There are many things being taught in the church system that are in error

[SevanthDay]

There are many things being taught in the church system that are in error. Here is a list:

1)That Jesus atonement is limited in quality or scope

2) that the new covenant is conditional

3) the elect is limited to some

4) that the atoning work of Jesus Christ begins only after a sinner believes

5) that a person must believe in Jesus to be saved

6) God's judgement incorrectly taught

7) God's wrath incorrect taught

8) Jesus was a substitute for the sins of the human race who stands in God's place to incur God's wrath

9) God is appeased or propitiated for man's sins

10) That God saves man to save him for the punishment or penalty of his sins

11) God's foreknowledge not taught correctly

12) there is no free will but man can make influenced choices thus free will should not be taught

13) God is not sovereign over man's free choices

14) God does not interact with man in the making of choices

15) God does not determine every thing down to the last detail

16) incorrect teachings on God's unconditional love (agape)

17) incorrect teachings on God's conditional love (phileo)

18) They do not teach that it is God's faith working in the believer which is the gift of faith and it is spiritual faith

19) They do not teach that God is creating man in God's express image

20) Do not teach that man is presently in the sixth day of creation and God's work on him is not presently finished

21) Do not teach that God is responsible for man the way he is from day one until the day man is a finished work

22) Teach that God's original design for man is flawed

23) Do not teach that it is God who creates good and evil and do not teach that God is responsible for the good and evil that is in the world because he created man and satan (adversary)

24) Do not teach that God's will is always being done

25) Teach that man can thwart God's will

26) Do not teach hell correctly

27) Do not teach lake of fire judgement correctly

28) Can not teach what is spiritual or figurative language versus literal in the teachings of scriptures such as Jesus sayings, parables, and the book of revelations

29) That there is a war between satan and God when it is a war between the carnal mind and God

30) Teach what Jesus said before he died and rose again out of context and other scriptures in the old testament not in the light of Jesus atonement

Many errors need to be corrected and scriptures need to be correctly taught.

Would you like to discuss these errors one at a time?

You may not agree that these are all errors and there are going to many different viewpoints but lets us respect them. May God help us draw from one anther what God wants to show us through the Spirit and may we with God's guidance walk in his truth.

Please only deal with one topic on the list at a time and pick whatever one you want. It is not necessary to spend too much time on any topic but we can. This is a free for all discussion that depends on everyone input and should continue by itself with or without my input as long as there are people who want to share in this discussion.

God bless you,

SeventhDay

[eaglesway]

There are many things being taught in the church system that are in error. Here is a list:

1)That Jesus atonement is limited in quality or scope

2) that the new covenant is conditional

3) the elect is limited to some

4) that the atoning work of Jesus Christ begins only after a sinner believes

5) that a person must believe in Jesus to be saved

6) God's judgement incorrectly taught

7) God's wrath incorrect taught

8) Jesus was a substitute for the sins of the human race who stands in God's place to incur God's wrath

9) God is appeased or propitiated for man's sins

10) That God saves man to save him for the punishment or penalty of his sins

11) God's foreknowledge not taught correctly

12) there is no free will but man can make influenced choices thus free will should not be taught

13) God is not sovereign over man's free choices

14) God does not interact with man in the making of choices

15) God does not determine every thing down to the last detail

16) incorrect teachings on God's unconditional love (agape)

17) incorrect teachings on God's conditional love (phileo)

18) They do not teach that it is God's faith working in the believer which is the gift of faith and it is spiritual faith

19) They do not teach that God is creating man in God's express image

20) Do not teach that man is presently in the sixth day of creation and God's work on him is not presently finished

21) Do not teach that God is responsible for man the way he is from day one until the day man is a finished work

22) Teach that God's original design for man is flawed

23) Do not teach that it is God who creates good and evil and do not teach that God is responsible for the good and evil that is in the world because he created man and satan (adversary)

24) Do not teach that God's will is always being done

25) Teach that man can thwart God's will

26) Do not teach hell correctly

27) Do not teach lake of fire judgement correctly

28) Can not teach what is spiritual or figurative language versus literal in the teachings of scriptures such as Jesus sayings, parables, and the book of revelations

29) That there is a war between satan and God when it is a war between the carnal mind and God

30) Teach what Jesus said before he died and rose again out of context and other scriptures in the old testament not in the light of Jesus atonement

Many errors need to be corrected and scriptures need to be correctly taught.

