there's only One source of Goodness

[marie glen]

Imagine, even Jesus said "why call Me good?"!! "there's only one good.."

I truly believe the only one source of any and all goodness is the Father Almighty..

There's nothing in us that contributes to our having been elected (by God) to come to the faith in this lifetime. If there was or is anything, it's only because He put it there!

More and more I'm convinced that there's really only one thing (mostly) separating UR from the 'rest of' the faith. The ET vision and belief of the LOF as something 'for ever' and well, torturous. I think the LOF, as the second death (as opposed to lakes of fire as fiery judgments/consequences culminating in man's splitting of the atom which has been on 'pause' - rev 7:1) and the second death as like with death and the grave.. they will be "gone" (Strong's#?) Imo, LOF as with the grave and death, equals gone-ness.

Although we all, each and every one of us "have the sentence of death in ourselves" 2 Cor 1.. and could have /should have perished (because God is Life and Perfection, so imperfection is the opposite of life, and cannot make itself perfect, what with being imperfect!) But I believe none of us will perish/go to the LOF, that the only one pointed out positively as going to the LOF is the Adversary and (perhaps) his minions.

The other two in Rev 19:20 imo are institutions of men active at the time of Jesus' return.

It's sounds logical as to God's nature and supremacy, than no one should be required more than another in order to repent and believe.. And the fruit seems better as I have stopped running around in circles trying to bend and twist to answer all sorts of 'differences' between UR and ET. Because now I'm seeing only one difference.. Well two, as I see no support for the idea that one can  and must come to faith before death, which of course is all the rage in ET circles. (No disrespect intended:)
                 :hiya:

[sheila]

I have always beleived the 'elect'ineach generation is to proclaim andkeepJubilee[Christ seed]

  toall...failing todothat resultsindesolation..and feilds overgrownwith weeds..that are

fit fornothing but tobe'burned".........the time comes when He destroys those destroying the earth

...particularly at this time...'debt' of all the nations are an issue.....bankers/money changers

those with avarice greed[abomination of desolation] are fomenting insurrections anddesolation

ofthe entire earth.

[JulieTang84]

What a wonderful post Maria  :HeartThrob:

I'm with you on there being ONE primary difference in the "me" of old and the "me" now. LOVE  :HeartThrob:

You so correctly stated that nothing we can do in an imperfect state can "make" us perfect. Only Father can do this.

Yes, Love can fill us with LIGHT  :dsunny: and the darkness of doubt, fear and inflated ego just fades away. More and more, I am drawn to the following words of Paul.

1Cr 13:1-13
If I speak in the tonguesfn of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.

Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails.

But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears.

When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is  love.   


There is NO LOVE in mainstream christianity. A bold statement for sure but love keeps no records of Wrongs!!!!!! Which is consistent with the Book of Life. Just because one's name is not in this book, does NOT MEAN that ones name is in the Book of DEATH (or torture)


Paul know the truth behind LOVE. Father!!!  Father wills that no child of his is LOST to Him. We are all children and nothing we have done or will ever do, will put us ahead of any other.


Jesus spoke of this in great detail:  :HeartThrob:



Mat 20:1
"For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire workers for his vineyard.

Mat 20:2
He agreed to pay them a denariusfn for the day and sent them into his vineyard.

Mat 20:3
"About nine in the morning he went out and saw others standing in the marketplace doing nothing.

Mat 20:4
He told them, 'You also go and work in my vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is right.'

Mat 20:5
So they went. "He went out again about noon and about three in the afternoon and did the same thing.

Mat 20:6
About five in the afternoon he went out and found still others standing around. He asked them, 'Why have you been standing here all day long doing nothing?'

Mat 20:7
" 'Because no one has hired us,' they answered. "He said to them, 'You also go and work in my vineyard.'

Mat 20:8
"When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, 'Call the workers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last ones hired and going on to the first.'

Mat 20:9
"The workers who were hired about five in the afternoon came and each received a denarius.

Mat 20:10
So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius.

Mat 20:11
When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner.

Mat 20:12
'These who were hired last worked only one hour,' they said, 'and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.'

Mat 20:13
"But he answered one of them, 'I am not being unfair to you, friend. Didn't you agree to work for a denarius?

Mat 20:14
Take your pay and go. I want to give the one who was hired last the same as I gave you.

Mat 20:15
Don't I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?'

Mat 20:16
"So the last will be first, and the first will be last."

Mat 20:17
Now Jesus was going up to Jerusalem. On the way, he took the Twelve aside and said to them,


The Last will be First and the First will be Last, meaning just as Jesus said; all of Fathers children will be "paid" equally. There will be NOTHING held back from any late comers. Unlike the "workers" in the story, those that are the "first-fruits' will NOT grumble when they see that Father is blessing each of his children equally. Rather, these "first-fruits' of LOVE will rejoice in joy and happiness knowing that every last brother and sister is "home" again.

