What helped me become a universalist

[randylewiskemp]

I have been a Christian all my life.  But I've also explored other religions and philosophies in depth - like Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, and Native Americans spirit.  The biggest problem I wrestled with is Eternal hell, which is a big problem for both Christian and Islam.  I either had to join the annihilation or universalism camps.  They are the only two approaches that make sense and I settled on the last one. Here are some things that have helped me.

• Eastern Orthodox theology.  I have a friend who has been a lifelong member of the Greek Orthodox Church.  In Western theology, we think of heaven and hell as places.  In Eastern Orthodox theology, they think of it as a state.  Here's what was stated on an Eastern Orthodox Forum: "While we believe in the existance of heaven and hell, we do not look uopn them as physical places. The Holy Fathers teach us that
  *for those who love God, heaven is the eternal existence in His loving presence. God is their ultimate desire and, consequently, their reward as well. Since, for most of us, our love for God is far from perfect, His love for us and the continual prayer of the Church refines and purifies our love, making us ever more able to find all our joy in Him.
  *for those who hate God, hell is also eternal existence in His loving presence but, according to Saint Isaac of Syria, they "will be chastized with the scourge of love. How cruel and bitter this torment of love will be. The sorrow which takes hold of the heart which has sinned against love is more piercing than any other pain." For the evil, "eternity of hell" is not the deprivation of the  love of presence of God but rather the torment of external existence in the presence of a Love which is unwanted, rejected and despised."
• There is a female, who is supposed to be a Christian healer and stigmata bearer on occasions.  She has a website at TiffanySnow [dot] com.  She has written some books and had an NDE experience.  Here's what her husband Billy Clark says, who is an Old Catholic Church priest: "No, hellfire does not exist but hell does. Torture by fire does not exist as you can only guess how this does not apply since there is only a God of Love. There is only separation from Father, that is the true hell. Hell does exist, hellfire does not!" He also has this to say: "We are always encouraged to be in this place of love and choose to share with God in love."  So if the NDE experiences are true, this is what Tiffany learned. 
• The third comes from a book called Without Buddha I Could Not Be a Christian Paperback by Paul F. Knitter.  It's available on Amazon, but you can probably get it through your local, US public library.  He is a former Roman Catholic priest and a current professor of theology.  Much of what he struggled with is words and symbols.  He just thinks that words and symbols are just symbolic. This he struggles with in things like hell.  Buddhism can provide much insight into Christian theology, as this book illustrates.

Now I shared three things that helped my decision.  What has helped you?

[Tom]

I have been a Christian all my life.  But I've also explored other religions and philosophies in depth - like Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, and Native Americans spirit.  The biggest problem I wrestled with is Eternal hell, which is a big problem for both Christian and Islam.  I either had to join the annihilation or universalism camps.  They are the only two approaches that make sense and I settled on the last one. Here are some things that have helped me.

• Eastern Orthodox theology.  I have a friend who has been a lifelong member of the Greek Orthodox Church.  In Western theology, we think of heaven and hell as places.  In Eastern Orthodox theology, they think of it as a state.  Here's what was stated on an Eastern Orthodox Forum: "While we believe in the existance of heaven and hell, we do not look uopn them as physical places. The Holy Fathers teach us that
  *for those who love God, heaven is the eternal existence in His loving presence. God is their ultimate desire and, consequently, their reward as well. Since, for most of us, our love for God is far from perfect, His love for us and the continual prayer of the Church refines and purifies our love, making us ever more able to find all our joy in Him.
  *for those who hate God, hell is also eternal existence in His loving presence but, according to Saint Isaac of Syria, they "will be chastized with the scourge of love. How cruel and bitter this torment of love will be. The sorrow which takes hold of the heart which has sinned against love is more piercing than any other pain." For the evil, "eternity of hell" is not the deprivation of the  love of presence of God but rather the torment of external existence in the presence of a Love which is unwanted, rejected and despised."
• There is a female, who is supposed to be a Christian healer and stigmata bearer on occasions.  She has a website at TiffanySnow [dot] com.  She has written some books and had an NDE experience.  Here's what her husband Billy Clark says, who is an Old Catholic Church priest: "No, hellfire does not exist but hell does. Torture by fire does not exist as you can only guess how this does not apply since there is only a God of Love. There is only separation from Father, that is the true hell. Hell does exist, hellfire does not!" He also has this to say: "We are always encouraged to be in this place of love and choose to share with God in love."  So if the NDE experiences are true, this is what Tiffany learned. 
• The third comes from a book called Without Buddha I Could Not Be a Christian Paperback by Paul F. Knitter.  It's available on Amazon, but you can probably get it through your local, US public library.  He is a former Roman Catholic priest and a current professor of theology.  Much of what he struggled with is words and symbols.  He just thinks that words and symbols are just symbolic. This he struggles with in things like hell.  Buddhism can provide much insight into Christian theology, as this book illustrates.

