"Is Jesus The Narrow Way?" A small step toward Christian Universalism

[fortytworc]

I would like to post a brief paper I have written concerning what Jesus was speaking of regarding the narrow gate and difficult way. Find it as an attatchment with this post. Thank you.

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[Lazarus Short]

I'm still reading the essay, but one thing struck me, and I wanted to reply right away.

You quoted Luke:    Luke 13:24 Strive to enter in at the narrow gate: for many, I say to you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

I think this ties in with what Jesus said elsewhere (don't remember chapter/verse) that the Pharisees neither entered the kingdom themselves, nor did they allow those were were entering in to enter.

[fortytworc]

It connects with the Matthew verse "and few will even discover it", along with the statistic that says ony .22% of the worlds' population claim to be practicing, religious Jews.

[Lazarus Short]

Are you saying that it is to their advantage that they are Jews?

[fortytworc]

I am saying that Judeism was the 'strait gate, narrow way, difficult path' of which Jesus was speaking.

[Lazarus Short]

OK, I can understand that, thanks.

[jabcat]

I'll look at the paper, but in context then, not being a practicing Jew would mean destruction...you probably address that in the paper.  I'll see what you have to say there.  :)

[jabcat]

I'm unable to open it, says Windows needs the know the program, etc..

[fortytworc]

No. Jesus was a jewish rabbi speaking to jews. The way of the Law was the narrow way. Few would even make discovery of it, and "many, I say to you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able." That is in contrast to"My yoke is easy and my burden is light." "Whoever wants to may come"

[fortytworc]

I had to go with a newer vesion of Microsoft Office. You can download a 'compatability program' for free which should allow you to keep using your current version and also open newer documents.

[jabcat]

No what?  Oh, I think you must have written your response when my post was a question, but I had edited it.  As I'm sure you already know, the rest of the same sentence is about the broad way to destruction - which is where my comparison comes from.  You said "Judaism" was the narrow way, so then in that context, not being a practicing Jew would be destruction (it seems to me).

I understand Jesus was primarily speaking to the Jews (in most if not all things during His earthly ministry, IMO) which is what I was going to point out prior to your post.  Since I can't open the article I looked a little elsewhere, and I see where some Jewish groups claim the Torah is the narrow (correct) way.  So now with you saying the way of the Law is the narrow way (which would indeed be a large part of being a practicing Jew), then within that context, not practicing the Law would lead to destruction.   I guess in essence, saying "Judaism" and "keeping the Law" would be the same/very similar, but somehow saying practicing the Law hits home more TO ME.  Maybe that's just my understanding.      All that said, yes, Jesus said His yoke is easy, burden light, whoever wants may come, etc.    So that seems reasonable as you say, that it's a contrast.   

Two related points though, again, without being able to see the paper.  He also said He is THE Way, so that would need to be distinctly shown as separate from the "narrow path" in the verse in question (and maybe it can be done, I just hadn't thought of it before).   Also, again, Him contrasting the narrow path and the wide to destruction, to me indicates one is the exact opposite of the other, and I'm not sure how that would fit.  Because I don't think He would be saying "the wide road to destruction is not practicing Judaism but rather it's believing in Me";  so if not that, how would not practicing Judaism lead to destruction?  I'll have to think about that and how it might fit together, including the accurate contrast.

[jabcat]

OK, I'll see if I can open it some other way, thanks.  You may/probably address the issues that occur to me with this premise already in your paper. 

[jabcat]

Re: practicing the Law..as we know, can't save anyone - it shows sin, not redeems from it.  Well, it's an interesting thought, and you may be right..I'd personally just need some things reconciled in their context, which again, maybe you address..I won't comment any further until I can see your paper to see what you really say, unless there are other specifics mentioned out here on the boards.  :)

[jabcat]

Hmm, still getting the Windows can't open message..I'm usually able to open about anything.  My computer's not that old, although I think I am running IE7..I'll keep working on it, and we can also see if others are having any issues opening it or not.  Sounds like Laz got it OK.  Thanks, I'll let you know.

[fortytworc]

Here it is as a .txt

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[jabcat]

OK, I was able to read it on the other thread for some reason.  I like it, and it does seem to fit.  I'm having some dissonance though, probably for 2 reasons.  One, as I said, I'd never thought exactly of the narrow way being Judaism/Law keeping, and two, I'd need to either reconcile or rightly divide/cut the various references He made between the narrow way and all the other things He said about Himself to the Jews.  You noted several of them, I just need to ponder them a bit and look a little more.  But besides the contrast within that one particular sentence issue I'd mentioned before (that if narrow way is Judaism, what is the broad way to destruction?  Surely not believing in Him, so what was He talking about..), I think it makes a lot of sense.   Maybe there's a good explanation to that that will reconcile it for me, just not there yet, not seeing it yet.

It sounds like you and I may at least be on the same wavelength though with context and Jesus' earthly ministry.  I probably swim upstream with many believers, including here, because I personally think we need to be VERY careful about mish-mashing scriptures together to try to make one certain point, when they may actually have different primary audiences and points within the scriptures themselves (i.e., for example,  "endure to the end".  What end?  The end of that age of Law, the final That Day at the end of this age, or what?  I tend to think it's the former).  But anyway, that's kind of off topic  :punish:

[jabcat]

if narrow way is Judaism, what is the broad way to destruction?  Surely not believing in Him, so what was He talking about..), I think it makes a lot of sense.   Maybe there's a good explanation to that that will reconcile it for me, just not there yet, not seeing it yet.

Thinking out loud here...perhaps that IN THAT AGE not keeping the Law/truly practicing the way of Judaism would keep one out of favor with God, and the consequences of that suffered?  As noted, this was prior to the cross, our current "age of grace" to the nations and any believing Jews), when strict observance of The Law, sacrifice, etc. was required..?  Hmmm, need to process some more... 

[fortytworc]

I was speaking with someone this weekend on the topic of this paper and I saw him physically going through some the dissonance you speak of. I tend to think outside the box and can look into something I have never been taught, but this friend would say, "I see what you are say... NO, It can't mean that!" He actually could NOT Allow himself to think of the narrow way, or stait gate being anything else but Jesus. Now I can hardly think of this in any way other than I say in the paper.

[jabcat]

"I see what you are say... NO, It can't mean that!" He actually could NOT Allow himself to think of..

Well if we said that, we probably wouldn't be here.   :laughing7:

I believe dissonance is OK and normal, if it's accepted along with the motivation to be open and keep searching.   :thumbsup:

[fortytworc]

jabcat: You seem to be digging more technically into this than I intended. Or maybe I don't understand your questions. My purpose was to point out that The narrow door, strait gate, difficult way,etc. was not what we have been taught. Jesus is not the narrow, hard...If I have missed something and it turns out that it wasn't Judaism He was speaking of the main thing is it wasn't Himself.

[jabcat]

Sorry, I'm one that needs everything to reconcile, i.e., not have other scriptures that dispute what I believe - if so, then I need to change my belief.  Or if they all do reconcile, I can be more comfortable saying "I believe it's so".    So as I said, what you say makes a lot of sense and you very well may be right, there are just some other questions I need answered (for me) to be able to say for sure.  Maybe later I can make my questions make more sense..was sort of typing in a hurry.   :heat:  I'll think about it some more.  Blessings.

[WhiteWings]

No. Jesus was a jewish rabbi speaking to jews. The way of the Law was the narrow way. Few would even make discovery of it, and "many, I say to you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able." That is in contrast to"My yoke is easy and my burden is light." "Whoever wants to may come"

My first thought when I read the quoted part:

During Jesus' time there were 2 sets of laws that the Jews believed made a person righteous.

613 Mosaic laws.
OR
7 Noahide laws.

What if narrow doesn't mean 'very hard' but few in number?
The wide 613 lane road was so hard to navigate failure was a fact.

The reason few Jews would find it was that they kept following the impossible 613 laws wide road.

:dontknow: :dontknow:
:dontknow:

[WhiteWings]

The seven laws listed by the Tosefta and the Talmud are:
The prohibition of Idolatry.
The prohibition of Murder.
The prohibition of Theft.
The prohibition of Sexual immorality.
The prohibition of Blasphemy.
The prohibition of eating flesh taken from an animal while it is still alive.
The requirement of maintaining courts to provide legal recourse.

[WhiteWings]

But Jesus never says "I AM the narrow gate." Or "I AM the difficult way." He could've called himself any of these but He did not. He says He Is The Only Way, but never the Narrow, Difficult, Hidden Way.
  2.) Would any doctrine change had He clearly stated He was the door, gate, or way we should work to enter?

Gate=door ?



Deuteronomy is Devarim in Hebrew.

Devarim  in Hebraic understanding means the "mouth" of  Torah; a summarizing all that has happened before in "the main body."

Another word for this book in Hebrew is Suf Debar – last words.  It contains Moshe's last words, his farewell discourse and a song to Israel.

Agriculturally, Devarim/Deuteronomy means to point back to a food source, or head of the house.

Devarim is:  Dalet-bet-resh = Devar (word).  Dalet being the door, bet/resh is bar, the son. Debar, The Word is the door through which the Son comes.

Deuteronomy = Devarim = The Word is the door through which the Son comes.

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[fortytworc]

I hope to clear some of this up and maybe work out some of the bugs in my presentation of this whole concept. Here Goes: Jesus says there is a narrow door and a wide door (Matt 7:13). There is a narrow door and a hard road leading to life (Matt 7:14) There is a narrow gate(Luke13:24).
We have been taught that Jesus is the narrow door and the narrow gate that leads to life. After obtaining this life we then begin to live the Christian life which is a hard road to walk. If we don't enter into salvation by Him we are on the broad road to destruction.
Jesus says here that very few ever discover the narrow door (Matt.7:14). If we do discover the narrow gate we are told to strive (work very hard) to enter it.But even after this striving we probably won't be able t enter it.
My first conclusion is that the narrow door and gate is not Jesus. Jesus is not hidden. We are never told to work hard to receive salvation through him but we probably will not be able to enter into it after all. Jesus is the only way to salvation, but being exclusive does not equal being elusive.
So, if the narrow gate and hard road is not Jesus what is it? The only answer that makes sense to me is Judaism.  It is trying to obtain salvation through obeying the Law.  It doesn't matter whose law or how many laws. Living by the law puts you on the road to destruction. Salvation is found only through Jesus. A salvation by the law is the same as being on the broad road. If the narrow way and gate is not Judaism that doesn't mean it is Jesus. I am convinced it is not Jesus. There are too many ways that this clashes and contradicts what  we know about Jesus. and salvation.