Would you like to discuss these errors one at a time?

You may not agree that these are all errors and there are going to many different viewpoints but lets us respect them. May God help us draw from one anther what God wants to show us through the Spirit and may we with God's guidance walk in his truth.

Please only deal with one topic on the list at a time and pick whatever one you want. It is not necessary to spend too much time on any topic but we can. This is a free for all discussion that depends on everyone input and should continue by itself with or without my input as long as there are people who want to share in this discussion.

God bless you,

SeventhDay

Quite a list of absolute statements. Maybe putting forth such a comprehensive list is in itself confounding, since so many of them are open to so much interpretation. The idea that all of them are truisms is in itself maybe, IMO, a lil presumptuous. All of them have been discussed at length among the believers on the forum, so where would one begin?

That the church system is teaching many errors almost anyone in the UR belief would I think agree. However, what those errors are in particular outside of the truth of the salvation of all are mostly all matters of disputation and discussion among UR believers.

Setting these statements as foundational points for discussion implies that that are all true. IMO some of them are and some of them arent, as you said- "You may not agree that these are all errors...."

Number 29 for instance.

I believe both are true. Ther is a war between God and Satan. God started it and He will finish it. The word "adversary" implies conflict, as does the exhortation to "put on the full armor of God". There is also a war between the carnal mind and the renewed/spiritual mind, which is the mind of Christ (Behold I am making all things new, be renewed in the spirit of your mind), It is aluded to in many places, such as Romans 7....1 Corinthians chapts.2&3; and others. I also believ God is completely in control of this war- on both levels, and that He is teaching us His ways thru both conflicts. " Our weapons are not natural, but mighty through God for the pulling down of towers and strongholds that exalt themselves against the true knowledge of God."

The true knowledge of God, IMO, is how to walk in His ways, which is participating in the divine nature, loving everyone, forgiving our enemies, etc.

30 issues to discuss, whew :o)

I think the organized church is Babylon, "confusion by mixture". Most of what she teaches is error based in "extremes of truth"- polarizing positional perspectives on paradoxical paradigms  :o)

[eaglesway]

Another onewould be number 3) The elect is limited to some.

Complex because "at present" the elect is limited to some. That is what makes them "elect". If all were "elect" the word would hav no meaning.

All wll eventually be reconciled to God but in this present age when we speak of the "elect" we are speaking of those, who according to the foreknowledge of God are elected, called and chosen to participate in the ministry of reconciliation.

The rest will be reconciled in the ages to come(IMO).

As I see it this teaching is obscured by the false idea that the "elect" go to heaven forever and the rest go to hel forever. That there IS an elect is no longer a threat once we realize that what they are elected to is filling up the sufferings of Christ in bringing all the adversaries to reconciliation. "If we suffer with Him we will also be glorified with Him." "No greater love has any man than to lay down his life for his friends."

IMO, The meaning of the word elect, means "selected by grace from among the all." It is only because the "church system" teaches tht the "non-elct" will be tormented forever that anyome objects to the idea of "the elect" as not being all(again, IMO).

Once we see the elect as those chsen to fulfill the work begun in Yeshus the Anointed One- it is no longer offensive :o).

When the Babylonian church teaches that there are "elect" it teaches that the rest will be tormnted forever for not being "elect" (ridiculous aint it :o)

When we (disciples who are matured in UR) teach that there is an elect, we are saying that God is raising up children into sons who will be as priests, shepherds and ministers of reconciliation to "the all" in the ages to come.

[SevanthDay]

Hello eagleway:

Excellent and concise explanation of the purpose for the elect and the fact that it is some chosen out of many for God glorious task of reconciliation.

One thing you have mentioned that might need further explaining  is "God is raising up children into sons who will be as priests, shepherds and ministers of reconciliation to "the all" in the ages to come." Does that include ministering and purifying the church who are will be part of the elect bride after the great throne judgement and the bride is made ready? Please comment on that as well as bringing others into the body of Christ with the church in the millennium and into the ages. I look at the elect as both "the headship company of sons or bridegroom company of sons" and the future elect as the "Bride of Christ". Also, there is an election that is implied "the children of the bride" after the marriage of the Lamb who also will be coming into the church when the Spirit and the Bride call them in.