Now I shared three things that helped my decision.  What has helped you?

Your problem with "eternal hell" is common and due to intentional mistranslation of scripture by the church to perpetuate its false doctrine for the purpose of controlling its followers through fear. The word "eternal" should be translated "eonian" because it is the adjective of "eon" from the Greek "aionion" the adjective of "aion," and "Gehenna" should not be "hell" as it is mistranslated twelve times because Christ was referring to the city dump of Jerusalem where corpses of condemned criminals were burned and will be again in the coming eon (Isaiah 66:23,24). The word "hell" is an Old English word translated in the King James from the Greek "hades" which literally means "unperceived" or "unseen" referring to the "unseen" state of dead souls. The word "heaven" from the Greek "ouranos" literally means "see-up." We know there are at least three layers of heaven because Paul "was snatched away to the third heaven" (2 Corinthians 12:2). I investigated the Eastern philosophies of Zen and Tao after I left the Roman church when I was a young man. I also had an OBE/NDE that was the classic experience of being in the light and knowing peace and love, but I was guided to scripture immediately after I was back in my body. It wasn't until years later that I discovered universal reconciliation seemingly by chance, but I now know it was by more guidance of holy spirit. When I first read about it, I didn't believe it until I read a lot more information trying to disprove it which eventually made a believer out of me. I also discovered the inaccuracies of the King James, switched to Young's Literal Translation, and then the Concordant Version which is what I study now. I believe that God's ultimate plan is not to torture the majority of humanity in fire forever or annihilate them. Some have been chosen to be believers, be saved from the coming indignation, and immortalized for eonian life while unbelievers will be dead during that time, but eventually those unbelievers condemned to the second death will also be immortalized at the consummation of the eons when God will be all in all (1 Corinthians 15:20-28). This is all made possible due to the true significance of Christ's dying on the cross which was to reconcile all those on earth and in heaven (Colossians 1:20). So it is through diligent study of the word of God that I have come to the conclusion that universal reconciliation is the true plan of God. I have to stress though that it is necessary to study an accurate translation to know the truth.

[Meketa]

I wrote this on HELL and posted it on my blog. The Scriptures are very clear about the LAKE of FIRE which is almost always mistaken for HELL.

I hope you find the truth as rewarding as I did . :dsunny:

WHAT EXACTLY IS HELL????

Well it was the Hell-fire doctrine that started my quest for truth. There is nothing in love, that could ever condone such a belief. Love by its very nature would seek to save, what the hell-doctrine seeks to destroy.

So what is Hell exactly?

Many believe that Hell is a hellish fiery pit where they believe our loving God will burn millions if not billions of His children in immeasurable pain forever. Could such a horrific belief have any Scriptural foundation? No, just plain and simple no.

Please take comfort in the following words of Jesus.

From the Darby bible: John 12:32. and I, if I be lifted up out of the earth, will draw all to me.
And now Paul.

I Tim. 4:9-10
"This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation. For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, Who IS THE SAVIOUR OF ALL MEN, specially of those that believe.

Yes, I totally trust in the living God who is the savior of all men, women and children specially those that believe and also that I recognize this as a faithful saying worthy of never being forgotten. Is this not the actions of a loving God, worthy of all love and nothing else from each of us?
Now many will totally disagree with this, saying that I am twisting the truth. Yet have I not quoted from the Scripture word for word. I have not even given you an opinion. They say this because they pick and they choose what they want to believe to please their itching ears.

2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.

This is not surprising because Jesus himself said that few will find the path to righteousness though many will claim that they have. Yet, Jesus has given each of us a great foundation.

1Cr 3:11. For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1Cr 3:12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw,
1Cr 3:13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person's work.
1Cr 3:14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward.
1Cr 3:15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

Many times people have told me that this could not possibly happen, yet Paul clearly states that though this person, loses everything, this person will be saved as if by fire.
What fire?

Hbr 12:29 For our God [is] a consuming fire.

