Let this cup pass from/by me...

[WhiteWings]

What does the above exactly mean?
The usual interpretation is that Jesus asked Father if there was another way besides going to the cross and if so He would prefer that way if Father agrees.
In my opinion He asked the opposite.

A (very) large cup of wine was passed along with everyone being in the room.
The custom was that everybody took a big swig; not just a sip.
At those times wine wasn't as perfectly filtered as it's now and the bottom of the cup often contained bitter dregs.
So there was no cheating allowed by taking a tiny sip to avoid the dregs.
Once the cup was empty, the one that drank the dregs filled the cup again and passed it to the next person.

So Jesus asked if He could be the 'dreg drinker'.
Translations vary a bit on the exact words of Jesus. Imo 'by' or 'from' doesn't carry the meaning "I don't want dregs".
It was more like I want a fresh cup if wine to 'originate' from Me. And the only way that could be if He drank the dregs.Obviously the dregs refer to His suffering.

This concludes another against the grain interpretation  :laugh:



New International Version
Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will."

New Living Translation
He went on a little farther and bowed with his face to the ground, praying, "My Father! If it is possible, let this cup of suffering be taken away from me. Yet I want your will to be done, not mine."

English Standard Version
And going a little farther he fell on his face and prayed, saying, "My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as you will."

New American Standard Bible
And He went a little beyond them, and fell on His face and prayed, saying, "My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; yet not as I will, but as You will."

King James Bible
And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Going a little farther, He fell facedown and prayed, "My Father! If it is possible, let this cup pass from Me. Yet not as I will, but as You will."

International Standard Version
Going on a little farther, he fell on his face and prayed, "O my Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from me. Yet not what I want but what you want."

NET Bible
Going a little farther, he threw himself down with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if possible, let this cup pass from me! Yet not what I will, but what you will."

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And he withdrew a little and he fell upon his face and he prayed and he said, "My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass by me, however not as I will, but as you will."

GOD'S WORD® Translation
After walking a little farther, he quickly bowed with his face to the ground and prayed, "Father, if it's possible, let this cup [of suffering] be taken away from me. But let your will be done rather than mine."

Jubilee Bible 2000
And he went a little further and fell on his face, praying and saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

King James 2000 Bible
And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as you will.

American King James Version
And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as you will.

American Standard Version
And he went forward a little, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass away from me: nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And going a little further, he fell upon his face, praying, and saying: My Father, if it be possible, let this chalice pass from me. Nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

Darby Bible Translation
And going forward a little he fell upon his face, praying and saying, My Father, if it be possible let this cup pass from me; but not as I will, but as thou wilt.

English Revised Version
And he went forward a little, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass away from me: nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt.

Webster's Bible Translation
And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt.

Weymouth New Testament
Going forward a short distance He fell on His face and prayed. "My Father," He said, "if it is possible, let this cup pass away from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as Thou willest."

World English Bible
He went forward a little, fell on his face, and prayed, saying, "My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass away from me; nevertheless, not what I desire, but what you desire."

Young's Literal Translation
And having gone forward a little, he fell on his face, praying, and saying, 'My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as Thou.'

[WhiteWings]

Awake, awake! Rise up, Jerusalem, you who have drunk from the hand of the LORD the cup of his wrath, you who have drained to its dregs the goblet that makes people stagger
http://biblehub.com/isaiah/51-17.htm

In the hand of Jehovah there is a cup, and He hath mixed with wine, He hath filled with the mixture, and hath poured out therefrom; but the dregs thereof, all the wicked of the earth shall suck them out, and drink them.
http://biblehub.com/psalms/75-8.htm

[sheila]

Prvrbs 2;22   but the wicked will be cut off from the land,and the unfaithful will be tornfrom it.

    He was appointed a grave with the wicked.

   then the scripture...Iwillnotdrinkof this wine agin,until I drink it anew with you......

I can see that Tony.......

