Is Revelations 21-22 the eternal state?

[Graph1159]

Hi everyone,
I often see passages from Revelations 21-22 used to support UR (all things made new, all tears wiped away, no more death). However, the Concordant Publishing writers claim that Revelations 21-22 are a finite eon that takes place prior to the Consummation when death is abolished and all come alive in Christ. They cite the ruling of the saints on the New Earth (in contrast with 1 Corinthians 15:25-28), the reference to the second death in Rev. 21, and the need for the Tree of Life to sustain health (implying that death is still existent albeit in remission) as evidence that the conditions of Rev. 21-22 do not describe the eternal state. Furthermore, if we claim that the life on the New Earth is eternal but the torment in the Lake of Fire is not, it kind of looks like we have a double standard with the use of the phrase "eons of the eons."

What is your view on this?
Samuel

[Lazarus Short]

I see the time you speak of as a final transition to eternity.  The very concept of "a time" works against eternity. 

[ded2daworld]

Depends on the definition of eternal. God alone is eternal and immortal. That which has come into being(creation) can at the will of the creator cease to exist and are therefore not eternal. That's why we (me and some others)prefer aeonion (age enduring) life.

[micah7:9]

 :thumbsup:

[lastpost]

In my opinion, when the Aeon of the aeons ["all through the generations of the aeon of aeons" => τὰς γενεὰς τοῦ αἰῶνος τῶν αἰώνων Eph. 3:21] is over, it will be because the Grand Consummation has occurred.

To those who pass into that great Aeon, identified with Christ, it will mean an Aeon of enhanced and superabundant life; a life which will place the participators of it beyond the reach of Aeonial pruning or Aeonial 'death'. That is what our Lord meant when He said: 'If a man keep My word, he shall not see death all through the Aeon' (John 8:51).

The Bible says that man was made in the image of God. God is eternal. Once the Grand Consummation has occurred man lives eternally with God.

The children of God are just that, His children made in His image - and He is Spirit. He breathed Spirit into His children although they carry that spirit in fleshly bodies.

God is truly Love and not some other strange being and He makes perfect plans and His plans mean that His children will be perfect. God's children will live eternally because God loves them. First He is the Ruler to a debased and very wicked people. Then He is the loving Saviour. Then He is the Holy Spirit working for Christ's "purpose of the aeons" (Eph. 3:11). God wants His children to have eternal life in perfection and His plan cannot be thwarted.

Choose which God you want to love, the tyrant or the Lover of souls!

Glory to the God who is Love.

[eaglesway]

Beautiful post :o)- sure hope it is not your 'Last" lol

[marie glen]

What is your view on this?
Samuel

hi! :hiya:
    It's my opinion no "living" 'souls' are cast into the LOF !  :gthumbsup:  :Peace2:
In rev, end of chapter 20, early on in the scenario, when the "false prophet" and the world "beast" are thrown "alive" into the LOF, they are not living entities! And there is no time (or aion) reference.

The false prophet/teacher/teaching turned Christendom (Western Civilization on its ear!) he began as a man.. this is that 'philosophy' which says man is the higher power/i.e, thus God! and this teacher/teaching does prophecy.. (Evolution man's adult fairy tale prophecies man should once again "look to the stars", as it begins to teach/'prophecy' that mankind was seeded to the erth by et's not the et's we know :laughing7: )

The "big" beast of rev 13:1-10, is a world entity,governing,body,beast as opposed to verses 11-18,an office of an individual.

The beast and the false prophet are thrown "alive" (still operating) into the LOF.. no trial.. no defense.. no judging.. just into LOF, and there is no mention of time, or aion, or even eternal..

It's my belief by time the end of Judgment 'Day' (the judgment of all things, all history, etc, a veRy loong day indeed) when is heard "those not believing will go to the LOF" who after all that, and don't forget they experienced being resurrected from their grave.. who's not going to believe/be in Jesus??

And it's only after all this, that "all things are made new" that there's "a new heavens and a new earth" -  "wherein rightewousness is to dwell" and the New Jerusalem, the Throne of God and God Himself come to earth to "tabernacle with man" (abide, dwell with man) [It seems logical, to me, He will bring other planets to life, or the earth will be vastly bigger.. new heavens and also new earth]

[Scrondublius]

The book of Revelation is not in order.  Chapter 21 and 22 are describing the 1,000 year period, not the time after that.  This is the biggest clue:
Revelation 22:15
For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
How can these people be outside the city?  If this period is after the 1,000 year period they will have gone thru final judgment and be in the lake of fire.  Not hanging around outside the city.

