The logic surrounding none will be lost --A start?--

[VineBranch]

Hey Guys:

I'm working on a fist step to show that none of us will be lost.  The first hurdle for me is to try to understand that notion from scripture.  I was wondering if you might take a look at the logic so far and see if you can find a hole.  Everything else is predicated on this first notion being sound.

Thanks ...

I cannot separate.

For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Rom. 8:38&39  KJV)

If this is true, then I cannot separate myself from God's love:  nothing I think, do, believe, or somehow pick up along the way to help me stumble (including my belief, or disbelief in UR).

I cannot cease to exist.

If I cease to exist, then I have been separated from the love of God, because there is no 'I' to love.
Therefore I will not cease to exist.

I furthermore must exist as long as God does.

This is the rough patch.  So, here goes ... because I cannot be separated from God's love and because God is love (1 John 4:8 and 1 John 4:16), I cannot be separated from God.  Ipso facto I must also be eternal.

[anna274]

Just a word of caution.  "none will be lost" is not a philosophical principle but a PROMISE...

I learned many years ago that discussing any Biblical principle from a philosophical/logical  POV bears very little fruit.  I was a member of an interdenominational charismatic prayer group... the group had quite a few Catholics in it... whenever a discussion of "Mary, Mother of God" came up, the Catholics very quickly "showed" the rest of us that in fact she was and "proved" it by stating their famous syllogism

Mary is the mother of Jesus
Jesus is God
ergo Mary is the mother of God

Of course, the syllogism didn't change our minds... but, I learned a new, a better way to address this issue... since they were Bible-reading Catholics, I directed them to the verses wherein Jesus tells us who is his mother... does the will of God; hears and does the Word of God... then I note especially Luke 1:26-38 And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word...

God's blessings on all your efforts to share the true good news... that ALL will be saved.

[sheila]

hey VB......the laast one.....the word was with God from the beginning....you have been with me from the beginning

  [when God said 'let us make man in our image"  so we in fact exist because the 'word of God spoke us into existence]

   that we be made in His image. So from the beginning we were with God as His word.... that 'word' was slain before

the foundations of the earth were laid..........How was 'the Word of God come in flesh",slain before the foundations of the earth

were laid? because 'flesh and blood can not please God" BY MY SPIRIT...flesh[foundations of the earth] is weak...

but the spirit is willing...but the 'earth/flesh helps the woman" and opens it mouth and swaallows up the dragon floods

     'cursed is the earth for yoour sake Adam"..the warring in heaven from the enmity between the seeds comes down

to the earth...the manchild[man in image and likeness of God/make man in our image..} is snatched up to heavenly throne

      the dust returns unto the earth..but the seed of the woman returns unto God.

    I see this all as a great war strategy of God.......due to the enmity between the seed.

      the 'word of God' being slain before the foundation of the earth......to me exhibits the enmity present/adversary

against the will and 'word of God' in the heavens at that time...tha the seed of the woman be bruised in the heel of the serpent

but crush the serpents head....is this very straategy of Father.

    In the scriptures  God declares the creature was subjected to vnity[slain/laid down in this earth] not of it's own will

but by He that subjected it..in the glorious hope  that the creature be set free into the Glorious freedom of the sons of God

  free from accusation persecution/influence of the adversaries seed.  However...the Christ seed lay His life down willingly

in order to take it up again.  Which goes to show if it was not our will to come down to this earth to lay down our lives

even though it was the will of the Father for us[creature]..the dragon influence was already present frm the beginning

  as the 'word of God' slain.before the foundations of the earth were laid.

       so this whole good/evil exercize is for the chstizing of His sons..and correction..that they not be condemned with the wicked

     and is in fact a war strategy designed to set them free from persecution,accusation and influence of the adversary.

   the promise...'make man in our image and likeness and let him have dominion"...the lie....eat frm this tree and ye shall be like

God[a leading into rebellion against the 'wrd of God come in flesh/slaying of the Lamb] good/evil mix is not God's image


   i hope my post didn't 'mug it up" Vb..if it helpful...great! if it is not..just please ignore.............I apoligize befre hand if

  you don't see it fitting in with what you are endeavouring or with logic.  :HeartThrob:

[VineBranch]

Just a word of caution.  "none will be lost" is not a philosophical principle but a PROMISE...

Thanks Anna:

Without trying to make it philosophical (in the Greek, not the Roman sense), can you spot a hole in the steps?

[VineBranch]

  i hope my post didn't 'mug it up" Vb..if it helpful...great! if it is not..just please ignore.............I apoligize befre hand if

  you don't see it fitting in with what you are endeavouring or with logic.  :HeartThrob:

Not at all, I'm just trying to make sure we don't take great leaps.