Yes, God is the "Spiritual" fire that will burn for ever, for all eternity. Nothing or no one will ever extinguish Him. One can see that the fire of God is just like the supposed Hell fire. Does this mean that the fire will burn away man's sinful nature forever? Of course not, as Paul stated above: the fire will burn only while there are impurities to burn. Just like a fire burning in a forest, it can only burn while there is something to burn.

But what is the real purpose of this fire? Not what you might assume. Read on.

Mal 3:2 But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner's fire or a launderer's soap.

Yes, every impurity will be washed away, and Gods children ALL OF THEM NOT A SELECT FEW. will be as pure as white snow.

Ah, many will now wonder about the word "Punish" but did you know that Jesus never used the word in any of the Gospels. In fact the King James Version only has the word "punish" mentioned once in the Greek Scriptures (New Testament).

Act 4:21
So when they had further threatened them, they let them go, finding nothing how they might punish them, because of the people: for all men glorified God for that which was done.

Strong's Concordance gives a very interesting meaning to word:
Punish (G2849)
a) to lop or prune, as trees and wings
b) to curb, check, restrain
c) to chastise, correct, punishment
d) to cause to be punished

Do you find it surprising that "punishment" is only the 3rd rendering? Even then it falls behind, Chastise and Correct. Could it be possible that the word "punishment", should actually be "correction?" Fits perfectly with the all Consuming Fire of God, correcting each individual by burning up everything that is not based in LOVE.

Paul never used the word Punish. In fact did you catch what he really said earlier?

1Cr 3:13 their *** WORK *** will be shown for what it is......

It is "our" work that will shown for what it is, not "us!" We will be cleansed, corrected. Now this might not be pleasant, but it is not going to last forever and we will be purified because of it.

Jesus is the great shepherd and he spoke of this.

Luk 15:2 But the Pharisees and the teachers of the law muttered, "This man welcomes sinners and eats with them."
Luk 15:3 Then Jesus told them this parable:
Luk 15:4 "Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them. Doesn't he leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it?
Luk 15:5 And when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders
Luk 15:6 and goes home. Then he calls his friends and neighbors together and says, 'Rejoice with me; I have found my lost sheep.'

Jesus is the Great Shepherd, He will not cease searching until the last person is found and bought back into his fold.

But then, what of Revelation and all of the horrors mentioned there?

As already shown, Revelation might not mean what has been commonly believed. Would you believe that God's Word provides a clear path of events. There is life after Revelation, life for all.

Darby Translation:
Col 1:25 of which I became minister, according to the dispensation of God which [is] given me towards you to complete the word of God, Yes, Paul was commissioned to complete the Word of God. Not John.

Heresy? Hardly, because we have the Scriptures that agree.

"In the book of Revelation we do not have the final plan of God. Paul, in 1 Cor. 15:22-28 takes us much further into the future than does the book of Revelation. To illustrate this more clearly, study the following: 1 Cor. 15:22-28 as compared with the new heaven and new earth of Revelation 20, 21 & 23

In 1 Cor. 15:22-28, we have:
* No more rule
* No more authority
* No more power
* No more enemies
* No more reigning
* All subjected
* No more death, death destroyed.
* All made alive, immortal

In Revelation 20, 21 & 22, we have:
* Still rule (20:6; 22:5)
* Son still reigns (22:1-5; 11:5)
* Authority (21:24,25)
* Power (21:24,25; 22:2)
* Kings (21:24-26)
* Saints reign (22:5)
* Second death still exists (21:5)
* The nations still mortal (22:2)

Consequently, Col. 1:16-20:
* All in heaven and earth created in Him (verse 16)
* All for Him (verse 16)
* All estranged are reconciled (verse 20)

Romans 5:18-21 (Darby)
18 so then as it was by one offence towards all men to condemnation, so by one righteousness towards all men for justification of life. 19 For as indeed by the disobedience of the one man the many have been constituted sinners, so also by the obedience of the one the many will be constituted righteous. 20 But law came in, in order that the offence might abound; but where sin abounded grace has overabounded, 21 in order that, even as sin has reigned in the power of death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

We can find much comfort in the above Scripture. Did you notice that Paul speaks of the same many? If the word (the) was not used it would simply state 'many' however, it does not, it states everyone, 'the many.'

I hope you can find peace and comfort in all that I have presented here. I have not taken anything out of context. The concept of Hell that is preached in Churches across the world is simply a lie.

I will leave you with this. If God, having created man and allowed man to fall into the hands of Satan, then openly punishes many millions in a way too graphic for words. Is then God not committing acts more horrendous than Satan has ever committed? One simply will not find anywhere, acts performed by Satan that come anywhere near horrendous or quanative as many attribute to the future acts of God. Where is the Love? I ask this in all sincerity, where is the love?
As Jesus said before he died on the Cross: Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do. Amen

[jbertonbounds]

I was once one of the "wise and understanding" of Matthew 11:25-26, which says, "At that time Jesus declared, "I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children; yes, Father, for such was your gracious will." [ESV]  I used to be proud of my "wisdom" and I couldn't wait to share my opinions in Sunday school.  I not only wanted to show everyone how "wise" I was, but I thought of myself as a teacher of the dumb little lambs.  I'm sure I stunk up many a Sunday school class in those days. :footmouth: :winkgrin: :laughing7:

Meanwhile, I was tormented for years by a hell that does not exist.  I was in mental anguish over the thought of anyone going there, especially me.  Something just kept telling me, "No, it can't be true. It just can't be!"  There were also many other "little" fallacies that were embedded in the church doctrine that I was becoming aware of, and I was beginning to search for truth more and more.

I believe that when I finally humbled myself and became as a child in the sight of Yahweh then my human "wisdom" became garbage.  I began to realize just how little true Godly wisdom I had.  I began to ask Yahweh to teach me His wisdom and truth.  I also asked Him to bless me beyond my imagination.  I thought peace in my heart was impossible as long as hell loomed out there somewhere.  But then, before I realized what was going on, Yahweh started to grant my requests.  Yahweh started teaching me His wisdom, and His truth.  This "wise and understanding" man became humble and foolish before God.  Now I continue to ask Him to teach me and show me the things of his kingdom. :HeartThrob:

[JulieTang84]

Meketa  :HeartThrob:  I am so glad that you have joined us here at TM and that you have posted this. I love your blog!!!  :friendstu:


Love Julie

[JulieTang84]

I believe that when I finally humbled myself and became as a child in the sight of Yahweh then my human "wisdom" became garbage.  I began to realize just how little true Godly wisdom I had.  I began to ask Yahweh to teach me His wisdom and truth.  I also asked Him to bless me beyond my imagination.  I thought peace in my heart was impossible as long as hell loomed out there somewhere.  But then, before I realized what was going on, Yahweh started to grant my requests.  Yahweh started teaching me His wisdom, and His truth.  This "wise and understanding" man became humble and foolish before God.  Now I continue to ask Him to teach me and show me the things of his kingdom. :HeartThrob:

JB that was simply precious. As Father has revealed his peace to me, truths just came flooding in from all sides. Yet, were all my years spent searching for something I could never find, wasted? The key is that none of us here gave up looking, grasping at every peach of love truth that came our way. Was Father testing our resolve? I was he rewarding us for our perseverance?  :HeartThrob:


I don't know and neither do I care, for the love peace and the peace of love that Father and Christ provide is means more to me than anything I have ever known. The amazing part of it all, those I whom I loved previously, I love ever so much more now.


Anyone sitting on the fence? Ask yourselves where is the LOVE in Eternal Punishment.


LOVE Julie  :girlheart:

[jbertonbounds]

I believe that when I finally humbled myself and became as a child in the sight of Yahweh then my human "wisdom" became garbage.  I began to realize just how little true Godly wisdom I had.  I began to ask Yahweh to teach me His wisdom and truth.  I also asked Him to bless me beyond my imagination.  I thought peace in my heart was impossible as long as hell loomed out there somewhere.  But then, before I realized what was going on, Yahweh started to grant my requests.  Yahweh started teaching me His wisdom, and His truth.  This "wise and understanding" man became humble and foolish before God.  Now I continue to ask Him to teach me and show me the things of his kingdom. :HeartThrob:

JB that was simply precious. As Father has revealed his peace to me, truths just came flooding in from all sides. Yet, were all my years spent searching for something I could never find, wasted? The key is that none of us here gave up looking, grasping at every peach of love truth that came our way. Was Father testing our resolve? I was he rewarding us for our perseverance?  :HeartThrob:


I don't know and neither do I care, for the love peace and the peace of love that Father and Christ provide is means more to me than anything I have ever known. The amazing part of it all, those I whom I loved previously, I love ever so much more now.


Anyone sitting on the fence? Ask yourselves where is the LOVE in Eternal Punishment.


LOVE Julie  :girlheart:

AMEN!