless you.

[Tom]

Here's some good information about "Gehenna" and "the lake of fire."

http://concordant.org/expohtml/DeathAndJudgment/TheGehennaOfFire.html

http://concordant.org/expohtml/DeathAndJudgment/TheLakeOfFire.html

[Seth]

Thank you Tom. Yes, I have read those. I definitely have a different take on that. I believe Paul's Gospel coincides perfectly with those of Peter, James and John. I think Gehenna is a wider judgment which will produce the fruit that Jesus desires.

[sheila]

TY Seth...I reallyenjoyed reading that..... venry tmely...andthenHe will say unto His angels....

  first gather the tares andbundle them for burning......then gathermywheat into the

   the storehouse[Bridal City]

        man naturally see's the death of his flesh...as a horrible thing.....but sin in the flesh is

  condemned......and the death of our sinful flesh..is the way back home to Our Father...

    He causes those in the ash heap torise..and sitwith the princes of the people........

  the ashes of a red heifer and the fatted calf killed...and the prodigal returns home

    when Jesus spoke of Hisdeath...He spoke of His return unto the Father..and our Father

   He said..I amthe way..and ye know the way

       this world is stored upfor fire...and shall become the LOF...the fire comes dwnfrom heaven

andcnsumes those that surround the camp of the Holy city.

[Seth]

TY Seth...I reallyenjoyed reading that..... venry tmely...andthenHe will say unto His angels....

  first gather the tares andbundle them for burning......then gathermywheat into the

   the storehouse[Bridal City]

        man naturally see's the death of his flesh...as a horrible thing.....but sin in the flesh is

  condemned......and the death of our sinful flesh..is the way back home to Our Father...

    He causes those in the ash heap torise..and sitwith the princes of the people........

  the ashes of a red heifer and the fatted calf killed...and the prodigal returns home

    when Jesus spoke of Hisdeath...He spoke of His return unto the Father..and our Father

   He said..I amthe way..and ye know the way

       this world is stored upfor fire...and shall become the LOF...the fire comes dwnfrom heaven

andcnsumes those that surround the camp of the Holy city.

Amen!  :thumbsup:

I think not alot of Christians understand that tares look like wheat. He's going to bind up people in the wedding party wearing the wrong robes, bind them up "hand and foot" and throw them into the furnace.

Revelation 19:8
And to her was granted that she (the Bride) should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

[sheila]

yes, achange f garments is due.....though we d not wish to be 'unclothed' but to be clothed

  inChrist..........terrestial andcelestial bodies........

[joeteekay]

Probably up for discussion but my take is:

Scripture talks about Gehenna, Gehenna Fire, the Lake of fire and other forms of fire.

And there are many Scriptures showing that there will be "Judgment" upon God's Elect and upon the wicked. Many scriptures reveal that this Judgment is symbolically represented to be by FIRE.

Is Gehenna fire and the and the lake of fire the identical fire? I do not think so.

Are they all the same? Probably not. Can't fire be described differently depending on its intensity and specific purpose?  God never says that His fire is one fire. Sure, we can infer this. Most definitely, God's ultimate purpose is to reconcile all of humanity to Himself through fire.

Is the lake of fire where all humanity will be judged , but not the saints. The lake of fire is only mentioned in Revelation and no where else. Why is that? Is it because the lake of fire is for all of humanity who are not the Elect. Therefore the lake of fire would occur at the white throne judgment. The LOF pertains only to the final judgment.

We read about Gehenna fire, and unquenchable fire, and eonian fire, and the furnace of fire, and being salted with fire, and the lake of fire.

Yes fire is how God judges, but can't all the different terms describing God's fire have different attributes, depending on it's specific purpose and time? Many references to God's fire apart from that described in Revelation are for the Saints, but the Lake of Fire is kept for those in the final judgment, that is the Lake of Fire. The Lake of Fire is unique in that it is reserved for the final judgment. Therefore there are different forms of His fire depending on His specific purpose and time.

The sins of mankind are of all types. Some are more heinous than others. The evil people of history will be subject to a harsher judging than those who do good by this worlds standards, but are not the Elect.

Luk_12:47  And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
Luk_12:48  But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

God's fire which is also symbolic of being beaten by stripes, some with many and some with few.