I was a bit confused about something you wrote however.  You said

So from the beginning we were with God as His word.... that 'word' was slain before

the foundations of the earth were laid

It seems to me that would refer to Christ.  Could you show that was us, as His word?  It sounds really intriguing.

[anna274]

Just a word of caution.  "none will be lost" is not a philosophical principle but a PROMISE...

Thanks Anna:

Without trying to make it philosophical (in the Greek, not the Roman sense), can you spot a hole in the steps?

VB, I have read enough of your posts to know that you have a very tender heart for the things of the Lord and I also see in your posts a great respect/love for the Scriptures.  This new topic of yours convinces me that you are zealous for the things of the Lord and that you have a great desire to share the fact that none will be lost because of God's great love.   I see this as a holy endeavor... a concern arose in my mind and heart the second I read the word "logic"...  VB, it's quite difficult to not be philosophical when "logic" is the very thesis of the article. It seems, I spotted  a "hole" before I even started reading the steps. 

what's logical about a loving Father sending His only begotten Son to die for us sinners???

How about changing the title to something like   So great a love surrounding...???

[VineBranch]

VB, I have read enough of your posts to know that you have a very tender heart for the things of the Lord and I also see in your posts a great respect/love for the Scriptures.  This new topic of yours convinces me that you are zealous for the things of the Lord and that you have a great desire to share the fact that none will be lost because of God's great love.   I see this as a holy endeavor... a concern arose in my mind and heart the second I read the word "logic"...  VB, it's quite difficult to not be philosophical when "logic" is the very thesis of the article. It seems, I spotted  a "hole" before I even started reading the steps. 

what's logical about a loving Father sending His only begotten Son to die for us sinners???

How about changing the title to something like   So great a love surrounding...???

Thanks Anna, that means a lot.  I agree whole heartedly, logic should not be applied to spiritual actions, or even be used to try to understand anything to do with faith.  You are absolutely right!!!

What I'm trying to see though, is if the thoughts flow organically and self-evidently from one point to the next.  I'm not trying to impose formal logic on anything to do with God.  Perhaps it would be better to say I use the word logic (logos: word) in the common sense:  the way it would be used in a conversation.  The Dutch say lochish as a way of saying that the second thing you say follows so closely from the first thing that only someone devoid of common sense wouldn't agree:  you might call it a corollary.  The French use the word logigue in the same way.  They are saying, "yes that makes sense, I see the connection:  it flows."

When I say to a coworker, or a friend, "yah, I see your logic", I'm saying that I understand how s/he got from one point to the next and the connection is valid.

I'm sorry if I confused you, that was not my intent.

[Tom]

Hey Guys:

I'm working on a fist step to show that none of us will be lost.  The first hurdle for me is to try to understand that notion from scripture.  I was wondering if you might take a look at the logic so far and see if you can find a hole.  Everything else is predicated on this first notion being sound.

Thanks ...

I cannot separate.

For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Rom. 8:38&39  KJV)

If this is true, then I cannot separate myself from God's love:  nothing I think, do, believe, or somehow pick up along the way to help me stumble (including my belief, or disbelief in UR).

I cannot cease to exist.

If I cease to exist, then I have been separated from the love of God, because there is no 'I' to love.
Therefore I will not cease to exist.

I furthermore must exist as long as God does.

This is the rough patch.  So, here goes ... because I cannot be separated from God's love and because God is love (1 John 4:8 and 1 John 4:16), I cannot be separated from God.  Ipso facto I must also be eternal.

I agree with everything except the thing about being "eternal" because I believe only God is eternal, always was and always will be. Everything else came out of God. So it had a beginning. It's hard for our finite minds to comprehend infinite time, but we really don't have to. All will be immortalized at the consummation of the eons. There will be no more death. So we will live forever, but that doesn't make us eternal. The Greek "aionion" mistranslated "eternal" is the adjective of "aion," literally translated "eon," a period of time. So it can't mean "eternal" because it describes a period of time. Scripture doesn't speak of eternal life unless you have a corrupt translation because scripture is only concerned with the eons.

http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html

[VineBranch]

I agree with everything except the thing about being "eternal" because I believe only God is eternal, always was and always will be. Everything else came out of God. So it had a beginning. It's hard for our finite minds to comprehend infinite time, but we really don't have to. All will be immortalized at the consummation of the eons. There will be no more death. So we will live forever, but that doesn't make us eternal. The Greek "aionion" mistranslated "eternal" is the adjective of "aion," literally translated "eon," a period of time. So it can't mean "eternal" because it describes a period of time. Scripture doesn't speak of eternal life unless you have a corrupt translation because scripture is only concerned with the eons.

"I believe only God is eternal, always was and always will be. Everything else came out of God."  Fair point.  Thanks.

I sense you and I have different definitions of 'eternal' :  maybe only different in usage, but different nonetheless.  I don't think eternity is simply a surfeit of time.  The notion of Aionion Time I think is correct when dealing with time, but, to me eternity is something different.  As you have said it is hard to comprehend infinite time.  I don't think that is what eternity is however.

When I read about God, and His relationship to time it seems to me that He is outside time.  He doesn't appear to be simply the guardian of time, or the gatekeeper of time.  It seems He abides in time, and yet He is Timeless.  I don't think Timeless should be thought of just all the time in the universe, I think Timelessness is a state without time.  I seems to me that time is a property of matter, and that matter was created.  Eternity is a place without time.  That is what I mean be eternal.  I will be with my father in the 'place'(?) which has not time, or where time is irrelevant:  not simply something we have in abundance.  This places eternity outside the realm of Aionion Dialogue because it has no reference to time.

[Tom]

I agree with everything except the thing about being "eternal" because I believe only God is eternal, always was and always will be. Everything else came out of God. So it had a beginning. It's hard for our finite minds to comprehend infinite time, but we really don't have to. All will be immortalized at the consummation of the eons. There will be no more death. So we will live forever, but that doesn't make us eternal. The Greek "aionion" mistranslated "eternal" is the adjective of "aion," literally translated "eon," a period of time. So it can't mean "eternal" because it describes a period of time. Scripture doesn't speak of eternal life unless you have a corrupt translation because scripture is only concerned with the eons.

"I believe only God is eternal, always was and always will be. Everything else came out of God."  Fair point.  Thanks.

I sense you and I have different definitions of 'eternal' :  maybe only different in usage, but different nonetheless.  I don't think eternity is simply a surfeit of time.  The notion of Aionion Time I think is correct when dealing with time, but, to me eternity is something different.  As you have said it is hard to comprehend infinite time.  I don't think that is what eternity is however.

When I read about God, and His relationship to time it seems to me that He is outside time.  He doesn't appear to be simply the guardian of time, or the gatekeeper of time.  It seems He abides in time, and yet He is Timeless.  I don't think Timeless should be thought of just all the time in the universe, I think Timelessness is a state without time.  I seems to me that time is a property of matter, and that matter was created.  Eternity is a place without time.  That is what I mean be eternal.  I will be with my father in the 'place'(?) which has not time, or where time is irrelevant:  not simply something we have in abundance.  This places eternity outside the realm of Aionion Dialogue because it has no reference to time.

I agree that God "is outside time" and space in the sense that he created the dimensions of time and space, but I also think God is "in" time and space in a sense.

Merriam-Webster's Online Dictionary says the definition of eternity is infinite time.

God created the eons which consist of eonian time. I believe God exists outside the eons, before and after, and also within the eons.

http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html

I believe it is the spirit of God inside the tiniest particles known to science that energizes them and holds them all together even though God is outside them in the sense that he created them.

I believe God always has been, always will be, and is everywhere all the time, inside and outside, before, during, and after eonian time, and that all comes out of God; all is being operated according to God's will; and all returns into God. 

"out of Him and through Him and into Him is all" (Romans 11:36)

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[anna274]

VB

logic by any other name is still logic

I cannot separate
I cannot cease to exist
I furthermore must exist as long as God does  

Ipso facto** I must also be eternal.


**ipso facto - Latin (Roman) "by the fact itself"

[VineBranch]

VB

logic by any other name is still logic

I cannot separate
I cannot cease to exist
I furthermore must exist as long as God does  

Ipso facto** I must also be eternal.


**ipso facto - Latin (Roman) "by the fact itself"

It's not a syllogism anna. the post was never structured as such. They are three statements intended to support a central idea.  There is no formal logic, only plain usage.

[VineBranch]

I agree that God "is outside time" and space in the sense that he created the dimensions of time and space, but I also think God is "in" time and space in a sense.

Nice observation.  But I don't think it follows that just because God is in time and space He is temporal.  God is Spirit (John 4:24).  Are you saying then that there is nothing but the ages?  That's intriguing.

[anna274]

VB... I apologize... I didn't mean to turn this thread into a word study... blessings on all your endeavors.

[VineBranch]

VB... I apologize... I didn't mean to turn this thread into a word study... blessings on all your endeavors.

No need to apologize anna.  I like you take on things.
For me, it's all about the words, unless it's about the love.  Those are the only two things I have with-which to communicate.