[WhiteWings]

Arranging the marriage took 3 cups. The 4th on wedding day (years later).
So that's a wedding reference. But that's not what my post was about. Ok, maybe  a bad marriage  :winkgrin:

[sheila]

 don't mean to get off topic....but...I amreturning unto My Fatherand yours...you can notcome

now..but wil llaater[I go toprepare a place for you] betrothal period?  Drink it anew with you

  = marriage supper/best wine/last?

[WhiteWings]

You can't come is a wedding reference too...

Very roughly the procedure is as follows.

Father and son go to the bride and her father to bargain for  a wedding. Romance was involved but the financial component was very prominent. During the bargaining 3 cups of wine were drunk. The groom left and had no contact with the bride until marriage (you can't come).
The grooms best man had extensive contact with the bride. He was a messenger and often gave her gifts on behalf of the groom. That way she won't forgot him.
HS is the Jesus' grooomsman.

:2c:

[sheila]

 yes!   sothenthe spirit and powerof Elijah[John the Baptist]..which comes aagain..is Holy spirit!

  John the Baptist..named himselfas the 'freindof the bridegroom"by the powerof the Holy spirit

  he had beenfilled withfrom the womb!!

[leli]

To say that Jesus prayed if there was another way besides the cross does not make sense since He was slain before the foundation (disruption) of the world and He came to make that a physical reality.  It seems that He dreaded the thought that He will soon be forsaken by His Father, hence the cup.

Being LIFE He could face death as a Lamb without blemish, in which case He would be vivified. . .  not if He died with blemish though!

[WhiteWings]

To say that Jesus prayed if there was another way besides the cross does not make sense

It seems that He dreaded the thought that He will soon be forsaken by His Father,

Forsaken makes no sense either. Imo it's a wrong translation.

hence the cup.

?
The cup was asking for something; not regretting or trying to avoid it.

[leli]

If He was not forsaken for MY, OUR, sins, and then Justified in answer to His prayer (not seen as a prayer through a mistranslation) then I, WE, will be eventually and essentially forsaken for our sins.  In that case we would have nowhere to go.

If one's mind is made up, refusing to explore new possibilities, there is no point in discussing or arguing.

If you say so ... !

[WhiteWings]

If He was not forsaken for MY, OUR, sins, and then Justified in answer to His prayer (not seen as a prayer through a mistranslation) then I, WE, will be eventually and essentially forsaken for our sins.

On what exactly you base that conclusion?

If one's mind is made up, refusing to explore new possibilities, there is no point in discussing or arguing.

Then I wonder why you joined a discussion forum.

[leli]

1.  I do not expect to be saying something you do not know, WW.  We can tell that you have great knowledge, especially about Scriptures.  I just express my opinion, if I may.

Jesus had pure character.  My battle to prove that Jesus was not forsaken was up till 1999.  He could not have been:  He is the Son of God, I said to myself.  In my venture I went through the Aramaic/Lamsa version and accepted it.  During the years the theory became flat and senseless.  Jesus had to be abandoned since He was carrying our sins and The Father of all righteousness could not be the Father of Sin (as Jesus was made) at the same time.  Jesus knew that and it bothered Him more than His physical pain, but He had to accept the Cup.

When it was the right time, after three hours of darkness, Jesus prayed with a loud voice that His God (not in the role of the Father) would intervene.  God did.  He allowed light to appear as a sign to Jesus that He was heard. He justified Jesus instantly and bestowed Him with Grace (being pre-eminent in all), making Jesus the Lamb of God without blemish again to be able to take away the Sin of the world. . .what He did by conciliating the human to His God by His death --- paying for the sin of Adam.  No one has to believe it.  Facts remain facts whether we accept them of not.  We cannot undo them.

Let it be stated that Jesus did not ask WHY? to His God.  He never questioned His Father, His God.

2.I joined the discussion forum to learn and even discuss, but not with those whose mind is made up.  Paul said not to argue 'cause no good things can result.

[WhiteWings]

1.  I do not expect to be saying something you do not know, WW.  We can tell that you have great knowledge, especially about Scriptures.

