It's a jungle!

[Gem4Him]

Greetings all!  I'm new and yet as I have barely perused some of the threads, I have to be honest and say, as it often is in forums such as this....It's a jungle in here!  :eek:  What I mean is, while it is beneficial to us for some sense of community, the plethora of opinions and degrees of knowledge and illumination are mind-boggling!  If I didn't have a significant relationship with the Holy Spirit, who alone is our Teacher (according to the gospel of John's recording of Jesus' words about the Spirit), I can tell you right now, IMHO, there is no point in all of our discussions and opinions about things beyond earthly understanding such as UR and "UR not."  :gimmefive:  I am a passionate truth lover and truth seeker and I have been in this thing called "Christianity" for many years, been through many movements, churches, ministries, etc. on a journey to really know my Father God.  I just recently came into the "UR orbit" and have been reading and pondering deeply.  I know I cannot return to the old way of believing in permanent punishment for the wicked.  My heart "screams at me" that UR has to be true or I could just as easily be one of the permanently condemned as not!  But there are SO MANY differing ideas and interpretations about all the aspects and issues surrounding such weighty topics.  We must not forget that God is a heart-God and not impressed with our intellects and theologies or eschatologies.  He is first and foremost relational, and Love is the summation of all He is and also our true origin and identity in His image and likeness.  I know it's Love that has caused many here to become UR, eh?  Well, let's keep that Love as our focus and not get too carried away with great knowledge and philosophical opinions that seem to trail on and on. Folks, it's never ending, and only our hearts carry those things most valuable and helpful where suffering abounds outside our front door. People's hearts are damaged from life and fears about death, and they need a personal encounter with the Living Christ through us, not so much our great debates over "things unseen."  ("But we see Jesus...")  :dsunny:

If I met you outside of this forum, can I love you one step further into Truth (Christ!) from right where you are in your current deficit and trust God to get you all the way Home?  I can't get you Home via my opinions and "knowing in part" perspectives but I hope that I would be able to act kindly and reveal Jesus to you whether I use words or not!  That's why we are here on the planet, to reveal Jesus as the full and true expression of our Creator-Father's heart of forgiving Love, beyond Scripture, beyond denominations, tradition, and culture (or a multitude of internet blogs and web sites!)!  :2c:

Discuss, but let your actions reflect your security in God's Love and be your best communication ever! (1 Cor. 8:1-3)

Blessings to all!
Gem4Him

[Tom]

Greetings all!  I'm new and yet as I have barely perused some of the threads, I have to be honest and say, as it often is in forums such as this....It's a jungle in here!  :eek:  What I mean is, while it is beneficial to us for some sense of community, the plethora of opinions and degrees of knowledge and illumination are mind-boggling!  If I didn't have a significant relationship with the Holy Spirit, who alone is our Teacher (according to the gospel of John's recording of Jesus' words about the Spirit), I can tell you right now, IMHO, there is no point in all of our discussions and opinions about things beyond earthly understanding such as UR and "UR not."  :gimmefive:  I am a passionate truth lover and truth seeker and I have been in this thing called "Christianity" for many years, been through many movements, churches, ministries, etc. on a journey to really know my Father God.  I just recently came into the "UR orbit" and have been reading and pondering deeply.  I know I cannot return to the old way of believing in permanent punishment for the wicked.  My heart "screams at me" that UR has to be true or I could just as easily be one of the permanently condemned as not!  But there are SO MANY differing ideas and interpretations about all the aspects and issues surrounding such weighty topics.  We must not forget that God is a heart-God and not impressed with our intellects and theologies or eschatologies.  He is first and foremost relational, and Love is the summation of all He is and also our true origin and identity in His image and likeness.  I know it's Love that has caused many here to become UR, eh?  Well, let's keep that Love as our focus and not get too carried away with great knowledge and philosophical opinions that seem to trail on and on. Folks, it's never ending, and only our hearts carry those things most valuable and helpful where suffering abounds outside our front door. People's hearts are damaged from life and fears about death, and they need a personal encounter with the Living Christ through us, not so much our great debates over "things unseen."  ("But we see Jesus...")  :dsunny:

If I met you outside of this forum, can I love you one step further into Truth (Christ!) from right where you are in your current deficit and trust God to get you all the way Home?  I can't get you Home via my opinions and "knowing in part" perspectives but I hope that I would be able to act kindly and reveal Jesus to you whether I use words or not!  That's why we are here on the planet, to reveal Jesus as the full and true expression of our Creator-Father's heart of forgiving Love, beyond Scripture, beyond denominations, tradition, and culture (or a multitude of internet blogs and web sites!)!  :2c:

Discuss, but let your actions reflect your security in God's Love and be your best communication ever! (1 Cor. 8:1-3)

Blessings to all!
Gem4Him

Amen, brother, and welcome.