The 2 volume R. H. Charles commentary on the book of Revelation suggests that John wrote these writings and died before he could compile them and an underling put it to together, thus some parts out of order.

[WhiteWings]

Hi everyone,
I often see passages from Revelations 21-22 used to support UR (all things made new, all tears wiped away, no more death). However, the Concordant Publishing writers claim that Revelations 21-22 are a finite eon that takes place prior to the Consummation when death is abolished and all come alive in Christ. They cite the ruling of the saints on the New Earth (in contrast with 1 Corinthians 15:25-28), the reference to the second death in Rev. 21, and the need for the Tree of Life to sustain health (implying that death is still existent albeit in remission) as evidence that the conditions of Rev. 21-22 do not describe the eternal state. Furthermore, if we claim that the life on the New Earth is eternal but the torment in the Lake of Fire is not, it kind of looks like we have a double standard with the use of the phrase "eons of the eons."

What is your view on this?
Samuel

I think what called eternal life isn't eternal at all.
It describes 2 parallel periods.
Part of humanity has a good time. Some even rule with Christ (saints). The other part has the bad stuff. Terrors of Revelation. Lake of Fire etc.
Both periods end. Real eternal life starts after that when God becomes all in all.

[Lazarus Short]

Real eternal life starts after that when God becomes all in all.

:iagree:

[eaglesway]

The book of Revelation is not in order.  Chapter 21 and 22 are describing the 1,000 year period, not the time after that.  This is the biggest clue:
Revelation 22:15
For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
How can these people be outside the city?  If this period is after the 1,000 year period they will have gone thru final judgment and be in the lake of fire.  Not hanging around outside the city.

The 2 volume R. H. Charles commentary on the book of Revelation suggests that John wrote these writings and died before he could compile them and an underling put it to together, thus some parts out of order.

For me Rev 22:15 is now. The holy ones of God are in(overcomers). They are drinking freely of the water of life(John 7). The rest are outside the walls. "I will be a wall of fire around Zion(Isaiah)". You have to pass through the fire to get in(His eyes are as flames of fire;Rev/all things are open to the eyes of Him with whom we hav to do;Heb4/fiery/the trying of your faith is more precious than gold tried in the fire;Petr). "Every man will be salted with fire and every sacrifice(yield your body as a living sacrifice;Rom 12) will be seasoned with salt.(Luke)

Those who are in now will BE IN then(the one who overcomes will not endure the hour of trial that is coming upon the whole worldRev.) That is why we are to WATCH, for no one knows the hour or the day(death), but it comes like a thief in the night. We are not children of the nite that it should take us like a thief- (Thess)we are children of the day if we walk in the light(abide in Christ-I am the true vine, He that does not abide in me will be withered as a branch, cut off, and gathered for the fireJohn13). Awake O sleeper and arise from the dead and the light of Christ will shine upon you.

He that believes in me has passed from death unto life. He that believes in me, tho he dies, yet shall he live(John). He that does not believe in me has been judged already. if any man builds wood, hay and stubble, it will be revealed with fire, for the Day will reveal it. He will lose his reward(He that overcomes will inherit all things Rev) but his soul will be saved(1 Cor 3).

[eaglesway]

In other words, what you are now determines what you face then, what you experience when you awaken in the presence of God.

[micah7:9]

Alas the classroom and chastisement, we are being born of the Spirit, born from above, we are growing and hopefully learning. We are not saved, we are being saved and putting aside that knowledge and saying we are "saved" by grace. is an unneeded burden on our Walk. Resting in the knowledge we are being made and formed into His image gives me peace. "..... what you experience when you awaken in the presence of God." That's a key isn't it? WHEN WE AWAKEN!

[eaglesway]

Saying that I am saved by grace puts no burben on my walk....in fact, it relieves the burden for me :o)

[micah7:9]

Ok :o) :dsunny:

[JulieTang84]

Many mistakenly believe that Revelations complete the Word of God, but they are thankfully mistaken. :HeartThrob:

Taken from Meketa's blog   :HeartThrob:

Darby Translation:
Col 1:25 of which I became minister, according to the dispensation of God which [is] given me towards you to complete the word of God,

Yes, Paul was commissioned to complete the Word of God. Not John.

Heresy? Hardly, because we have the Scriptures that agree.