God bless you,

SeventhDay

Another onewould be number 3) The elect is limited to some.

Complex because "at present" the elect is limited to some. That is what makes them "elect". If all were "elect" the word would hav no meaning.

All wll eventually be reconciled to God but in this present age when we speak of the "elect" we are speaking of those, who according to the foreknowledge of God are elected, called and chosen to participate in the ministry of reconciliation.

The rest will be reconciled in the ages to come(IMO).

As I see it this teaching is obscured by the false idea that the "elect" go to heaven forever and the rest go to hel forever. That there IS an elect is no longer a threat once we realize that what they are elected to is filling up the sufferings of Christ in bringing all the adversaries to reconciliation. "If we suffer with Him we will also be glorified with Him." "No greater love has any man than to lay down his life for his friends."

IMO, The meaning of the word elect, means "selected by grace from among the all." It is only because the "church system" teaches tht the "non-elct" will be tormented forever that anyome objects to the idea of "the elect" as not being all(again, IMO).

Once we see the elect as those chsen to fulfill the work begun in Yeshus the Anointed One- it is no longer offensive :o).

When the Babylonian church teaches that there are "elect" it teaches that the rest will be tormnted forever for not being "elect" (ridiculous aint it :o)

When we (disciples who are matured in UR) teach that there is an elect, we are saying that God is raising up children into sons who will be as priests, shepherds and ministers of reconciliation to "the all" in the ages to come.

[SevanthDay]

Hello eaglesway:


Quite a list of absolute statements. Maybe putting forth such a comprehensive list is in itself confounding, since so many of them are open to so much interpretation. The idea that all of them are truisms is in itself maybe, IMO, a lil presumptuous. All of them have been discussed at length among the believers on the forum, so where would one begin?

That the church system is teaching many errors almost anyone in the UR belief would I think agree. However, what those errors are in particular outside of the truth of the salvation of all are mostly all matters of disputation and discussion among UR believers.

Setting these statements as foundational points for discussion implies that that are all true. IMO some of them are and some of them arent, as you said- "You may not agree that these are all errors...."

Number 29 for instance.

I believe both are true. Ther is a war between God and Satan. God started it and He will finish it. The word "adversary" implies conflict, as does the exhortation to "put on the full armor of God". There is also a war between the carnal mind and the renewed/spiritual mind, which is the mind of Christ (Behold I am making all things new, be renewed in the spirit of your mind), It is aluded to in many places, such as Romans 7....1 Corinthians chapts.2&3; and others. I also believ God is completely in control of this war- on both levels, and that He is teaching us His ways thru both conflicts. " Our weapons are not natural, but mighty through God for the pulling down of towers and strongholds that exalt themselves against the true knowledge of God."

The true knowledge of God, IMO, is how to walk in His ways, which is participating in the divine nature, loving everyone, forgiving our enemies, etc.

30 issues to discuss, whew :o)

I think the organized church is Babylon, "confusion by mixture". Most of what she teaches is error based in "extremes of truth"- polarizing positional perspectives on paradoxical paradigms  :o)


That is quite a perplexing statement: "polarizing positional perspectives on paradoxical paradigms"


Please explain this war with God and Satan. God made Satan  the adversary that he is but he is not the only adversary. God can be one too and he can use many others. God created the "waster to destroy" "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." Isaiah 45:7 Satan was a liar and murder from the beginning: "For you are the children of your father the devil, and you love to do the evil things he does. He was a murderer from the beginning. He has always hated the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, it is consistent with his character; for he is a liar and the father of lies." John 8:44

God bless you,

SeventhhDay

[eaglesway]

Yes, I believe that God created the waster. I believe God set the "war"- i prefer conflict, in motion and foreknew every possible outcome and saw each actuall outcome before hand- determining beforehand as a STARTING POINT- that the sacrifice of Christ would cause every conflict to resolve eventually into forgiveness and submission to the perfect law of liberty, LOVE.

