"Is Jesus The Narrow Way?" A small step toward Christian Universalism

[fortytworc]

For all who have and are responding to my thoughts: Thank you. I have, and am considering all you are offering.Also, to put emphasis on this one point...I know Jesus said "I am the Way." I appreciate all who have been logical in going over what I have said. Spelling out where and why you disagree with me gives me something to think on. I am still listening and thinking. I believe I have addressed all points as given to me. Some have presented where they differ on some points but stop on others. Whenever I have a question about something I usually know what the status quo answer is. That is why I am not satisfied with any standard answers given about my post. when I know Jesus said,"I am the Way", and someone points this out to me as an answer to my point that He never says He is the narrow etc. way, that is not an answer. The two are different. Being exclusive does not equal being elusive, hard, hidden,etc.  I still welcome all responses. Dismantle my proposal. But do it logically with firm foundations. We may end up just disagreeing. I truly am honestly seeking to know if my thoughts have any foundation. I understand any dissonance occurring. I would ask that those experiencing it would try to realize that, though it doesn't make me right, it may be in the way of your ability to fully consider my proposal. Once again, Thank You All.I need to add : I suffer from Parkinson's' Disease and many times this delays and limits my time and the length of my responses. Thank you for your patience.

[jbertonbounds]

When you say "The broad gate is easy because... The narrow gate is hard to find because... The reasons you give are not given her. The why is not explained. You do not come across as heavy handed and maybe I could have phrased my observation differently. I do not mean to say you are like a pharisee. Forgive me if that is how it sounded. I know for myself, it is easy to 'see' where someone else needs to fall in line to be living as I think. So when you gave reasons why others may be or not be on a given way or at a given gate I guess I read my own inclinations into you, which was wrong of me to do. Please forgive me.
On another note, you say " the truth is hidden for the seekers. when Jesus said "many will seek to enter but will not be able...?
Thanks for your patience with me.

I am not offended.  There is nothing to forgive.  I just didn't understand how you meant it.

To call ourselves "seekers of the Truth" is not the same as those who seek to find their way to God by a way other than through Jesus.

[dajomaco]

 I am both a vessel made for destruction and a vessel made for honor.

The vessel made for destruction will be destroyed!
The path to destruction starts at birth.
We have all the evidence we need,
to know that death is the destruction of our mortality.

The vessel made for honor is immortal.

Being alive I have conciseness; I can be conscience (in real time and space) of the path that leads to destruction.
 
Being alive I have conciseness; I can be conscience (in real time and space) of the path that leads to
Life immortality.

The knowledge of good and evil is the way to the path of destruction.
The knowledge of good and evil is a very wide path.

The faith that Jesus met all of the requirements of Love.
The faith that Jesus met all of the requirements of Love for me .
I am free to look away from the science and field of the knowledge of good and evil.

The Holy Spirit brings glory to Jesus every time I am conscience of GOD.
I can have an open and honest relationship with God now
while I live and breathe in this body of death.

Science can separate and identify one atom from an other .

If we were to separate Good from Evil that separating line would be the ultimate
description of Narrow.

This to me is the Narrow way.
Not looking to God and having a conciseness of the good I have done for him.
Not looking to God and having a  conciseness of the evil I have done.

Rather looking in faith and being conscience of the Love the Father has for the Son.
The Holy Spirit constantly comforting me that the Lord is receiving,
the love I desire to give him.
The Love I receive from God freely given to me.
My whole being wants to respond to this Love.
I cannot respond to this Love while walking on the path to destruction (Good and Evil)

I can respond while on the narrow path by allowing the joy of knowing God.
On this path my joy is an acceptable sacrifice. (receiving joy).

These are my opinions and may or may not  be scriptural.