[bj127]

Welcome Gem4Him.  I appreciated your post.  I agree it does get hairy in here.  At times I find going through the posts very comforting.  At other times, I seriously consider not coming back.  IMO this is what happens when groups gather to share opinions.  It's "church" all over again.  It's possible God in His wisdom keeps the number of those that see the truth small in number and generally geographically distant.   :2c:

[Deena]

Seek God for the truth and in His wisdom and timing it will be revealed. If He chooses to reveal, be prepared to be amazed. All is of Him. Praise God that it is not left up to us.

[Lazarus Short]

All of us here need to keep in mind that we (Laz, too) are first-graders sitting in on a Master Class.

Keep it humble.  Keep it loving.  :friendstu: :gimmefive: :friendstu: :gimmefive:

[WhiteWings]

 : welcome: to the jungle where the sheep lays with the lion.

[irenic-inkwell]

: welcome: to the jungle where the sheep lays with the lion.

An interesting POV... quite reasonable ... as it comes from one who has been in this jungle for a very long time...  and perhaps quite Scriptural:  lion=Lion of Judah; sheep=my sheep hear My voice (John 10:1-9)

[jbertonbounds]

Jungle. 
Good analogy.
The lion is the king of the jungle.
The king of this jungle is the Lion of the tribe of Judah.

Welcome.
We're humans. 
We're going to mess it up sometimes.
Oh well.
Someday we'll all be reconciled to our God, Yahweh.
All of us.

[eaglesway]

All of us here need to keep in mind that we (Laz, too) are first-graders sitting in on a Master Class.

Keep it humble.  Keep it loving.  :friendstu: :gimmefive: :friendstu: :gimmefive:

Beautiful. A pathway of light to lead us out the jungle and up into the highlands of Zion :o)

[marie glen]

I cannot help myself, i am about to do what this original post is warning against..

I've really come to think that we have basically only one difference with mainstream Christianity. The view of what the lake of fire is.. But, I don't think complete unity of the body or even of the U.R. segment of the body, will occur until the Holy Spirit gives to us complete clarity (which seems to me will be like a seal on the forehead to go with the one on our heart). Then we will all speak with the same tongue. (Confusion of tongues, I believe, in the world and in the body is a manifestation of the fallen world).

We are still one because of the "bond of peace' which the Holy Spirit gives because we do have the "seal of God on our heart, which the proof, guarantee, notary of, is our hearts cry of "Father! my Father!". He sheds His love abroad in our hearts, which can allow for differences.

I agree people who wander in won't understand everything.. but hopefully something..!

I believe the truth, is simple to understand and see.. I think we keep things confused by seeking to answer questions about U.R. in ways that are not needed. Example, if the lake of fire the 2nd death is exactly that.. and death and the grave will be "gone" - that's not hard to explain.

It's also not hard to explain the FALSENESS of the idea one can only be reconciled to God in this life before they die. I mean, where are the verses? When Jesus told the pharisees they would "die in their sins" I believe this simply means they will rise in their sins.. then what? Well, if the ancient Spring Holy Days were fulfilled by the 1st advent of Jesus, then surely the Fall Holy Days are the pattern given to us, telling us believers what will unfold during the loong 2nd advent.

The idea the 2nd resurrection rises+and-is cast to the lake of fire is not, in my opinion, correct. I believe a whole heck of a lot goes on in between the 2nd resurrection and the last verse of the chapter, which says basically, anyone not believing will go to the 2nd death.. (What does it require to be written in the Book of Life? to believe.)

So imagine you never believed, or, you never heard the gospel. You find yourself after you have died and been in the grave, rising to life.

Then you find out what the gospel was, over the course of what surely, i believe, has to be a very long day of the review, examination and "judgment" of all things, all human history, etc. [Not a pleasant review I'm thinking! But what Holy Teacher worth His salt isn't going to have "summary" and "review"??]

How long will it take for you to "believe"? And where does it say repentance and afflicting one's soul psyche/heart and mind over ones flaws, sins and wrongdoings can only occur this side of death? And not after the resurrection, the one where they will rise still in their sins (in a sense, still DOA, dead on arrival).