Thank you Father   :HeartThrob:

Love Julie 

[Tom]

I think those not chosen for eonian life will go to the second death-the lake of fire according to the Father's will, but they will just be reposing until the consummation of the eons when they will also be vivified (1 Corinthians 15:22-24). Scripture only says the Adversary, the wild beast, and the false prophet will be "tormented day and night for the eons of the eons" (Revelation 20:10). These three all must be spirit beings not mortals subject to death. Immortality of the soul is the philosophy of Plato, adopted as church doctrine, that originally came from the serpent's lie in the garden of Eden.

"And saying is the serpent to the woman, 'Not to die shall you be dying'" (Genesis 3:4)

The dead are reposing. As far as their consciousness is concerned, from the moment they die, the very next thing they will know is that they are alive again regardless of how long they have been dead. There is no consciousness in death.

"The living know that they shall die, But the dead know nothing whatsoever." (Ecclesiastes 9:5)

I agree that the Father is the "one source of goodness" because he is the source of all (Romans 11:36). That's why those not chosen for eonian life from before the disruption of the world (Ephesians 1:4) will simply be reposing until, according to the Father's will, all will be vivified (1 Corinthians 15:22). I don't even think the Adversary, the wild beast, and the false prophet will necessarily be experiencing physical pain because they're spirit beings without bodies and souls to sense pain. The soul is the sensation resulting from the combination of an organic body with breath or spirit.

"And forming is Yahweh Elohim the human of soil from the ground, and He is blowing into his nostrils the breath of the living, and becoming is the human a living soul." (Genesis 2:7)

Maybe those three will just experience the torment of being trapped with all the dead souls in the lake of fire. The point is that the mortals will be dead only until the consummation of the eons, and even the torment for those three not subject to death will only last "for the eons of the eons," not "for ever and ever," because the Father will ultimately "reconcile all" (Colossians 1:20) and be "all in all" (1 Corinthians 15:28).

[rosered]

  I really enjoy reading your posts Marie  !
well all of you really ,
keeping  me thinking  and praying   for Gods wisdom to come answer these things  that ''concern us ''   and what we all are going though

  For me , the LOF  as numerous  possibilites   and have heard many good thoughts  over the years  about this  topic
  Could not agree more that all goodnes and perfectness is From the Father above   James 1 NLT

Jam 1:17 Whatever is good and perfect comes down to us from God our Father, who created all the lights in the heavens.  He never changes or casts a shifting shadow.   


Jam 1:18 He chose to give birth to us by giving us his true word. And we, out of all creation, became his prized possession.   

The '' nature''' to me is what  must   die or change though the lake of fire

  If you have a  wolf whom refuses to  leave the sheep alone and  is always  attacking them and killing them and  wounding them  ,  and time and time  again    this does not change   the wolf

  would not God change the wolf nature  thought he lake of fire that is worthy of death /riddence ?   God is a consuming fire  / to eat up and devour    a nature  and than    create   a nature that is more like His nature  ?

For me its always been about  the nature of creatures    and its purpose in Gods plan  ,
  One  awesome plan of God is to end all suffering and    death and Violence  against   HIM and what are of Him
  I say this because   of the way the Word is worded in Gen 6  KJV
Gen 6:13   And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth. 

  Jesus spoke of theses  are the  days of Noe to Him    and again the   end of all flesh / those natures of  violence    before His return .

Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark / protection from judgment  and destruction  , because you are Spirit  in nature and your flesh is as dead  already , not  doing the violence against  God or His creatures'' in Christ ''

   in rev 7 :1 is like the  entry of the ARK /  ark of the conenant /promise of safe keeping   till its over  , that seal on the forehead   to me is the ''mind of Christ ''  or holy seal   that Paul speaks of in Romans  7

  Its hard for me to know  exactly waht Gods doing , but  by faith I know its going to be a perfect work  that   in the end will  be to His own Glory

to me the LOF    is the end   to the violence   and  misery     that being flesh and blood  and carnal in nature   destroys the much good  that God does   by His   own nature of being Spirit and truth

[rosered]

Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ!  Darby Literal Translation 


2Th 1:3 We ought to give thanks to God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because increase greatly doth your faith, and abound doth the love of each one of you all, to one another;    2Th 1:4 so that we ourselves do glory in you in the assemblies of God, for your endurance and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye bear; 


2Th 1:5 a token of the righteous judgment of God, for your being counted worthy of the reign of God, for which also ye suffer, 


2Th 1:6 since it is a righteous thing with God to give back to those troubling you -- trouble,   