I'm just a traveler/seeker like the other 657 members

Jesus had pure character.

Agreed.

My battle to prove that Jesus was not forsaken was up till 1999.  He could not have been:  He is the Son of God, I said to myself

I think being the Son of God is of little importance (God is no respecter of persons). The fact that Jesus was/is sinless is the the point as far as I'm concerned.

In my venture I went through the Aramaic/Lamsa version and accepted it.  During the years the theory became flat and senseless.

I think it makes very good sense. God doesn't abandon just people. Plus the carrying of sin was one of His main purposes.

Jesus had to be abandoned since He was carrying our sins and The Father of all righteousness could not be the Father of Sin (as Jesus was made) at the same time.

Here we have huge differences in opinion it seems.
Carrying sin doesn't mean to be sinner. Jesus was sin free from his first to His last breath. The scape goat (real animal) carried away sins. Did that goat really sin? One of the sins the goat carried was not keeping Sabbath? How could the goat have sinned against that law? Sabbath keeping laws aren't for goats
Same for Jesus. He took away sins (as in paid for them) but He personally never committed a sin.

Jesus knew that and it bothered Him more than His physical pain, but He had to accept the Cup.

Not just that He requested the dregs so the next person drinking would have good wine. Jesus requested trouble.
If He had to accept the cup is a matter of opinion.
He could have chosen to run away. His choice was to pay for His bride.

No one has to believe it.  Facts remain facts whether we accept them of not.  We cannot undo them.

That isn't denied by anyone. But that agreement doesn't mean what's taken as a fact is actually a fact.

Let it be stated that Jesus did not ask WHY? To His God.  He never questioned His Father, His God.

How does that change He was or was not forsaken?

2.I joined the discussion forum to learn and even discuss, but not with those whose mind is made up.  Paul said not to argue 'cause no good things can result.

Study theyself approved. Iron sharpens iron. Not everyone that disagrees with you has his/hers mind made up. They just don't change their mind every time they read a different opinion.

[rosered]

  yes the cup of suffering   
that all things in Christ be fulfilled   to me
  and that He would bring in the new covenant  promises of God , new creatures and new   heavens and earth
 
Act 3:18   But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled. 


Act 3:19   Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 


Act 3:20   And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 


Act 3:21   Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.   

[leli]

WW, I cannot agree more that iron sharpens iron.  For sharpening though, iron has to be rubbed gently, in the right direction and timed.  You know what I mean since God has blessed you so much.  If we bang against each other we hurt ourselves and instead of sharper we will become dull.

Your zeal for Christ not being forsaken is well understood for I stood under that banner for a long time.  A tape from John A Cheetham, who used to run "The Great Lakes Society of Biblical Literature" around the late 70's, about the language of  Christ from the Cross convinced me that He was not forsaken.  After a few years something came along, slowly and gradually, which gave me the big picture the details of which complemented each other.  I had to stop believing what I used to and started researching more to see if the picture had flaws.  I Could not find any.  The problem is that the people who read the study do that with suspicion and fails to grasp the real meaning.  That is fine.  Everything is out of God (Rom 11:36 [quote not intended for you]).  In His time, everything will be restored, even mistranslations.

About Jesus' purity and perfection I cannot agree more!  Remember though, It pleased God to afflict Him and also remember that He was made sin.

By the way, I did not say anything about facts that are only taken as being facts.  Facts that happened remain facts, whether we accept them or not  - - - to be clear. 

About your last comment I would rather have an open mind, receptive sort of, and test all things.  Something could have made sense up to now but look . . . "let's see".  (Try to convince an RC about some truths if his/her mind is set, most of the time since childhood.)  Is it not God Who sets the mind to understand?  If we are given to understand we, ourselves, will have more joy, now and in the ages to come.  But nothing changes from the facts that happened and from what Christ has achieved for the Universe, no matter what we think or say!

