Freewill is a myth and here's proof

[jbertonbounds]

I can certainly see arguments for both full God-control will and limited will.  As for free will, it's all in how you define the term.  It's like somebody said earlier (and Paul said it too), we see in part on this issue, and later we will understand fully.  That, too, is part of God's plan.  ANYONE who claims they see it all fully and understand it all fully is deceived, one who is "wise and learned."

[micah7:9]

Again  :thumbsup:

[dajomaco]

I do not believe we free will

But I do believe we have the freedom of choice.

The very nature and essence of Love requires that I have freedom to choose to Love
if I do not have that freedom I am not able to Love freely.
If Gods Love for me is true. True  Love, than he must leave me the
choice of accepting or rejecting his Love.
When Man rejects God he is actually rejecting a counterfeit Love.
For no man has or will reject Gods perfect Love
when it is presented to him in its purest form.

I guess I still have a ways to go on learning how to present the good news.
(may be learning less and accepting more).

[micah7:9]

We have a good start, standing on that foundation of HIS LOVE, is above reproach. I thank the Lord that I do not have "free will" if I should have that attribute, my flesh, itself would deny my Creator. :dsunny:

[dajomaco]

Amen Brother :Peace2:

[jbertonbounds]

We have a good start, standing on that foundation of HIS LOVE, is above reproach. I thank the Lord that I do not have "free will" if I should have that attribute, my flesh, itself would deny my Creator. :dsunny:

Good point. :thumbsup:

[jbertonbounds]

I do not believe we free will

But I do believe we have the freedom of choice.

The very nature and essence of Love requires that I have freedom to choose to Love
if I do not have that freedom I am not able to Love freely.
If Gods Love for me is true. True  Love, than he must leave me the
choice of accepting or rejecting his Love.
When Man rejects God he is actually rejecting a counterfeit Love.
For no man has or will reject Gods perfect Love
when it is presented to him in its purest form.

I guess I still have a ways to go on learning how to present the good news.
(may be learning less and accepting more).

Excellent point, but how do you define "free will?"

[jbertonbounds]

Let me explain.

I have heard diverse opinions on whether we have free will, but in the contexts of these many opinions, it seems clear that people are defining the term "free will" in different ways.  The main variable that seems apparent is in the degree of "freeness" of ones will. 

Anyone would agree that we are not free to flap our arms and fly.  But most would agree that we are free to choose between chocolate and vanilla icecream.  However, some would disagree, contending the God made that choice for you before the creation.  Each of us must decide where we draw these lines in our own definition.  That's why, when we state our opinion on free will, we need to first state our own definition of the term "free will" - so that we don't end up arguing over words, when often we are saying the same thing.

[rosered]

 
  I believe our flesh wants what it wants and  wars against the Spirit
  its not so much'' free will''  as it is an adversary  to doing those things that please God  :2c:

[jbertonbounds]

  I believe our flesh wants what it wants and  wars against the Spirit
  its not so much" free will"  as it is an adversary  to doing those things that please God  :2c:

LIKE

[eaglesway]

If we get too hung up on specific terminology, the "hot button effect" prevents us from having reasonable discussions on complex subjects. No ones will is free "from God". Yet, God allows everyone a measure of freedom, for the purpose of developing stewardship. Good stewardship, or discipleship, is operating within the freedom God has given, yielding to the grace He supplies, to do the right thing, or- "pick up the cross and follow". The outworking of that is more freedom, because harmony with God's heart and plan and love is the glorious freedom of the children of God. For freedom Christ has set me free................not free FROM GOD, but rather, free WITHIN THE IMMENSITY OF GOD.

If you continue in my word you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free.

[dajomaco]

Let me explain.

I have heard diverse opinions on whether we have free will, but in the contexts of these many opinions, it seems clear that people are defining the term "free will" in different ways.  The main variable that seems apparent is in the degree of "freeness" of ones will. 

Anyone would agree that we are not free to flap our arms and fly.  But most would agree that we are free to choose between chocolate and vanilla icecream.  However, some would disagree, contending the God made that choice for you before the creation.  Each of us must decide where we draw these lines in our own definition.  That's why, when we state our opinion on free will, we need to first state our own definition of the term "free will" - so that we don't end up arguing over words, when often we are saying the same thing.

\
The words that seem most confusing, are the ones that people assume have the same meaning,    but are actually worlds apart.

The counter server comes up to me and asks me would I like a chocolate or vanilla ice-cream cone.
I choose vanilla (I have activated my free will by saying" I would like vanilla please") my choice.