[sheila]

sorry so long in replying,VB  couldn't get on line..some kind of computor problem.   My logic goes like this.....yes,it does

refer to Christ...in the beginning was the 'word' and the 'word' was with God.   I am the vine and ye are the branches.......

     'let us make man in our image'....I see all mankind already conceived in the mind of God..before the foundations of

  the world [in Christ]   the Lamb slain before the founding of the world. [and by this,I mean all mankind in the image and likeness

  of the son of God/pattern son.   I see Him as also named 'the firstborn from the dead' as  I ws alive,I died..and now I live forever

    as 'the Lamb that was slain before the founding of the world"  Rev 5   the scroll and the Lamb.....v6  then I saw

a Laamb,looking as if it had been slain,standing in the center of the throne....


    it is just this picture in my head.......God's mind and will..expressing itself in 'word'  and that word/utterance..being

  God's 'breath/spirit" going forth from Him and accomplishing/doing/birthing into existence..[manifesting] all creation

according to His will.   Through looking at it this way...I also see the 'slaying' of the 'word of God/Lamb' .as any

adversarial purpose against His will.  the garden..the serpents utterance as a 'slaying' of the utterance/will of God.

    Do I bring tobirth and not give deliverance?   I see all men in Christ's image as conceived/birthed of God...and

  the deliverance..likened to the spirit ging forth[utterance of His breath] to accomplish His will[my word will not

return void..without accomplishing whaat I sent it forth for]

      this is just how some of these things have 'settled' in my mind...that I can grasp them somewht.........His  High things

are hard to 'wrap' my mind around...I think...and it is just through the 'above' paragraph...that I think I

  have an 'inkling' about it.

[VineBranch]

Anna, just to provide a living case in point.  I was reading a really cool thread this morning and here was the reply given to a post.

The post can be found at:  Tentmaker Forum »Apologetics - Universal Reconciliation »Apologetic Support.

The specific thread is:  What Did Christ Save Us From? Started by jinc1910

Reply # 12 by:  jinc1910

It does yes. I can certainly see he logic behind it. I don't agree with it, but I can understand it!

This is how I am using the word 'logic' here.

Hope this helps clarify things.

[anna274]

Anna, just to provide a living case in point.  I was reading a really cool thread this morning and here was the reply given to a post.

The post can be found at:  Tentmaker Forum »Apologetics - Universal Reconciliation »Apologetic Support.

The specific thread is:  What Did Christ Save Us From? Started by jinc1910

Reply # 12 by:  jinc1910

It does yes. I can certainly see he logic behind it. I don't agree with it, but I can understand it!

This is how I am using the word 'logic' here.

Hope this helps clarify things.

Hi VB:

Just read this as a guest and checked  and saw that my account has not yet been "approved" :)  for deletion...   VB, again thanks for taking the time to help me understand your usage of the  word "logic"  and I do really understand and accept that usage.  The problem is with me more than with how you use the word  "logic"...I'm just ultra sensitive to the word "logic" as I have encountered many, many people  who try to convince me of Scriptural truth through philosophical principles.   

[VineBranch]

sorry so long in replying,VB  couldn't get on line..some kind of computor problem.   My logic goes like this.....yes,it does

refer to Christ...in the beginning was the 'word' and the 'word' was with God.   I am the vine and ye are the branches.......

     'let us make man in our image'....I see all mankind already conceived in the mind of God..before the foundations of

  the world [in Christ]   the Lamb slain before the founding of the world. [and by this,I mean all mankind in the image and likeness

  of the son of God/pattern son.   I see Him as also named 'the firstborn from the dead' as  I ws alive,I died..and now I live forever

    as 'the Lamb that was slain before the founding of the world"

So, we are all slain lambs?  All mankind is the Lamb slain before the founding of the world?  You live forever as the Lamb that was slain before the founding of the world?  Did I get it right?

Thanks for clarifying that. I thought it meant only Christ.  I've provided some passages to show from where I got that idea.


The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. (John 1:29)

And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God! (John 1:36)
   
The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth: (Acts 8:32)


Could you elaborate on my role as a slain lamb.  I'm not sure how I function as such.

[VineBranch]

Hi VB:

Just read this as a guest and checked  and saw that my account has not yet been "approved" :)  for deletion...   VB, again thanks for taking the time to help me understand your usage of the  word "logic"  and I do really understand and accept that usage.  The problem is with me more than with how you use the word  "logic"...I'm just ultra sensitive to the word "logic" as I have encountered many, many people  who try to convince me of Scriptural truth through philosophical principles.   

Oh Anna, I am so sorry.