From Seth in  http://mercifultruth.com/links-savedbygrace.html
Obviously, Jesus was using the Valley of Hinnom as a metaphor which the King James Version translators interpreted to be a place called "hell." How do you know they are correct? Do they have scriptures to prove this interpretation? NO! They all just assumed! But, in Part Two, you will see exactly what the metaphor of the Valley of Hinnom means, through the scripture, not through assumption. Hint: It has nothing to do with what Christendom interprets to be a place called "hell."

Yes  a metaphor. Yes very important. Because

Mat_18:9  And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire (Gehenna).

So this not literal. It is a metaphor. Has to do with God's chastisement for sins.

[Seth]

Is the lake of fire where all humanity will be judged , but not the saints. The lake of fire is only mentioned in Revelation and no where else. Why is that? Is it because the lake of fire is for all of humanity who are not the Elect. Therefore the lake of fire would occur at the white throne judgment. The LOF pertains only to the final judgment.

Yes exactly. This applies both to Gehenna AND the Lake of Fire, which I believe to be the same thing. The Lake/Gehenna judgment is for those who fail to "cut out their eyes" and throw them into the fire OUTSIDE the city to be "burned away." They do this from within "the city" so that they retain their clean "robes." I see this as simply the continuing action of chastising Grace to subdue the flesh from "inside the city" or "inside the bride." They do this so that the fire of the Valley of Hinnom does not consume them completely. Those who overcome have been always doing this. But those within the "wedding party" who refuse grace will be bound up, hand and foot (walk and works) and thrown outside to be "burned up" both body and soul.

The reason I believe the LOF and Gehenna to be the same is that both are positioned outside the city of Jerusalem, and in the spirit, New Jerusalem is the bride. Everyone outside that city is in Gehenna/LOF.

Yes fire is how God judges, but can't all the different terms describing God's fire have different attributes, depending on it's specific purpose and time?

Oh yes absolutely. I see fire as a general representation of God's destruction of the flesh. For the saints, he has "fiery trials" which according to Peter are more precious than gold because they try the saints unto being transformed to be more Christlike in patience and endurance. He has Grace which chastens us to abandon ungodliness.

For others he has Gehenna, a fire which consumes both body and soul unto their humbling that they may receive Grace.

[WhiteWings]

Is the lake of fire where all humanity will be judged , but not the saints.

The saints are judged before. Judgement is overly simply put seperating the good from the bad. To know soemone is a saint some judgement has to be done. Judgement, btw, isn't always negative.

The lake of fire is only mentioned in Revelation and no where else. Why is that?

I'm because a priest described his vision with priestly terminology.
It's new to us but even a Jewish child knew what it was/is.

Is it because the lake of fire is for all of humanity who are not the Elect. Therefore the lake of fire would occur at the white throne judgment. The LOF pertains only to the final judgment.

It surely happens at the final judgement. Personally I think a great many people got their LoF over the past millennia.

We read about Gehenna fire, and unquenchable fire, and eonian fire, and the furnace of fire, and being salted with fire, and the lake of fire.

Which all point to Temple rituals.

Yes fire is how God judges,

That's a tricky one. God judges by fire because it's the Law itself. But it's also an "after judgement tool".

but can't all the different terms describing God's fire have different attributes, depending on it's specific purpose and time?

I think there are only 2 types of fire in the whole Bible. Natural fire and Godly fire.

The sins of mankind are of all types. Some are more heinous than others. The evil people of history will be subject to a harsher judging than those who do good by this worlds standards, but are not the Elect.

Fire=Law.
Everyone is cast into the fire/law. Compare it to human court. One big law; but an almost unlimited possibility of verdicts. Charges from the accuser dropped. A tiny fine. A huge fine. 1 week in jail. Lifetime. etc etc.
LoF is the same. Some will be minimally hurt by it. Others get heavy stuff

God's fire which is also symbolic of being beaten by stripes, some with many and some with few.

That's correct. See above.


My view: http://home.online.nl/spamfree/

[Seth]

I agree, God's Word will be part of the judgment, though maybe in a different way. If by Law you mean Law of Moses, I think that is where I would differ. The Law of Moses brought wrath in that it bound us to sin. Jesus brought mercy in that he sets us free from sin, something the Law of Moses could never do in that nobody can work to gain the Holy Spirit as wages.

John 12: 47-48
And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

I don't believe they will be judged by Moses (who Christ clearly distinguished himself from in the Gospels), though God gave Moses those words. They will be judged by the words Jesus spoke. If you pick up a King James Version Red Letter edition, all those red words have SUPREME authority in the universe.

Jesus' Gospel can be put simply this way: Come and all ye that are athirst come and drink the water of life freely.

