"Is Jesus The Narrow Way?" A small step toward Christian Universalism

[WhiteWings]

Ok, read and understood your post jbert. I accept the verses clearly stating "law". I don't think they are translation errors etc.
For the rest I would point to the answer I moments ago wrote to Julie. Does that explain my view clearly enough?

:friendstu:

[jbertonbounds]

The law is not done away with.  It is still in full effect,

All laws? Certain type of laws? (These are your words.)
Col 2:14  The law is not done away with.  It is still in full effect, yet it has been completely fulfilled by Jesus.

yet it has been completely fulfilled by Jesus.

What does fulfilled mean?
If you really don't know the answer to this, then that's the problem.  Jesus fulfilled the requirement of the law that sin be punished by death.  He paid the debt by his death on the cross.

[jbertonbounds]

The law is not done away with.  It is still in full effect,

All laws? Certain type of laws?
Col 2:14  The law is not done away with.  It is still in full effect, yet it has been completely fulfilled by Jesus.

yet it has been completely fulfilled by Jesus.

What does fulfilled mean?

Fulfilled means completed. The Law is now whole, covering both the physical as well as the spiritual.Jesus taught in Spirit and is through  the Spirit that he teaches still. This is why the ten commandments were reduced to only two.

Farher is love and the spiritual laws are instructions on how to become love.

Love is EVERYTHING!!!

LOVE Julie  :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

LIKE

[JulieTang84]

WhiteWings wrote......
So I think anyone opposing me doesn't really understand my view because nobody here will say murder is allowed.
Unfortunately I have no clue how to explain it, if it's still not clear.
:sigh:

WhiteWings please understand that LOVE overrides all laws and all sins. There is simply not a single sin no matter howsmall that will remain hidden in LOVE. You see  :HeartThrob: Love exposes everything in a pure light, absolutely EVERYTHING that is not PURE UNCONDITIONAL LOVE is a sin.

Jesus was/is sinless because their was no sin in him, only LOVE. He was incapable of sinning, because of his live for Father.

Please look at the whole picture, and see that Jesus fullfilled the Law completely.

Every sin is now exposed/condemned by Love and not law.

I hope this helps you understand.

Love Julie :HeartThrob: :friendstu:

[dajomaco]

First I want to correct a mistake

Did Jesus do away the law?
- If the answer is no then salvation is possible while under the law. So law doesn't equal death.
- If the answer is no yes then everything goes. Murder, theft and rape can't be punished because only by law we are held accountable for them.

The answer is NO. Your points here are unscriptural, meaning you have no scriptural basis for them, thus they are your own logic!

Please give me an example.

- If the answer is  yes then everything goes. Murder, theft and rape can't be punished because only by law we are held accountable for them.

Those you do not walk in faith are afraid that if Jesus let those other heathens walk in faith that they would Rape and Murder and Steal .

The spirits reveal themselves.

I would like to and may-be I will start a thread
where Paul (after his Damascus experience) is posting about Faith.

Then responding to his posts would be James
(the brother of Jesus according to the flesh the James that is not an apostle)
   

[fortytworc]

The law is not done away with.  It is still in full effect,

All laws? Certain type of laws? (These are your words.)
Col 2:14  The law is not done away with.  It is still in full effect, yet it has been completely fulfilled by Jesus.

yet it has been completely fulfilled by Jesus.

What does fulfilled mean?
If you really don't know the answer to this, then that's the problem.  Jesus fulfilled the requirement of the law that sin be punished by death.  He paid the debt by his death on the cross.