The server comes back and says" sorry we ran out of vanilla".

The more I associate or expect something to happen in the future, because I made a choice. 
The more I will be convinced I have free will.
The fact that I can control the future thru the use of my free will.

Is false statement.

Yet it is a scientific fact.
As a matter of fact the whole premise of science is to observe
and then reproduce the exact results.
  As a matter of free will in the lab someone can follow a formula and expect
to know exactly what they will have in the future.
I think in the realm of conciseness' and reality the more we are aware of having no free will
The idea that we are in is will is an easier way to walk by faith.

Of course this is only our opinion.

                           

[lastpost]

I apologise if this is long or perhaps arduous to read. As a certain aspect of this subject, and in line with my own understanding and experience (which will not necessarily be the understanding of others from what I have read here), may I attempt to explain how I perceive what is the abuse of the ability to choose?

The continual opting of evil and wilful denial of good breeds as a consequence a retaliation to that which is pure and good, and a craving and desire for that which is debased. Souls of this character are incarned in bodies where the animal passions have great sway. They begin by giving in to animal desires, and end by being owned by the body. Noble aspirations, divine longings, desire for both holiness and purity - all are stifled, suffocated and quenched, and in place of the spirit (which should dominate) the body reigns supreme, laying down its own laws, blotting out all moral and ethical light, and surrounding the spirit with influences and impulses of impurity. Such a spirit is in a desperately perilous case.

Other spirits surround it who themselves are victims to kindred vices and long to live over again their sensual moments, and find their gratification in encouraging and leading the spirit to base and debasing sin. This tendency of bodily sin to rebirth itself is one of the most fearful and dreaded of the consequences of conscious gross violation of nature's laws introduced and governed by God.

Around the alcohol-palaces in the cities, the dens of vice haunted by miserable wretches who are lost to self-respect and any sense of shame, hover the spirits who themselves are enjoyers and lovers of intemperance and debauchery. They gloat and glory with fiendish glee over the downward course of the spirit whom they desire to ruin. In places where the vicious amass and congregate the dark spirits throng demonstrating something of the mystery of evil.

It is the influence of these debased and malignant spirits which tends so much to aggravate the difficulty of retracing lost steps - there are various knots of malicious spirits, who find their joy in wrecking souls and dragging them down to their own miserable level.

Such are they who gravitate to their relevant places - their "own place" - "below the earth" in dimension indeed. They and their tempters find their home together where they live in hope of gratifying passions and lusts which have not faded with the loss of the means of satisfying their cravings - "he who is filthy let him be filthy still".

Such as these spring only from deliberate, conscious and wilful rejection by the soul of all that is good honourable and ennobling. This is the "sin unto death" spoken of in the Bible; the sin against the Holy Spirit of God of which we are told. The sin of willingly rejecting the influences of God and His holy angel ministers, and of preferring, even relishing, the death caused by vice and impurity to the life of holiness and purity and love. It is the sin of exalting the animal to the practical extinction of the spiritual; of degrading even the physical, the corporeal; of feeding and cultivating sensual earthly lusts; of depraving the sensations and the lowest of tastes; of reducing the human to the level of the lowest savage.

In such a one the Divine essence is suffocated and quenched, the baser elements of the carnal are highlighted, fostered, forced on, developed to improper excess. They achieve absolute dominance, they quench the spirit and extinguish all desire for any progress which has no meaningful purpose. The vice sustains and perpetuates itself, and it drags the rogue who has submitted himself to the animal recreations further and further away from the path of progress, until even the animal becomes diseased and afflicted; the unhealthily stimulated passions seek to devour themselves; and the voice of the spirit is obscured and cannot be heard for a terrible period. Down the soul must sink, down and down, down, further and further, until it is "lost" in all but impenetrable unintelligibility.

This is "the unpardonable sin". It is not unpardonable because the Supreme Being will not pardon it, but because the sinner wills it to be so. Unpardonable, because pardon is impossible where sin is agreeable, and penitence unknown.

In my opinion, that is an extreme example of the abuse of the freedom to choose with the individual will - the abuse of freewill.

The redemption through Christ of those so utterly lost in the outer darkness is another aspect but not the point of this post.

Peace.

[micah7:9]

Rom 8:20  For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Rom 8:21  Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

Eph 2:3  Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

[jbertonbounds]

Rom 8:20  For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Rom 8:21  Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

Wow.  You could start a new thread with those two Romans scriptures.  I think most of modern Christendom ignores these verses, because I know that the average christian does not believe this.  They explain away verses like these in ways that don't really even make sense.  Then they say, "You must not take it out of context."  Dude, I always look at the context.