[jbertonbounds]

For all who have and are responding to my thoughts: Thank you. I have, and am considering all you are offering.Also, to put emphasis on this one point...I know Jesus said "I am the Way." I appreciate all who have been logical in going over what I have said. Spelling out where and why you disagree with me gives me something to think on. I am still listening and thinking. I believe I have addressed all points as given to me. Some have presented where they differ on some points but stop on others. Whenever I have a question about something I usually know what the status quo answer is. That is why I am not satisfied with any standard answers given about my post. when I know Jesus said,"I am the Way", and someone points this out to me as an answer to my point that He never says He is the narrow etc. way, that is not an answer. The two are different. Being exclusive does not equal being elusive, hard, hidden,etc.  I still welcome all responses. Dismantle my proposal. But do it logically with firm foundations. We may end up just disagreeing. I truly am honestly seeking to know if my thoughts have any foundation. I understand any dissonance occurring. I would ask that those experiencing it would try to realize that, though it doesn't make me right, it may be in the way of your ability to fully consider my proposal. Once again, Thank You All.I need to add : I suffer from Parkinson's' Disease and many times this delays and limits my time and the length of my responses. Thank you for your patience.

We were made social creatures, and we learn by sharing ideas.  I can assure you that I don't accept the status quo type of standard answers either.  I know all too well how the world has distorted so much of the scriptures and the gospel.  I too am a Truth seeker.  I question the common "standard" beliefs, and study deeply in the scriptures.  I listen for the Spirit's guidance and I pray for understanding and wisdom.  I am sure that I don't understand all things, nor do I have enough wisdom to put me above anyone else.  I am also sure that I may still have some of the old ET-trained responses in my repertoire, unawares.  I pray that my lord, Jesus, will purge these from me and teach me only his truth by his Spirit. :Pray:

[fortytworc]

I want truth. Ultimately Jesus is The Truth. I seek to walk in the truth. Being correct from time to time may be a bonus, but when all is said and done I want to hear my Lord and Savior say, "Well done Good and Faithful Servant." Hearing You were correct in most of your doctrine is not an option even mentioned in Scripture. Now I see dimly but then I will see Him face to face. I will be like Him for I will see Him as He is.

[fortytworc]

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/364-abraham-testament-of

  At this point an interesting picture of the Judgment of the Souls is presented: Two gates, one narrow and one wide, lead into heaven; and before them sits upon a golden throne a man whose appearance is terrible like that of the Lord. It is Adam, the image of the Lord (B. B. 58a); and all the souls pass by him—the just through the narrow gate and the wicked through the wide gate, each by his own merit or demerit, but none encumbered by Adam's sin (Tan., Num., ed. Buber, p. 124; Zohar, Gen. vii. 6). Abraham is allowed to watch the procedure of judgment within the wide gate.

I just came across this url to an entry in The Jewish Encyclopedia. I copied an excerpt from it. It would appear that when Jesus spoke of the narrow and wide gates the people would understand them to have some reference, or connection to an ancient Jewish belief of an experience Abraham supposedly had  while watching "The Judgment of Souls". Both gates lead into heaven and split into two gates, one narrow and one wide. The souls are judged by their works and goonto each respective gate by their merit. If Jesus was speaking to Jewish listeners they would relate those gates to this tradition. Since Jesus had not yet been crucified He was most likely speaking in terms they would understand at that time rather than of a gate with which they had no reference. This helps substantiate my assertion that He was speaking of Judaism and not Himself as the door, gate...

[WhiteWings]

I want truth. Ultimately Jesus is The Truth. I seek to walk in the truth. Being correct from time to time may be a bonus, but when all is said and done I want to hear my Lord and Savior say, "Well done Good and Faithful Servant."

That would be good but the very minimum.
The 'ranks' (=covenats) are servant, friendship, inheritance, marriage.

[WhiteWings]

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/364-abraham-testament-of

  At this point an interesting picture of the Judgment of the Souls is presented: Two gates, one narrow and one wide, lead into heaven; and before them sits upon a golden throne a man whose appearance is terrible like that of the Lord. It is Adam, the image of the Lord (B. B. 58a); and all the souls pass by him—the just through the narrow gate and the wicked through the wide gate, each by his own merit or demerit, but none encumbered by Adam's sin (Tan., Num., ed. Buber, p. 124; Zohar, Gen. vii. 6). Abraham is allowed to watch the procedure of judgment within the wide gate.