"In the book of Revelation we do not have the final plan of God. Paul, in 1 Cor. 15:22-28 takes us much further into the future than does the book of Revelation. To illustrate this more clearly, study the following: 1 Cor. 15:22-28 as compared with the new heaven and new earth of Revelation 20, 21 & 23

In 1 Cor. 15:22-28, we have:
* No more rule
* No more authority
* No more power
* No more enemies
* No more reigning
* All subjected
* No more death, death destroyed.
* All made alive, immortal

In Revelation 20, 21 & 22, we have:
* Still rule (20:6; 22:5)
* Son still reigns (22:1-5; 11:5)
* Authority (21:24,25)
* Power (21:24,25; 22:2)
* Kings (21:24-26)
* Saints reign (22:5)
* Second death still exists (21:5)
* The nations still mortal (22:2)

Consequently, Col. 1:16-20:
* All in heaven and earth created in Him (verse 16)
* All for Him (verse 16)
* All estranged are reconciled (verse 20)

So in retrospect, we have a witness to the correct order of the books of Revelation.

Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

[Tom]

Many mistakenly believe that Revelations complete the Word of God, but they are thankfully mistaken. :HeartThrob:

Taken from Meketa's blog   :HeartThrob:

Darby Translation:
Col 1:25 of which I became minister, according to the dispensation of God which [is] given me towards you to complete the word of God,

Yes, Paul was commissioned to complete the Word of God. Not John.

Heresy? Hardly, because we have the Scriptures that agree.

"In the book of Revelation we do not have the final plan of God. Paul, in 1 Cor. 15:22-28 takes us much further into the future than does the book of Revelation. To illustrate this more clearly, study the following: 1 Cor. 15:22-28 as compared with the new heaven and new earth of Revelation 20, 21 & 23

In 1 Cor. 15:22-28, we have:
* No more rule
* No more authority
* No more power
* No more enemies
* No more reigning
* All subjected
* No more death, death destroyed.
* All made alive, immortal

In Revelation 20, 21 & 22, we have:
* Still rule (20:6; 22:5)
* Son still reigns (22:1-5; 11:5)
* Authority (21:24,25)
* Power (21:24,25; 22:2)
* Kings (21:24-26)
* Saints reign (22:5)
* Second death still exists (21:5)
* The nations still mortal (22:2)

Consequently, Col. 1:16-20:
* All in heaven and earth created in Him (verse 16)
* All for Him (verse 16)
* All estranged are reconciled (verse 20)

So in retrospect, we have a witness to the correct order of the books of Revelation.

Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

I agree that it's a mistake to think that "The Unveiling Of Jesus Christ [Revelation]" is the end of the story, and Paul's evangel actually completes the word of God. Revelation 21-22 is the eonian life that believers are promised, but unbelievers condemned to the second death will be vivified at the consummation of the eons. I prefer "immortality" to "eternal state" because I believe only God is eternal, without beginning or end, and the source of all including the word of God through which all else comes. I also believe the translation of "aionion" as "eternal" is inaccurate. It is the adjective of the Greek "aion" literally translated "eon" which is a period of time not endless time. The adjective of a period of time can't be endless time regardless of what some folks say. 

http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html

[micah7:9]

The Revelation of Jesus Christ is a happening that has been happening and is now happening, when one is given to hear. :dsunny:

[eaglesway]

Col 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

I think we hav to be careful about putting too much emphasis on one word in one verse and drawing conclusions by it. The gospel was a team effort expressed through various members of a body all under the headship of Jesus(Eph. 1)

IMO, Paul fulfilled the word of God in his own life and ministry as a steward of the gospel towards the churches he raised up. I personally don't think he completed the word of God over and above any one of the twelve foundation stones. Certainly the gospel of John and John's epistles and his Apocalypse rank equally with Paul's writings/revelation?

[Tom]

I understand your point. I was simply using the word "complete" from the Concordant Version. I think it's in the sense that Paul revealed the secrets from the risen Christ that weren't known yet involving the salvation of us, the nations, and our celestial destiny. 

"of which I became a dispenser, in accord with the administration of God, which is granted to me for you, to complete the word of God" (Colossians 1:25)

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[marie glen]

Hi everyone,
I often see passages from Revelations 21-22 used to support UR (all things made new, all tears wiped away, no more death). However, the Concordant Publishing writers claim that Revelations 21-22 are a finite eon that takes place prior to the Consummation when death is abolished and all come alive in Christ. They cite the ruling of the saints on the New Earth (in contrast with 1 Corinthians 15:25-28), the reference to the second death in Rev. 21, and the need for the Tree of Life to sustain health (implying that death is still existent albeit in remission) as evidence that the conditions of Rev. 21-22 do not describe the eternal state. Furthermore, if we claim that the life on the New Earth is eternal but the torment in the Lake of Fire is not, it kind of looks like we have a double standard with the use of the phrase "eons of the eons."