UR makes sense!

[dajomaco]

Lastpost I read your post
I liked the turn of the phrase   the abuse of the ability to choose?

I cut & pasted your post in to (word) and then inserted my opinions that were contrary to yours.
I did not want to post it with out your perimssion.
I did not want so much that You and I have a debate .But I rather prefer a format for the sake of clearity.
Where two ideas pressed up agaist each other, we can see better if they are different branches from the same root.

So choose (what harm could come from it)God might bless you.

[lastpost]

Dear dajomaco,

Whatever is in your mind please do if you wish!

[sheila]

what people3  often fail to leave out..when they judge law and condemnation unto others...is this

  one little fact.  If you have broken one of them..you are guilty of them all.

   and if we are no lnger under law..but Grace..then why do you not obey Jesus Christ..and judge not

  lest ye be judged?For with the same judgement ye judge ye shall be judged..and in the above case..

  it would appear guilt of the unforgiveable sin is in order.


  now men like to compare themselves to other men..and say such things as...'I thank you Lord that I am

not like so and so over there"   and what do you know,O'man that so and so doesn't beat his breast

and plead  for mercy..........seems Jesus Christ preferred the harlots and tax collectors ver self-righteous

Phairesees and offspring of vipers spirits..Pharisees aand sadducees called Him  wino and glutton


   I'm so glad Jesus is  freind to the sinners..and heals afflictions and disease...

  ITELL YOU THE TRUTH...THE TAX_COLLECTORS AND PROSTITUTES ARE ENTERING THE KINGDOM

OF GOD AHEAD OF YOU.  FOR JOHN CAME TO YOU TO SHOW YOU[HE WHO TAKES AWY ALL THE SINS

OF THE PEOPLE] THE WAY OF RIGHTEOUSNESS..BUT YOU DID NOT BELEIVE HIM,BUT THE TAX-

COLLECTORS AND THE PROSTITUTES DID.AND EVEN AFTER YOU SAW THIS YOU DID NOT BELEIVE HIM.

    these such religious spirit type demons are remnants of babylon religion..and dragon breath dctrines..it is

these very spirits that saay 'Lord,Lord,did we not do thus and thus" It is time the little children

learn to handle such spirits. trample them..if they may perhaps bruise your heel..crush their head.


   Dan is a serpent by the wayside..who strikes the heel of the horse,cozing both horse and rider to

fall backward.  Dan means judge..Judas was of that tribe and typified the son of perdition..that is not

sealed in Rev 7.

   now..this falling backward..let's look into that  John 18;4-8  when Jesus said I AM HE  they drew bck

and fell to the ground...v 8   I TOLD YOU THAT I AM HE,Jesus answered...'If you are looking for me

then let these men go" this hppened so that the words he had spoken would be fulfilled..."I have

not lost one of those you gave me" so this offspring oof viper spirit that condemned the sinless Jesus

Christ..through entering Judas[Dan/judge]..must let these men go.[LET MY PEOPLE GO]


   The Branch from Jesse  Isaaih 11;8  the infant will play near the hole of the cobra,and the young child

put his hand into the vipers nest. They will neither harm nor destroy on all my holy mountain..

for the earth will be full of the knowledge of the Lord,as the waters cover the sea.


   IN THAT DAY THE ROOT OF JESSE WILL STAND AS A BANNER FOR THE PEOPLE'S,THE NATIONS

WILL RALLY TO HIM,AND HIS PLACE OF REST WILL BE GLORIOUS.

   nw,we can not saay....brother,let me remove the splinter from your eye..when we have a log[torture

stake of judgement/law] in  ours...and the cure for this is to see the serpent on the pole..that yu may

look at it and live.

[JulieTang84]

That was beautifully said Sheila :HeartThrob:

[micah7:9]

I didn't really understand. Sheila could you elaborate, I am slow and I mean no offence, what  you wrote was very good and I see what you said, but I did not get how it went with the post of free will being a myth. :HeartThrob:

[dajomaco]

I apologise if this is long or perhaps arduous to read. As a certain aspect of this subject, and in line with my own understanding and experience (which will not necessarily be the understanding of others from what I have read here), may I attempt to explain how I perceive what is the abuse of the ability to choose?