If we could be shown by the Holy Spirit what will occur with the 2nd resurrection, perhaps we wouldn't have to find confusing twisty ways of explaining away the LOF. Just my opinion, and I do apologize, I mean no disrespect and hope it doesn't come across that way, but of course I think i'm right, and I think it's important, or let's say, it would be nice, or it will be nice when we have complete, 100% clarity concerning all doctrine and can see the entire plan of God involving this life,etc.. I believe God's Truth, surely, is simple and extremely easy to understand.. Unbelievers have no trouble hearing this babbling of mine. They can understand what I'm saying, i've never had an un-believer not understand what I'm saying and talking about when it comes to UR and the 'afterlife' so called punishment and judgment, but what I think is review and day of atonement revealed to all who were not 'lucky' enough to be part of "the elect" (only because in a truth proving drama, like with a movie, you need more than one character. So if all is God's will, why should the 2nd resurrection go through a process any different than the one we did, but simply at a different time?)

The calendar of the 2nd advent - imo - is represented and typified by (1) Trumpets, ten days of - 1000 years, a millennium of Trumpets, which begins at His return.

(2) DOA-Day of Atonement in lieu of Day of Judgment, or with DOJ. (5 days til, typifying 1/2 a millennium, at the end of, imo, is LOF of any still not believing, and the devil/scapegoat of Lev16 {and his angels?} and death and the grave ='ing imo, gone and are no more)

which is (3)Tabernacles, when God makes all things new (earth, universe, all things including all of the 2nd resurrection). And Father Almighty will dwell with man..

Outside of that is the dogs and unbelievers, but by then i believe all of that is over and gone but is a for ever and eternity memory.. the smoke of which rises up for ever and throughout the eternities, never to be forgotten, deeply engraved upon every heart, mind and psyche.

Sorry, I do apologize.. yet if I hold these things in and hide them under a bushel i just might explode! :laughing7:

[marie glen]

Beautiful. A pathway of light to lead us out the jungle and up into the highlands of Zion :o)

beautiful!! 'someone' has the heart of a poet.. :thumbsup: :banana:

[eaglesway]

:o)

[mplsfitter539]

Welcome Gem4Him,

Enjoy your time hear, it sounds as though you have already learned the lessons I am beginning to learn now.

[JulieTang84]

Greetings all!  I'm new and yet as I have barely perused some of the threads, I have to be honest and We must not forget that God is a heart-God and not impressed with our intellects and theologies or eschatologies.  He is first and foremost relational, and Love is the summation of all He is and also our true origin and identity in His image and likeness.  I know it's Love that has caused many here to become UR, eh?  Well, let's keep that Love as our focus and not get too carried away with great knowledge and philosophical opinions that seem to trail on and on. Folks, it's never ending, and only our hearts carry those things most valuable and helpful where suffering abounds outside our front door. People's hearts are damaged from life and fears about death, and they need a personal encounter with the Living Christ through us, not so much our great debates over "things unseen."  ("But we see Jesus...") 

Words from my own Spirit filled heart Gem4Him.

Thank you :HeartThrob:

Love Julie

[sheila]

Don't forget TRUTH! or the Spirit of TRuth that declares all that belongs unto Christ....

or the Bereans that examined the scriptures to see thatit wasso.

   and please don't say Ilove you..while saying  ....shut up! whenI share anything

Ifeel is worthwhile that I have found  inthe scriptures!!!!


     I shall be an advocate for truth and understanding....especially since Babylon  has

been so prolific in causing lie's.   otherwise,wouldn't we have to erase all the writings

offered onthissight? or all the conversations/questionss onthis board.....andreplace

itwith....'ALL YOU NEED IS LOVE...BELEIVE US....ALL YOU NEED IS LOVE.............


  CHRIST HAS A MIND,ALSO

   I ask you...who are all love? Can youmake room in your heart for truth?

   in this world full of deceit from satan...people are hungry for TRUTH,also..they have questions!

  what about Peter saying Paul shared some things that are hard to be understood..andthat

many had twisted them?

  Please Iask you...why are you dis-heartening me from posting/discussing things on this

board?  I don'tget it! Where is this coming from? :dontknow:

[JulieTang84]

Don't forget TRUTH! or the Spirit of TRuth that declares all that belongs unto Christ....

or the Bereans that examined the scriptures to see thatit wasso.

   and please don't say Ilove you..while saying  ....shut up! whenI share anything

Ifeel is worthwhile that I have found  inthe scriptures!!!!


     I shall be an advocate for truth and understanding....especially since Babylon  has

been so prolific in causing lie's.   otherwise,wouldn't we have to erase all the writings

offered onthissight? or all the conversations/questionss onthis board.....andreplace

itwith....'ALL YOU NEED IS LOVE...BELEIVE US....ALL YOU NEED IS LOVE.............