What is your view on this?
Samuel

hi! :smile: :hiya:
I can't help thinking that judgment (review), death and the grave being thrown into the LOF , all happens in Revelation chapter 20. With the words "all those not believing will go to the LOF/2nd death" near the end of the chapter, and "death and the grave cast into the LOF" is at the very end of that chapter, being the very last verse. And how Revelation chapters 21 and 22 follow all this.

...I find myself pondering the great size of the universe our Father has created, and can't see that throughout all the eons and ages, that He (once good from evil / life from death / true from untrue has been proven and deeply engraved upon all hearts and minds) would have to limit Himself to merely one tiny planet in the huge scheme of things.

peace and blessing, and all the best.. :dsunny: :smile:

[marie glen]

The Revelation of Jesus Christ is a happening that has been happening and is now happening, when one is given to hear. :dsunny:

True, very true! :iagree:

But :smile:, it's also true, surely? the simplicity of "Then I heard a mighty voice from the throne and I perceived its distinct words, saying, See! The abode of God is with men, and He will live (encamp, tent) among them; and they shall be His people, and God shall personally be with them and be their God ..I saw a new sky (heaven) and a new earth, for the former sky and the former earth had passed away (vanished), and there no longer existed any sea.. and I, John, saw the holy city -- new Jerusalem -- coming down from God out of the heaven" (rev 21:3,1,2)

- - coming after "babylon is fallen, fallen.. the great $ity which reigns over the kings of the earth" (rev 18:2;17:18)

In other words, or I guess what I'm saying is, it happens in my heart, and in every heart, but it also will happen upon planet earth - God's Great Truth Proving Drama.. surely? "The lion will eat straw like the ox, the bear will graze with the cow.." "each person shall abide under their own vine and fruit tree and no one will bother them.." will happen and occur in my heart and consciousness, but also collectively and literally in the new flesh.. I mean, why not? I don't buy the floaty dream state (alone) of the eons of the aionians.. yikes / :eek: (That was a gnostic teaching and theory, that matter was 'bad' and what one needed to be saved from, forgetting how Yahweh had said "behold it's all good!")
peace and blessing, and all the best.. :smile: :dsunny:

[JulieTang84]

Col 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

I think we hav to be careful about putting too much emphasis on one word in one verse and drawing conclusions by it. The gospel was a team effort expressed through various members of a body all under the headship of Jesus(Eph. 1)

IMO, Paul fulfilled the word of God in his own life and ministry as a steward of the gospel towards the churches he raised up. I personally don't think he completed the word of God over and above any one of the twelve foundation stones. Certainly the gospel of John and John's epistles and his Apocalypse rank equally with Paul's writings/revelation?

I could not agree with you any more than 100% Eagle    :HeartThrob:

There must be a witness to whatever a "word" claims.

However, in this case, there is a good witness in the completion of events.


Col 1:16-20   
For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

Now some may say: What of the Lake of Fire? and protest that it has yet to occur.


Father knows the End from the Beginning and what is yet to come here on Earth has ALWAYS been to Father.

Rev 1:8
"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."

[Tom]

It's my understanding, despite the fact that "The Unveiling Of Jesus Christ [Revelation]" is at the end of the bible, it is not the end of God's plan. It is Paul's evangel that speaks of the consummation of the eons. I believe there is a distinction between the Greek "apokatastaseos" (Acts 3:21) referring to the "restoration" of all and the Greek "apokatallaxai" (Colossians 1:20) referring to the reconciliation of all.

21 The times of restoration include the terrific judgments of the Unveiling, when, by means of seals, trumpets and bowls, the earth is restored to the sovereignty of Christ as Son of Mankind. It has no reference to individual destiny, but to redemption of the enslaved and the disinherited by their Kinsman Redeemer (Lev.25). (Concordant Commentary on the New Testament page 182)

20 Just as His glories in creation take us back to the very beginning, so the greater glories of reconciliation take us to the very consummation. The universal reconciliation cannot be fully accomplished until the close of the eonian times, when all sovereignty and authority and power and even death are rendered inoperative (1Cor.15:24-27) and when all mankind are saved (1Tim.4:10) and justified (Rom.5:18). This takes us far beyond the new earth portrayed at the end of the Revelation of Jesus Christ, for there He still reigns, many of mankind are still lost, and death is not yet abolished. (Concordant Commentary on the New Testament page 303)

"through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens" (Colossians 1:20)

"Yet now Christ has been roused from among the dead, the Firstfruit of those who are reposing. For since, in fact, through a man came death, through a Man, also, comes the resurrection of the dead. For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified. Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence; thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power. For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy is being abolished: death. For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him. Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all." (1 Corinthians 15:20-28)

http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html