I just came across this url to an entry in The Jewish Encyclopedia. I copied an excerpt from it. It would appear that when Jesus spoke of the narrow and wide gates the people would understand them to have some reference, or connection to an ancient Jewish belief of an experience Abraham supposedly had  while watching "The Judgment of Souls". Both gates lead into heaven and split into two gates, one narrow and one wide. The souls are judged by their works and goonto each respective gate by their merit. If Jesus was speaking to Jewish listeners they would relate those gates to this tradition. Since Jesus had not yet been crucified He was most likely speaking in terms they would understand at that time rather than of a gate with which they had no reference. This helps substantiate my assertion that He was speaking of Judaism and not Himself as the door, gate...

Jesus used lots of terms the Jews understood. I think they understood (almost) all of it. But not on all levels.
Lamb, branch, harvests, messiah were all very well known things in Judaism. Does that mean none of them are also point to Jesus because they were all traditions. Prophesies of, say, Daniel were also well known. So they can't point to Jesus?

I think this is what happened. First of all with all laws God sorta forced certain patterns in Jewish society and because of that Jesus teachings made sense. Those patterns were carefully crafted before the beginning of time. God guided their steps so to speak.  So the their customs where not as manmade as many seem to think. Who gave that vision abou the gates? Only Father can do such things. So again some guiding is going on. The whole vision could be a fable. That's true. But even then it doesnt mean it can't be align with the truth.

[fortytworc]

If a pastor stood up on a Sunday morning and said, "Jesus said, 'I am the Narrow Door through Whom you  must enter. For the door that leads to destruction is wide, and the way is open. Many go in by the wide door. But I am the Narrow Door. Through Me the road to life is hard. Only a small number even discover Me.' "In another place Jesus said, 'I am the Narrow Gate. You must strive to enter Me. Many will seek to enter through Me but they will not be able.' " Most of the listeners would notice that Jesus was saying that He is 1.) Hard to find. 2.) That the few who do find Him must strive (work very hard) to enter by Him 3.) Those will not be able to enter by  Him. Is this not what Jesus was saying if He is the narrow door or the narrow gate? If He is the narrow door and the narrow gate hasn't He just said, "Only a small number discover Me. Those who discover Me must strive to enter but they will not be able to."? Is there any place in Scripture that speaks this way concerning Jesus?
Here are all of the "I AM..." Statements made by or about Jesus in the New Testament:
John 6:51:"I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever;"
John 8:23: And He said to them, "You are from beneath; I AM from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.
John 8:12: Then Jesus spoke to them again, saying, "I AM the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life."
John 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."
John 10:9: "I AM the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture."
John 10:11: "I AM the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.
John 10:36: "do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'?
John 11:25: Jesus said to her, "I AM the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live.
John 14:6: Jesus said to him, "I AM the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
John 15:1: "I AM the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
John 19:21: Therefore the chief priests of the Jews said to Pilate, "Do not write, 'The King of the Jews,' but, 'He said, "I am the King of the Jews."'"
Acts 9:5  And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks
Nowhere does Jesus say "I am the Narrow...I am hard to find...I am one you must strive to enter...If you do find me and strive to enter by me you will not be able."
Jesus is the Way and the Door. But He is not the hard to enter way or door.
On the contrary; He says if we see we will find Luke 11:9. And He Seeks Us! Luke 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.
These are why it finally did not make since that Jesus was saying He was the narrow way that was hard to find and impossible to enter. This  is why I think What I have proposed is a step toward Christian Universalism. Where am I mistaken here?

[fortytworc]

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/364-abraham-testament-of

 

Jesus used lots of terms the Jews understood. I think they understood (almost) all of it. But not on all levels.
Lamb, branch, harvests, messiah were all very well known things in Judaism. Does that mean none of them are also point to Jesus because they were all traditions. Prophesies of, say, Daniel were also well known. So they can't point to Jesus?

I think this is what happened. First of all with all laws God sorta forced certain patterns in Jewish society and because of that Jesus teachings made sense. Those patterns were carefully crafted before the beginning of time. God guided their steps so to speak.  So the their customs where not as manmade as many seem to think. Who gave that vision abou the gates? Only Father can do such things. So again some guiding is going on. The whole vision could be a fable. That's true. But even then it doesnt mean it can't be align with the truth.

You make a lot of assumptions.
I was just trying to establish that there are references to the narrow gate and wide gate which predate Jesus statements here; therefore it is at least possible He could be speaking of something other than Himself.without assuming a lot of stuff.

[JulieTang84]

The truth is Not hard to find. It is IMPOSSIBLE!!!

Jhn 6:44
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

Only Father leads us to truth, it simply cannot be found. However, one must indeed narrow ones beliefs and ego in order to Realize this. Jesus said to become as a child for a reason. What Father holds love from child? Not a Father of Love.

Love Julie    :HeartThrob:

[jbertonbounds]

If a pastor stood up on a Sunday morning and said, "Jesus said, 'I am the Narrow Door through Whom you  must enter. For the door that leads to destruction is wide, and the way is open. Many go in by the wide door. But I am the Narrow Door. Through Me the road to life is hard. Only a small number even discover Me.' "In another place Jesus said, 'I am the Narrow Gate. You must strive to enter Me. Many will seek to enter through Me but they will not be able.' " Most of the listeners would notice that Jesus was saying that He is 1.) Hard to find. 2.) That the few who do find Him must strive (work very hard) to enter by Him 3.) Those will not be able to enter by  Him. Is this not what Jesus was saying if He is the narrow door or the narrow gate? If He is the narrow door and the narrow gate hasn't He just said, "Only a small number discover Me. Those who discover Me must strive to enter but they will not be able to."? Is there any place in Scripture that speaks this way concerning Jesus?
Here are all of the "I AM..." Statements made by or about Jesus in the New Testament:
John 6:51:"I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever;"
John 8:23: And He said to them, "You are from beneath; I AM from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.
John 8:12: Then Jesus spoke to them again, saying, "I AM the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life."
John 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."
John 10:9: "I AM the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture."
John 10:11: "I AM the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.
John 10:36: "do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'?
John 11:25: Jesus said to her, "I AM the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live.
John 14:6: Jesus said to him, "I AM the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
John 15:1: "I AM the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
John 19:21: Therefore the chief priests of the Jews said to Pilate, "Do not write, 'The King of the Jews,' but, 'He said, "I am the King of the Jews."'"
Acts 9:5  And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks
Nowhere does Jesus say "I am the Narrow...I am hard to find...I am one you must strive to enter...If you do find me and strive to enter by me you will not be able."
Jesus is the Way and the Door. But He is not the hard to enter way or door.
On the contrary; He says if we see we will find Luke 11:9. And He Seeks Us! Luke 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.
These are why it finally did not make since that Jesus was saying He was the narrow way that was hard to find and impossible to enter. This  is why I think What I have proposed is a step toward Christian Universalism. Where am I mistaken here?

There are lots of pastors out there teaching lots of distorted doctrines.

Jesus was not saying that.  He was saying that few are they who find the Truth (He is Truth).  If it was easy, many would find truth.  Look at the world around you - is that the case?  To find Truth, one must humble and deny himself, one must seek, one must have faith and remain steadfast.  These aren't things we do to earn our way.  They are things the Father gives us and draws us into.  The easy thing to do is to trust in ones own understanding and logic, feed ones own desires, and seek to satisfy oneself.

No.  To say such things would be a gross distortion of what Jesus was saying.  I, personally, have never heard a preacher say those things.

[WhiteWings]

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/364-abraham-testament-of

 

Jesus used lots of terms the Jews understood. I think they understood (almost) all of it. But not on all levels.
Lamb, branch, harvests, messiah were all very well known things in Judaism. Does that mean none of them are also point to Jesus because they were all traditions. Prophesies of, say, Daniel were also well known. So they can't point to Jesus?

I think this is what happened. First of all with all laws God sorta forced certain patterns in Jewish society and because of that Jesus teachings made sense. Those patterns were carefully crafted before the beginning of time. God guided their steps so to speak.  So the their customs where not as manmade as many seem to think. Who gave that vision abou the gates? Only Father can do such things. So again some guiding is going on. The whole vision could be a fable. That's true. But even then it doesnt mean it can't be align with the truth.

You make a lot of assumptions.
I was just trying to establish that there are references to the narrow gate and wide gate which predate Jesus statements here; therefore it is at least possible He could be speaking of something other than Himself.without assuming a lot of stuff.

fortytworc, did you present anything besides assumptions?
You start with an assumption. Repeat is several times without taking the time to answer the replies of others. Then you post an article that doesn't prove your view either. But what I wrote about it is well known fact. Unless of course you reject all parallels between feasts/customs and Jesus.

:dontknow:
 

[jbertonbounds]

The truth is Not hard to find. It is IMPOSSIBLE!!!

Jhn 6:44
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

Only Father leads us to truth, it simply cannot be found. However, one must indeed narrow ones beliefs and ego in order to Realize this. Jesus said to become as a child for a reason. What Father holds love from child? Not a Father of Love.

Love Julie    :HeartThrob:

LIKE

[fortytworc]

There are lots of pastors out there teaching lots of distorted doctrines.

Jesus was not saying that.  He was saying that few are they who find the Truth (He is Truth).  If it was easy, many would find truth.  Look at the world around you - is that the case?  To find Truth, one must humble and deny himself, one must seek, one must have faith and remain steadfast.  These aren't things we do to earn our way.  They are things the Father gives us and draws us into.  The easy thing to do is to trust in ones own understanding and logic, feed ones own desires, and seek to satisfy oneself.

No.  To say such things would be a gross distortion of what Jesus was saying.  I, personally, have never heard a preacher say those things.
[/quote]

I am trying to say that the truth has been distorted. I may not be coming across as humble, but if anyone was here with me they would see my face, hear my tone of voice and realize that though I am trying to be logical I am in no way trusting in logic. I am not trying to feed my own desires except the desire to have Him show me the truth. Self satisfaction is not what I want. I have,by His grace alone been steadfastly walking with Him for over 46 years. I just want to know Him....and the fellowship of His suffering. Not know about Him. I have felt that He has shown me more of Himself in revealing this other way to see this Scripture. I have kept asking these questions because I truly am wanting to know. I have raised 5 children and one thing a child does is ask questions. They ask boldly with the expectation that the adults know the answers. Sometimes their questions make us uncomfortable, but they ask. Maybe I should stop. I don't know.

[WhiteWings]

There are lots of pastors out there teaching lots of distorted doctrines.

Even worse. Each and every person that ever walked the earth. Of course with one well known exception.

Jesus was not saying that.  He was saying that few are they who find the Truth (He is Truth).  If it was easy, many would find truth.  Look at the world around you - is that the case?  To find Truth, one must humble and deny himself, one must seek, one must have faith and remain steadfast.  These aren't things we do to earn our way.  They are things the Father gives us and draws us into.  The easy thing to do is to trust in ones own understanding and logic, feed ones own desires, and seek to satisfy oneself.

Finding the truth is hard with a zillion doctrines and sticking to that doctrine even harder.

No.  To say such things would be a gross distortion of what Jesus was saying.  I, personally, have never heard a preacher say those things.

I have to phrase this carefully to avoid  :punish:
I think we all have seen the calculations that 95% ends in hell. To me that means they won't find the narrow gate and/or not enter it. And of course Jesus said something similar. Not many will enter.
I think we can agree on that. The reason why is far more interesting to discus.
I'll state a question and answer it with a few possibilities.

a]
Why many don't find the narrow gate?
- They simply aren't interested in religion or even hate it.
- Wrong religion.
- Their denomination is so sick they never will find the gate.

b]
If they they found it why can't they enter?
- Not because Father or Son set some sort of quotum.
- Because knowing a fact doesn't mean it can be easily followed up.