2Th 1:7 and to you who are troubled -- rest with us in the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven, with messengers of his power, 
2Th 1:8 in flaming fire, giving vengeance to those not knowing God, and to those not obeying the good news of our Lord Jesus Christ; 
2Th 1:9 who shall suffer justice -- destruction age-during -- from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength, 
2Th 1:10 when He may come to be glorified in his saints, and to be wondered at in all those believing -- because our testimony was believed among you -- in that day; 


2Th 1:11 for which also we do pray always for you, that our God may count you worthy of the calling, and may fulfil all the good pleasure of goodness, and the work of the faith in power, 


2Th 1:12 that the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and Lord Jesus Christ. 
   this helps me too know that     as you judge so shall   you be judged   with the same  measure 
and to rest in Hope Gods going   to   do   this  and not  get ''troubled '' over all the evil    that  is going on right now  , but  honestly I do struggle with  evil , being harsh against
  within my own self and  in others
  so many mistake your kindness   for easy prey and take advantage      all the time

  needing rest at this time with Gods grace , loving God and His people /  new creation   
  that honesty and  innocence  ,  Truth and Spirit  , that is a sure sign that God is in control

[marie glen]

I have always beleived the 'elect'ineach generation is to proclaim andkeepJubilee[Christ seed]

  toall...failing todothat resultsindesolation..and feilds overgrownwith weeds..that are

fit fornothing but tobe'burned".........the time comes when He destroys those destroying the earth

...particularly at this time...'debt' of all the nations are an issue.....bankers/money changers

those with avarice greed[abomination of desolation] are fomenting insurrections anddesolation

ofthe entire earth.

  (amen, Sheila... $iTy babylon, the babylon of today is going global we can see.. )

[marie glen]

Amen Julie! and I have to think the apostles and Paul were able to be humble.. and how happy we are for that..

I was reading Micah 6, verse 8 when pondering that all good, light, truth, has only the one source, our Heavenly Father, and the footnote blew me away!

"what does God require of thee O man... but to walk humbly with thy God?" and the footnote reads "humble thyself to walk.." Imagine, humble thyself to walk with God.. Imagine any being neeeding to humble their self in order to walk with MOST HIGH FATHER GOD! when the gap between man and He as to worth is infinite.. humble thyself to walk with..

[marie glen]

The " nature"' to me is what  must   die or change though the lake of fire
 

Hi Rose! I love reading your posts as well! and I totally agree that the carnal un-regenerated (flesh) nature / dross has to be done away with.. which I believe is accomplished by all fiery judgments/&consequences. And "all" things will be made new.

We go through and so do all.. and I've come to think if God is all powerful and His will is unable to be thwarted, why does the 2nd resurrection require more stringent methods or process any different than the fiery purifying we go through? we are not superior to them is my thinking..

but the LOF at 'the end' the one the grave and death are thrown into, I think of as equaling gone.. the devil and his angels it says will go to it (agelasting? or gone? idk) and the two of rev 19:20 i believe are institutions of men active in the time of the 'end' and cast into the LOF the 2nd death at the return of Jesus :)

I know there's many views however  :smile: but ultimately, i suppose, there's a true perception of what it really is, and i suppose we will all continue to reach (and sift) for it.. bless U!

[marie glen]

in the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven, with messengers of his power,  [/b]

           Amen!  :thumbsup: I agree with all you wrote, but focusing on this

2Th 1:8 in flaming fire, giving vengeance to those not knowing God, and to those not obeying the good news of our Lord Jesus Christ; 
2Th 1:9 who shall suffer justice -- destruction age-during -- from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength, 
2Th 1:10 when He may come to be glorified in his saints, and to be wondered at in all those believing -- because our testimony was believed among you -- in that day;

            we see that He comes with fire.. cleansing fire.. which as we know is a millennium before the Great White Throne Judgment, commonly called Judgment Day..

I believe LOF is any fiery judgment, including spiritual which we are undergoing who presently believe.. as Sodom and Gomorrah underwent and is an example of..  and is all fiery judgments.. but believe the LOF which is the 2nd death may be different in that death and the grave we know will not be merely cleansed, but gone.. but either way, I suppose doesn't matter.. LOF as purifying..

It's my belief a lot we do not know of, presently, occurs in between the 2nd resurrection and the end of Judgment Day when all those not believing will go to the LOF.. the 2nd death.. and after having been resurrected and whatever occurs and the 2nd resurrection witnesses or experiences.. well, how many by then, are not going to believe? If we read of these things without ever having been taught 'hell' or torment or perishing.. would we read it differently?
:smile:  :Chinscratch:

[marie glen]

Immortality of the soul is the philosophy of Plato, adopted as church doctrine, that originally came from the serpent's lie in the garden of Eden.