It was boorish of me to continue.  As far as I'm concerned then this thread is over.  If my words, or my attempt to establish a point causes but one person grief then it is not worth it.  I have caused you pain.  I should have let it go, but I didn't.  For that I am truly sorry.  I sense a lovely spirit in you and I had a hand in giving it grief.   I have no excuse and beg your forgiveness.

[sheila]

whatever ye have done unto the least of these my brothers[Adam/kinsman redeemer] ye have done unto me.....

   men as sheep.....

   if He is in the image of a Lamb..and we are raised up in His image..as a pattern son..than we shall be just like Him

     Feed my little sheep.  Romans 8;36  As it is written; for your ske we face death all day long; we are considered

as sheep to be slaughtered.  John 21;15 feed my lambs. Luke 10;3 as lamb's in among wolves

   Isaaih 40;11  He tends His flock like a shepherd; He gathers the lambs in his arms,and carries them close

to his heart

1Peter 1;19  but with the precious blood of Christ a lamb without blemish or defect

Ephesians 5;27  and to present her t himself as a aradiant church,,without stain or wrinkle,but HOLY AND BLAMELESS

   the Lamb's marriage..is the Lmb's wife a lamb.....? if the spirit of Christ dwells in you and you aare in the Lamb's

book of life..then you are a lamb,also.  when you suffer fr doing good[only God is good/so God's will]..you are as a lamb

[Tom]

I agree that God "is outside time" and space in the sense that he created the dimensions of time and space, but I also think God is "in" time and space in a sense.

Nice observation.  But I don't think it follows that just because God is in time and space He is temporal.  God is Spirit (John 4:24).  Are you saying then that there is nothing but the ages?  That's intriguing.

I don't know why you say God is "temporal." I think only God is "eternal." I don't know why you say "nothing but the ages." Everything came into being through the word of God, right? And just because there's a consummation of the eons doesn't mean that's all there is. Scripture is kind of mysterious about what happens after the consummation of the eons, but obviously something's happening because all of mankind will have been saved from death and all on earth and in the heavens will be reconciled to God. I think the eons are just a time period during which this drama called life is played out. Who knows what happened before the eons? I think there's some guessing about what's up after the eons too, but I don't think God will reconcile and save everybody just to say that's all there is. I think we will be enjoying immortality in the light of God's love.

[Tom]

Anna, just to provide a living case in point.  I was reading a really cool thread this morning and here was the reply given to a post.

The post can be found at:  Tentmaker Forum »Apologetics - Universal Reconciliation »Apologetic Support.

The specific thread is:  What Did Christ Save Us From? Started by jinc1910

Reply # 12 by:  jinc1910

It does yes. I can certainly see he logic behind it. I don't agree with it, but I can understand it!

This is how I am using the word 'logic' here.

Hope this helps clarify things.

Hi VB:

Just read this as a guest and checked  and saw that my account has not yet been "approved" :)  for deletion...   VB, again thanks for taking the time to help me understand your usage of the  word "logic"  and I do really understand and accept that usage.  The problem is with me more than with how you use the word  "logic"...I'm just ultra sensitive to the word "logic" as I have encountered many, many people  who try to convince me of Scriptural truth through philosophical principles.   

I'm sorry to see you go, Anna. I don't know why you're going, but that's your bizz. God bless you, sister.

[anna274]

Anna, just to provide a living case in point.  I was reading a really cool thread this morning and here was the reply given to a post.

The post can be found at:  Tentmaker Forum »Apologetics - Universal Reconciliation »Apologetic Support.

The specific thread is:  What Did Christ Save Us From? Started by jinc1910

Reply # 12 by:  jinc1910

It does yes. I can certainly see he logic behind it. I don't agree with it, but I can understand it!

This is how I am using the word 'logic' here.

Hope this helps clarify things.

Hi VB:

Just read this as a guest and checked  and saw that my account has not yet been "approved" :)  for deletion...   VB, again thanks for taking the time to help me understand your usage of the  word "logic"  and I do really understand and accept that usage.  The problem is with me more than with how you use the word  "logic"...I'm just ultra sensitive to the word "logic" as I have encountered many, many people  who try to convince me of Scriptural truth through philosophical principles.   

I'm sorry to see you go, Anna. I don't know why you're going, but that's your bizz. God bless you, sister.

Tom, I'm taking a kind of leave of absence in order to devote more time to my study of Revelation as being a "recap of the first four books of the NT" -- TMForum's Mods have been very gracious in allowing me to come and go, come and go...   I've reactivated my account just for today ... but I am slowly getting my study notes, books, etc. organized and hopefully by the end of today, I will be ready for some serious study... and hopefully by the end of September, I will have been show some new things about the book of Revelation.  Blessings to you, too.  anna