The continual opting of evil and wilful denial of good breeds as a consequence a retaliation to that which is pure and good, and a craving and desire for that which is debased. [i](a craving and desire for that which is debased. Is NOT the result  of the continual opting of evil and wilful denial of good breeds as a consequence.
It is our nature  .It is intrinsic it is the reality of our flesh and it is our automatic default position). [/i] Souls of this character are incarned in bodies where the animal passions have great sway. (You are very accurate in the description of characters with these kind of souls I am such a character with such a Soul.)  174
They begin by giving in to animal desires, and end by being owned by the body.
(The first animal desire I had was milk from my Mothers breasts. Jesus was born.)
Noble aspirations, divine longings, desire for both holiness and purity - all are stifled, suffocated and quenched[i],( yes I agree totally  Wretched.  TRUE Holiness is the insanity of the flesh and its desire for it.) [/i] and in place of the spirit (which should dominate) the body reigns supreme, laying down its own laws, blotting out all moral and ethical light, and surrounding  the spirit with influences and impulses of impurity.( The flesh does not work with the Spirit .The flesh can not help or in any way support or make The Spirit stronger The flesh can react to the Spirit but the Spirit is not waiting for the flesh to do anything)[/i]made strong  Such a spirit is in a desperately perilous case.

Other spirits surround it who themselves are victims to kindred vices and long to live over again their sensual moments, and find their gratification in encouraging and leading the spirit to base and debasing sin.( [i]I believe  that to hold the Idea. That there are people Who miss use the actual holy Spirit or they don't appreciate the Spirit of God the way you do or think they should. Means you got the gift you just haven't opened it yet.
The glorious gift of Knowing Christ and his verdict, that grace for every one every where
was the perfection of LOVE.)[/i] This tendency of bodily sin to rebirth itself is one of the most fearful and dreaded of the consequences of conscious gross violation of nature's laws introduced and governed by God. [i]( We were born into sin. We were born again when Jesus through the Spirit gave us a new birth.) [/i]
Around the alcohol-palaces in the cities, the dens of vice haunted by miserable wretches who are lost to self-respect and any sense of shame, hover the spirits who themselves are enjoyers and lovers of intemperance and debauchery. They gloat and glory with fiendish glee over the downward course of the spirit whom they desire to ruin. In places where the vicious amass and congregate the dark spirits throng demonstrating something of the mystery of evil. (The mystery of Evil is the recognition of evil has no effect on evil.
Recognizing evil in a fellow brother or sister strengths the evil, the idea that this human being may have going through their head is now seconded by some one else.That they are really evil after all this guy thinks I am evil. ) 

It is the influence of these debased and malignant spirits which tends so much to aggravate the difficulty of retracing lost steps - there are various knots of malicious spirits, who find their joy in wrecking souls and dragging them down to their own miserable level.

Such are they who gravitate to their relevant places - their "own place" - "below the earth" in dimension indeed. They and their tempters find their home together where they live in hope of gratifying passions and lusts which have not faded with the loss of the means of satisfying their cravings - "he who is filthy let him be filthy still".
((Do not call filthy that which God has declared clean.)

Such as these spring only from deliberate, conscious and wilful rejection by the soul of all that is good honourable and ennobling. This is the "sin unto death" spoken of in the Bible; the sin against the Holy Spirit of God of which we are told. The sin of willingly rejecting the influences of God and His holy angel ministers, and of preferring, even relishing, the death caused by vice and impurity to the life of holiness and purity and love. It is the sin of exalting the animal to the practical extinction of the spiritual; of degrading even the physical, the corporeal; of feeding and cultivating sensual earthly lusts; of depraving the sensations and the lowest of tastes; of reducing the human to the level of the lowest savage.
(We call these entry level qulifacations)

In such a one the Divine essence is suffocated and quenched, the baser elements of the carnal are highlighted, fostered, forced on, developed to improper excess. They achieve absolute dominance, they quench the spirit and extinguish all desire for any progress which has no meaningful purpose. The vice sustains and perpetuates itself, and it drags the rogue who has submitted himself to the animal recreations further and further away from the path of progress, until even the animal becomes diseased and afflicted; the unhealthily stimulated passions seek to devour themselves; and the voice of the spirit is obscured and cannot be heard for a terrible period. Down the soul must sink, down and down, down, further and further, until it is "lost" in all but impenetrable unintelligibility.

This is "the unpardonable sin". It is not unpardonable because the Supreme Being will not pardon it, but because the sinner wills it to be so. Unpardonable, because pardon is impossible where sin is agreeable, and penitence unknown.
(The whole think about evil being recognizable is pretty easy because the spirits seem to always identify themselves .)    [size=10pt]Unpardonable, because pardon is impossible where sin is agreeable, and penitence unknown.[/size]In my opinion, that is an extreme example of the abuse of the freedom to choose with the individual will - the abuse of freewill.

The redemption through Christ of those so utterly lost in the outer darkness is another aspect but not the point of this post.

Peace.

[sheila]

Hi Micah....my post was more of a rebuttal to lastposts' 'abuse of choice'...in short...why do such

  'choose' to disobey Jesus commands not to judge lest they be judged?   and..when we look at our fellowman

  with condemnation.guilt and blame[log=condemn as cursed which hangs on a tree]..which is a serpent

on a pole..it is one of the biggest serpents/evil spirits of all..and it is such ones that say they see...

   that enter into the kingdom last.

   offspring ov viper spirits lay up heavey loads[of accusation,condemnation] impossible for men to bear

    they are offended at mercy,grace and forgiveness...they caall the Holy spirit of love and forgiveness

   a demon..and want to cast grace out.

   they continue to choose to judge,accuse and condemn with all the sins that Jesus Christ redeemed man

from. they insist on counting sins against man..when Jesus said 'He is not counting their sins against them'

   they choose what is unlawful....to kill on the sabbath..instead of healing and saving life...

    Blind Pharisee's..offspring of vipers...they do the will of their father...a liar and murderer from the

beginning........they lie against God's holy spirit of grace and love and salvation and forgiveness and healing

  for man...and say it is not lawful..because the love of God is not in them,nor love for their fellow man

   these are the lawless ones[no love in them] that abuse choice..even the will of God to have mercy

on whom He shall have mercy[mankind]

    hope this clarifies........ :HeartThrob:

[micah7:9]

I apologise if this is long or perhaps arduous to read. As a certain aspect of this subject, and in line with my own understanding and experience (which will not necessarily be the understanding of others from what I have read here), may I attempt to explain how I perceive what is the abuse of the ability to choose?

The continual opting of evil and wilful denial of good breeds as a consequence a retaliation to that which is pure and good, and a craving and desire for that which is debased. [i](a craving and desire for that which is debased. Is NOT the result  of the continual opting of evil and wilful denial of good breeds as a consequence.
It is our nature  .It is intrinsic it is the reality of our flesh and it is our automatic default position). [/i] Souls of this character are incarned in bodies where the animal passions have great sway. (You are very accurate in the description of characters with these kind of souls I am such a character with such a Soul.)  174
They begin by giving in to animal desires, and end by being owned by the body.
(The first animal desire I had was milk from my Mothers breasts. Jesus was born.)
Noble aspirations, divine longings, desire for both holiness and purity - all are stifled, suffocated and quenched[i],( yes I agree totally  Wretched.  TRUE Holiness is the insanity of the flesh and its desire for it.) [/i] and in place of the spirit (which should dominate) the body reigns supreme, laying down its own laws, blotting out all moral and ethical light, and surrounding  the spirit with influences and impulses of impurity.( The flesh does not work with the Spirit .The flesh can not help or in any way support or make The Spirit stronger The flesh can react to the Spirit but the Spirit is not waiting for the flesh to do anything)[/i]made strong  Such a spirit is in a desperately perilous case.

Other spirits surround it who themselves are victims to kindred vices and long to live over again their sensual moments, and find their gratification in encouraging and leading the spirit to base and debasing sin.( [i]I believe  that to hold the Idea. That there are people Who miss use the actual holy Spirit or they don't appreciate the Spirit of God the way you do or think they should. Means you got the gift you just haven't opened it yet.
The glorious gift of Knowing Christ and his verdict, that grace for every one every where
was the perfection of LOVE.)[/i] This tendency of bodily sin to rebirth itself is one of the most fearful and dreaded of the consequences of conscious gross violation of nature's laws introduced and governed by God. [i]( We were born into sin. We were born again when Jesus through the Spirit gave us a new birth.) [/i]
Around the alcohol-palaces in the cities, the dens of vice haunted by miserable wretches who are lost to self-respect and any sense of shame, hover the spirits who themselves are enjoyers and lovers of intemperance and debauchery. They gloat and glory with fiendish glee over the downward course of the spirit whom they desire to ruin. In places where the vicious amass and congregate the dark spirits throng demonstrating something of the mystery of evil. (The mystery of Evil is the recognition of evil has no effect on evil.
Recognizing evil in a fellow brother or sister strengths the evil, the idea that this human being may have going through their head is now seconded by some one else.That they are really evil after all this guy thinks I am evil. ) 

It is the influence of these debased and malignant spirits which tends so much to aggravate the difficulty of retracing lost steps - there are various knots of malicious spirits, who find their joy in wrecking souls and dragging them down to their own miserable level.

Such are they who gravitate to their relevant places - their "own place" - "below the earth" in dimension indeed. They and their tempters find their home together where they live in hope of gratifying passions and lusts which have not faded with the loss of the means of satisfying their cravings - "he who is filthy let him be filthy still".
((Do not call filthy that which God has declared clean.)

Such as these spring only from deliberate, conscious and wilful rejection by the soul of all that is good honourable and ennobling. This is the "sin unto death" spoken of in the Bible; the sin against the Holy Spirit of God of which we are told. The sin of willingly rejecting the influences of God and His holy angel ministers, and of preferring, even relishing, the death caused by vice and impurity to the life of holiness and purity and love. It is the sin of exalting the animal to the practical extinction of the spiritual; of degrading even the physical, the corporeal; of feeding and cultivating sensual earthly lusts; of depraving the sensations and the lowest of tastes; of reducing the human to the level of the lowest savage.
(We call these entry level qulifacations)

In such a one the Divine essence is suffocated and quenched, the baser elements of the carnal are highlighted, fostered, forced on, developed to improper excess. They achieve absolute dominance, they quench the spirit and extinguish all desire for any progress which has no meaningful purpose. The vice sustains and perpetuates itself, and it drags the rogue who has submitted himself to the animal recreations further and further away from the path of progress, until even the animal becomes diseased and afflicted; the unhealthily stimulated passions seek to devour themselves; and the voice of the spirit is obscured and cannot be heard for a terrible period. Down the soul must sink, down and down, down, further and further, until it is "lost" in all but impenetrable unintelligibility.

This is "the unpardonable sin". It is not unpardonable because the Supreme Being will not pardon it, but because the sinner wills it to be so. Unpardonable, because pardon is impossible where sin is agreeable, and penitence unknown.
(The whole think about evil being recognizable is pretty easy because the spirits seem to always identify themselves .)    [size=10pt]Unpardonable, because pardon is impossible where sin is agreeable, and penitence unknown.[/size]In my opinion, that is an extreme example of the abuse of the freedom to choose with the individual will - the abuse of freewill.

The redemption through Christ of those so utterly lost in the outer darkness is another aspect but not the point of this post.

Peace.

Good work :thumbsup:

[micah7:9]

Hi Micah....my post was more of a rebuttal to lastposts' 'abuse of choice'...in short...why do such

  'choose' to disobey Jesus commands not to judge lest they be judged?   and..when we look at our fellowman

  with condemnation.guilt and blame[log=condemn as cursed which hangs on a tree]..which is a serpent

on a pole..it is one of the biggest serpents/evil spirits of all..and it is such ones that say they see...

   that enter into the kingdom last.

   offspring ov viper spirits lay up heavey loads[of accusation,condemnation] impossible for men to bear

    they are offended at mercy,grace and forgiveness...they caall the Holy spirit of love and forgiveness

   a demon..and want to cast grace out.

   they continue to choose to judge,accuse and condemn with all the sins that Jesus Christ redeemed man

from. they insist on counting sins against man..when Jesus said 'He is not counting their sins against them'

   they choose what is unlawful....to kill on the sabbath..instead of healing and saving life...

    Blind Pharisee's..offspring of vipers...they do the will of their father...a liar and murderer from the

beginning........they lie against God's holy spirit of grace and love and salvation and forgiveness and healing

  for man...and say it is not lawful..because the love of God is not in them,nor love for their fellow man

   these are the lawless ones[no love in them] that abuse choice..even the will of God to have mercy

on whom He shall have mercy[mankind]

    hope this clarifies........ :HeartThrob:

Thanks :HeartThrob:

[dajomaco]

Thank you Sheila
For some reason when I was reading your post.
I was thinking how different the surface of the ocean is with its waves
and being tossed to and fro .
Yet if you are in the ocean and you just go  under the surface the
water it is calm and still.
Reading your post was like allowing my self to be immersed in Grace.

The very surface of Grace is scary .
Grace is such a valuable commodity to some that they think giving it away
is evil and disrespectful.
They feel that Grace should be given to those who deserve it , those who would use it properly.
When grace is freely given it under values the grace they are selling.
They will go to war and kill to protect the value of there grace.

When I say they I mean me and my breed.