An ET personal email to me from father Matusiak

[marie glen]

The following email dialog resulted from an inquiry I had about the Orthodox Church.
I had read that they might be more tolerant or accepting of UR.
*The red text is added by me.

From: me
Does your doctrine embrace universal salvation (UR) – the salvation of ALL people thru Jesus blood?  The eventual reconciliation of ALL people to God?  Or do you believe only those who put their faith in Jesus will be saved, and the rest (99% of the human race) will go to hell forever?  I believe in UR, and I am looking for a church with which I can worship, serve, and fellowship.  My former Baptist church rejected me, in a manner of speaking.

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From father Matusiak:
To whom it may concern: (notice the impersonal nature of the response)

Orthodox Christianity does not engage in detailed debates of this sort, and "universal salvation" -- the belief that at the end of time everyone [including Satan and his minions] will be saved -- was considered a heresy from ancient times. (so due to tradition, we will keep it that way, regardless of what the scriptures teach)

In short, we do not presume to know how God judges (even though the scriptures teach us all about how God judges), and are clearly taught not to speculate on such matters.  (Hmmm.  Clearly?  I haven't clearly seen that in the scriptures!)  God alone knows who He saves and who rejects His salvation due to their lack of repentance.

If you need a recommendation on an Orthodox Christian parish in your area, please do not hesitate to write back. (we want you to join our church and support it, but we don't want to talk about your faith)

In Christ,
Father John Matusiak, OCA Q&As

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From: me
I believe God revealed UR to me.  I also believe God had called me to share UR with others.  I was told to keep quiet in my former Baptist church, but I cannot keep quiet.  I want to share this gospel of victory.  So then, if I should decide to join the Orthodox Christians in fellowship, worship, and service, and if I should teach others as opportunity presents itself the doctrine of universal reconciliation, then will I once again be rejected by the church?  Will I once again be told to be quiet or face disciplinary action? (questions evaded!)

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From father Matusiak:
To whom it may concern:

As in the early Church, "apocatastasis" -- especially as taught by Origen and popularized by some non-Orthodox groups today -- remains a heresy and, as such, it would not be taught in Orthodox Christian circles by anyone. (tell me about it!)

I might further add that, as Saint Paul writes, not all are called within the Church to teach, nor would one consider embracing the faith simply because one has a desire to teach this or that doctrine, especially if it is not a part of the Church's teaching in the first place. (nevermind what the scriptures teach) When embracing the faith, one "empties himself" of his or her own personal doctrines (even if they are scriptural) and embraces those that the Church has held and taught at all times in all places, in the broader quest to enter into union with Father, Son and Holy Spirit and the People of God in working out one's salvation. (Oh, so Jesus is not the only way?  You mean I can work out my own salvation?  Glad to know I am so powerful and in control of my own destiny!)

In Christ,
Father John Matusiak, OCA Q&As

(Notice he never mentioned anything about worship, fellowship, and service, as I addressed in my original inquiry)
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Oh yes, the church is higher, in some's view than the Scripture! Crazy, isn't it!!?

With all courtesy and brotherly/sisterly love however, can I point this small point out? although perhaps someone already has :smile: You wrote - "Or do you believe only those who put their faith in Jesus.."

This is still true.. no one will be reconciled or redeemed w/o faith in Jesus (which of course what you wrote is just a typo, I've likely put it that way also).

To me the question or claim is, does one have to believe before death? before the close of judgment day? when is said "those not believing will go to the 2nd death".. It's my belief no one will go to the LOF. Who's not going to believe after having been resurrected? and witnessed the judging of all things and all history, etc?

I think the biggest obstacle to UR is the idea most folks (outside of UR belief) have of it, that everyone is saved but without having to believe in and adhere to Jesus.. But this, according to scripture is not the message at all. [1 corinthians 15:23(-28)]

[marie glen]

in the end of the story, the master of the ceremony(caterer) was complimented- "Most folks wait till everyone is loaded and brings out the bad stuff....You waited till everyone was loaded and brought out the GOOD STUFF"(my paraphrase :o).

At least, that's how I read it. I always saw the story like this.................


They ran out of wine at the wedding feast(horrors!). Mary knew Jesus could turn water into wine because he had done it before- glutton and drunkard that he was- he liked good wine(horrors!).

She looked over to her son and said, "Come on Yeshua, the celebration is still going, please my son, keep the wine flowing". Mary loved a good party, a simple celebration of life among friends and family(horrors!)

Yeshua, knowing that his time had not yet come to reveal himself, nevertheless- a good sport and a good son- thought for a minute as Mary loooked at him pleadingly(as omy Mom can do)...... and finally, yielded to her and said, "Ok Mom"- and called for the water pots(they also drink water at weddings, especially summer weddings where there is lots of dancing and talking and laughing and eating) [Horrors!].

Yeshua leaned forward and said to the servers, "Bring over those water pots and refill them please!"- and they did, because he was held in high esteem among them as a carpenter and a learned young man of scriptures and the oldest brother and caretaker of his mother, indeed an honorable man in the community and well known to smile and laugh and play with children- after all, he WAS at this time still among brothers and sisters, having not yet become a threat or a stumbling stone or a rock of offence, or wounded in the house of his friends.

I don't believe there was any incantation or deep reverent prayer. I believe he commanded it silently and it was done. A wonderful time was had by all and the wedding slowly came to a contented end, satisfied and well fellowshipped -all the guests quietly singing and laughing and talking as they walked home.

:dsunny:  :dsunny:  Loved it!!  :dsunny: So "real".. also shadows of the Kingdom!

[micah7:9]

6 And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece.

7 Jesus saith unto them, Fill the waterpots with water. And they filled them up to the brim

--John 2



These were the priests ceremonial vessels for washing themselves.  But, you get the point, not exactly what you would expect to drink from, much less the best wine.

Still I wonder how you made the jump from "John 2:7 Jesus told the servers, "Fill the jars with water." The servers filled the jars to the brim. 8 Jesus said to them, "Pour some, and take it to the person in charge." The servers did as they were told.

This indicates to me that the jars were not standing full of dirty water but were empty and then filled with fresh water. Thoughts???

:iagree:  Re reading, either(it doesn't say)they emptied the dirty(?) water or they were all ready empty ready to be filled. Very good, thanks.

[marie glen]

His first miracle was turning water to wine.

His last miracle was turning wine to blood.

wow, isn't that something!? at (pretty much) the opening of His ministry (He had disciples) He turned water into wine, and then, at (pretty much) the close of His ministry, at the last supper, He proclaimed (turned) wine into His life saving blood.. :Chinscratch:

P.S -  i LOVE Jberton's new sig!! :smile:

[mplsfitter539]

When Jesus did his first miracle, he changed water to wine.

But, a little known part of the story is that he used the water that the priests used to clean themselves.

So he changes water used by people to wash their hands into wine.

Then he instructs the servants to take the wine to the most important man at the wedding.

The Governor tastes the wine and says, 'wow!  This is the best wine I've ever tasted.  Usually the party host serves the best wine first, but you have saved it for last.'

Jesus, of course, cannot help but serve the best wine first.

But, the churches are still the place where the priests wash their hands in dirty water that will some day become the best wine.

He didn't use the dirty water in the vessels He used the vessels and had them filled with new water. We are His vessels of honor not dishonor and we are being filled with fresh water and when we are filled to the top that is when the change happens and we are filled with the new wine.

Matthew 9

16 "No one patches an old coat with a new piece of cloth that will shrink. When the patch shrinks, it will rip away from the coat, and the tear will become worse. 17 Nor do people pour new wine into old wineskins. If they do, the skins burst, the wine runs out, and the skins are ruined. Rather, people pour new wine into fresh skins, and both are saved."

[jbertonbounds]

Oh yes, the church is higher, in some's view than the Scripture! Crazy, isn't it!!?

With all courtesy and brotherly/sisterly love however, can I point this small point out? although perhaps someone already has :smile: You wrote - "Or do you believe only those who put their faith in Jesus.."

This is still true.. no one will be reconciled or redeemed w/o faith in Jesus (which of course what you wrote is just a typo, I've likely put it that way also).

To me the question or claim is, does one have to believe before death? before the close of judgment day? when is said "those not believing will go to the 2nd death".. It's my belief no one will go to the LOF. Who's not going to believe after having been resurrected? and witnessed the judging of all things and all history, etc?

I think the biggest obstacle to UR is the idea most folks (outside of UR belief) have of it, that everyone is saved but without having to believe in and adhere to Jesus.. But this, according to scripture is not the message at all. [1 corinthians 15:23(-28)]

Well when your talking to an ET, they automatically assume that the faith is before physical death, because they do no believe in any second chances after physical death.  But can we really still call it faith after physical death? or just reconciliation/redemption/purification?  Faith before physical death "especially" saves us (as in 1 Tim 4.10) for a special blessing and special purpose - to live through the millennium age and rule and reign with Jesus, for to be a priestly nation to God.  Eventually all people are saved from death through the judgement and purification, "but only as through fire" (as in 1 Cor 3.15).  In my view, it's the difference between two types of salvation: (1) salvation FOR, and (2) salvation FROM.  We are all covenanted salvation from death.  But only the believers/followers/flesh-overcomers will receive special salvation for His special purpose.

[jbertonbounds]

His first miracle was turning water to wine.

His last miracle was turning wine to blood.

wow, isn't that something!? at (pretty much) the opening of His ministry (He had disciples) He turned water into wine, and then, at (pretty much) the close of His ministry, at the last supper, He proclaimed (turned) wine into His life saving blood.. :Chinscratch:

P.S -  i LOVE Jberton's new sig!! :smile:

Ah...OK, now I get it - water to wine literally, wine to blood symbolicly.

[mplsfitter539]

His first miracle was turning water to wine.

His last miracle was turning wine to blood.

wow, isn't that something!? at (pretty much) the opening of His ministry (He had disciples) He turned water into wine, and then, at (pretty much) the close of His ministry, at the last supper, He proclaimed (turned) wine into His life saving blood.. :Chinscratch:

P.S -  i LOVE Jberton's new sig!! :smile:

Ah...OK, now I get it - water to wine literally, wine to blood symbolicly.

Yes berton, out with the old and in with the new. Notice also that the vessels must be full for the change to take place.

[jbertonbounds]

I think the biggest obstacle to UR is the idea most folks (outside of UR belief) have of it, that everyone is saved but without having to believe in and adhere to Jesus.. But this, according to scripture is not the message at all. [1 corinthians 15:23(-28)]

Absolutely not the message the scriptures give us.  :thumbsup:  Even ET's agree with that.  But they cannot let go of their deep seated belief that hell is there to motivate people to believe and be faithful to Jesus.  They cannot see how anyone would want to follow the Christ without the reward of being saved form such a horrible fate as hell.  Since most of them (seemingly) believe out of fear of hell, then they don't understand believing out of love for Jesus and God's precepts.  A few do, but the whole doctrine they believe is overshadowed by the pervasive threat of endless hell.  It's hard to see the forest for the trees when the trees are all on fire. :laughing7:  I wonder how many of them would stay Christians if you could take away their "knowledge," threat, and fear of hell?