An ET personal email to me from father Matusiak

[jbertonbounds]

The following email dialog resulted from an inquiry I had about the Orthodox Church.
I had read that they might be more tolerant or accepting of UR.
*The red text is added by me.

From: me
Does your doctrine embrace universal salvation (UR) – the salvation of ALL people thru Jesus blood?  The eventual reconciliation of ALL people to God?  Or do you believe only those who put their faith in Jesus will be saved, and the rest (99% of the human race) will go to hell forever?  I believe in UR, and I am looking for a church with which I can worship, serve, and fellowship.  My former Baptist church rejected me, in a manner of speaking.

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From father Matusiak:
To whom it may concern: (notice the impersonal nature of the response)

Orthodox Christianity does not engage in detailed debates of this sort, and "universal salvation" -- the belief that at the end of time everyone [including Satan and his minions] will be saved -- was considered a heresy from ancient times. (so due to tradition, we will keep it that way, regardless of what the scriptures teach)

In short, we do not presume to know how God judges (even though the scriptures teach us all about how God judges), and are clearly taught not to speculate on such matters.  (Hmmm.  Clearly?  I haven't clearly seen that in the scriptures!)  God alone knows who He saves and who rejects His salvation due to their lack of repentance.

If you need a recommendation on an Orthodox Christian parish in your area, please do not hesitate to write back. (we want you to join our church and support it, but we don't want to talk about your faith)

In Christ,
Father John Matusiak, OCA Q&As

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From: me
I believe God revealed UR to me.  I also believe God had called me to share UR with others.  I was told to keep quiet in my former Baptist church, but I cannot keep quiet.  I want to share this gospel of victory.  So then, if I should decide to join the Orthodox Christians in fellowship, worship, and service, and if I should teach others as opportunity presents itself the doctrine of universal reconciliation, then will I once again be rejected by the church?  Will I once again be told to be quiet or face disciplinary action? (questions evaded!)

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From father Matusiak:
To whom it may concern:

As in the early Church, "apocatastasis" -- especially as taught by Origen and popularized by some non-Orthodox groups today -- remains a heresy and, as such, it would not be taught in Orthodox Christian circles by anyone. (tell me about it!)

I might further add that, as Saint Paul writes, not all are called within the Church to teach, nor would one consider embracing the faith simply because one has a desire to teach this or that doctrine, especially if it is not a part of the Church's teaching in the first place. (nevermind what the scriptures teach) When embracing the faith, one "empties himself" of his or her own personal doctrines (even if they are scriptural) and embraces those that the Church has held and taught at all times in all places, in the broader quest to enter into union with Father, Son and Holy Spirit and the People of God in working out one's salvation. (Oh, so Jesus is not the only way?  You mean I can work out my own salvation?  Glad to know I am so powerful and in control of my own destiny!)

In Christ,
Father John Matusiak, OCA Q&As

(Notice he never mentioned anything about worship, fellowship, and service, as I addressed in my original inquiry)
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[Lazarus Short]

I had wondered myself about the Orthodox Church and UR.  Now I don't need to wonder any more.

[Warhawk17]

Wow, that guy is a pro at beating around the bush.

[sheila]

neither do men pour new wine in old wineskins...Luke 5;39   aand no one after drinking old wine,wants the new,for he says, 'the old is better"

   thus the Laodecian church..which is self-satisfied with the status quo.Neither cold nor hot,'I m rich and don't need anything"

...they do not hunger and thirst.  The BE-atitudes..show who is blessed

   Blessed are the poor in spirit,blessed are those who mourn,blessed are the meek, Blessed are those who hunger and thirst, Blessed are

the merciful.

[Molly]

When Jesus did his first miracle, he changed water to wine.

But, a little known part of the story is that he used the water that the priests used to clean themselves.

So he changes water used by people to wash their hands into wine.

Then he instructs the servants to take the wine to the most important man at the wedding.

The Governor tastes the wine and says, 'wow!  This is the best wine I've ever tasted.  Usually the party host serves the best wine first, but you have saved it for last.'

Jesus, of course, cannot help but serve the best wine first.

But, the churches are still the place where the priests wash their hands in dirty water that will some day become the best wine.

[micah7:9]

Where can I find the "But, a little known part of the story is that he used the water that the priests used to clean themselves.

So he changes water used by people to wash their hands into wine."

I'm just wondering cause I've read or heard that?  :HeartThrob:

[Molly]

6 And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece.

7 Jesus saith unto them, Fill the waterpots with water. And they filled them up to the brim

--John 2



These were the priests ceremonial vessels for washing themselves.  But, you get the point, not exactly what you would expect to drink from, much less the best wine.

[micah7:9]

Thank you that was very enlightening! :dsunny:

[sheila]

Good find,Micah!!!!  when we wash our hands in His will..and leave off the 'works of wickedness' of our own hands[idols]...the water does become the

  Best wine!!!!

[micah7:9]

Good find,Micah!!!!  when we wash our hands in His will..and leave off the 'works of wickedness' of our own hands[idols]...the water does become the

  Best wine!!!!

Molly gets the credit, she pointed it out! :)

[sheila]

Sorry,Molly,I missed your post entirely!   :thumbsup:

[jbertonbounds]

Without a doubt there is some significant symbology in this bible story.  There must be much more than meets the eye of the reader.  The fact that he used that particular kind of water...? :dontknow:

Any ideas?

[eaglesway]

in the end of the story, the master of the ceremony(caterer) was complimented- "Most folks wait till everyone is loaded and brings out the bad stuff....You waited till everyone was loaded and brought out the GOOD STUFF"(my paraphrase :o).

At least, that's how I read it. I always saw the story like this.................


They ran out of wine at the wedding feast(horrors!). Mary knew Jesus could turn water into wine because he had done it before- glutton and drunkard that he was- he liked good wine(horrors!).

She looked over to her son and said, "Come on Yeshua, the celebration is still going, please my son, keep the wine flowing". Mary loved a good party, a simple celebration of life among friends and family(horrors!)

Yeshua, knowing that his time had not yet come to reveal himself, nevertheless- a good sport and a good son- thought for a minute as Mary loooked at him pleadingly(as omy Mom can do)...... and finally, yielded to her and said, "Ok Mom"- and called for the water pots(they also drink water at weddings, especially summer weddings where there is lots of dancing and talking and laughing and eating) [Horrors!].

Yeshua leaned forward and said to the servers, "Bring over those water pots and refill them please!"- and they did, because he was held in high esteem among them as a carpenter and a learned young man of scriptures and the oldest brother and caretaker of his mother, indeed an honorable man in the community and well known to smile and laugh and play with children- after all, he WAS at this time still among brothers and sisters, having not yet become a threat or a stumbling stone or a rock of offence, or wounded in the house of his friends.

I don't believe there was any incantation or deep reverent prayer. I believe he commanded it silently and it was done. A wonderful time was had by all and the wedding slowly came to a contented end, satisfied and well fellowshipped -all the guests quietly singing and laughing and talking as they walked home.

[Molly]

His first miracle was turning water to wine.

His last miracle was turning wine to blood.

[jbertonbounds]

His first miracle was turning water to wine.

His last miracle was turning wine to blood.

wine to blood?

[eaglesway]

He is still doing miracles :o)

[Molly]

I meant during his ministry before the cross.   


For this is my blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

--Mat 26:28

[jbertonbounds]

 :thumbsup:

[eaglesway]

I praise God for the blood of Jesus.

I thank God for the fruit of the vine (If it is a good vintage red, my personal preference.)

[Warhawk17]

He is still doing miracles :o)

Beware of false miracles though!

Matthew 24:24 NRSV For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and produce great signs and omens, to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.

Mark 13:22 NRSV False messiahs and false prophets will appear and produce signs and omens, to lead astray, if possible, the elect.

2 Thess 2:9 NLT This man will come to do the work of Satan with counterfeit power and signs and miracles.

When I think of "miracles" that deceive people, I think of faith healers, preachers of the prosperity gospel that credit themselves with supernatural abilities, and a lot of the so called miracles in the Charismatic and Pentecostal churches. I'm not saying true miracles don't happen. I look at Gary's testimony to see that God still works in wondrous ways. Just be on the alert!

[jbertonbounds]

In your opinion, how can we tell the difference between the false miracles and the true miracles?

[eaglesway]

Not every worker of miracles, even when they are real, is serving God. Spiritual gifts are given by grace through faith as a stewardship. Men and women are accountable to how they use thenm, for God's glory and purposes- or their own. "Did we not prophecy and cast out demons and do many mighty works in your name? Depart from me you lawless ones I never knew(was intimate with you). The law of God is love. "No greater love has a man than this....the true miracle.


Then on top of that the scripture speaks of "lying wonders and deceiving miracles worked int he power of Satan." The spirit of this age is a spirit of sorcery and lawlessness. Everywhere on TV, Movies, Novels, etc people are consuming images that make desolate, causing love to grow cold, and openng the minds and spirits of mankind to the illusive and destructive powers of witchcraft/sorcery(pharmekia). Paul confronted and overcame a jewish sorcerer, Bar-Jesus, who ruled a whole city by sorcery and was known as the "Great power of God". Peter confronted and overcame a sorcerer by the name of Simon, who was saved, but then tried to buy the power of God from the apostles. He was rebuked, even threatened severely.



Supernatural power, whether of God used unrighteously or of the devil- the spirit that now works in the sons of disobedience, requires great discernment, "Even the elect should be deceived".

Paul said, in the power of the Spirit, to Bar-Jesus, " You son of a serpent, how long will you pervert the straight ways of the Lord, behold the hand of the Lord is upon you and you will be led away blind".

It is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living God. ;o)

We know the works of God because they glorify Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and are done in the spirit of service. Even more we know the workers by the Logos of God, the sword of the Spirit who brings every hidden thing to light, which is why the road in America is littered with the broken pieces of ministries that glorify man- they always eventually get exposed.

Some people think THAT is the work of the devil

I am convinced it is the work of God, but of course, these are only my opinions, let the reader beware and listen to the Holy Spirit and the testimony of the scriptures.

[jabcat]

 :thumbsup: eaglesway

[Eduard]

It was considered heresy only after a certain emperor's decree...

And definitely not in ancient times.

[mplsfitter539]

6 And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece.

7 Jesus saith unto them, Fill the waterpots with water. And they filled them up to the brim

--John 2



These were the priests ceremonial vessels for washing themselves.  But, you get the point, not exactly what you would expect to drink from, much less the best wine.

Still I wonder how you made the jump from "John 2:7 Jesus told the servers, "Fill the jars with water." The servers filled the jars to the brim. 8 Jesus said to them, "Pour some, and take it to the person in charge." The servers did as they were told.

This indicates to me that the jars were not standing full of dirty water but were empty and then filled with fresh water. Thoughts???