[JulieTang84]

Please know that I write this with much Love  :HeartThrob:

I am just a nobody that has had her foot in her mouth on more than one occasion :footmouth:

Heck no one is perfect, least of all is me. The lesson I struggle with most is "not having to teach anyone the TRUTH!!!" The truth is relative to the UNDERSTANDING granted by Father :HeartThrob:

Does anyone truly believe that one can ignore Father when HE does NOT want to be ignored? Each of us have been granted our share of Spirit. This Spirit was given to remind us of the teachings of Christ. So what if one is reminded in a different way than another. I am sure that Jesus had private counsel with all of his disciples and taught them what they needed to know.

Debating is pure foolishness. Yes I know, I debated WhiteWings like the fool that I am. No one won and only division was created, inasmuch as there are two apposing views and no attempt of mutual conciliation. There is no division in LOVE  :HeartThrob:. 

2 Corinthians 5:17 ESV
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.

1 Thessalonians 5:11 ESV
Therefore encourage one another and build one another up, just as you are doing.

Hebrews 10:23-25 ESV
Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful. And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.

1 Peter 4:8-10 ESV
Above all, keep loving one another earnestly, since love covers a multitude of sins. Show hospitality to one another without grumbling. As each has received a gift, use it to serve one another, as good stewards of God's varied grace:

Hebrews 10:24 ESV
And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works,

Jesus told us the TWO GREATEST commandments. LOVE Father with all that we are, and everyone else as we love ourselves.  :HeartThrob:

Love UNITES  :HeartThrob: :friendstu: :HeartThrob:

Love Julie

[WhiteWings]

Heck no one is perfect, least of all is me. The lesson I struggle with most is "not having to teach anyone the TRUTH!!!" The truth is relative to the UNDERSTANDING granted by Father :HeartThrob:

That doesn't mean we don't have to search the truth.

Does anyone truly believe that one can ignore Father when HE does NOT want to be ignored?

Empty words imo. How do you/we know a post on TM isn't Father communicating?

Each of us have been granted our share of Spirit.

And that is shared by discussing.

This Spirit was given to remind us of the teachings of Christ.

His teaching was oppose false teaching head on all guns blazing. I think that much should be clear from even a quick NT reading.

So what if one is reminded in a different way than another. I am sure that Jesus had private counsel with all of his disciples and taught them what they needed to know.

When 2 gather in My Name I'm in their midst....

Debating is pure foolishness. Yes I know, I debated WhiteWings like the fool that I am. No one won and only division was created,

That division existed long before that. People that answer everything with "it's all spiritual", "all love" etc really get under my skin. For me they are either lazy because they avoid study or have a pride issue and don't dare to admit (to themselves) they simply don't understand.

inasmuch as there are two apposing views and no attempt of mutual conciliation. There is no division in LOVE  :HeartThrob:.

True but that doesn't mean in the slightest way discussion=study should be avoided. Dunnu the saying exists in English but the saying from my native language seems to apply here: "Laziness is the devil's earpilow.

/EDIT
By all of the above I'm NOT trying to say love/peace/friendship/etc isn't part of Christ's teachings.

[WhiteWings]

And now.....

..... at least a single on topic post plz.

:iagree:

[JulieTang84]

That division existed long before that. People that answer everything with "it's all spiritual", "all love" etc really get under my skin. For me they are either lazy because they avoid study or have a pride issue and don't dare to admit (to themselves) they simply don't understand.

/EDIT
By all of the above I'm NOT trying to say love/peace/friendship/etc isn't part of Christ's teachings.

I tried PMing you WW but was blocked.

WW are you prejudging and basing your "feelings" on these pre-judgments.


Pro 3:5,6

5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart,
And lean not on your own understanding;
6 In all your ways acknowledge Him,
And He shall direct[a] your paths.


2 Corinthians 5:17 ESV
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.


All I am trying to say that is what Paul said so eloquently:


1 Cor 13:2
If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.


That you have great knowledge is undeniable but please never forget Love that is the MOST important of ANYTHING.

I will bow out of this now WW. I did not mean to hijack your thread.

Love Julie  :HeartThrob: