"Is Jesus The Narrow Way?" A small step toward Christian Universalism

[sheila]

...just a thought............maybethe 'wide'aspect of Christ..that is being referred to..by

   our newby...is inthis regard....  Ephesians 3;18... to grasp how wide... and long..and

deep is the Love of Christ.   and this Proverbs 23;27and Prvrbs 2;16   a wayward wife

is a narrow well.   Seeing it this way God's wayward wife['Israel] is a narrow well........

    that does notsay 'Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord"

      nothing is evil in itself...be it wide or narrow................wide can be used to portray

  as both a positive and a negative.  As can narrow.

    ex; her hips are narrow[good or evil?] herhips are wide[good or evil]Intent andpurpose.


42hope you stay around.  and  if He draw you by  great crowd or you follow behind Him

through a narrow door......littleflock/other sheep Imust bring........Praise Him who takes away

all sin.

[jbertonbounds]

Christ didn't put down the law, only the hypocrisy of the Pharisees who claimed to live by the law but invalidated it with their corrupt tradition just like the church and its tradition today invalidates the word of God.  True, the Christ did not put down the law - he fulfilled it.  But one does not enter into the Kingdom of God through Judaism.  Judaism is the religion built by man, based on the law and the prophets.  They don't believe in Jesus.  Their religion is not going to serve as a gate of door for anyone to enter the Kingdom.  Jesus is the only way!  LAW + JESUS = SALVATION

"You should not infer that I came to demolish the law or the prophets. I came not to demolish, but to fulfill. For verily, I am saying to you, Till heaven and earth should be passing by, one iota or one serif may by no means be passing by from the law till all should be occurring." (Matthew 5:17,18)

"you invalidate the word of God because of your tradition" (Matthew 15:6)

The first verse of what we've been discussing gives the subject about what Christ was speaking.

"12 All, then, whatever you should be wanting that men should be doing to you, thus you, also, be doing to them, for this is the law and the prophets.
13 "Enter through the cramped gate, for broad is the gate and spacious is the way which is leading away into destruction, and many are those entering through it.
14 Yet what a cramped gate and narrowed way is the one leading away into life, and few are those who are finding it." (Matthew 7:12-14)
The law and the prophets encourages good works, but no man can work his way into the Kingdom of God.  Jesus is the only way, the gate, the door, the way in.

That's why the Concordant Commentary says this.

"12 Compare Lu.6:31.

12 To do as we would be done by is an ethical standard far above the world's attainment, yet far beneath the monitions of grace. The law and the prophets demand compliance with this code, yet supply no power to carry it out. Grace gives the ability, yet makes no demands, but rather entreats us to do as we have been done by in our dealings with God, rather than man.

13-14 Compare Lu.13:24.

13 The crowds enter a city by the broad road which passes through the wide gate. The narrow side-paths leading to a narrow gateway in some retired corner were seldom used and were always shut in the daytime and locked at night. Few find or use these paths. This is not an illustration of the gospel, but of the law. It represents an effort to attain life. It is not stated that few find life, but few find the path to it. (What's the difference? It is stated that way because it is an integral part of the metaphor Jesus was speaking.  Had he been speaking in plain language instead of metaphor, then he would have said "few find life.")  All life is God's gift and can never be made by man, either in the sphere of religion or of science." (Concordant Commentary on the New Testament page 19)

Christ was commissioned to Israel who was given the law by God, and, when Christ returns to rule Israel, they will still have their law because there will be some who will be condemned to death for violating the law, and their corpses will be cast into Gehenna. That is what Christ was referring to in Isaiah 66:23,24, but church doctrine has distorted the truth by intentionally changing the word of God in twelve verses to give the impression that Gehenna is "hell," a place where those who die as unbelievers will be tortured alive in fire forever. 

"And it will come to be, as often as the new moon comes in its monthly time, And as often as the sabbath comes in its sabbath cycle, All flesh shall come to worship before Me, says Yahweh. And they will go forth and see the corpses of the mortals who transgressed against Me, For their worm shall not die, And their fire shall not be quenched, And they will become a repulsion to all flesh." (Isaiah 66:23,24)

The risen Christ commissioned Saul on the road to Damascus outside Israel to bring the evangel of the Uncircumcision to the nations which is salvation in grace through faith apart from Hebrew law. It is only because the church has intentionally confused the two distinct evangels of the Circumcision and the Uncircumcision that church folks believe the church has replaced Israel and is subject to its law. That is the distorted evangel that Paul cursed in Galatians.
Paul said there was no difference between circumcision and uncircumcision:
Romans 2:25 - For circumcision indeed is of value if you obey the law, but if you break the law, your circumcision becomes uncircumcision.
Romans 2:26 - So, if a man who is uncircumcised keeps the precepts of the law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision?
1 Corinthians 7:19 - For neither circumcision counts for anything nor uncircumcision, but keeping the commandments of God.
Galatians 5:6 - For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.
Galatians 6:15 - For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.
Galatians 3:28 - There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.


"But if ever we also, or a messenger out of heaven, should be bringing an evangel to you beside that which we bring to you, let him be anathema! As we have declared before and at present I am saying again, if anyone is bringing you an evangel beside that which you accepted, let him be anathema!" (Galatians 1:8,9)  Has someone here presented a different gospel message from what Paul had preached?

We are not Israel, and we are not subject to its law! Upon what scripture do you base this?

"For the entire law is fulfilled in one word, in this: "You shall love your associate as yourself."" (Galatians 5:14)

We are not even "the church." We are "the ecclesia" called out of the world, including the world religious system, the church, to be "the body of Christ." You may be interested in Hebrew culture and history, but the word of God says Israel has a different destiny than us (Scrpiture references, please...).  They will be an earthly kingdom ruled by Christ while we have a "celestial" destiny (scripture reference?), but the word of God is only concerned with the eons. At the consummation of the eons, we are told that all will be "vivified" and God will be "all in all," but no more information is given about who will be where. It seems that we must trust God about that to do the best thing for us whatever that may be.  We know that when we are raised (resurrected) we will be given immortality, so we know we will live forever, in the true sense of the word.  A new heaven and earth will be prepared, and it will always be before Yahweh. Isaiah 66.22 - For as the new heavens and the new earth that I make shall remain before me, says the Lord, so shall your offspring and your name remain.

[Tom]

Christ didn't put down the law, only the hypocrisy of the Pharisees who claimed to live by the law but invalidated it with their corrupt tradition just like the church and its tradition today invalidates the word of God.  True, the Christ did not put down the law - he fulfilled it.  But one does not enter into the Kingdom of God through Judaism.  Judaism is the religion built by man, based on the law and the prophets.  They don't believe in Jesus.  Their religion is not going to serve as a gate of door for anyone to enter the Kingdom.  Jesus is the only way!  LAW + JESUS = SALVATION

"You should not infer that I came to demolish the law or the prophets. I came not to demolish, but to fulfill. For verily, I am saying to you, Till heaven and earth should be passing by, one iota or one serif may by no means be passing by from the law till all should be occurring." (Matthew 5:17,18)

"you invalidate the word of God because of your tradition" (Matthew 15:6)

The first verse of what we've been discussing gives the subject about what Christ was speaking.

"12 All, then, whatever you should be wanting that men should be doing to you, thus you, also, be doing to them, for this is the law and the prophets.
13 "Enter through the cramped gate, for broad is the gate and spacious is the way which is leading away into destruction, and many are those entering through it.
14 Yet what a cramped gate and narrowed way is the one leading away into life, and few are those who are finding it." (Matthew 7:12-14)
The law and the prophets encourages good works, but no man can work his way into the Kingdom of God.  Jesus is the only way, the gate, the door, the way in.

That's why the Concordant Commentary says this.

"12 Compare Lu.6:31.

12 To do as we would be done by is an ethical standard far above the world's attainment, yet far beneath the monitions of grace. The law and the prophets demand compliance with this code, yet supply no power to carry it out. Grace gives the ability, yet makes no demands, but rather entreats us to do as we have been done by in our dealings with God, rather than man.

13-14 Compare Lu.13:24.

13 The crowds enter a city by the broad road which passes through the wide gate. The narrow side-paths leading to a narrow gateway in some retired corner were seldom used and were always shut in the daytime and locked at night. Few find or use these paths. This is not an illustration of the gospel, but of the law. It represents an effort to attain life. It is not stated that few find life, but few find the path to it. (What's the difference? It is stated that way because it is an integral part of the metaphor Jesus was speaking.  Had he been speaking in plain language instead of metaphor, then he would have said "few find life.")  All life is God's gift and can never be made by man, either in the sphere of religion or of science." (Concordant Commentary on the New Testament page 19)

Christ was commissioned to Israel who was given the law by God, and, when Christ returns to rule Israel, they will still have their law because there will be some who will be condemned to death for violating the law, and their corpses will be cast into Gehenna. That is what Christ was referring to in Isaiah 66:23,24, but church doctrine has distorted the truth by intentionally changing the word of God in twelve verses to give the impression that Gehenna is "hell," a place where those who die as unbelievers will be tortured alive in fire forever. 

"And it will come to be, as often as the new moon comes in its monthly time, And as often as the sabbath comes in its sabbath cycle, All flesh shall come to worship before Me, says Yahweh. And they will go forth and see the corpses of the mortals who transgressed against Me, For their worm shall not die, And their fire shall not be quenched, And they will become a repulsion to all flesh." (Isaiah 66:23,24)

The risen Christ commissioned Saul on the road to Damascus outside Israel to bring the evangel of the Uncircumcision to the nations which is salvation in grace through faith apart from Hebrew law. It is only because the church has intentionally confused the two distinct evangels of the Circumcision and the Uncircumcision that church folks believe the church has replaced Israel and is subject to its law. That is the distorted evangel that Paul cursed in Galatians.
Paul said there was no difference between circumcision and uncircumcision:
Romans 2:25 - For circumcision indeed is of value if you obey the law, but if you break the law, your circumcision becomes uncircumcision.
Romans 2:26 - So, if a man who is uncircumcised keeps the precepts of the law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision?
1 Corinthians 7:19 - For neither circumcision counts for anything nor uncircumcision, but keeping the commandments of God.
Galatians 5:6 - For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.
Galatians 6:15 - For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.
Galatians 3:28 - There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.


"But if ever we also, or a messenger out of heaven, should be bringing an evangel to you beside that which we bring to you, let him be anathema! As we have declared before and at present I am saying again, if anyone is bringing you an evangel beside that which you accepted, let him be anathema!" (Galatians 1:8,9)  Has someone here presented a different gospel message from what Paul had preached?

We are not Israel, and we are not subject to its law! Upon what scripture do you base this?

"For the entire law is fulfilled in one word, in this: "You shall love your associate as yourself."" (Galatians 5:14)

We are not even "the church." We are "the ecclesia" called out of the world, including the world religious system, the church, to be "the body of Christ." You may be interested in Hebrew culture and history, but the word of God says Israel has a different destiny than us (Scrpiture references, please...).  They will be an earthly kingdom ruled by Christ while we have a "celestial" destiny (scripture reference?), but the word of God is only concerned with the eons. At the consummation of the eons, we are told that all will be "vivified" and God will be "all in all," but no more information is given about who will be where. It seems that we must trust God about that to do the best thing for us whatever that may be.  We know that when we are raised (resurrected) we will be given immortality, so we know we will live forever, in the true sense of the word.  A new heaven and earth will be prepared, and it will always be before Yahweh. Isaiah 66.22 - For as the new heavens and the new earth that I make shall remain before me, says the Lord, so shall your offspring and your name remain.

Christ was commissioned only to the lost sheep of Israel.

"I was not commissioned except for the lost sheep of the house of Israel." (Matthew 15:24)

When he spoke to them, he was speaking about them not the nations.

You said, "True, the Christ did not put down the law - he fulfilled it.  But one does not enter into the Kingdom of God through Judaism.  Judaism is the religion built by man, based on the law and the prophets.  They don't believe in Jesus.  Their religion is not going to serve as a gate of door for anyone to enter the Kingdom.  Jesus is the only way!  LAW + JESUS = SALVATION"..."The law and the prophets encourages good works, but no man can work his way into the Kingdom of God.  Jesus is the only way, the gate, the door, the way in."..."(What's the difference? It is stated that way because it is an integral part of the metaphor Jesus was speaking.  Had he been speaking in plain language instead of metaphor, then he would have said "few find life.")"

God gave the Jews the law to show them they couldn't overcome sin by their own works. I agree Christ is the only way.

"I am the Door. Through Me if anyone should be entering, he shall be saved, and shall be entering and coming out and will be finding pasture." (John 10:9)

"I am the Way and the Truth and the Life. No one is coming to the Father except through Me." (John 14:6)

But those are not the verses being discussed.

The scripture referenced says nothing about "the Kingdom of God," but about "life."

"12 All, then, whatever you should be wanting that men should be doing to you, thus you, also, be doing to them, for this is the law and the prophets.
13 "Enter through the cramped gate, for broad is the gate and spacious is the way which is leading away into destruction, and many are those entering through it.
14 Yet what a cramped gate and narrowed way is the one leading away into life, and few are those who are finding it." (Matthew 7:12-14)

"12 Compare Lu.6:31.

12 To do as we would be done by is an ethical standard far above the world's attainment, yet far beneath the monitions of grace. The law and the prophets demand compliance with this code, yet supply no power to carry it out. Grace gives the ability, yet makes no demands, but rather entreats us to do as we have been done by in our dealings with God, rather than man.

13-14 Compare Lu.13:24.

13 The crowds enter a city by the broad road which passes through the wide gate. The narrow side-paths leading to a narrow gateway in some retired corner were seldom used and were always shut in the daytime and locked at night. Few find or use these paths. This is not an illustration of the gospel, but of the law. It represents an effort to attain life. It is not stated that few find life, but few find the path to it. All life is God's gift and can never be made by man, either in the sphere of religion or of science." (Concordant Commentary on the New Testament page 19)

"This is not an illustration of the gospel, but of the law. It represents an effort to attain life. It is not stated that few find life, but few find the path to it."

You said, "Paul said there was no difference between circumcision and uncircumcision."

"7 But, on the contrary, perceiving that I have been entrusted with the evangel of the Uncircumcision,
8 according as Peter of the Circumcision (for He Who operates in Peter for the apostleship of the Circumcision operates in me also for the nations),
9 and, knowing the grace which is being given to me, James and Cephas and John, who are supposed to be pillars, give to me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we, indeed, are to be for the nations, yet they for the Circumcision" (Galatians 2:7-9)

Scripture doesn't contradict itself, but sometimes folks make that false assumption due to confusion between the relative and the absolute.

http://concordant.org/expohtml/GodAndChrist/TheDeityOfGod5.html

Both the verses that you quoted and the ones that I quoted are true relatively speaking.

You said, "Has someone here presented a different gospel message from what Paul had preached?" referring to "But if ever we also, or a messenger out of heaven, should be bringing an evangel to you beside that which we bring to you, let him be anathema! As we have declared before and at present I am saying again, if anyone is bringing you an evangel beside that which you accepted, let him be anathema!" (Galatians 1:8,9)"

But that was referring to "The risen Christ commissioned Saul on the road to Damascus outside Israel to bring the evangel of the Uncircumcision to the nations which is salvation in grace through faith apart from Hebrew law. It is only because the church has intentionally confused the two distinct evangels of the Circumcision and the Uncircumcision that church folks believe the church has replaced Israel and is subject to its law. That is the distorted evangel that Paul cursed in Galatians."

Some Jews tried to convince the Galatians that they had to subject themselves to Hebrew law, but Paul told them they didn't because they weren't Jews. He even went so far as to curse anybody who distorted the evangel by doing so.

You said, "Upon what scripture do you base this?" referring to "We are not Israel, and we are not subject to its law!"

I think it's strange that you begin this post by reminding me that the law isn't the way and only Christ is, but that last question seems to imply that we should be Hebrew proselytes. When I said "We" I was referring to the ecclesia called out of all nations to be "the body of Christ." Those of us who have never been part of the nation of Israel have no reason to be subject to its law or customs for that matter. I realize some folks on this forum are interested in those customs, but we don't have to become Jews to follow Christ. That's why the risen Christ commissioned Saul outside the nation of Israel on the road to Damascus to bring the evangel to the nations who are saved in grace through faith apart from law.

21 Yet now, apart from law, a righteousness of God is manifest (being attested by the law and the prophets),
22 yet a righteousness of God through Jesus Christ's faith, for all, and on all who are believing, for there is no distinction,
23 for all sinned and are wanting of the glory of God." (Romans 3:21)

Maybe you are in Israel subject to its law, but I'm not. I'm in the U.S.A. subject to its secular law. Regarding spiritual law, this is the only one I'm subject to according to scripture.

"For the entire law is fulfilled in one word, in this: "You shall love your associate as yourself."" (Galatians 5:14)

You said, "(Scrpiture references, please...)" referring to "You may be interested in Hebrew culture and history, but the word of God says Israel has a different destiny than us." and "(scripture reference?)" referring to "They will be an earthly kingdom ruled by Christ while we have a "celestial" destiny."

All scripture, except Paul's epistles, concerns Israel and points toward the future earthly kingdom ruled by Christ.

http://concordant.org/expohtml/CorrectPartitioning/CorrectlyCutting.html

It is Paul's epistles that are the evangel for today during the time in which God has paused in his dealings with Israel while the nations are being evangelized. "The church" has not replaced Israel as some assume. God is faithful to his chosen people, the Jews, and they will have their promised kingdom in Israel. But Christ chose Paul to share the evangel for the nations of salvation in grace through faith apart from law, and it is we who have been chosen for the celestial destiny. There will be some Jews who will be snatched away with the rest of "the body of Christ" when he meets us in the air, but what follows that is the destiny of Israel as written in "The Unveiling Of Jesus Christ [Revelation]."

"The Lord will be rescuing me from every wicked work and will be saving me for His celestial kingdom: to Whom be glory for the eons of the eons. Amen!" (2 Timothy 4:18)

"6 and rouses us together and seats us together among the celestials, in Christ Jesus,
7 that, in the oncoming eons, He should be displaying the transcendent riches of His grace in His kindness to us in Christ Jesus." (Ephesians 2:6,7)

You said, "We know that when we are raised (resurrected) we will be given immortality, so we know we will live forever, in the true sense of the word.  A new heaven and earth will be prepared, and it will always be before Yahweh. Isaiah 66.22 - For as the new heavens and the new earth that I make shall remain before me, says the Lord, so shall your offspring and your name remain." referring to "At the consummation of the eons, we are told that all will be "vivified" and God will be "all in all," but no more information is given about who will be where. It seems that we must trust God about that to do the best thing for us whatever that may be."

I agree. So, at the consummation of the eons, it seems that the kingdom in Israel will be on earth which is what the Jews have always looked forward to. That is the earthly destiny of Israel that I was referring to while we in "the body of Christ" will have already been snatched away for our celestial destiny.


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[fortytworc]

Thank you who encouraged me to not bow out, but to continue discussion and questions. I have had a bad Parkinson's day and haven't been able to do much. I noticed several comments posted. A couple looked as long as I tend to be. (So nothing wrong with that ). I was able to give this whole thing some thought today and think there is one or two matters I want to address.
First was a feeling of gratitude for those who host this board. Thank You! A lot of time and energy and money goes into this and keeps it running. Also, my thanks to all the participators. Even within disagreement it seems evident to me that there are those who are concerned for truth,The Truth.  And most everyone seems to know the Scriptures well. Another thing is, When I first discovered this Board and posted my paper I had no desire to help someone agree with me. I just wanted to share (overused Christian word) my thoughts. When people responded more than I would've figured I had in my mind to see if the article could be totally dismantled, and handed to me as a pile of goo. Some comments have given me pause, but I still believe I am mostly correct. If seems OK I'd like to resume discussion. But I might need some help in my presentation so my ideas are understood.
Thank You, Thank! You! Thank You!

[jbertonbounds]

Christ was commissioned only to the lost sheep of Israel.

"I was not commissioned except for the lost sheep of the house of Israel." (Matthew 15:24)

When he spoke to them, he was speaking about them not the nations.

You said, "True, the Christ did not put down the law - he fulfilled it.  But one does not enter into the Kingdom of God through Judaism.  Judaism is the religion built by man, based on the law and the prophets.  They don't believe in Jesus.  Their religion is not going to serve as a gate of door for anyone to enter the Kingdom.  Jesus is the only way!  LAW + JESUS = SALVATION"..."The law and the prophets encourages good works, but no man can work his way into the Kingdom of God.  Jesus is the only way, the gate, the door, the way in."..."(What's the difference? It is stated that way because it is an integral part of the metaphor Jesus was speaking.  Had he been speaking in plain language instead of metaphor, then he would have said "few find life.")"

God gave the Jews the law to show them they couldn't overcome sin by their own works. I agree Christ is the only way.

"I am the Door. Through Me if anyone should be entering, he shall be saved, and shall be entering and coming out and will be finding pasture." (John 10:9)

"I am the Way and the Truth and the Life. No one is coming to the Father except through Me." (John 14:6)

But those are not the verses being discussed.
Those verses, IMO are relevant to this discussion.
The scripture referenced says nothing about "the Kingdom of God," but about "life."
Is that not life, to enter into the Kingdom of God?

"12 All, then, whatever you should be wanting that men should be doing to you, thus you, also, be doing to them, for this is the law and the prophets.
13 "Enter through the cramped gate, for broad is the gate and spacious is the way which is leading away into destruction, and many are those entering through it.
14 Yet what a cramped gate and narrowed way is the one leading away into life, and few are those who are finding it." (Matthew 7:12-14)

"12 Compare Lu.6:31.

12 To do as we would be done by is an ethical standard far above the world's attainment, yet far beneath the monitions of grace. The law and the prophets demand compliance with this code, yet supply no power to carry it out. Grace gives the ability, yet makes no demands, but rather entreats us to do as we have been done by in our dealings with God, rather than man.

13-14 Compare Lu.13:24.

13 The crowds enter a city by the broad road which passes through the wide gate. The narrow side-paths leading to a narrow gateway in some retired corner were seldom used and were always shut in the daytime and locked at night. Few find or use these paths. This is not an illustration of the gospel, but of the law. It represents an effort to attain life. It is not stated that few find life, but few find the path to it. All life is God's gift and can never be made by man, either in the sphere of religion or of science." (Concordant Commentary on the New Testament page 19)

"This is not an illustration of the gospel, but of the law. It represents an effort to attain life. It is not stated that few find life, but few find the path to it."

You said, "Paul said there was no difference between circumcision and uncircumcision."

"7 But, on the contrary, perceiving that I have been entrusted with the evangel of the Uncircumcision,
8 according as Peter of the Circumcision (for He Who operates in Peter for the apostleship of the Circumcision operates in me also for the nations),
9 and, knowing the grace which is being given to me, James and Cephas and John, who are supposed to be pillars, give to me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we, indeed, are to be for the nations, yet they for the Circumcision" (Galatians 2:7-9)
The distinction here is Jew vs. gentile.  They are still all just humans.  I do not see a different set of theology for the Jews than for the gentiles.  These people were segregated and it was necessary for them to send some to the Jews and some to the gentiles to spread the gospel message - which is for ALL people.
Scripture doesn't contradict itself, but sometimes folks make that false assumption due to confusion between the relative and the absolute.(Huh?)

http://concordant.org/expohtml/GodAndChrist/TheDeityOfGod5.html

Both the verses that you quoted and the ones that I quoted are true relatively speaking.
All scripture is true - period.  Not just true in a relative sense.
You said, "Has someone here presented a different gospel message from what Paul had preached?" referring to "But if ever we also, or a messenger out of heaven, should be bringing an evangel to you beside that which we bring to you, let him be anathema! As we have declared before and at present I am saying again, if anyone is bringing you an evangel beside that which you accepted, let him be anathema!" (Galatians 1:8,9)"

But that was referring to "The risen Christ commissioned Saul on the road to Damascus outside Israel to bring the evangel of the Uncircumcision to the nations which is salvation in grace through faith apart from Hebrew law. It is only because the church has intentionally confused the two distinct evangels of the Circumcision and the Uncircumcision that church folks believe the church has replaced Israel and is subject to its law. That is the distorted evangel that Paul cursed in Galatians."
Are Jews then not saved by grace through faith?
Some Jews tried to convince the Galatians that they had to subject themselves to Hebrew law, but Paul told them they didn't because they weren't Jews. He even went so far as to curse anybody who distorted the evangel by doing so.

You said, "Upon what scripture do you base this?" referring to "We are not Israel, and we are not subject to its law!"

I think it's strange that you begin this post by reminding me that the law isn't the way and only Christ is, but that last question seems to imply that we should be Hebrew proselytes.  I am not implying that.  When I said "We" I was referring to the ecclesia called out of all nations to be "the body of Christ." Those of us who have never been part of the nation of Israel have no reason to be subject to its law or customs for that matter. I realize some folks on this forum are interested in those customs, but we don't have to become Jews to follow Christ.  Has someone suggested that?  That's why the risen Christ commissioned Saul outside the nation of Israel on the road to Damascus to bring the evangel to the nations who are saved in grace through faith apart from law.

21 Yet now, apart from law, a righteousness of God is manifest (being attested by the law and the prophets),
22 yet a righteousness of God through Jesus Christ's faith, for all, and on all who are believing, for there is no distinction,
23 for all sinned and are wanting of the glory of God." (Romans 3:21)

Maybe you are in Israel subject to its law, but I'm not. I'm in the U.S.A. subject to its secular law. Regarding spiritual law, this is the only one I'm subject to according to scripture.  So now you are subject to the law?  You weren't a minute ago.  As a matter of fact, I'm glad you brought that up.  Who are Israel?  Historians tell us that they were dispersed after their captivity in Assyria.  They never returned, but migrated north and west, mostly into Europe.  From whom are we Americans descended?  Some historians believe that most European Americans are descended, in part, from Israel.  So now are we subject to the law?  How much Israelite heredity do I have to have to be subject to the law?

Consider this scripture:
Romans 11:11-24
11 So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. 12 Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!
13 Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry 14 in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them. 15 For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead? 16 If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches.
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root[c] of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. 19 Then you will say, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." 20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.

You see it really does not matter whether you are of the circumcised or the uncircumcised.  This grafting makes us all a part of Israel - THE SPIRITUAL ISRAEL, NOT THE NATIONALITY.  We are grafted in on the basis of belief (by grace through faith).

"For the entire law is fulfilled in one word, in this: "You shall love your associate as yourself."" (Galatians 5:14)

You said, "(Scrpiture references, please...)" referring to "You may be interested in Hebrew culture and history, but the word of God says Israel has a different destiny than us." and "(scripture reference?)" referring to "They will be an earthly kingdom ruled by Christ while we have a "celestial" destiny."
No, I want to know what scripture you are basing your belief upon.
All scripture, except Paul's epistles, concerns Israel and points toward the future earthly kingdom ruled by Christ.

http://concordant.org/expohtml/CorrectPartitioning/CorrectlyCutting.html

It is Paul's epistles that are the evangel for today during the time in which God has paused in his dealings with Israel while the nations are being evangelized. "The church" has not replaced Israel as some assume. I don't use the word "church" anymore.  I use the word "ecclesia."  The ecclesia does not replace Israel.  The ecclesia is the body of like-Christ-minded believers, whether or Israelite descent or not. God is faithful to his chosen people, the Jews, and they will have their promised kingdom in Israel. But Christ chose Paul to share the evangel for the nations of salvation in grace through faith apart from law, and it is we who have been chosen for the celestial destiny. There will be some Jews who will be snatched away with the rest of "the body of Christ" when he meets us in the air, but what follows that is the destiny of Israel as written in "The Unveiling Of Jesus Christ [Revelation]."

"The Lord will be rescuing me from every wicked work and will be saving me for His celestial kingdom: to Whom be glory for the eons of the eons. Amen!" (2 Timothy 4:18)
That was Paul speaking.  He was descended from Israel (the Israel of before the division of the kingdoms, to whom the law was given).
"6 and rouses us together and seats us together among the celestials, in Christ Jesus,
7 that, in the oncoming eons, He should be displaying the transcendent riches of His grace in His kindness to us in Christ Jesus." (Ephesians 2:6,7)

You said, "We know that when we are raised (resurrected) we will be given immortality, so we know we will live forever, in the true sense of the word.  A new heaven and earth will be prepared, and it will always be before Yahweh. Isaiah 66.22 - For as the new heavens and the new earth that I make shall remain before me, says the Lord, so shall your offspring and your name remain." referring to "At the consummation of the eons, we are told that all will be "vivified" and God will be "all in all," but no more information is given about who will be where. It seems that we must trust God about that to do the best thing for us whatever that may be."

I agree. So, at the consummation of the eons, it seems that the kingdom in Israel will be on earth which is what the Jews have always looked forward to. That is the earthly destiny of Israel that I was referring to while we in "the body of Christ" will have already been snatched away for our celestial destiny.

Remember, there are three Israels: (1) the biblical Israelites to whom the law was given, (2) the spiritual Israel, the olive tree into which all believing gentiles are grafted, and (3) the modern political entity, the country of Israel, which is made up of a hodgepodge of eastern and European peoples, which is not relevant to this discussion.

[jbertonbounds]

Thank you who encouraged me to not bow out, but to continue discussion and questions. I have had a bad Parkinson's day and haven't been able to do much. I noticed several comments posted. A couple looked as long as I tend to be. (So nothing wrong with that ). I was able to give this whole thing some thought today and think there is one or two matters I want to address.
First was a feeling of gratitude for those who host this board. Thank You! A lot of time and energy and money goes into this and keeps it running. Also, my thanks to all the participators. Even within disagreement it seems evident to me that there are those who are concerned for truth,The Truth.  And most everyone seems to know the Scriptures well. Another thing is, When I first discovered this Board and posted my paper I had no desire to help someone agree with me. I just wanted to share (overused Christian word) my thoughts. When people responded more than I would've figured I had in my mind to see if the article could be totally dismantled, and handed to me as a pile of goo. Some comments have given me pause, but I still believe I am mostly correct. If seems OK I'd like to resume discussion. But I might need some help in my presentation so my ideas are understood.
Thank You, Thank! You! Thank You!

Hey man, you're good with us! :thumbsup:

[fortytworc]

I've read the ongoing discussion, but it is quite a bit of info. Can someone give me the reader's digest version?

[Tom]

I've read the ongoing discussion, but it is quite a bit of info. Can someone give me the reader's digest version?

Yeah, here it is.

"12 All, then, whatever you should be wanting that men should be doing to you, thus you, also, be doing to them, for this is the law and the prophets.
13 "Enter through the cramped gate, for broad is the gate and spacious is the way which is leading away into destruction, and many are those entering through it.
14 Yet what a cramped gate and narrowed way is the one leading away into life, and few are those who are finding it." (Matthew 7:12-14)

"12 Compare Lu.6:31.

12 To do as we would be done by is an ethical standard far above the world's attainment, yet far beneath the monitions of grace. The law and the prophets demand compliance with this code, yet supply no power to carry it out. Grace gives the ability, yet makes no demands, but rather entreats us to do as we have been done by in our dealings with God, rather than man.

13-14 Compare Lu.13:24.

13 The crowds enter a city by the broad road which passes through the wide gate. The narrow side-paths leading to a narrow gateway in some retired corner were seldom used and were always shut in the daytime and locked at night. Few find or use these paths. This is not an illustration of the gospel, but of the law. It represents an effort to attain life. It is not stated that few find life, but few find the path to it. All life is God's gift and can never be made by man, either in the sphere of religion or of science." (Concordant Commentary on the New Testament page 19)

[Tom]

Christ was commissioned only to the lost sheep of Israel.

"I was not commissioned except for the lost sheep of the house of Israel." (Matthew 15:24)

When he spoke to them, he was speaking about them not the nations.

You said, "True, the Christ did not put down the law - he fulfilled it.  But one does not enter into the Kingdom of God through Judaism.  Judaism is the religion built by man, based on the law and the prophets.  They don't believe in Jesus.  Their religion is not going to serve as a gate of door for anyone to enter the Kingdom.  Jesus is the only way!  LAW + JESUS = SALVATION"..."The law and the prophets encourages good works, but no man can work his way into the Kingdom of God.  Jesus is the only way, the gate, the door, the way in."..."(What's the difference? It is stated that way because it is an integral part of the metaphor Jesus was speaking.  Had he been speaking in plain language instead of metaphor, then he would have said "few find life.")"

God gave the Jews the law to show them they couldn't overcome sin by their own works. I agree Christ is the only way.

"I am the Door. Through Me if anyone should be entering, he shall be saved, and shall be entering and coming out and will be finding pasture." (John 10:9)

"I am the Way and the Truth and the Life. No one is coming to the Father except through Me." (John 14:6)

But those are not the verses being discussed.
Those verses, IMO are relevant to this discussion.
The scripture referenced says nothing about "the Kingdom of God," but about "life."
Is that not life, to enter into the Kingdom of God?

"12 All, then, whatever you should be wanting that men should be doing to you, thus you, also, be doing to them, for this is the law and the prophets.
13 "Enter through the cramped gate, for broad is the gate and spacious is the way which is leading away into destruction, and many are those entering through it.
14 Yet what a cramped gate and narrowed way is the one leading away into life, and few are those who are finding it." (Matthew 7:12-14)

"12 Compare Lu.6:31.

12 To do as we would be done by is an ethical standard far above the world's attainment, yet far beneath the monitions of grace. The law and the prophets demand compliance with this code, yet supply no power to carry it out. Grace gives the ability, yet makes no demands, but rather entreats us to do as we have been done by in our dealings with God, rather than man.

13-14 Compare Lu.13:24.

13 The crowds enter a city by the broad road which passes through the wide gate. The narrow side-paths leading to a narrow gateway in some retired corner were seldom used and were always shut in the daytime and locked at night. Few find or use these paths. This is not an illustration of the gospel, but of the law. It represents an effort to attain life. It is not stated that few find life, but few find the path to it. All life is God's gift and can never be made by man, either in the sphere of religion or of science." (Concordant Commentary on the New Testament page 19)

"This is not an illustration of the gospel, but of the law. It represents an effort to attain life. It is not stated that few find life, but few find the path to it."

You said, "Paul said there was no difference between circumcision and uncircumcision."

"7 But, on the contrary, perceiving that I have been entrusted with the evangel of the Uncircumcision,
8 according as Peter of the Circumcision (for He Who operates in Peter for the apostleship of the Circumcision operates in me also for the nations),
9 and, knowing the grace which is being given to me, James and Cephas and John, who are supposed to be pillars, give to me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we, indeed, are to be for the nations, yet they for the Circumcision" (Galatians 2:7-9)
The distinction here is Jew vs. gentile.  They are still all just humans.  I do not see a different set of theology for the Jews than for the gentiles.  These people were segregated and it was necessary for them to send some to the Jews and some to the gentiles to spread the gospel message - which is for ALL people.
Scripture doesn't contradict itself, but sometimes folks make that false assumption due to confusion between the relative and the absolute.(Huh?)

http://concordant.org/expohtml/GodAndChrist/TheDeityOfGod5.html

Both the verses that you quoted and the ones that I quoted are true relatively speaking.
All scripture is true - period.  Not just true in a relative sense.
You said, "Has someone here presented a different gospel message from what Paul had preached?" referring to "But if ever we also, or a messenger out of heaven, should be bringing an evangel to you beside that which we bring to you, let him be anathema! As we have declared before and at present I am saying again, if anyone is bringing you an evangel beside that which you accepted, let him be anathema!" (Galatians 1:8,9)"

But that was referring to "The risen Christ commissioned Saul on the road to Damascus outside Israel to bring the evangel of the Uncircumcision to the nations which is salvation in grace through faith apart from Hebrew law. It is only because the church has intentionally confused the two distinct evangels of the Circumcision and the Uncircumcision that church folks believe the church has replaced Israel and is subject to its law. That is the distorted evangel that Paul cursed in Galatians."
Are Jews then not saved by grace through faith?
Some Jews tried to convince the Galatians that they had to subject themselves to Hebrew law, but Paul told them they didn't because they weren't Jews. He even went so far as to curse anybody who distorted the evangel by doing so.

You said, "Upon what scripture do you base this?" referring to "We are not Israel, and we are not subject to its law!"

I think it's strange that you begin this post by reminding me that the law isn't the way and only Christ is, but that last question seems to imply that we should be Hebrew proselytes.  I am not implying that.  When I said "We" I was referring to the ecclesia called out of all nations to be "the body of Christ." Those of us who have never been part of the nation of Israel have no reason to be subject to its law or customs for that matter. I realize some folks on this forum are interested in those customs, but we don't have to become Jews to follow Christ.  Has someone suggested that?  That's why the risen Christ commissioned Saul outside the nation of Israel on the road to Damascus to bring the evangel to the nations who are saved in grace through faith apart from law.

21 Yet now, apart from law, a righteousness of God is manifest (being attested by the law and the prophets),
22 yet a righteousness of God through Jesus Christ's faith, for all, and on all who are believing, for there is no distinction,
23 for all sinned and are wanting of the glory of God." (Romans 3:21)

Maybe you are in Israel subject to its law, but I'm not. I'm in the U.S.A. subject to its secular law. Regarding spiritual law, this is the only one I'm subject to according to scripture.  So now you are subject to the law?  You weren't a minute ago.  As a matter of fact, I'm glad you brought that up.  Who are Israel?  Historians tell us that they were dispersed after their captivity in Assyria.  They never returned, but migrated north and west, mostly into Europe.  From whom are we Americans descended?  Some historians believe that most European Americans are descended, in part, from Israel.  So now are we subject to the law?  How much Israelite heredity do I have to have to be subject to the law?

Consider this scripture:
Romans 11:11-24
11 So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. 12 Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!
13 Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry 14 in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them. 15 For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead? 16 If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches.
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root[c] of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. 19 Then you will say, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." 20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.

You see it really does not matter whether you are of the circumcised or the uncircumcised.  This grafting makes us all a part of Israel - THE SPIRITUAL ISRAEL, NOT THE NATIONALITY.  We are grafted in on the basis of belief (by grace through faith).

"For the entire law is fulfilled in one word, in this: "You shall love your associate as yourself."" (Galatians 5:14)

You said, "(Scrpiture references, please...)" referring to "You may be interested in Hebrew culture and history, but the word of God says Israel has a different destiny than us." and "(scripture reference?)" referring to "They will be an earthly kingdom ruled by Christ while we have a "celestial" destiny."
No, I want to know what scripture you are basing your belief upon.
All scripture, except Paul's epistles, concerns Israel and points toward the future earthly kingdom ruled by Christ.

http://concordant.org/expohtml/CorrectPartitioning/CorrectlyCutting.html

It is Paul's epistles that are the evangel for today during the time in which God has paused in his dealings with Israel while the nations are being evangelized. "The church" has not replaced Israel as some assume. I don't use the word "church" anymore.  I use the word "ecclesia."  The ecclesia does not replace Israel.  The ecclesia is the body of like-Christ-minded believers, whether or Israelite descent or not. God is faithful to his chosen people, the Jews, and they will have their promised kingdom in Israel. But Christ chose Paul to share the evangel for the nations of salvation in grace through faith apart from law, and it is we who have been chosen for the celestial destiny. There will be some Jews who will be snatched away with the rest of "the body of Christ" when he meets us in the air, but what follows that is the destiny of Israel as written in "The Unveiling Of Jesus Christ [Revelation]."

"The Lord will be rescuing me from every wicked work and will be saving me for His celestial kingdom: to Whom be glory for the eons of the eons. Amen!" (2 Timothy 4:18)
That was Paul speaking.  He was descended from Israel (the Israel of before the division of the kingdoms, to whom the law was given).
"6 and rouses us together and seats us together among the celestials, in Christ Jesus,
7 that, in the oncoming eons, He should be displaying the transcendent riches of His grace in His kindness to us in Christ Jesus." (Ephesians 2:6,7)

You said, "We know that when we are raised (resurrected) we will be given immortality, so we know we will live forever, in the true sense of the word.  A new heaven and earth will be prepared, and it will always be before Yahweh. Isaiah 66.22 - For as the new heavens and the new earth that I make shall remain before me, says the Lord, so shall your offspring and your name remain." referring to "At the consummation of the eons, we are told that all will be "vivified" and God will be "all in all," but no more information is given about who will be where. It seems that we must trust God about that to do the best thing for us whatever that may be."

I agree. So, at the consummation of the eons, it seems that the kingdom in Israel will be on earth which is what the Jews have always looked forward to. That is the earthly destiny of Israel that I was referring to while we in "the body of Christ" will have already been snatched away for our celestial destiny.

Remember, there are three Israels: (1) the biblical Israelites to whom the law was given, (2) the spiritual Israel, the olive tree into which all believing gentiles are grafted, and (3) the modern political entity, the country of Israel, which is made up of a hodgepodge of eastern and European peoples, which is not relevant to this discussion.

I have provided you with various scriptures to support my perspective.

I agree with this.

"in spirit the nations are to be joint enjoyers of an allotment, and a joint body, and joint partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus, through the evangel of which I became the dispenser, in accord with the gratuity of the grace of God, which is granted to me in accord with His powerful operation." (Ephesians 3:5-7)

http://concordant.org/expohtml/GeneralExpositions/RefuseTheRefuse.html

Maybe we should let the brother who started this thread continue his quest now.

[fortytworc]

Thank you, but maybe I should step aside. If the discussion has taken a turn in another direction, or if you think it has played itself out, or everyone is up to their necks with this topic I can roll with that.

[fortytworc]

While I am waiting I'll go ahead .

Matt 7:12 All those things, then, which you would have men do to you, even so do you to them: because this is the law and the prophets.
V. 13 Go in by the narrow door; for wide is the door and open is the way which goes to destruction and great numbers go in by it.
V. 14 for narrow is the door and hard the road to life and only a small number
make discovery of it.
Luke 13:24 Strive to enter in at the narrow gate: for many, I say to you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

Feel free to stop me at anytime if you need me to be clearer, or if I am going around in circles. One step at a time. Is Jesus part of these 4 verses?

[Tom]

Thank you, but maybe I should step aside. If the discussion has taken a turn in another direction, or if you think it has played itself out, or everyone is up to their necks with this topic I can roll with that.

Brother, this is your thread. Go for it. You don't need to yield to diversions. Anything off topic can be dealt with in another thread.

[Tom]

While I am waiting I'll go ahead .

Matt 7:12 All those things, then, which you would have men do to you, even so do you to them: because this is the law and the prophets.
V. 13 Go in by the narrow door; for wide is the door and open is the way which goes to destruction and great numbers go in by it.
V. 14 for narrow is the door and hard the road to life and only a small number
make discovery of it.
Luke 13:24 Strive to enter in at the narrow gate: for many, I say to you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

Feel free to stop me at anytime if you need me to be clearer, or if I am going around in circles. One step at a time. Is Jesus part of these 4 verses?

Jesus is speaking.

[Ross]

Hi;
Jesus indeed states that He is THE way, THE truth and THE life, NO MAN comes to the Father but by ME."
Also states  " No man comes unless the Father calls him." [ John 6;44]
Many strive to enter through Christ and claim they come in His authority.
Christ says that many will cast out demons in His name and yet He says I NEVER knew them.
All of this seems to highlight that no personal effort should be in the equation.
Does that make us useless?
IMO no: highlights that our position is through the work of Christ.
Many do not like this because seems to make this life pointless.
I like the concept that we are like princes through the work of Christ. A young prince has to learn the role and responsibility of his position while he is growing up. He will make many mistakes and will be lovingly corrected.
When he learns and comes of age he has the full authority and is sent to work for the king as if he indeed himself is king.
He works to please his father the king and has the blessings of the kingdom.
Now picture the magnitude of the kingdom of heaven as being greater than the eye/telescope or any other device can see.
The spiritual coming realm is the one that currently controls all aspects of the physical in which we now live.
We are to be above angels as sons/daughters of the Living God.
This, to me, highlights why we have to be equal in value and work out in a basis of love and humility so that we do not struggle against each other but work for the common good.
Hence we ALL come through Christ so that no-one can boast.
Hope this all helps; we are to be raised in glory.

[fortytworc]

Matthew 7:13-14 [ESV] ¹³ "Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy[a] that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. ¹⁴ For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few."

Luke 13:24 [ESV] "Strive to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able."

OK.  Perhaps I am not understanding what Fortytworc is saying in his essay.  So given the verses quoted above in red, I decided to do the same thing as was done in the essay attached to the OP - substitute.   Substitution is a valuable tool by which we can sometimes gain a better perspective on the meaning of the written word.  Since it is averred that the metaphorical gate/door is Judaism, I am going to substitute the phrases "the narrow gate" and "the narrow door" with the word "Judaism," in blue below.

Matthew 7:13-14 [ESV] ¹³ "Enter by Judaism. For the gate is wide and the way is easy[a] that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. ¹⁴ For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few."

Luke 13:24 [ESV] "Strive to enter through Judaism. For many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able."

My question is this:
Since Judaism was the religion of the Pharisees, as well as Jews today - who did not then and still today do not accept Jesus as the Messiah, then why would Jesus tell the people to enter through Judaism?

I will try to answer this.It had crossed my mind earlier today.
I think we tend to overlay our current knowlege of Scripture onto areas where it doesn't really belong. I'll use Law not Judaism. This might be one of those places.We have the benefit of looking back at things with current knowlege, especially Paul's writings. Jesus told them to enter by the Law because Israel was still under that taskmaster at that time.We know, with hindsight that salvation never was earned, but the Jews were to practice the law even while having faith which would be counted as rightiousness.
Another example of this is found here : Matt 19:16 Now someone came up to him and said, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to gain eternal life?"
Matt 19:17 He said to him, "Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."
Matt 19:18 "Which ones?" he asked. Jesus replied, "Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony,
Matt 19:19 honor your father and mother, and love your neighbor as yourself."
Matt 19:20 The young man said to him, "I have wholeheartedly obeyed all these laws. What do I still lack?"
Matt 19:21 Jesus said to him, "If you wish to be perfect, go sell your possessions and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
Matt 19:22 But when the young man heard this he went away sorrowful, for he was very rich.
I have always been told the rich man asked the wrong question. He should've asked "how should I be"? But he was a Jew and Jesus didn't tell him to leave the law.He most likely would not have said anything else to the young man except the man said he had followed the whole law since he was a child. Then Jesus told him ....Follow Me if you want to be perfect.
Jesus told the Religious leaders: Luke 11:42 "But woe to you Pharisees! You give a tenth of your mint, rue, and every herb, yet you neglect justice and love for God! But you should have done these things without neglecting the others." He told the people,
Matt 5:20 For I say to you, That unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall never enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Only Israel was given the Law. The rest of the world would later be blessed by Israel, but the world was not bound by the Law.The Law was narrow, hard to follow, and hard to find.

[Tom]

I understand what you're saying, and I include part of the quote from the Concordant Commentary already submitted.

"This is not an illustration of the gospel, but of the law. It represents an effort to attain life. It is not stated that few find life, but few find the path to it."

[fortytworc]

I've got to stop. My Parkinson's is making it next to impossible to type. See everybody later

[WhiteWings]

Thank you, but maybe I should step aside. If the discussion has taken a turn in another direction, or if you think it has played itself out, or everyone is up to their necks with this topic I can roll with that.