"And saying is the serpent to the woman, 'Not to die shall you be dying'" (Genesis 3:4)


"The living know that they shall die, But the dead know nothing whatsoever." (Ecclesiastes 9:5)


"And forming is Yahweh Elohim the human of soil from the ground, and He is blowing into his nostrils the breath of the living, and becoming is the human a living soul." (Genesis 2:7)

:iagree: totally!!  :smile:

even the torment for those three not subject to death will only last "for the eons of the eons," not "for ever and ever," because the Father will ultimately "reconcile all" (Colossians 1:20) and be "all in all" (1 Corinthians 15:28).

this one I go back and forth on..
:Chinscratch: because of Col 1:20, which you too quoted, will the devil and his angels - for whom the LOF was made for.. be purified and reconciled.. or will they perish in the LOF like death and the grave do?

the two of rev 19:20 the beast (imo, world beast/body) and false prophet I believe are institutions of men active at the time of Jesus' return..
     :gsmile:

[JulieTang84]

this one I go back and forth on..
:Chinscratch: because of Col 1:20, which you too quoted, will the devil and his angels - for whom the LOF was made for.. be purified and reconciled.. or will they perish in the LOF like death and the grave do?

the two of rev 19:20 the beast (imo, world beast/body) and false prophet I believe are institutions of men active at the time of Jesus' return..
     :gsmile:

I believe Father created  everything for a purpose. Considering such as these sre given little goodness and we diligentffollowers,  perhaps their correction will be light.

As it is though perfect love must love perfectly. Father could not reconcile all things to Him while leaving unfinished business.

Just my thoughts

Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

[Tom]

Immortality of the soul is the philosophy of Plato, adopted as church doctrine, that originally came from the serpent's lie in the garden of Eden.

"And saying is the serpent to the woman, 'Not to die shall you be dying'" (Genesis 3:4)


"The living know that they shall die, But the dead know nothing whatsoever." (Ecclesiastes 9:5)


"And forming is Yahweh Elohim the human of soil from the ground, and He is blowing into his nostrils the breath of the living, and becoming is the human a living soul." (Genesis 2:7)

:iagree: totally!!  :smile:

even the torment for those three not subject to death will only last "for the eons of the eons," not "for ever and ever," because the Father will ultimately "reconcile all" (Colossians 1:20) and be "all in all" (1 Corinthians 15:28).

this one I go back and forth on..
:Chinscratch: because of Col 1:20, which you too quoted, will the devil and his angels - for whom the LOF was made for.. be purified and reconciled.. or will they perish in the LOF like death and the grave do?

the two of rev 19:20 the beast (imo, world beast/body) and false prophet I believe are institutions of men active at the time of Jesus' return..
     :gsmile:

I believe Colossians 1:20 means "all" when it says "all" just as 1 Corinthians 15:28 means "all" when it says "all in all." In other words, all God's creatures on earth and in the heavens are reconciled to God through Christ's blood on the cross, and God will be "all in all" of them at the consummation of the eons. So, to answer your question directly, yes, I believe Satan and his messengers are included.

You refer to "death and the grave" which the King James Version translates "death and hell," Young's Literal Translation translates "death and hades," and the Concordant Version translates "death and the unseen." I prefer "unseen" translated from the Greek "hades" because it means the "unseen" state of dead souls.

"And death and the unseen were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death-the lake of fire." (Revelation 20:14)

"And the Adversary who is deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and sulphur, where the wild beast and where the false prophet are also. And they shall be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons." (Revelation 20:10)

I believe those mortals resurrected to judgment before the great white throne will be cast into the lake of fire and die the second death. That's why it's called "the second death-the lake of fire." So I believe "the Adversary," "the wild beast," and "the false prophet" who will be "tormented day and night for the eons of the eons" must not be mortals subject to death because immortality of the soul is a lie, and "the dead know nothing whatsoever" (Genesis 3:4; Ecclesiastes 9:5). I also believe "the second death-the lake of fire" ends when death is abolished at the consummation of the eons (1 Corinthians 15:26), and all, including the Son, will be subjected to the Father "that God may be All in all" (1 Corinthians 15:28).

Scripture is concerned with the eons, not eternity. So any mortal said to "perish," be lost, or destroyed, even in "the second death-the lake of fire," will be "vivified" at the consummation of the eons, but spirit beings like Satan and his messengers aren't subject to death because they're not mortals. Scripture doesn't say the Adversary and his messengers "perish" in "the lake of fire," only that "the Adversary," "the wild beast," and "the false prophet" will be "tormented." I don't believe spirit beings die or "perish" because death seems to be exclusively a human condition. God reconciled "all" through Christ, and the ultimate goal of the eons is not annihilation or torment "for ever and ever" for anybody, but that God will be "all in all" (1 Corinthians 15:28).

"For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified." (1 Corinthians 15:22)

"through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens" (Colossians 1:20)

"Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all." (1 Corinthians 15:28)

"out of Him and through Him and for Him is all" (Romans 11:36).

http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html

Here's some info about "the wild beast."

http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheUnveiling/TheUnveiling034.htm