Example: We all know some excercise is healty. People who know that found the narrow gate so to speak. But 10 years later they still didn't do those sport activities (do things Jesus' way). So they can't enter. Not because Jesus didn't allow the to enter. The person had to lose some weight (earthly stuff) to fit through the narrow gate.

:2c:

[jbertonbounds]

I am trying to say that the truth has been distorted. I may not be coming across as humble, but if anyone was here with me they would see my face, hear my tone of voice and realize that though I am trying to be logical I am in no way trusting in logic. I am not trying to feed my own desires except the desire to have Him show me the truth. Self satisfaction is not what I want. I have,by His grace alone been steadfastly walking with Him for over 46 years. I just want to know Him....and the fellowship of His suffering. Not know about Him. I have felt that He has shown me more of Himself in revealing this other way to see this Scripture. I have kept asking these questions because I truly am wanting to know. I have raised 5 children and one thing a child does is ask questions. They ask boldly with the expectation that the adults know the answers. Sometimes their questions make us uncomfortable, but they ask. Maybe I should stop. I don't know.

Luke 10:21 [ESV]
In that same hour he rejoiced in the Holy Spirit and said, "I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children; yes, Father, for such was your gracious will.

[jbertonbounds]

I have to phrase this carefully to avoid  :punish:
I think we all have seen the calculations that 95% ends in hell. To me that means they won't find the narrow gate and/or not enter it. And of course Jesus said something similar. Not many will enter.
I think we can agree on that. The reason why is far more interesting to discus.
I'll state a question and answer it with a few possibilities.

a]
Why many don't find the narrow gate?
- They simply aren't interested in religion or even hate it.
- Wrong religion.
- Their denomination is so sick they never will find the gate.

b]
If they they found it why can't they enter?
- Not because Father or Son set some sort of quotum.
- Because knowing a fact doesn't mean it can be easily followed up.

Example: We all know some excercise is healty. People who know that found the narrow gate so to speak. But 10 years later they still didn't do those sport activities (do things Jesus' way). So they can't enter. Not because Jesus didn't allow the to enter. The person had to lose some weight (earthly stuff) to fit through the narrow gate.

:2c:

Love that analogy.  I thing it sums it up pretty well. :thumbsup:

[fortytworc]

I'll bow out then. I want to thank everyone for your help, participation, and patience with me. Forgive any negativity on my part. Walk with God, always. Jesus is Lord!

[rosered]

I'll bow out then. I want to thank everyone for your help, participation, and patience with me. Forgive any negativity on my part. Walk with God, always. Jesus is Lord!

  Dont  bow out  fortyworc     
     the way     for me to see it , its simple in this sense
  If you could only see Jesus   as the Living  right now   , the tree of Life and   only  the SON / and those  hidden in the son   now 
you would see that    the narrow way   that leads to Life is found in Christ
  the rest are dead  , all dead   still ,  still    even as Jesus said ,  in their sins , the thives and robbers    ,  the example those two whom also hung on  the cross with Jesus   at the same time
  one died in faith and  in forgivness  and  was sent to paradise  with Jesus that day , they other it does not say ,  for me, is still dead

[WhiteWings]

I'll bow out then. I want to thank everyone for your help, participation, and patience with me. Forgive any negativity on my part. Walk with God, always. Jesus is Lord!

Don't do that man. You have a strong opinion. Others, me included, also stand up for their view. That's iron sharpens iron.
Sometimes no agreement is met. That's life....
Maybe you could present the same view in other words. Examples. Verses to support your view. Even if you are 100% correct people won't change their view when an opinion is repeated over and over in the same way.

:friendstu:

[JulieTang84]

I'll bow out then. I want to thank everyone for your help, participation, and patience with me. Forgive any negativity on my part. Walk with God, always. Jesus is Lord!