  CHRIST HAS A MIND,ALSO

   I ask you...who are all love? Can youmake room in your heart for truth?

   in this world full of deceit from satan...people are hungry for TRUTH,also..they have questions!

  what about Peter saying Paul shared some things that are hard to be understood..andthat

many had twisted them?

  Please Iask you...why are you dis-heartening me from posting/discussing things on this

board?  I don'tget it! Where is this coming from? :dontknow:

Dear Sheila,  :HeartThrob:


I believe what Gem4Him was implying and certainly what was behind my response is that "debating" or cordial arguing over Scripture is not becoming of Love and likewise not indicative of TRUTH.


I will try to explain it like this. Scripture makes it very clear that Father has given a different proportions of Love, Understanding and need I say Truth to some over that of others. Scripture even states that Father has pretty much dried up the hearts of many. What I am trying to say is the "No one can claim any knowledge that isn't given from Father." Yes, even the Eternal Damnationer's believe because Father has not enable a greater measure of LOVE in their hearts. They are playing according to what they have been given.


Are not we here, the same? It is pointless debating one another over some given understanding, because unless one is in the Spiritual place required to understand, they simply will not. Father knows fool that I am that I have tried more than once to get my point across. Why? So that I can be as Father and laud it over all else? My intentions are of no value if I believe that I can open the eyes/heart of another. It is LOVE or the Spirit of Truth that does this. As Paul said: He plants the seed, and Father MAKES it grow.


So to your point of "Sharing" things that have been revealed to you. Is not sharing, planting seeds? Sharing and discussing in the Spirit of LOVE is NEVER BAD. As wherever and whenever Love is Present so is the Spirit (Christ) just as Jesus promised.


Everyone has opinions, and certainly I have my share, but opinions are not absolute unabated knowledge. If they were, they would not be an opinion. Not that I am saying that all opinions are bad, for an opinion is just a "seed" that has begun to sprout. Be it on fertile soil or rocky ground is yet to be determined. Scripture teaches that Knowledge without Love is useless, for without Love, there is no Spirit of Truth and therefore will only ever be an opinion. Of course and opinion could be sown with much love and with loving discussion might even begin to grow, but if it is NOT TRUTH Father will soon let it whither.


We must never forget that even our Faith is a gift from Father:


Eph 2:8, 9
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.


Sharing, discussing is one thing, needing to be right - is another.


Please never stop posting Sheila  :HeartThrob:


Love Julie

[sheila]

but there are differences in POV Julie....andIlike tohear both. sides.with the brother's reasoning

from the scriptures of what makes them beleiveit is so . I don't like discord either.....

   it actually 'wrecks' the two different pov's that some may be trying toexpress............

   debate..tofight,CONTEND..todiscuss opposing reasons......

   we are told tocontend..but we are to cntend according to the rules.

  Paul contends in his letters tothe church against superfine apostle's.......

   Jesus speaks of coming and'fighting/contending" with the swordof Hismouth Rev 2;16

  thescriptures are chocked full of prophet's contending with  different leaders etc...

the false prophets.  Elijah contended with the prophets of Baals and groves.


   is this because afew days ago.. there was a discord ontwo diffeent veiws? that'sgoing

to hppen ocassionally.....did Paul callPeter a hypocrite?   did Paul  disagree with Brnabus?

in Acts 15;39...didthey not have different pov"s........

   soamongst the prophets,Elijah,satan andMichel'sdispute,Jesus contending with the Pharisees

etc and His word that He will again..if need be...IS NOT BECOMING OF LOVE

AND LIKEWISE NOT INDICATIVE OF TRUTH?

   peace at the cost of truth is not peace...........

REVELATION OF CHRIST..ch 19 11-21   what'sthis?

[sheila]

Look!  More horses....Zechariah 1; 7..... the angelof the Lord who was standing among the myrtle

trees....'we have gonethroughout the whole world andfound the whole world at rest

  andin peace.."  I am very jealous for Jerusalem.

[sheila]

 there is a woman..whose 'heart' is a trap and snare....she says...my husban hasgone on

  along journey.....let us drink deep of love  Prvrbs 7;18  let'senjoy ourselveswith love

      fellwship offerings she has......Prvrbs 7........the husband is NOTin her house


   Prvbs 8  Wisdom's call....Does not Wisdom cllout?  DOES NOT UNDERSTANDING RAISE

HER VOICE?  I,Wisdom,dwell togather with Prudence; I possess Knowledge And

discretion.  To fear the Lordisto hateevil;I hate prideaand arrogance,evil behaviour

and perverse speech. Counsel and sound judgements are mine;I have understanding and

power.  By mekings reignnd rulers make laws that are just,By meprinces govern and

all nobles who rule onthe earth

[JulieTang84]

but there are differences in POV Julie....andIlike tohear both. sides.with the brother's reasoning

from the scriptures of what makes them beleiveit is so . I don't like discord either.....

   it actually 'wrecks' the two different pov's that some may be trying toexpress............

   debate..tofight,CONTEND..todiscuss opposing reasons......

   we are told tocontend..but we are to cntend according to the rules.

  Paul contends in his letters tothe church against superfine apostle's.......

   Jesus speaks of coming and'fighting/contending" with the swordof Hismouth Rev 2;16

  thescriptures are chocked full of prophet's contending with  different leaders etc...

the false prophets.  Elijah contended with the prophets of Baals and groves.


   is this because afew days ago.. there was a discord ontwo diffeent veiws? that'sgoing

to hppen ocassionally.....did Paul callPeter a hypocrite?   did Paul  disagree with Brnabus?

in Acts 15;39...didthey not have different pov"s........

   soamongst the prophets,Elijah,satan andMichel'sdispute,Jesus contending with the Pharisees

etc and His word that He will again..if need be...IS NOT BECOMING OF LOVE

AND LIKEWISE NOT INDICATIVE OF TRUTH?

   peace at the cost of truth is not peace...........

REVELATION OF CHRIST..ch 19 11-21   what'sthis?

Discussing:  Seeking to understand (love)

Debating:  Seeking to PROVE a point (ego)

Peace is not Truth but Truth is Peace.

Jesus taught both  :HeartThrob:

Love Julie

[sheila]

Wisdomis proved right by all her children......Acts 9;22  Yet Saul/Paul grewmore andmore

powerful and baffled theJews living inDamscus..by PROVING that

Jesusis the Christ   Acts 17;3 explaining and proving that the Christ had tosuffer

andrise  from the dead.

  ego?

[sheila]

that's all I am going to say onit...I feel I have presented my perspective...itis up t each

one us individually....to  speakfrom the heart..in any matter. Ido not wishendless debates

that breakdown intosenseless arguing,either.

[lomarah]

Don't forget TRUTH! or the Spirit of TRuth that declares all that belongs unto Christ....

or the Bereans that examined the scriptures to see thatit wasso.

   and please don't say Ilove you..while saying  ....shut up! whenI share anything

Ifeel is worthwhile that I have found  inthe scriptures!!!!


     I shall be an advocate for truth and understanding....especially since Babylon  has

been so prolific in causing lie's.   otherwise,wouldn't we have to erase all the writings

offered onthissight? or all the conversations/questionss onthis board.....andreplace

itwith....'ALL YOU NEED IS LOVE...BELEIVE US....ALL YOU NEED IS LOVE.............


  CHRIST HAS A MIND,ALSO

   I ask you...who are all love? Can youmake room in your heart for truth?

   in this world full of deceit from satan...people are hungry for TRUTH,also..they have questions!

  what about Peter saying Paul shared some things that are hard to be understood..andthat

many had twisted them?

  Please Iask you...why are you dis-heartening me from posting/discussing things on this

board?  I don'tget it! Where is this coming from? :dontknow:

A lot of wisdom here, thanks Sheila.

[WhiteWings]

Discussing:  Seeking to understand (love)

Debating:  Seeking to PROVE a point (ego)

Peace is not Truth but Truth is Peace.

All nice definitions. But not so helpful in real life.
When does a discussion turns into a debate?
Should we sacrifice truth to keep peace? The answer to that last question seems to be no. Jesus could have peacefully walked away many times but He stood up for His belief and made His opponents look like idiots.
I'm sure He also had discussions without offending people, likely He even prefered it that way. But my point is that He never ever seem to back out of a discussion to keep peace.

[mplsfitter539]

Discussing:  Seeking to understand (love)

Debating:  Seeking to PROVE a point (ego)

Peace is not Truth but Truth is Peace.

All nice definitions. But not so helpful in real life.
When does a discussion turns into a debate?
Should we sacrifice truth to keep peace? The answer to that last question seems to be no. Jesus could have peacefully walked away many times but He stood up for His belief and made His opponents look like idiots.
I'm sure He also had discussions without offending people, likely He even prefered it that way. But my point is that He never ever seem to back out of a discussion to keep peace.

If keeping peace is anything like being politically correct then you can see where it leads. We here should be able to be honest with each other. I personally want to know how the things I believe to be true line up with others who are following Yahshua.