They will be judged by those words in the lake of fire because those words are not separate from "Repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand." They will remember that Jesus gave them the words of Life and they had murdered him for it.

We see a taste of that with Peter.

Matthew 26
72 And again he denied with an oath, I do not know the man. (the tongue is a fire of the Valley of Hinnom)
73 And after a while came unto him they that stood by, and said to Peter, Surely thou also art one of them; for thy speech bewrayeth thee.
74 Then began he to curse and to swear, (the tongue is a fire of the Valley of Hinnom) saying, I know not the man. And immediately the cock crew.
75 And Peter remembered the word of Jesus, which said unto him, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly.


Do you see how peter was not judged by Jesus, who came to save him? Peter was judged by Christ's words which Peter remembered. All this "weeping and gnashing of teeth" occurred when those words exposed his weakness and his slavery to the fear that destroyed his pride and all his boasting. In as much as Peter was being burned alive by the furnace of his tongue, in denying Christ three times, he then remembered the words Jesus spoke and was judged accordingly unto regret.

Peter found out he had no strength and Jesus knew it, and told him so. It was in being turned over to his sin that Peter finally understood his weakness. He needed a Day of Pentecost to be given the strength to grow strong in the good soil. All those who will utterly perish in the LOF will be judged by the words of the Gospel of Christ: "come drink freely."

Those words judge the people in LOF because it exposes the truth: YOU ARE THIRSTY. You are lacking. You need to repent. Those words are found in "all who are athirst come drink freely." They allow for an escape from the condemnation that is in sin, but since nothing that defiles may enter the city, those words cause the flesh to be left behind.

[WhiteWings]

If by Law you mean Law of Moses, I think that is where I would differ.

The divine law applied correctly.

The Law of Moses brought wrath in that it bound us to sin. Jesus brought mercy in that he sets us free from sin, something the Law of Moses could never do in that nobody can work to gain the Holy Spirit as wages.

The Law exposes sin. Sin=debt. Jesus paid the debt. Imo living in/under grace has nothing to do with laws being removed but debt being paid.

Jesus' Gospel can be put simply this way: Come and all ye that are athirst come and drink the water of life freely.

What about thiefs, murders, etc shall not enter the city?

[marie glen]

What about thiefs, murders, etc shall not enter the city?

Amen, one cannot enter the city unless they've been born again..

I believe God iS Life and Perfection, which outside of, is outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth.. Cannot enter the city unless born again/perfect, I believe, is an eternal and an inherent in all things truth.
:smile:

[marie glen]

Hello everyone. I used to frequently come to Tentmaker Forum to have fellowship with people who have a like mind about universal salvation. I recognize some names here still.

One of the reasons I wanted to open up this thread on Gehenna and the Lake of Fire is because I had what I feel are some revelations (yeah I said it, LOL) about what will happen in judgment. My view on the Lake of Fire and Gehenna has changed much. Though I still see it as a purifying fire, just not in the way I used to. I now see why there was warning and pleading regarding the Gospel, but why there was still so much joy about the salvation of all mankind.

There was a huge debate a long time ago about the purpose of Gehenna, and that Jesus did warn us not to be thrown "both body and soul" into Gehenna, whereas he did tell us to use the fire of Gehenna for spiritual cleansing.

This just told me I had some real thinking to do. I used to think that maybe the Lake of Fire was one big Baptism of the Spirit, but no, then Jesus wouldn't have warned us to stay away from Gehenna, both body and soul.

I now believe that Gehenna/The Lake of Fire is in God turning man over to his own sin to be humbled in such destruction, to remember the father, repent, and return home. That is a purifying process, but not something anyone should want to be "bound hand and foot" and "body and soul."

In other words, I don't want my body and soul to be destroyed in Gehenna. I want my soul to enjoy salvation from sin always even unto the end of the ages. I found a lot of scriptures that speak to this interpretation. I will give you two and then post the paper I wrote about it. I am of course, open to any discussion about it, thoughts, feelings, disagreements even.

See if you notice a similarity to a rising of smoke as in Revelation 14 (for the smoke of their torment rises for the ages of the ages)

Isaiah 9:18-19
For wickedness burneth as the fire: it shall devour the briers and thorns (…and tares?…), and shall kindle in the thickets of the forest, and they shall mount up like the lifting up of smoke. Through the wrath of the Lord of hosts is the land darkened, and the people shall be as the fuel of the fire: no man shall spare his brother.

I compare to:

1 Cor 5:1-5
It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that even pagans do not tolerate: A man is sleeping with his father's wife. And you are proud! Shouldn't you rather have gone into mourning and have put out of your fellowship  the man who has been doing this? For my part, even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. As one who is present with you in this way, I have already passed judgment in the name of our Lord Jesus on the one who has been doing this.

So when you are assembled and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.

Like I said, there are many more scriptures that I believe attest to this, many more. And so I wrote a paper that became longer than I expected. It ended up being two parts, but it will go through and explain my position on this. To me this reconciles pretty much everything in scripture I wondered about. The Lord is not counting man's sins against him, but he will allow those sins to humble them so that every knee will bow and every tongue confess.

The Judgment of the World by the Cross (Part 1)
The Judgment of the World by the Cross (Part 2)

I am not saying that my position isn't debatable in every small point (I make mistakes as a human being does), but just that I feel there is a lot of scriptural support for it.

God bless you.

hi! :smile: very interesting and a lot of truth!
Gehenna, as we know, was the 'dump' where even the bodies of criminals were thrown.. so if your hand wanted to do evil/crime, you'd be better off (greek drama sense) cutting off your hand and throwing it into this gehenna dump.. (which will be the same locale for the last battle called Armageddon, I believe)

Jesus told the pharisees unless they repent they would "die in their sins" which I believe means they would rise still "in their sins" - the 2nd resurrection, far inferior, at least for a time/age? than the joyful 1st one.

It's my belief all are judged pretty much in this life (life as we presently know it and in the inferior body as opposed to the new body)

"Fiery judgment" was always understood by Israel to be earthly (or personal) calamities.. which have the purpose of purifying and reforming

The Lake of Fire, the 2nd death, imo, if one has continued to refuse to *believe* throughout the day (imo,age) of the review of all things, all human history, etc (the White Throne judgment) -- well after the unveiling of all truth by the demonstration that all things built on sand can only collapse (by the Apocalypse the culmination of the lesson man is learning) -- and if after they have experienced being resurrected and after they have witnessed and lived through the long day of 'judgment' (truth and collapse thoroughly reviewed & engraved on the heart, mind and psyche of all) ...if after all this one still has a hardened heart toward God, they will go to the LOF, the 2nd death/nonlife.

BUT! I believe aLL will have been wooed and won and purified/reformed during that long day of review called "Judgment Day" (after all, who or what, can prevent HIS will?) ..the very same process that won over 'the elect' will simply be the same process for the rest.. Imo, the onLy reason aLL are not of the "elect" is because in a (truth proving) drama  (like in a movie) you need more than one character..

It's my belief the "beast and false prophet" who are thrown into the LOF at the Lord's return are institutions of man active at the time of His return.. not humans at all.. Rev 13:1-10, if we read, imo, is the big beast of rev 13, as opposed to the little (vs 11-18) whose number (of a man) we have (actually a two horned office, 13:13 ='ing the splitting of the atom of 1945, surely?? and one day the 'little' beast will give breath/life/authority to the big beast/world beast or, that is, a world governing body).

And the false prophet being THE false teaching which most turned western civilization, once called "Christendom" on its ear.. another thing active at the time of Jesus' return, but not a person.. began as a man, but then is our white frocked magician who does many modern wonders and miracles, including providing the fire of 13:13 and providing the 666 apparatus (we can already see coming into being)

It's my belief no humans in the 2nd death/nonlife.. which was "created for the devil and his angels" which is where, to my mind, perhaps, the age during comes in.. or not.

[sheila]

what about theives murderers etc outside......the city is a city of Light[the Lamp is the Fatherand

the Lamb] taught ofGod,Jesus andHoly spirit intruth...it is a city of spiritual truth..not lying

vile dctrines..such asmis led  Adaam/Eveintdisobediance/sin......and brought death.........

  no temptation of evil contrast spirit to lead into fornication,idolatry...corruptin/filth.......

     we goinandoutofthe spiritualcityuntil thetime weenterandcome out no more.....

  inthe spirit..........city weseek not builtby human hands...flesh andbloodcan notinherit it


       you must be born again ofthe spirit,born aboveofthis city.....when He writes up the people

   this andthat one wereborn in her..............