Yes Please stay fortyworc. This is not a contest even though the ego might have us feel it is. The simple truth is that we are all brothers and sisters holding onto the little light that we have. Sometimes it is difficult to see the light of others until we have learned not to be blinded by our own. This is something that being here, is helping us all.


Much Love,
Julie

[Tom]

I'll bow out then. I want to thank everyone for your help, participation, and patience with me. Forgive any negativity on my part. Walk with God, always. Jesus is Lord!

If you read my original post in this thread, I presented information that agrees with your perspective. Don't get frustrated trying to get everybody to agree with you, bro. That never happens to me here either. Just present what you believe is the truth according to your perspective, and be willing to accept the different perspectives of others here on the forum. No two people are going to agree on everything. Just ask any married couple. For your sake, I have copied the text from my original post and pasted it to this one. Check it out, brother, and don't be discouraged.

"12 All, then, whatever you should be wanting that men should be doing to you, thus you, also, be doing to them, for this is the law and the prophets.
13 "Enter through the cramped gate, for broad is the gate and spacious is the way which is leading away into destruction, and many are those entering through it.
14 Yet what a cramped gate and narrowed way is the one leading away into life, and few are those who are finding it." (Matthew 7:12-14)

"12 Compare Lu.6:31.

12 To do as we would be done by is an ethical standard far above the world's attainment, yet far beneath the monitions of grace. The law and the prophets demand compliance with this code, yet supply no power to carry it out. Grace gives the ability, yet makes no demands, but rather entreats us to do as we have been done by in our dealings with God, rather than man.

13-14 Compare Lu.13:24.

13 The crowds enter a city by the broad road which passes through the wide gate. The narrow side-paths leading to a narrow gateway in some retired corner were seldom used and were always shut in the daytime and locked at night. Few find or use these paths. This is not an illustration of the gospel, but of the law. It represents an effort to attain life. It is not stated that few find life, but few find the path to it. All life is God's gift and can never be made by man, either in the sphere of religion or of science." (Concordant Commentary on the New Testament page 19)

[jbertonbounds]

Matthew 7:13-14 [ESV] ¹³ "Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy[a] that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. ¹⁴ For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few."

Luke 13:24 [ESV] "Strive to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able."

OK.  Perhaps I am not understanding what Fortytworc is saying in his essay.  So given the verses quoted above in red, I decided to do the same thing as was done in the essay attached to the OP - substitute.   Substitution is a valuable tool by which we can sometimes gain a better perspective on the meaning of the written word.  Since it is averred that the metaphorical gate/door is Judaism, I am going to substitute the phrases "the narrow gate" and "the narrow door" with the word "Judaism," in blue below.

Matthew 7:13-14 [ESV] ¹³ "Enter by Judaism. For the gate is wide and the way is easy[a] that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. ¹⁴ For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few."

Luke 13:24 [ESV] "Strive to enter through Judaism. For many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able."

My question is this:
Since Judaism was the religion of the Pharisees, as well as Jews today - who did not then and still today do not accept Jesus as the Messiah, then why would Jesus tell the people to enter through Judaism?

[Tom]

Matthew 7:13-14 [ESV] ¹³ "Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy[a] that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. ¹⁴ For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few."

Luke 13:24 [ESV] "Strive to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able."

OK.  Perhaps I am not understanding what Fortytworc is saying in his essay.  So given the verses quoted above in red, I decided to do the same thing as was done in the essay attached to the OP - substitute.   Substitution is a valuable tool by which we can sometimes gain a better perspective on the meaning of the written word.  Since it is averred that the metaphorical gate/door is Judaism, I am going to substitute the phrases "the narrow gate" and "the narrow door" with the word "Judaism," in blue below.

Matthew 7:13-14 [ESV] ¹³ "Enter by Judaism. For the gate is wide and the way is easy[a] that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. ¹⁴ For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few."

Luke 13:24 [ESV] "Strive to enter through Judaism. For many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able."