I am fairly new to the concept of Universalism. I know there are a range of differences just like most doctrines. But isn't here where one of the foundations of Universalism  is laid? As I understand it God is holy and pure and perfect. We were created in that image and perfection. Enter sin. God is love, and full of mercy. Enter the law. The holiness and justice of God requires holiness and perfection from His creation. there is a demand for punishment. But God is still Love. He wants perfect relationship with us, but that is a state to which we all fall short. Enter The Perfect Sacrifice. The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. The perfect sacrifice(Jesus) met all the requirements of the law. God is still Holy and still requires holiness FROM us. We cannot meet those requirements. Jesus, in becoming sin did FOR us what the Father required OF or FROM us. Though the requirements of the law are still required, Jesus fulfilled, or met the requirements for us. Gods justice is served. His holiness is met, so now we will be able to be with Him and experience His perfect love. We experience both His judgment through Jesus and therefore His love because of Jesus. I'm sure I've missed or misplaced something, But isn't that the gist of it?
Fulfil: Original: πληρόω
- Transliteration: Pleroo
- Phonetic: play-ro'-o
- Definition:   
1.  to make full, to fill up, i.e. to fill to the full   
a.  to cause to abound, to furnish or supply liberally   
1.  I abound, I am liberally supplied   
2.  to render full, i.e. to complete   
a.  to fill to the top: so that nothing shall be wanting to full measure, fill to the brim 
b.  to consummate: a number   
1.  to make complete in every particular, to render perfect 
2.  to carry through to the end, to accomplish, carry out, (some undertaking)   
c.  to carry into effect, bring to realisation, realise   
1.  of matters of duty: to perform, execute 
2.  of sayings, promises, prophecies, to bring to pass, ratify, accomplish 
3.  to fulfil, i.e. to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment 
- Origin: from H4134
- TDNT entry: 10:46,9
- Part(s) of speech: Verb   

[WhiteWings]

yet it has been completely fulfilled by Jesus.

What does fulfilled mean?

If you really don't know the answer to this, then that's the problem.  Jesus fulfilled the requirement of the law that sin be punished by death.  He paid the debt by his death on the cross.

Obviously I knew the answer but from your posts I got the impression you don't. Unfortunately I was completely right.

[WhiteWings]

WhiteWings wrote......
So I think anyone opposing me doesn't really understand my view because nobody here will say murder is allowed.
Unfortunately I have no clue how to explain it, if it's still not clear.
:sigh:

WhiteWings please understand that LOVE overrides all laws and all sins. There is simply not a single sin no matter howsmall that will remain hidden in LOVE. You see  :HeartThrob: Love exposes everything in a pure light, absolutely EVERYTHING that is not PURE UNCONDITIONAL LOVE is a sin.

Jesus was/is sinless because their was no sin in him, only LOVE. He was incapable of sinning, because of his live for Father.

Please look at the whole picture, and see that Jesus fullfilled the Law completely.

Every sin is now exposed/condemned by Love and not law.

I hope this helps you understand.

Love Julie :HeartThrob: :friendstu:

I totally understand your point Julie. I just think it's unScriptual.
Love is totally unable to expose anything because only law can do so.

Rom 5:13 For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

See only the law can punish sin. Without the law nothing can be punished and therefore love has no use because how can love forgive something that's not unlawful.

[Tom]

"13 For not the listeners to law are just with God, but the doers of law shall be justified.
14 For whenever they of the nations that have no law, by nature may be doing that which the law demands, these, having no law, are a law to themselves,
15 who are displaying the action of the law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying together and their reckonings between one another, accusing or defending them,
16 in the day when God will be judging the hidden things of humanity, according to my evangel, through Jesus Christ." (Romans 2:13-16)

"by works of law, no flesh at all shall be justified in His sight, for through law is the recognition of sin" (Romans 3:20)

"24 Being justified gratuitously in His grace, through the deliverance which is in Christ Jesus
25 (Whom God purposed for a Propitiatory shelter, through faith in His blood, for a display of His righteousness because of the passing over of the penalties of sins which occurred before in the forbearance of God),
26 toward the display of His righteousness in the current era, for Him to be just and a Justifier of the one who is of the faith of Jesus." (Romans 3:24-26)

"For we are reckoning a man to be justified by faith apart from works of law." (Romans 3:28)

"1 Being, then, justified by faith, we may be having peace toward God, through our Lord, Jesus Christ,
2 through Whom we have the access also, by faith, into this grace in which we stand, and we may be glorying in expectation of the glory of God." (Romans 5:1,2)

"Much rather, then, being now justified in His blood, we shall be saved from indignation, through Him." (Romans 5:9)