......the camp of that Holy city inthe earthissurroundedby all thedeceived/blinded Gog and

Magog crowd....you may even liken the camp to our newspirit born inner man surrounded by

the sin in our flesh[old man Adam that shall perish] Hebrews 11;3 some faced jeersand

floggings, while still others were chained and putin prison,stoned sawed intow,put todeath by

the swrd.....they WENT ABOUT IN SHEEPSKINS AND GOATSKINS,destitute persecuted and mis-

treated-the world was not worthy of them. They wandered indeserts and mountains

and incaves andholes inthe ground......

   itis alway like this for the inner spiritual manthat seeks to worshipGod in spirit andtruth

          ....you shall be hated of all nations because of my name[Rev 20;8]

       ....the flesh shall return unt the dust from which itcome...andthe spirit shall return

unto God

[Seth]

The Law exposes sin. Sin=debt. Jesus paid the debt. Imo living in/under grace has nothing to do with laws being removed but debt being paid.

Jesus didn't just pay a price to forgive us of sin, but to DELIVER US from death in sin. He would be unmerciful if he said we were cured of our ailments but we weren't, though he has forgiven us by way of establishing peace by not counting sins against us. The Law exposes sin in that it makes us more sinful the more we try to follow it because we are "carnal, sold under sin."

We can stop being sold under sin by the living power of the Holy Spirit which functions through grace:

Titus 2:11-14
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation (sozo - healing) hath appeared to all men, Teaching (Greek - paiduo - chastening) us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

That is how by grace we are both forgiven of sin, yet also chastened of the Lord to be freed from sin.

So there are a few things I know about "The Day of the Lord":

1 Thess 5:1-3
Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

1 Cor 5:1-5
When you are assembled and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved (sozo - healed)...on the day of the Lord.

For everyone who finds themselves outside the city, the flesh will be destroyed by SATAN in the Day of the Lord. Satan is not the Divine Law. The Law is not sin. That is why destruction will come upon them suddenly as a labor pains on a pregnant woman. Grace is like taking an epidural. You can get rid of the sin without the labor pain of being destroyed by Satan, for God has not appointed us to wrath. In other words, "judge (krino) yourselves that you not be condemned (katakrino - judged-down, judged against) with the world." That's what cutting your eyes out and throwing them into the fire is all about, rather than being thrown into Gehenna both body and soul.

The Prodigal Son did not attain salvation from his sin until he had the pride knocked out of him and THEN he remembered his father. There are two operations in the LOF: Flesh destroyed by Satan, and the Word of God to say: you are thirsty, take some water. In other words: repent for the kingdom of God is at hand.

Peter is saying that they will perish (be spoiled by depravity) by "their own corruption."

2 Peter 2:12
But these (the wicked), as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish (Greek - kataphtheiro - spoil entirely, be depraved) in their OWN corruption;

That's Satan at work destroying the flesh, as had happened with the Prodigal Son. This is all according to be trampled in the winepress of God's wrath, that they may be HUMBLED. That's the point of the Day of the Lord to make them humble to receive grace and it is a labor pain.

Jesus' Gospel can be put simply this way: Come and all ye that are athirst come and drink the water of life freely.

What about thiefs, murders, etc shall not enter the city?

Where did the Prodigal Son repent? Outside his father's city. That is where we all come to genuine repentance. After the wrath of our own sin shows us we need a savior. THEN, we enter the city. When they enter, it will be because they repented and died to those sins so that they are no longer those things.

1 Cor 6:9-11
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

And again, here is why they are not those things anymore:

Titus 2:11-14
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation (sozo - healing) hath appeared to all men, Teaching (Greek - paiduo - chastening) us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

The Substitutionary Atonement doctrine of Orthodox Christianity exists because they all believe in Hell. It helps them not feel scared. So the Substitutionary Atonement doctrine tells them that they can be saved from hell without the above operation of Grace in their lives. Hell doesn't exists so we don't need to be scare about it. Salvation (healing) from sin tells us that  through repentance of sin, we can be set free from sin itself by the continued renewing and regeneration of the Spirit.

[sheila]

    what if...our first death[appointed unto all  men]is our deathin Adam...andour subsequent

  first resurrectionis ournewness in life of Christ[we died].  And oursecound death...is the death

inthe likenessof Christ[first resurrection will not be harmedofthesecounddeath]?


  the smallchild shaall putit'shand intheserpentsnest andnotbe harmed...there shall beno

harm on all my Holy mountain....they shall handleserpents,lay theirhands onthe sick

  drink poison...etc.

   andthe secundresurrectionwouldbe...those with a mix of tares/wheat.......that fight against

  the camp of the Holy city/first resurrection group?[unlawful mix doctrines]

    first resurrectinspiritandtruth raised up inChrist...secoundresurrection mix of wheat/tares

  carnal/spiritual mix...ofwhich firewill burn the tares fromthem...seperating wheat inthem

from tares

.....anybody ever thing ofitthat way?

