Does UR include animals?

[Graph1159]

Hi everyone,
Sometimes those who do not believe in UR try to say that if you interpret the "all things" passages the way that UR Christians do, you would be teaching the salvation of every single living but non-human creature that has ever existed (sometimes they even ask about non-living objects). Since these people do not believe that animals have an afterlife, they assert that "all things" cannot mean every individual of any sort.

Many Christians would say that there is no basis to claim that animals have an afterlife because common belief is that animals do not have spirits (what do you think about that claim)?

For me, the most significant point to consider is that the last enemy to be abolished is death. Is the death of animals an enemy? Human killing is always a terrible tragedy even if in some cases it is also a necessity. But the killing of animals (for purposes such as food) is never portrayed by the Bible as something bad. But animals have emotions and physical senses, so illnesses leading to death are unpleasant experiences for animals that I don't imagine God enjoys.

Also, did animals die before the sin of Adam? If Adam's sin caused death to enter the animal kingdom, a strong case for animals' resurrection could be made.

I don't know if these questions can be answered based on what we're given in Scripture, but I'd like to have your thoughts on this.

I think the salvation of plants, cars, garden hoses, etc. can be debated in a separate thread if anyone's interested.

[jbertonbounds]

I do not know of any scripture that teaches us whether animals have an afterlife.
If in fact there is no scriptural basis, then to teach either way would be purely human teaching.

However, if animals do have an afterlife, let's just hope that does not include mosquitoes! :laughing7:

[redhotmagma]

I believe that animals will be reconciled.  We will be glorified, raised up to a new height, I believe animals will also.  IMO they will be like humans and we will be the sons of God to them.

[Lazarus Short]

The only scripture I know of on the subject was written by Solomon.  Here is a relevant except from an essay I am working on:

Looking through my Strong's Concordance at the entries for the word "soul," I see that the English language so often treats it as something that one possesses, rather than is, so I think this may be how the "your soul" usage came about.  But no, as a good friend once told me, your soul doesn't go flipping off to Heaven when you die.  What returns to God is the breath/spirit which He gave in the beginning.  The Revelation states that there are seven Spirits of God, and elsewhere the Holy Bible says that God is Spirit.  The part of us which is Spirit is God's portion, and therefore it returns to Him on our death.  Perhaps no one has said it better than Solomon, though his view is dark and despairing:

"For one event is for the sons of Adam, and one event for the animals; - and the one event that is to them is; - as these die, so those die; and the same breath is to all;  - and man dies the same as the cattle!  Is not the whole vanity?  The whole go to one place; the whole come from dust; and the whole return to the dust.  Who knows that the breath of the sons of Adam when it goes, ascends?  And that the breath of the cattle, when it goes down, departs to the earth?-"  [Eccleiastes 3:19-21 FFV]

What Solomon says, and as Fenton translated it, ties in with Genesis 2:7, where Fenton translates "the life of animals," instead of the more usual "breath of life."

If you follow Ellen White, the prophetess of the Adventists, you may be aware that she states that in the New Earth, Adam is given back the very plants he cared for in the Garden. 

[sheila]

lok what happens when He comes in judgement and slays the wicked. Former beastly natures,even

of lower creatures are changed  Isaaih 11;3-16   the infant will play near the hole of the cobra and

a child put his hand into the vipers nest,, "They will neither harm[shall not be hrmed of the secound death'

nor destroy on all my holy mountain.

   the wicked contrast..when in heaven was named the dragon...when it infiltrated

the serpent in the garden it was named the original serpent..when it infiltrated the beasts of the earth

was named the wild beast" and when it infiltrated man..it is named the man of sin..or son of perdition.

    the evil contrast is a nature changer..from God's image and nature.

  Fleshly bodies aare designed

  'weak' on purpose by God...the weakness is what we know as 'corruptible' in that it accepts both

negative and positive spiritual influence. Father teaches His children using both positive and negative...

for this 'exercize'

    He is delivering His whole creation...restoration of it all..that it may reflect His nature...He loves variety

  of life and loving dominoin over the 'works of His hands' will be established and immortal to show forth

  His perfection. He shall fill the entire universe with the works of His hands..and wonder shall follow

upon wonder.  The mind of man has not imagined what He has in store.

       there is a mystery of godliness and a mystery of godlessness due to be revealed when..

    'nothing that is hidden will not be revealed".....

[lomarah]

Isaiah 11:6 -The wolf will live with the lamb, the leopard will lie down with the goat, the calf and the lion and the yearling together; and a little child will lead them.

I for one am excited beyond belief to live among lions... I have absolutely no clue why and maybe Narnia influenced that yearning into me  :laughing7:  but it's something I've always looked forward to!

[jbertonbounds]

I have come to define "soul" as: the essence of who you are.  Soul is not the same thing as spirit, IMO.

There have been so many trillions upon trillions times trillions of some species in the animal kingdom, it's hard to imagine that they will all be resurrected and reconciled to God just like humans.  Maybe there will be animals in heaven, and from my studies of the scriptures I gather there will be, but I wonder if they will be the resurrected animals from the earth, or if they will simply be new animals.  Will Pookey the Poodle be there, of just dogs in general?  Cats, I'm sure, won't be! :laughing7:

[lomarah]

Hey now jbb! Fluffy, Smokey, Fletcher, Baby, Oliver and Snowy had BETTER be meeting me at the pearly gates!  :laughing7:

[jbertonbounds]

Hey now jbb! Fluffy, Smokey, Fletcher, Baby, Oliver and Snowy had BETTER be meeting me at the pearly gates!  :laughing7:

:laugh:    :LH:    :laughing7:    :rolllol:

[Lazarus Short]

I for one am excited beyond belief to live among lions... I have absolutely no clue why and maybe Narnia influenced that yearning into me  :laughing7:  but it's something I've always looked forward to!

My self-description on another site is "A lion in a den of Daniels."  :icon_jokercolor: For me, I'd rather hang with the tigers...

[Warhawk17]

Zender explains it very well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdR6Pi_idUE&feature=c4-overview&list=UUsw1xK5-g3H7ksQ3sYJ-ByA

[jbertonbounds]

Listened to it.  Don't agree with his philosophy.  I think he's interpreting the scriptures he used differently from me.  That's OK.  It's not a primary doctrine.

[Warhawk17]

1 Corinthians 15:44 Where there is a soulish body, there is also a spiritual one.

How else would you interpret this scripture?

[jbertonbounds]

My question is what is a "soulish body?"
In some translations, they used the word spiritual instead of soulish, taken from the Greek word
pneumatikos
1) relating to the human spirit, or rational soul, as part of the man which is akin to God and serves as his instrument or organ
  a) that which possesses the nature of the rational soul
2) belonging to a spirit, or a being higher than man but inferior to God
3) belonging to the Divine Spirit
  a) of God the Holy Spirit
  b) one who is filled with and governed by the Spirit of God
4) pertaining to the wind or breath; windy, exposed to the wind, blowing

The whole chapter of 1 Cor 15 in very interesting.  Certainly calls for further study, but for now I will stick with just human spirits being resurrected, but not all others of the animal kingdom.  As I read over the chapter, I can see how one might interpret it either way.  More study!

[Warhawk17]

I will search that too. I don't understand why it is so hard to believe that God won't reconcile all His creation, but I will read that chapter once I get the chance. I don't think that is the most important topic to study, but it's worth a look.

[micah7:9]

Why would anyone who believes in Jesus Christ and His resurrection be concerned with animals in the resurrection? Maybe there is some reason, but I sure don't get it. Sorry. :dontknow:

[Warhawk17]

Why not? God created animals too, and many humans love animals Does God not love the animals he created? For the record, I am not concerned about sharing this truth with people because I feel it is more important to spread the good news that pertains to humans, but I do believe every living creature will be reconciled back to God.

[Lazarus Short]

To me, it seems almost axiomatic that Jesus the Christ did what He did not just to redeem all mankind, but the entire created cosmos as well.  Does the Bible not say that the cosmos eagerly awaits the revealing of the sons of God?  Will the mountains and stars not sing for joy together??

[Warhawk17]

To me, it seems almost axiomatic that Jesus the Christ did what He did not just to redeem all mankind, but the entire created cosmos as well.  Does the Bible not say that the cosmos eagerly awaits the revealing of the sons of God?  Will the mountains and stars not sing for joy together??

:thumbsup: I just feel like we're underestimating God when we doubt His ability to save a certain part of His creation.

[Lazarus Short]

To me, it seems almost axiomatic that Jesus the Christ did what He did not just to redeem all mankind, but the entire created cosmos as well.  Does the Bible not say that the cosmos eagerly awaits the revealing of the sons of God?  Will the mountains and stars not sing for joy together??

:thumbsup: I just feel like we're underestimating God when we doubt His ability to save a certain part of His creation.

Exactly!

[Graph1159]

Thank you all for your responses. A lot of good points have been made.

Why would anyone who believes in Jesus Christ and His resurrection be concerned with animals in the resurrection? Maybe there is some reason, but I sure don't get it. Sorry. :dontknow:

For me, it's only because it may have some relevance to the way we present passages like Ephesians 1:10 and Colossians 1:20 (which speak of all things being headed up and reconciled in Christ) in reference to humans.

Maybe there will be animals in heaven, and from my studies of the scriptures I gather there will be, but I wonder if they will be the resurrected animals from the earth, or if they will simply be new animals.  Will Pookey the Poodle be there, of just dogs in general?

Opponents of UR often make the latter claim about humans, saying that God will make a new earth with new human creations who have been spiritually born again and physically resurrected (and in this way reconcile humanity in general) but not every human who has ever lived will be saved.

What are your thoughts about this?

[Lazarus Short]

I keep saying this:  If not all are saved, how can God ever be All in all?

[eaglesway]

Wow, that is so complicated! How could anyone ever understand that?   :declare:

[mplsfitter539]

I keep saying this:  If not all are saved, how can God ever be All in all?

That's it in a nutshell! Of course God is reconciling everything he ever created back to Himself. All means All period. I used to think how can He reconcile every animal with this limited amount of space here on earth. Well Laz like you said before the planet was much smaller before the flood but increased in size probably during the flood. I like that video you posted which shows how all land mass connects back together when the earth shrinks back to its original (pre flood state). The animation of the video shows perfectly the land masses were all one. I would post the url but I can't remember it.

DuWayne

[marie glen]

The only scripture I know of on the subject was written by Solomon.  Here is a relevant except from an essay I am working on:

Looking through my Strong's Concordance at the entries for the word "soul," I see that the English language so often treats it as something that one possesses, rather than is, so I think this may be how the "your soul" usage came about.  But no, as a good friend once told me, your soul doesn't go flipping off to Heaven when you die.  What returns to God is the breath/spirit which He gave in the beginning.  The Revelation states that there are seven Spirits of God, and elsewhere the Holy Bible says that God is Spirit.  The part of us which is Spirit is God's portion, and therefore it returns to Him on our death.  Perhaps no one has said it better than Solomon, though his view is dark and despairing:

"For one event is for the sons of Adam, and one event for the animals; - and the one event that is to them is; - as these die, so those die; and the same breath is to all;  - and man dies the same as the cattle!  Is not the whole vanity?  The whole go to one place; the whole come from dust; and the whole return to the dust.  Who knows that the breath of the sons of Adam when it goes, ascends?  And that the breath of the cattle, when it goes down, departs to the earth?-"  [Eccleiastes 3:19-21 FFV]

What Solomon says, and as Fenton translated it, ties in with Genesis 2:7, where Fenton translates "the life of animals," instead of the more usual "breath of life."

If you follow Ellen White, the prophetess of the Adventists, you may be aware that she states that in the New Earth, Adam is given back the very plants he cared for in the Garden.

That was awesome! (to read) I don't remember those verses in Ecclesiastes "the whole come from dust and the whole return to dust" - the perfect translation..

Ellen White was a great writer, or so the little bit I've read..