"18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just award for all mankind for life's justifying.
19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just." (Romans 5:18,19)

"Now whom He designates beforehand, these He calls also, and whom He calls, these He justifies also; now whom He justifies, these He glorifies also." (Romans 8:30)

"For Christ is the consummation of law for righteousness to everyone who is believing." (Romans 10:4)

"having perceived that a man is not being justified by works of law, except alone through the faith of Christ Jesus, we also believe in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by the faith of Christ and not by works of law, seeing that by works of law shall no flesh at all be justified." (Galatians 2:16)

"Now that in law no one is being justified with God is evident, for the just one by faith shall be living." (Galatians 3:11)

"So that the law has become our escort to Christ, that we may be justified by faith." (Galatians 3:24)

"Exempted from Christ were you who are being justified in law. You fall out of grace." (Galatians 5:4)

"4 "Falling from grace" is not, as usually supposed, a loss of the benefits of Christ's salvation through breaking the law. But, on the contrary, through attempting to keep the law. He who falls into sin does not forfeit the grace of God. Blessed to relate, grace abounds in such a case (Rom.6:1). But he who seeks to establish his own salvation by works has no need of the grace of God and forfeits all right to the benefits flowing from His redemption. He thus repudiates grace. He falls out of the sphere where grace operates. This is what "falling from grace" really means." (Concordant Commentary on the New Testament page 284)

"8 To no one owe anything, except to be loving one another, for he who is loving another has fulfilled law.
9 For this: "You shall not commit adultery," "you shall not murder," "you shall not steal," "you shall not testify falsely," "you shall not covet," and if there is any other precept, it is summed up in this saying, in this: "You shall love your associate as yourself."
10 Love is not working evil to an associate. The complement, then, of law, is love." (Romans 13:8-10)

"For the entire law is fulfilled in one word, in this: "You shall love your associate as yourself."" (Galatians 5:14)

[JulieTang84]

WhiteWings wrote......
So I think anyone opposing me doesn't really understand my view because nobody here will say murder is allowed.
Unfortunately I have no clue how to explain it, if it's still not clear.
:sigh:

WhiteWings please understand that LOVE overrides all laws and all sins. There is simply not a single sin no matter howsmall that will remain hidden in LOVE. You see  :HeartThrob: Love exposes everything in a pure light, absolutely EVERYTHING that is not PURE UNCONDITIONAL LOVE is a sin.

Jesus was/is sinless because their was no sin in him, only LOVE. He was incapable of sinning, because of his live for Father.

Please look at the whole picture, and see that Jesus fullfilled the Law completely.

Every sin is now exposed/condemned by Love and not law.

I hope this helps you understand.

Love Julie :HeartThrob: :friendstu:

I totally understand your point Julie. I just think it's unScriptual.
Love is totally unable to expose anything because only law can do so.

Rom 5:13 For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

See only the law can punish sin. Without the law nothing can be punished and therefore love has no use because how can love forgive something that's not unlawful.

I see were you are coming from WW.

The difference is that you see PUNISH, whilst I see CORRECTION.

The Law punishes.
Love  :HeartThrob: corrects. This why the works are burned, but person saved.

This is what I meant earlier about the fulfilling of the law being both physical and spiritual.

Punishment has been replaced with correction. This correction might seem like punishment, but the results will be a sight to behold. Love creates a better person.

Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

[jbertonbounds]

According to Webster Dictionary:

ful·fill
transitive verb \fu̇(l)-ˈfil also fə(l)-\

: to do what is required by (something, such as a promise or a contract)

: to succeed in doing or providing (something)

: to succeed in achieving (something) : to make (something, such as a dream) true or real

This dictionary says nothing about "explaining correctly."

[jbertonbounds]

The law is not done away with.  It is still in full effect,

All laws? Certain type of laws? (These are your words.)
Col 2:14  The law is not done away with.  It is still in full effect, yet it has been completely fulfilled by Jesus.

yet it has been completely fulfilled by Jesus.

What does fulfilled mean?
If you really don't know the answer to this, then that's the problem.  Jesus fulfilled the requirement of the law that sin be punished by death.  He paid the debt by his death on the cross.

I am fairly new to the concept of Universalism. I know there are a range of differences just like most doctrines. But isn't here where one of the foundations of Universalism  is laid? As I understand it God is holy and pure and perfect. We were created in that image and perfection. Enter sin. God is love, and full of mercy. Enter the law. The holiness and justice of God requires holiness and perfection from His creation. there is a demand for punishment. But God is still Love. He wants perfect relationship with us, but that is a state to which we all fall short. Enter The Perfect Sacrifice. The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. The perfect sacrifice(Jesus) met all the requirements of the law. God is still Holy and still requires holiness FROM us. We cannot meet those requirements. Jesus, in becoming sin did FOR us what the Father required OF or FROM us. Though the requirements of the law are still required, Jesus fulfilled, or met the requirements for us. Gods justice is served. His holiness is met, so now we will be able to be with Him and experience His perfect love. We experience both His judgment through Jesus and therefore His love because of Jesus. I'm sure I've missed or misplaced something, But isn't that the gist of it?
Fulfil: Original: πληρόω
- Transliteration: Pleroo
- Phonetic: play-ro'-o
- Definition:   
1.  to make full, to fill up, i.e. to fill to the full   
a.  to cause to abound, to furnish or supply liberally   
1.  I abound, I am liberally supplied   
2.  to render full, i.e. to complete   
a.  to fill to the top: so that nothing shall be wanting to full measure, fill to the brim 
b.  to consummate: a number   
1.  to make complete in every particular, to render perfect 
2.  to carry through to the end, to accomplish, carry out, (some undertaking)   
c.  to carry into effect, bring to realisation, realise   
1.  of matters of duty: to perform, execute 
2.  of sayings, promises, prophecies, to bring to pass, ratify, accomplish 
3.  to fulfil, i.e. to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment 
- Origin: from H4134
- TDNT entry: 10:46,9
- Part(s) of speech: Verb

Awesome.  LIKE :thumbsup:

[jbertonbounds]

yet it has been completely fulfilled by Jesus.

What does fulfilled mean?

If you really don't know the answer to this, then that's the problem.  Jesus fulfilled the requirement of the law that sin be punished by death.  He paid the debt by his death on the cross.

Obviously I knew the answer but from your posts I got the impression you don't. Unfortunately I was completely right.

Right about what?

It was not obvious that you knew the answer.

I do not claim to be "completely right" or to know all things.  Far from it - such arrogance would only prove that I am one of the "wise and understanding of Luke 10:21 - In that same hour he rejoiced in the Holy Spirit and said, "I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children; yes, Father, for such was your gracious will.

[sheila]

  my  :2c:.....the law  that leads to Christ as a tutour........  commands that expose/restrain..the sin

  or falling short ofthe nature of God[and man in His image]

   Christ fulfilling the law...and free gift of Holy spirit..and thenot counting of man's tresspasses

against him..while in this former state[natural].....really is God'slong suffering exercized until..

  by His spirit the law is written in man's heart.[man in Christ..the Father'simage/spiritual man

  actually God's spirit..inand through Christexalts[raises evenhigher] God's law.. that acts

as a restraint of acts that lac k love for God and  all that is right  andgood..and restrains the

acts of lack of love to your fellowman......

  Genuine Love inthe heartwith accurate understanding[mind of Christ]  of the Father andyour

fellowmaan...is above the law..with no law against it.[I am from above/ye refrombelow]

   the enmity is between the seeds  in all men'sflesh....as first the natural then the spiritual....

  [as we have all bornthe imageof the corrupt/so,too shall we all bear theimage oftheincorruptible]

    serpentseed...bruises man's heel[wounds anddeath to man's flesh/murderer from beginning].

.the woman'sseed.....  obliterates the mind/thoughts/intentsof the serpentseed..and is

caught up to the throne......


           just howI seeit........

  man in this corruptible image...is really the seedof God falling to earth and dying......God/Jesus

laying downHislife for us[He died for us whenwe were yet at enmity/enemies]  Yet..whenHeis

lifted UP..HE SHALL DRAW ALL MEN UNTO HIM.....

   Draw and Drag........the dragon casts to the earth.[all the stars fellfrom the sky]... but whenHe is

lifted up...He shall draw allmen......

    the seed of the woman is the immortal/resurrection seed.......that all men live unto God.....

   the Lordof the living and the dead..quickens with immortality that which was mortal/lights

the candle ofevery man[the light that hadgone out inthe temple/body ofman]that man maay

see the light ofLIFE...which is in God and Christ.

[marie glen]

Jesus is the (fulfilling of) the law..?

Jesus is the way.. narrow because on either side are wide ditches, one being "the law" to be saved or even grace plus "the law" (but filthy rags really, only one source of goodness, and it's not us)

..the other ditch being "grace" as license! (Yuk)

"the law" with grace ("is no longer grace" Paul said)

and it robs the gospel of its saving and transforming POWER.

Thru the way, we can boldly approach the throne of grace to get all the help and transforming power we need..

the law pushes us away from Him, the transforming POWER, for it genders fear. we know we are not "good enough"

and are, so to speak, "in chains" i.e, cannot become perfect, what with being imperfect..

so our standing is in Christ Jesus, "He is our righteousness" period? a narrow way.. giving us boldness to draw near to God the source of all salvation, redemption, and transformation / progression of..

[Seth]

Shiela,
Yes! Moses was the mediator of the old covenant, so we can see a shadow of Christ in him, the Mediator of the new covenant.

Moses comes down from the mountain, and he sees SIN, worshipping of idols (SELF being the biggest idol to smash). So Moses SMASHES the stones and goes back up to the mountain to get new tablets.

The one covenant was written on stone, a new covenant is written on Stone. The new stone is Jesus Christ, and the small rocks that live within him do not live by the letter, but according to a new NATURE without the law.

The new Laws written on the Stone are his own people who are within him. Jesus was without sin, not just because he loved his father, but because he lived by the POWER of the Holy Spirit. He had the same flesh as Adam, but was born of NO MAN, but directly by God.

Romans 2:13-14
For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (watch this) (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do BY NATURE things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law.

Nobody in the New Covenant obeys the Law because they have the law. They do things in the Law BY NATURE.....by a washing of the Spirit.....by being Crucified in Christ to the flesh. After that, they are no longer naturally opposed to the things of the Law and the Law is no longer for them because they have already been led to Christ.

[Seth]

It can all be contained in ONE sentence.

Galatians 5:18 "But IF ..... you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law"

[rosered]

It can all be contained in ONE sentence.

Galatians 5:18 "But IF ..... you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law"

:iagree:   
  I can also see this as no longer eating of the Tree of good and evil ,
Judging  the flesh as sinful and spirit is good, not complete  ,  lacking Christ [Romans  7  and 8 ]   for its the ministry of death , exposing the sin nature as   open /naked

But now  eating of the Tree of Life [Spiritual ]    the Law  in Christ fulfills ,  Love God and one another   as Christ is the covering  , and Love covers a multutude of sin

[Seth]

It can all be contained in ONE sentence.

Galatians 5:18 "But IF ..... you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law"

:iagree:   
  I can also see this as no longer eating of the Tree of good and evil ,
Judging  the flesh as sinful and spirit is good, not complete  ,  lacking Christ [Romans  7  and 8 ]   for its the ministry of death , exposing the sin nature as   open /naked

But now  eating of the Tree of Life [Spiritual ]    the Law  in Christ fulfills ,  Love God and one another   as Christ is the covering  , and Love covers a multutude of sin

:thumbsup:

Yes, and if you really think about the "fruit" of good and evil, as compared to the "fruit" of the Law, the fruit of the Law is this: "But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good (the Law); that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful."

Don't eat that fruit. Eat the fruit of the tree of Life which delivers us from sin and transgressions.

[marie glen]

Don't eat that fruit. Eat the fruit of the tree of Life which delivers us from sin and transgressions.

Amen! :iagree:  :thumbsup:

..."His spirit in us" / "God is Love" / "Love worketh NO ill" / "led by the Spirit" / "not as though we are (already) perfected" fully / Hang out with God (and Jesus) - "draw near" (fear causes us to shrink back, delaying further transformation)

If one is filled with God.. or has the Spirit of God in their heart (surely?) they should not need to think each morning "today I will not murder, defraud, harm, cheat.." / "For the Love of God is shed abroad in our hearts" and flows through us..

"not as tho we are perfected" or I would despair!! for I can plainly see how far from perfection I am, but the Love of God shed abroad in my heart keeps me, yet if I were to try via the arm of the flesh to improve myself, I always disappoint myself! But! when I reckon I have one "law" one rule - "to love God" I am free, to love God.. to pursue God.. to draw near in confidence.. "and receive the help I need.."

Law brings guilt.. "The LORD came in the cool of the evening.. Adam where are you..? they hid themselves.."

[Seth]

Don't eat that fruit. Eat the fruit of the tree of Life which delivers us from sin and transgressions.

If one is filled with God.. or has the Spirit of God in their heart (surely?) they should not need to think each morning "today I will not murder, defraud, harm, cheat.." / "For the Love of God is shed abroad in our hearts" and flows through us..

Yes, exactly. Good fruit grows naturally on good trees.

:dsunny:

[sheila]

manyare destroyed..or gothey way of destruction before they are restored...sodomGomorrah

   Jerusalem..........few are choseninthis world not to go that way... the many that do gothat way

are declared righteous by Him giventhe freegift andraised up out of the ash heap.[spirit saved

onthe daay of the Lord]By Hisknowledge my servant will declare many righteous[forinstance

Jesus speaking of the sinner not evenwilling to lift his faace up to God butbeatinghischest

andcrying for God's mercy onhim...God shall clothe such a man in mercy with robes of

righteousness as afreegift[wedding garment] for the wedding garments are mercy bestowed

as free gift of righteousness. Andifany think the garments are anything other then undeserved

kindness they are mistaken.[just as Pharisees and sadducees like to parade about in flowing

garments of their ownrighteousness and make long prayers[to himself] such as  I thank you

god[themselves] that I am not like this sinnerover here.


   wehave the example inthe scripturess of this..and that scriptures speak of sodom

andgommrrah returning unto their former state.........

       THAT IS WHAT RESTORATION IS ALL ABOUT.

       

[marie glen]

I haven't read the paper yet.. I've always felt on either side of "the narrow way" are two wide ditches.. one being "the law" ("law mixed with grace is no longer grace") and the other being "license" "which thing the Lord hates" as some of the gnostics were..

...like the Nicolaitans and the teacher referred to as Jezebel in the Lord's letter to the Church at Thyatira.. the gnostics believed all matter was the problem, man had fallen, not into sin/imperfection, but had fallen into matter (they forgot about the creation and God saying "behold it's all good!")

So if matter was evil.. then eating, sitting, everything was 'evil' so what the hey, just do whatever.. "depths of satan, so called" and called wisdom, so called knowledge.. hidden wisdom/knowledge, the greek word for knowledge being "gnosis".. Notice how it takes sin and mankind's imperfection (need of a savior) off the table.. it's not sin, it's matter itself which is evil.. (cop out!!)

[marie glen]

Good fruit grows naturally on good trees.

:dsunny:

    :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[marie glen]

manyare destroyed..or gothey way of destruction before they are restored...sodomGomorrah

   Jerusalem..........few are choseninthis world not to go that way... the many that do gothat way

are declared righteous by Him giventhe freegift andraised up out of the ash heap.[spirit saved

onthe daay of the Lord]

       THAT IS WHAT RESTORATION IS ALL ABOUT.
       

Sheila,

that is SO true! man's natural (un born again) way is destruction.. and to/toward destruction.. anything minus the Spirit of God is minus! is destroyed, collapses! and ultimately is "ashes"!!

I feel I was destroyed before I was saved.. and surely(?) this destruction comes upon all sooner or later.. destruction of the lower self.. the lower (w/o God's Spirit) self having proven itself 'wrong'.. likely many times over..

:dsunny: