Freewill is a myth and here's proof

[JulieTang84]

 :HeartThrob: It seems to me that this discussion has lost a little focus.



Is Father not so perfect that he HAD to have a contingency plan?


Lastpost said in part: God did not "want" Adam and Eve to eat of the apple.


So did Father have to change his plan? Thankfully no.  :dsunny:

Tts 1:2  In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

Mic 4:12  But they do not know the thoughts of the LORD; they do not understand his plan, that he has gathered them like sheaves to the threshing floor.

I think it is dangerous to speak for Father who has laid out a meticulous plan for all of humanity since before the beginning of time. To EVEN suggest that Adam and Eve could have chose NOT to eat is Nullifying Fathers plan.  :HeartThrob: Likewise, to suggest that Father did not "want," would indicate that Father "hoped they would not. Why would Father not want his plan to come to fulfillment or for that matter to even begin. Father after-all knows the beginning from the end.

Dajomaco  :HeartThrob:

You said: "True Love is such an easy path."

Now that my friend is without a doubt the most unscriptural phrase I have ever read.

Jesus had much to say on Love.

He told us the following:
Mat 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Can you today Love your enemies, even bless them? Can anyone? Jesus even told us to pray for those that use and persecute us. Do you have TRUE Love for those who daily do horrendous acts of cruelty to even the youngest of Fathers children. Do you Love such as these as MUCH as you love your most cherished ones? To love any of these even a tiny bit less is CONDITIONAL and not therefore perfect

I am not judging, but asking; because if you cannot or do not then why? After all you said true Love is such an EASY path.  :sigh:

Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

Mat 5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?

Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

We are told to be perfect just as God, our Father is perfect.

So are you Perfect?   :HeartThrob:

If as you said, True Love is such and EASY path, then PERFECTION must be easy.

I don't believe you really meant that.

Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

[lastpost]

If God made man in His own likeness and yet man was not God, what makes man an individual with the ability to choose to believe lie?

The danger is in anthropomorphising God and attributing to Him who cannot look upon iniquity the inability to create a Plan that allowed Him to create Perfection and still allow sin committed by the will of others.

Peace

[JulieTang84]

If God made man in His own likeness and yet man was not God, what makes man an individual with the ability to choose to believe lie?

The danger is in anthropomorphising God and attributing to Him who cannot look upon iniquity the inability to create a Plan that allowed Him to create Perfection and still allow sin committed by the will of others.

Peace

We have two choices here (note choice of what to believe)


1. That Father lives in Hope and changes daily his plan for the redemption of His children.
2. That Father is the Alpha and Omega, so far beyond anything simple thing such as time.


I am of the belief that the creation story is a metaphor and quite frankly as literal as a fairy-tail. I believe also that "we" Fathers Children have the Christ divinity deep within. That some may refute it, deny it or question it is irrelevant. I believe that we all pretend to know more than we do, that our world is physically real, but is actually an illusion. I believe that Anna has hit the mark with all her posts on LIGHT this morning. One day, everything will be seen clearly in LIGHT and NOTHING that we now hold onto so dearly will even exist.


Are we an experiment? Doubtful. Are we God's? Not yet. Are we Fathers "Play thing?" well truthfully, Father has fashioned us according to his will, hardened those he choses and blessed others. He does everything according to pleasure. He even states that we cannot direct our steps.


But does that mean we cannot chose to walk to the bathroom without Father giving us permission, I think not. Rather, we cannot direct our steps to the foot of Father and demand our money back for all the time that has been wasted spinning our wheels. So where does this leave us?


That my friend is the question as well as the answer.  :HeartThrob:


We are where we choose to be (where God wants us.) Yet I think it is you that said LastPost, that we all should grow into little children (or something like that) which is PERFECT. Because where we are Spiritually is no different than a baby beginning to crawl. The baby seeks not to understand it, just to explore and grow.


If we as Fathers Children would learn to trust and NOT build or lean on our understanding, then truthfully our inner spiritual light would really begin to shine.


Please know that this is just what I believe and I am NOT saying that I am right or any other is wrong.

[size=78%] Love Julie [/size] :dsunny:

[micah7:9]

If God made man in His own likeness and yet man was not God, what makes man an individual with the ability to choose to believe lie?

The danger is in anthropomorphising God and attributing to Him who cannot look upon iniquity the inability to create a Plan that allowed Him to create Perfection and still allow sin committed by the will of others.

Peace

I went to sleep last night thinking about your very thought. "...God made man in His own likeness..."
Just what did Gen 1:27  So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. Do?
What was it that was accomplished?
We know the living soul of chapter 2, tilled the ground, ate of the fruit, met his mate, became naked, gained a conscience, tried to hide, sent out of the garden and was really set to the plow.
But I find no evidence(imo) that that man, made in His own image did anything.
I believe, again imo, that the man...male and female...is still in the process of....and we, who have been found, are on the Potter's wheel NOW.
I see that man..male/female, prepared in the image[shade/phantom] and likeness[resemblance] for God is Spirit.
Joh 5:20  for the Father doth love the Son, and doth shew to him all things that He himself doth; and greater works than these He will shew him, that ye may wonder.
Now THAT many member Son[and daughters] will accomplish much when complete(perfect.) :HeartThrob: But it is only my opinon(I'm getting used to doing that!) :dsunny:

[micah7:9]

If God made man in His own likeness and yet man was not God, what makes man an individual with the ability to choose to believe lie?

The danger is in anthropomorphising God and attributing to Him who cannot look upon iniquity the inability to create a Plan that allowed Him to create Perfection and still allow sin committed by the will of others.

Peace

We have two choices here (note choice of what to believe)


1. That Father lives in Hope and changes daily his plan for the redemption of His children.
2. That Father is the Alpha and Omega, so far beyond anything simple thing such as time.


I am of the belief that the creation story is a metaphor and quite frankly as literal as a fairy-tail. I believe also that "we" Fathers Children have the Christ divinity deep within. That some may refute it, deny it or question it is irrelevant. I believe that we all pretend to know more than we do, that our world is physically real, but is actually an illusion. I believe that Anna has hit the mark with all her posts on LIGHT this morning. One day, everything will be seen clearly in LIGHT and NOTHING that we now hold onto so dearly will even exist.


Are we an experiment? Doubtful. Are we God's? Not yet. Are we Fathers "Play thing?" well truthfully, Father has fashioned us according to his will, hardened those he choses and blessed others. He does everything according to pleasure. He even states that we cannot direct our steps.


But does that mean we cannot chose to walk to the bathroom without Father giving us permission, I think not. Rather, we cannot direct our steps to the foot of Father and demand our money back for all the time that has been wasted spinning our wheels. So where does this leave us?


That my friend is the question as well as the answer.  :HeartThrob:


We are where we choose to be (where God wants us.) Yet I think it is you that said LastPost, that we all should grow into little children (or something like that) which is PERFECT. Because where we are Spiritually is no different than a baby beginning to crawl. The baby seeks not to understand it, just to explore and grow.


If we as Fathers Children would learn to trust and NOT build or lean on our understanding, then truthfully our inner spiritual light would really begin to shine.


Please know that this is just what I believe and I am NOT saying that I am right or any other is wrong.

[size=78%] Love Julie [/size] :dsunny:

First..."1. That Father lives in Hope and changes...."
Mal 3:6  For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Second, there is a great difference between free choice, or just choice and free will. Man makes hundreds, thousands of choices..freely..in ones life time, but at no time does man will, free or other wise anything. That is my belief and my opinion. :HeartThrob: :dsunny:

[JulieTang84]

I went to sleep last night thinking about your very thought. "...God made man in His own likeness..."
Just what did Gen 1:27  So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. Do?
What was it that was accomplished?
We know the living soul of chapter 2, tilled the ground, ate of the fruit, met his mate, became naked, gained a conscience, tried to hide, sent out of the garden and was really set to the plow.
But I find no evidence(imo) that that man, made in His own image did anything.
I believe, again imo, that the man...male and female...is still in the process of....and we, who have been found, are on the Potter's wheel NOW.
I see that man..male/female, prepared in the image[shade/phantom] and likeness[resemblance] for God is Spirit.
Joh 5:20  for the Father doth love the Son, and doth shew to him all things that He himself doth; and greater works than these He will shew him, that ye may wonder.
Now THAT many member Son[and daughters] will accomplish much when complete(perfect.) :HeartThrob: But it is only my opinon(I'm getting used to doing that!) :dsunny:

I am sure you are on to something here Micah. :HeartThrob:


Jesus did say that we had be reborn and it would seem that this birthing has already taken place for those in this forum. Are we mature as Father, not yet, but I do see potential. We are brothers to Christ as I believe it is the Christ Spirit in us that we yet in physical bodies are here to nurture. In love and in light.  :HeartThrob:


Love Julie

[sheila]

Perf3ction is of the Spirit of Love...and God has demanded all the fruits of the spirit........

   righteousness,joy etc..however long-suffering mercy and compssion also are fruits of thye spirit

of Love..and His desire to have these fruits developed in His spirit children that they be whole

  is the very reason He made the evil contrast.  suffering comes from the expierence of wickedness

  mercy and compassion are also developed as a quality of love through the wicked contrast tool

   suffering wrong/evil teaches and developes forgiveness[keeps no recoord of the offense]another

fruit of the spirit of LOVE

   Learning obediance through suffering is what perfects these fruits of the spirit.

..so yes...He developes

and teaches His children through both positive and negative contrast...and makes all things work to the good

of those that love Him.

   fair wether freinds are not really freinds..great bonds are formed and strengthened through hard times

   hireling shepherds..false shepherds..abandon the sheep when they see the wolf[evil] coming

    Jesus felt great pity[copassion] on the people..for they were like sheep without a shepherd....

skinned and thrown about.

    He promised and left us a 'seed'..when He saw evil coming.......

       so when you look about and see wickedness rampant in the earth..realize that through the suffering

of this evil..the eternal fruits of the Holy spirit such as compassion,long-suffering,and mercy and

the keeping no-record of the offense are being developed in the Sons of God...that they ay be

whole,perfect and in HIS IMAGE AND LIKENESS..Lacking nothing of the fullness of His spirit.

   remember this..everytime you start pointing the finger of blme..as Job's false comforter/freinds

did..and be careful lest you declare yourself more righteous then God..and obscure the counsel

of God without knowledge

[lomarah]

Sheila that post spoke to me and confirmed what He told me last night. Brought me to tears.  :HeartThrob:

Thank God He is wiser than we!  :HeartThrob:

And Daj, I am hearing you... Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

[dajomaco]

For He chose us in Him, before the foundation of the world, to be holy and blameless in His sight. In love

He did this to present the church to Himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or anything like that, but holy and blameless.

But now He has reconciled you by His physical body through His death, to present you holy, faultless, and blameless before Him—

Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely.
And may your spirit, soul, and body be kept sound and blameless for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Now to Him who is able to protect you from stumbling and to make you stand in the presence of His glory, blameless and with great joy,

[dajomaco]

So are you Perfect?     

If as you said, True Love is such and EASY path, then PERFECTION must be easy.

I don't believe you really meant that.

Love Julie   

I really meant it .
I agree that the LOVE that humanity has for it's self is hard and not an easy path.
Then to think about perfection and how absolutely arduous it is.
There isn't even a single person born of man that has taken one step on the path
to perfection.
We are flawed we are not perfect No one even knows what perfection is.
The closest we get to it is by believing, we have been made perfect by God
That we had nothing to do with it.
The simple fact is we are not perfect.
We have been MADE perfect.

So is it easy to receive the free gift of perfected LOVE? –YES

Is it hard to keep our flesh out of the process? YES very hard.
The flesh demands it's Glory.
The flesh would Love to glory in the realm of perfection ,
the flesh would take great pride in being a part of True Love.
But the Love of the flesh is the love that kills 

[dajomaco]

That's fine dajomaco, if you wish to preach that Christ lived and demonstrated the life of a Pharisee,
that's your choice with your freewill. That is not for me thank you, I prefer the simplicity of Christ.

Last post when we share our opinions with each other.
We have to share honestly.

Last post says that I preach that Christ lived and demonstrated the Live of a Pharisee.
based on this ...


  He demonstrated and taught the Pharisees,that no human being could be perfect
no matter how hard they tried.
They could be made perfect by the Blood of Jesus, as he wills.

The conclusion that last post has come with is willfully ignorant.
Meant to stir up contention .
From now on I will PM my response to last post's posts
I am not sure the nature  and purpose of this ruse   

[lomarah]

For He chose us in Him, before the foundation of the world, to be holy and blameless in His sight. In love

He did this to present the church to Himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or anything like that, but holy and blameless.

But now He has reconciled you by His physical body through His death, to present you holy, faultless, and blameless before Him—

Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely.
And may your spirit, soul, and body be kept sound and blameless for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Now to Him who is able to protect you from stumbling and to make you stand in the presence of His glory, blameless and with great joy,

Yes amen!!

(Btw when I said I hear you, I meant it, it wasn't sarcastic, and what my post was supposed to show is that we are to believe that HE is doing it in us, and the only "work" for us to do is to believe it. But whether we believe it or not, HE IS STILL DOING IT. Hence why He is the Saviour of all men, ESPECIALLY (not exclusively) of those who believe. AMEN!)

[lomarah]

HE opens the eyes of the blind, HE is the way the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father but by HIM.

AMEN!

[JulieTang84]

Thank you Daj for response  :HeartThrob:

But Please for give my ignorance as I am confused still  :sigh:


So are you Perfect?     

If as you said, True Love is such and EASY path, then PERFECTION must be easy.

I don't believe you really meant that.

Love Julie   

I really meant it .
I agree that the LOVE that humanity has for it's self is hard and not an easy path.
Then to think about perfection and how absolutely arduous it is.
There isn't even a single person born of man that has taken one step on the path
to perfection.
We are flawed we are not perfect No one even knows what perfection is.
The closest we get to it is by believing, we have been made perfect by God
That we had nothing to do with it.
The simple fact is we are not perfect.
We have been MADE perfect.

So is it easy to receive the free gift of perfected LOVE? –YES


Perhaps, but I would suggest that although the gift of Perfected LOVE is given, it is not easy to accept or hang on to. You stated it perfectly: There isn't a single person born of man that has taken on step on the path to perfect.

I agree!!!!! :gimmefive:


But doesn't this bring to naught the claim that True Love is such an easy path.

I liken this to being given a corvette (I surely always wanted one as a child) but as wonderful as the corvette would have been, what use would it have been?

Perhaps the Perfected gift of LOVE is more like a trust fund that will mature when one comes of age. Until then, one can dream, learn all they can about the car. Pray for it, visualize it but the full realization will not happen until one see's the shiny new car, opens the door and sits in, grasping the steering wheel with both hands.

I live for the day that I can fully realize Perfected Love. That I can truly shine and become fully the one I have always been. Love fully immersed in Father.   :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

Until then there is little I can do but patiently wait and Love as much as I can in the way given me.  :HeartThrob:

I truly hope that you take this in the spirit it has been written. I mean you no disrespect.

Love Julie
:HeartThrob: 

[JulieTang84]

That's fine dajomaco, if you wish to preach that Christ lived and demonstrated the life of a Pharisee,
that's your  :HeartThrob: choice with your freewill. That is not for me thank you, I prefer the simplicity of Christ.

Last post when we share our opinions with each other.
We have to share honestly.

Last post says that I preach that Christ lived and demonstrated the Live of a Pharisee.
based on this ...


  He demonstrated and taught the Pharisees,that no human being could be perfect
no matter how hard they tried.
They could :HeartThrob: be made perfect by the Blood of Jesus, as he wills.

The conclusion that last post has come with is willfully ignorant.
Meant to stir up contention .
From now on I will PM my response to last post's posts
I am not sure the nature  and purpose of this ruse   

:HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:  dajomaco  :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:


You are truly loved, yet I feel you are taking this personally and very much acting in the flesh.


Please, know that not one of us can read the heart of another, or for that manner the intent of the words based on the words alone.


If you are honest, you know that you spoke of some things that you knew would raise eyebrows.


This is not a bad thing and should never be considered so. However, should anyone of us be on a "Higher" Spiritual path than others, like ME then please show the fruits of the spirit and be patient with us and explain to the best of your ability what you mean.


The worst thing that should ever happen is that one should never apologize but state honestly that you have just been given a different understanding. No one is going to refute that.


So please with the spirit of love and all humility reach out your hand to lastpost as a brother in Christ.


I ask this in Love and as a sister in Christ :HeartThrob:

With Love,
Julie

[lastpost]

Dear dajomaco,

Truly, I have no ill feelings. I know that you have a sensitivity which reacts to elements that are not in harmony with it.

Peace.

[lastpost]

Dear Julie,

In reply and not wishing to upset anyone, yet I cannot really say it another way...I do believe that the Genesis parable was a Divine message given to man - but I also believe that it is not exactly as it was given due to the message being relayed by mouth for a long time before it was laid down. I also believe that revelations of God - by definition, if you will - supersede those passed prior due to mankind having progressed spiritually since the preceding one. I believe that, in the mind of man, God must become less man and more Divine.

Peace.

[JulieTang84]

Lastpost,


I believe we are very much on the same page here. I believe that we should never lose sight of the divine message on the basis of what we read.


Fact, we know there were people in the land of Nod. We are not told who they were or where they came from, just that Cain went there.


All we do know is that we are told that Father created man and woman. Could be that there were humans of one form or another walking the earth for eons. This could be factual and still tie in with Adam and Eve being the first Father breathed creations, meaning that Adam and Eve both had at some level divinity of Spirit and NO other human up until that time did.


It could also be that Father instructed Moses to record the events that Father gave him, for our benefit which is the divine message you spoke about. The parables that Jesus used to teach with always contained a divine message but they were not necessarily factual. They didn't have to be.


The simple truth is that we will likely never know what happened during the 6 days of creation during this life. I think it is enough just knowing that Father created everything. :dsunny:

Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. :HeartThrob:

Love without judgment and trust without question. Let the words fall where they may and allow the Spirit of all truth to reveal all.

Love Julie    :HeartThrob:

[dajomaco]

You are truly loved, yet I feel you are taking this personally and very much acting in the flesh.

Julie if you and I where face to face and I said
"Jesus demonstrated(showed) and taught(using life lessons)
That the Pharisees could not make them self's perfect" . 


"He demonstrated and taught the Pharisees, that no human being could be perfect
no matter how hard they tried".

Then you looked at me and said "so you are saying Jesus taught and demonstrated
that we should all strive to be Pharisees"

I would giggle and say no then I would say it again may be a different way"

after awhile if you still come to the conclusion that I preach that Jesus wants
to make us all Pharisees.

I would not take it personally the Holy Spirit is your teacher and you am I
to judge him.

Now the difference here is the words are written they can repeated
a thousand times by simply reading a thousand times.

Even when I notify Last Post that he may have interpreted what I said
wrongly( not as I had indented)

Only the Holy Spirit can open the eyes to see.
I am convinced and I think Last post is convinced that this is not
a simple matter of miscommunication.
 
My life is made easier when I read your Posts Julie
One of the fruits of the Spirit is having no guile
I can imagine that walking with out guile in our fruit basket would make the walk easier.

[micah7:9]

Amen, friend, Amen. :dsunny:
I love the fruit basket thought, and as I think of it, a basket full of fruit will, without being tended, given out, or taken for ones self to use, will begin to rot.
And that rotting would cause guile(trickery, deceit, treachery) all human attributes, which love will overcome.
An empty pitcher is useless...unless filled. :HeartThrob:

****OP...Freewill is a myth and here's proof

[JulieTang84]

Oh Dajomaco, it has surely been a long day  :girlheart:


I never bought into the Pharisee debate. I questioned your statement regarding True Love being an easy path. The Love given by Father is priceless,it is life and all truth. How can mere man walk the same path loving everything and everyone as Father loves us.


We are here, all baring the fruits of the spirit the best we know how. We should always nurture and support one another and feast on the fruits of one another with thanks to Father and love for each other.


Love to you,  Julie :HeartThrob:
[size=78%] [/size]

[Tom H]

I don't assume Genesis is a parable. I've read about folks referring to the "other people" before based on a misunderstanding of the two accounts in Genesis. I think the folks in Nod were Adam and Eve's descendents. I don't think we know how much time passed and how many siblings were born before Cain went to Nod. Just because a few are named, that doesn't mean that's all of them. Those folks lived long lives, and must have had a lot of kids that spread out as far as Nod. Cain was probably paranoid somebody would kill him because they would have heard what he did to Able from some of his siblings. Adam and Eve's children had to have hooked up with each other because they were the only ones around. The genetic line wasn't as corrupt in the beginning. So incest wasn't an issue. Moses was up on that mountain a long time. I can imagine God telling him the story of creation. I know modern evolutionary scientists claim the earth is much older than scripture seems to indicate, but I've also learned about the bias involved in calculating dating methods. I know some folks want to compromise and say God could have use evolution, but I think that's just a cop out. I have no problem with creation happening just the way it says in Genesis because nothing is impossible for God. I was taught evolution in school, but I changed my mind when I got more information just like I changed my mind when I got more information about hell. Some folks ask where the different races came from. The best theory I ever heard is that Noah's sons wives' genes played a part. Assuming the brothers spread out to different areas after the flood dried up, large groups of descendents of each brother and his wife had almond eyes, darker skin, light skin, etc. that concentrated in large groups in different places on earth. I don't see the need to assume Genesis is a parable or there were other folks around before Adam and Eve. I know everybody has their own perspective based on their own life experience, but that's mine. I still wonder about that day the sun stood still (Joshua 10:13), and I hope I find out how that happened some day. But I'm not ready to say it's just a parable because I can't see how it could happen. Perception can be distorted. I don't know if those guys were munchin on shrooms or what, but maybe it just looked like the sun stood still. That's why "by faith are we walking, not by perception" (2 Corinthians 5:7). There's stuff in scripture that's mysterious, but I don't think that means it's automatically a parable or a myth. There's stuff that's mysterious in daily life, but I'm pretty sure it's real. Some folks think it's all just a dream though. I believe God is real even though he's invisible, but I can understand why atheists don't. I'm amazed by the intelligent design in creation, but some folks think it's just an accident that came from nothing. I don't know how the thing with Genesis popped up or what it has to do with free will being a myth, but I just wanted to comment on what I read. God is spirit, light, and love, and we are his spiritual children created to shine that love into a world of darkness. Let's do it.

[micah7:9]

Hey Tom H. No offence intended.  You start out your post, "I don't assume.................. Genesis is a parable."

And then you go on to write about all your assumptions like, and this one stood out first, " Moses was up on that mountain a long time. I can imagine God telling him the story of creation."
As though the Lord God would have allowed Moses to offer a typo.
And how about, "Those folks lived long lives, and must have had a lot of kids that spread out as far as Nod."
Must have? We have no idea, accept to assume.

Now here you make a valid point, at least for me, " I don't think we know how much time passed and how many siblings were born before Cain went to Nod."  :HeartThrob: :dsunny:
That is something to consider.

[Tom H]

I agree I'm making assumptions because I'm trying to fill in the blanks, but, despite the fact that I don't assume Genesis is a parable, I have to try to understand how there could have been other folks in Nod if I believe Adam and Eve were the first humans. So, since it's not written, I have to figure those other folks had to be descendents of Adam and Eve. Scripture said they lived long lives, and yes I'm assuming they had lots of kids in hundreds of years. I prefer to assume that rather than assume there were other folks before Adam and Eve since scripture seems to say they were the first humans. Scripture said Moses was up on the mountain 40 days, right? That's a pretty long time. I don't know where the typo comes in though. I think it just comes down to whether you believe Genesis as it's written or assume it's figurative or a myth or whatever. There are mysteries in scripture we try to figure out by making assumptions. I'm not saying assumptions are bad because sometimes that's all we've got. I mean can we see God? No, but I believe he's real. So I guess you could say I'm making an assumption about that. I guess it's just a matter of what you believe or put your faith in. I prefer to make an assumption that the the story in Genesis is not a parable, but, hey, that's just crazy old me.

[eaglesway]

I do not believe Genesis is a parable either, at least not completely. Paul took it literally concerning Adam, as on man, through whom sin and death came into all men. I dont mind being in Pauls company on that issue. I once calculated that if Adam and Eve had a child every three years and their children bore children form their mid-twenties, one every five years- well I wont bore anyone but the numbers multiply exponentially at a fairly rapid rate. All of these kinds of discussions REQUIRE certain assumptions to be made(because gigantic lengths of time and complicated events are covered in a few words in the scriptures), and altho I am sure we are all sincere and hav given careful consideration to those assumptions we make, we cannot count them as authoritative and we can't convince anyone but ourselves by them. So that is why we discuss them on a forum, where we can present out opinions as friends and hav interesting discussions from our different perspectives. Novel idea actually, for Christians- who seem to love to bash, one another with their partially informed beliefs- but an idea that the "world" seems to have pretty well in hand.