[Seth]

I am starting to see that nobody inside the Bride of Christ (who is not a tare) is appointed unto a second death. The reason is because they were already once dead IN sin. And now they are already dead TO sin. There is no more death for them to be in. Their job is to call everybody out of the fire and repent as they have already done. The overcomer is not appointed to the wrath of the Day of the Lord.

I believe the second death is death in sin unto destruction of the flesh unto an invitation to come drink of the water of life as the overcomer has done.

[WhiteWings]

The Law exposes sin. Sin=debt. Jesus paid the debt. Imo living in/under grace has nothing to do with laws being removed but debt being paid.

Jesus didn't just pay a price to forgive us of sin, but to DELIVER US from death in sin.

That's the same.

[Seth]

It's not the same. Forgiveness of sin means that sin is not held against you. Deliverance from sin is when Grace chastises us to abandon ungodliness (ie to stop sinning).

[Seth]

It's like your Avatar section reads: "Yahshua heals"

Heals us of what? According to Romans 7, what is it in our flesh that causes us to be contrary to God?

[WhiteWings]

The wages of sin is death.
We aren't saved FROM death but OUT OF death.
:2c:

[Seth]

We are saved from out of death by being saved from that which causes death.

Matthew 1:20-21
An angel from the Lord came to (Joseph) in a dream. The angel said, "Joseph, the baby that Mary will have is from the Holy Spirit. Go ahead and marry her. Then after her baby is born, name him Jesus, because he will save (sozo - heal) his people from (Greek apo - to separate from) their SIN."

The angel did not say: "he shall save his people from hell." or "from punishment for sin" or "from not being forgiven for sin" or "from death."

Those things follow (except hell which does not exist).

The angel said he shall save his people FROM their sin.

When Jesus healed physical ailments, he didn't say "you're cured!" without actually curing them. Same with spiritual ailments.

2 Thessalonians 2:13
But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation (sozo - made whole, healed) through sanctification of the Spirit AND belief of the truth.

[rosered]

  Hi Seth !!
  its good to see you back again !   I love what your sharing and see it very much  the same way ! we always agreed alot in the past   as I recall .
  I  too  see this short time  that we are in the flesh   and the devil has this short time to destroy it
   for   the days of our flesh was shortened   from   1000  years    Adams flesh ended at  930 years   to 70 years in the Psalms   80 by grace   and than we FLY away !!
Jesus is the resurrection and the Life !  this to me is the first and only death some will experience  here as others  will undergo the 2nd death    that harms them  , note its harm   , I see this as the sting of the tormentors of Rev 9  .. the 5 months ! labour pains    , and its always about removing the PRIDE  and   false  images and lies  and murderous hearts !
just a few thoughts  , love how you covered much in a few posts!   my  scripture site is not working so  , I just   winged it lol  :laughing7:

[Seth]

  Hi Seth !!
  its good to see you back again !   I love what your sharing and see it very much  the same way ! we always agreed alot in the past   as I recall .
  I  too  see this short time  that we are in the flesh   and the devil has this short time to destroy it
   for   the days of our flesh was shortened   from   1000  years    Adams flesh ended at  930 years   to 70 years in the Psalms   80 by grace   and than we FLY away !!
Jesus is the resurrection and the Life !  this to me is the first and only death some will experience  here as others  will undergo the 2nd death    that harms them  , note its harm   , I see this as the sting of the tormentors of Rev 9  .. the 5 months ! labour pains    , and its always about removing the PRIDE  and   false  images and lies  and murderous hearts !
just a few thoughts  , love how you covered much in a few posts!   my  scripture site is not working so  , I just   winged it lol  :laughing7:

Me too! I have been thinking about the connection between Revelation and the 10 plagues of Moses. 10 Commandments: the strength of sin is the Law. Locusts tormenting man....sin tormenting man? I think there is a case to be made for it but I haven't looked into it all the way. I think it's interesting how the locusts have human faces and take on human characteristics ("for they devour eachother")

[Seth]

Also, interesting how the smoke from the abyss (a very low dark place) rises up (pride) to blot out the sun (the Light)....