My question is this:
Since Judaism was the religion of the Pharisees, as well as Jews today - who did not then and still today do not accept Jesus as the Messiah, then why would Jesus tell the people to enter through Judaism?

Christ didn't put down the law, only the hypocrisy of the Pharisees who claimed to live by the law but invalidated it with their corrupt tradition just like the church and its tradition today invalidates the word of God.

"You should not infer that I came to demolish the law or the prophets. I came not to demolish, but to fulfill. For verily, I am saying to you, Till heaven and earth should be passing by, one iota or one serif may by no means be passing by from the law till all should be occurring." (Matthew 5:17,18)

"you invalidate the word of God because of your tradition" (Matthew 15:6)

The first verse of what we've been discussing gives the subject about what Christ was speaking.

"12 All, then, whatever you should be wanting that men should be doing to you, thus you, also, be doing to them, for this is the law and the prophets.
13 "Enter through the cramped gate, for broad is the gate and spacious is the way which is leading away into destruction, and many are those entering through it.
14 Yet what a cramped gate and narrowed way is the one leading away into life, and few are those who are finding it." (Matthew 7:12-14)

That's why the Concordant Commentary says this.

"12 Compare Lu.6:31.

12 To do as we would be done by is an ethical standard far above the world's attainment, yet far beneath the monitions of grace. The law and the prophets demand compliance with this code, yet supply no power to carry it out. Grace gives the ability, yet makes no demands, but rather entreats us to do as we have been done by in our dealings with God, rather than man.

13-14 Compare Lu.13:24.

13 The crowds enter a city by the broad road which passes through the wide gate. The narrow side-paths leading to a narrow gateway in some retired corner were seldom used and were always shut in the daytime and locked at night. Few find or use these paths. This is not an illustration of the gospel, but of the law. It represents an effort to attain life. It is not stated that few find life, but few find the path to it. All life is God's gift and can never be made by man, either in the sphere of religion or of science." (Concordant Commentary on the New Testament page 19)

Christ was commissioned to Israel who was given the law by God, and, when Christ returns to rule Israel, they will still have their law because there will be some who will be condemned to death for violating the law, and their corpses will be cast into Gehenna. That is what Christ was referring to in Isaiah 66:23,24, but church doctrine has distorted the truth by intentionally changing the word of God in twelve verses to give the impression that Gehenna is "hell," a place where those who die as unbelievers will be tortured alive in fire forever. 

"And it will come to be, as often as the new moon comes in its monthly time, And as often as the sabbath comes in its sabbath cycle, All flesh shall come to worship before Me, says Yahweh. And they will go forth and see the corpses of the mortals who transgressed against Me, For their worm shall not die, And their fire shall not be quenched, And they will become a repulsion to all flesh." (Isaiah 66:23,24)

The risen Christ commissioned Saul on the road to Damascus outside Israel to bring the evangel of the Uncircumcision to the nations which is salvation in grace through faith apart from Hebrew law. It is only because the church has intentionally confused the two distinct evangels of the Circumcision and the Uncircumcision that church folks believe the church has replaced Israel and is subject to its law. That is the distorted evangel that Paul cursed in Galatians.

"But if ever we also, or a messenger out of heaven, should be bringing an evangel to you beside that which we bring to you, let him be anathema! As we have declared before and at present I am saying again, if anyone is bringing you an evangel beside that which you accepted, let him be anathema!" (Galatians 1:8,9)

We are not Israel, and we are not subject to its law!

"For the entire law is fulfilled in one word, in this: "You shall love your associate as yourself."" (Galatians 5:14)

We are not even "the church." We are "the ecclesia" called out of the world, including the world religious system, the church, to be "the body of Christ." You may be interested in Hebrew culture and history, but the word of God says Israel has a different destiny than us. They will be an earthly kingdom ruled by Christ while we have a "celestial" destiny, but the word of God is only concerned with the eons. At the consummation of the eons, we are told that all will be "vivified" and God will be "all in all," but no more information is given about who will be where. It seems that we must trust God about that to do the best thing for us whatever that may be.