That's the way things are on this forum. Your thread actually did quite well. Some go off topic in the 1st reply  :winkgrin:
That can be irritating but not so unexpected because all things are connected.

So know it's not your topic but the kind of forum this is. Some are former Catholics, Jehova witnesses, Calvinists, you name it. Not a group of people from a certain denomination that are trained to think exactly alike.

[jbertonbounds]

Thank you, but maybe I should step aside. If the discussion has taken a turn in another direction, or if you think it has played itself out, or everyone is up to their necks with this topic I can roll with that.

That's the way things are on this forum. Your thread actually did quite well. Some go off topic in the 1st reply  :winkgrin:
That can be irritating but not so unexpected because all things are connected.

So know it's not your topic but the kind of forum this is. Some are former Catholics, Jehova witnesses, Calvinists, you name it. Not a group of people from a certain denomination that are trained to think exactly alike.

That's probably a good thing. :winkgrin:

[jbertonbounds]

I have provided you with various scriptures to support my perspective.
IMO, your scriptures refs don't support all you're saying.
I agree with this.
You agree with what?
"in spirit the nations are to be joint enjoyers of an allotment, and a joint body, and joint partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus, through the evangel of which I became the dispenser, in accord with the gratuity of the grace of God, which is granted to me in accord with His powerful operation." (Ephesians 3:5-7)

http://concordant.org/expohtml/GeneralExpositions/RefuseTheRefuse.html

Maybe we should let the brother who started this thread continue his quest now.
He is most welcome to jump in at any time.

[jbertonbounds]

I will try to answer this.It had crossed my mind earlier today.
I think we tend to overlay our current knowlege of Scripture onto areas where it doesn't really belong. I'll use Law not Judaism. This might be one of those places.We have the benefit of looking back at things with current knowlege, especially Paul's writings. Jesus told them to enter by the Law because Israel was still under that taskmaster at that time.  So, all this time you actually meant "law," not "Judaism?"    We know, with hindsight that salvation never was earned, but the Jews were to practice the law even while having faith which would be counted as rightiousness.  Yes.  Jesus fulfilled the law's requirement of penalty for sin at his death.  But since then, we (whether Jewish, gentiles, Greek, or of one of the lost tribes) are no longer required to keep the law as they were before Jesus' death.  Since Jesus' death, what we are required to keep is the essence, or summation of the law - Love and treat your neighbor as you would yourself.
Another example of this is found here : Matt 19:16 Now someone came up to him and said, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to gain eternal life?"
Matt 19:17 He said to him, "Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."
Matt 19:18 "Which ones?" he asked. Jesus replied, "Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony,
Matt 19:19 honor your father and mother, and love your neighbor as yourself."
Matt 19:20 The young man said to him, "I have wholeheartedly obeyed all these laws. What do I still lack?"
Matt 19:21 Jesus said to him, "If you wish to be perfect, go sell your possessions and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
Matt 19:22 But when the young man heard this he went away sorrowful, for he was very rich.
I have always been told the rich man asked the wrong question. He should've asked "how should I be"? But he was a Jew and Jesus didn't tell him to leave the law.He most likely would not have said anything else to the young man except the man said he had followed the whole law since he was a child. Then Jesus told him ....Follow Me if you want to be perfect.
Jesus told the Religious leaders: Luke 11:42 "But woe to you Pharisees! You give a tenth of your mint, rue, and every herb, yet you neglect justice and love for God! But you should have done these things without neglecting the others." He told the people,
Matt 5:20 For I say to you, That unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees (they were not keeping the essence of the law - in other words, they missed the whole point!), you shall never enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Only Israel was given the Law. The rest of the world would later be blessed by Israel, but the world was not bound by the Law.  No one, Jew or gentile, is bound by the law since Jesus fulfilled it - Jesus freed us from it - all of us!  The Law was narrow, hard to follow, and hard to find.  How was the law hard to find if Jesus' day?  The religious system was cramming it down their throats ALL THE TIME.  And, was is really narrow?  From what I have seen in the OT, it was extremely broad and complex!  If anything, the law was the broad gate, IMO.


Above all, remember these equations: 
LAW = DEATH
LAW + JESUS = LIFE
JESUS - LAW = LIFE

[WhiteWings]

I have the feeling it's closely connected to:

The Rich Young Ruler
17 As He was setting out on a journey, a man ran up to Him and knelt before Him, and asked Him, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" 18 And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone. 19 You know the commandments, 'Do not murder, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and mother.'" 20 And he said to Him, "Teacher, I have kept all these things from my youth up." 21 Looking at him, Jesus felt a love for him and said to him, "One thing you lack: go and sell all you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me." 22 But at these words [a]he was saddened, and he went away grieving, for he was one who owned much property.

That person found the gate but could not enter because he didn't want to give all he had away.

The parable of the needle and the camel has the same meaning. Camel is a wrong translation. It should be rope. The rope doesn't fit through the eye of the needle until it has become a thin thread by removing all excess threads (the money of the young man)

So the narrow gate may also be about leaving things behind. Money, manmade laws etc.

[jbertonbounds]

I have the feeling it's closely connected to:

The Rich Young Ruler
17 As He was setting out on a journey, a man ran up to Him and knelt before Him, and asked Him, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" 18 And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone. 19 You know the commandments, 'Do not murder, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and mother.'" 20 And he said to Him, "Teacher, I have kept all these things from my youth up." 21 Looking at him, Jesus felt a love for him and said to him, "One thing you lack: go and sell all you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me." 22 But at these words [a]he was saddened, and he went away grieving, for he was one who owned much property.

That person found the gate but could not enter because he didn't want to give all he had away.

The parable of the needle and the camel has the same meaning. Camel is a wrong translation. It should be rope. The rope doesn't fit through the eye of the needle until it has become a thin thread by removing all excess threads (the money of the young man)

So the narrow gate may also be about leaving things behind. Money, manmade laws etc.

LIKE

[fortytworc]

I may be reading you guys wrong but it looks like we may at least agree that whatever the narrow way, hard to find and hard to follow path was it was not Jesus. Is that accurate?

[WhiteWings]

fortytworc, I think the most safe conclusion is that we don't know. :laughing7:
I'm writing down thought as discussion points. I give my thoughts a good possibility to be true but most certainly won't say I'm convinced.

it was not Jesus. Is that accurate?

To answer your question more directly: Yes Jesus is the way.

John 14:6 Jesus said to him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes to the Father, but by me.

But as so often we can't take that literally. Jesus isn't a road neither is He a gate or a lamb. He's normal looking person. Not an animal (lamb) or a thing (road, gate).
Neither is He the truth; which is a concept. He is however the ultimate Teacher and Follower of the truth.

And that symbolic meaning opens some possibities. "I am the way" could mean "What I teach will save you". Lots of things God say are laws/commands. Looking at it that way it could be law related because following God's law certainly is a big part of being saved.
So I again want to point to my replies #21 and #23