I do not believe God created evil, persay. "God does no evil and cannot be tempted with evil". Evil is the product- STRICTLY(in my opinion, of course) of the unenlightened wills of His created beings. "I CREATE EVIL, imo, ought to be translated as follows, "I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and I create CHAOS"

God creates chaos. Everything begins there. What is CHAOS? This is a deeper question than I could express my limited view on here, but let it suffice to say that CHAOS is where God begins ALL CREATION.

In the beginning the earth was without form and void(chaos) and the Spirit hovered over the waters, then God spoke "Let there be light" and the light separated(was formed) out of the darkness and it was good.

So it is with MANKIND as a whole, and so it is with every person- this is just my opinion/perspective/paradigm, of course.

"For God who has said, 'Let light shine out of darkness'  made His light shine in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.

I do not wish to debate this, or the fundamental difference between my paradigm of faith and yours......but I will say this. Your 30 points express a particular systematic theology which may or may not be entirely correct - as a reflection of the "Light of the Knowledge of the Glory of God in the Face of Christ" which is the "true knowledge of God", based in "His ways" and His character and divine nature" and our transformation into it. "For every one whom He foreknew He also predestined that they be conformed to the image of Christ" "Christ the image of God"- "For He is the radiance of the Father's glory and the exact representation of His nature".

We begin in chaos, we end in peace. He is creating still- finishing it by gathering it into one in Christ, the Alpha and Omega, the Sabbaoth rest.

IMO
The fundamental difference between Babylon(organized institutional churches) and Zion(the tabenacle of God Heb 12) is not their "incorrect points of doctrine" so much as it is that they see relationship wth God as a "primarily doctrinal issue" in the first place- where as the true ecclesia of God- wherever it is scattered, sees the kingdom of God in terms of relationship, walking in fellowship with one another in Christ and walking in "His way"- being conformed to the image of Christ within the character/inner man.

God set the stage upon which we are working all this out and learning His ways- the end of it all is that He will be all in all because every knee will bow and every soul will enter into the perfect law of liberty, which is love, which is the character of God.


For me this is a willing submission and embracing of the light of love that will bring every being in the univers into harmony with God byt he lessons they have learned upon His GREAT STAGE, "an administration deisigned to be accomplished through the completion of times, the gathering into one of all things in Christ"(Eph1:9-11, my transliteration)

This is the GOOD NEWS- regardless of where we stand in relation to various paradigms of theological systems. IMO most of thos are BASED ON ASSUMPTIONS that God sees a thing EXACTLY like I do- when usually HE does not and I am actually just glimpsing a tiny facet of the GLORIOUS DIADEM OF HIS WISDOM and placing it in opposition to another facet.

Truth is none of us have the breadth of perspective to be so absolute about what we know beyond this.

God who said, "Let Light shine out darkness" has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.

:o) Peace.

[SevanthDay]

Hello eaglesway:

An other excellent well articulated  post! There is not much that I can dispute with your point of view.

Yes, I believe that God created the waster. I believe God set the "war"- i prefer conflict, in motion and foreknew every possible outcome and saw each actuall outcome before hand- determining beforehand as a STARTING POINT- that the sacrifice of Christ would cause every conflict to resolve eventually into forgiveness and submission to the perfect law of liberty, LOVE.

You are not too clear here on what this war is

I do not believe God created evil, persay. "God does no evil and cannot be tempted with evil". Evil is the product- STRICTLY(in my opinion, of course) of the unenlightened wills of His created beings. "I CREATE EVIL, imo, ought to be translated as follows, "I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and I create CHAOS".

Let us leave this for another time.

God creates chaos. Everything begins there. What is CHAOS? This is a deeper question than I could express my limited view on here, but let it suffice to say that CHAOS is where God begins ALL CREATION.

I agree and have meditated on Genesis and the first few verse on this wondrous theme.

In the beginning the earth was without form and void(chaos) and the Spirit hovered over the waters, then God spoke "Let there be light" and the light separated(was formed) out of the darkness and it was good.

Yes, The apostle John refers to this in his prologue in the Gospel of John chapter one and gives spiritual significance to the heart and mind of man and his darkened condition. John talk about the light that came into the world referring to Jesus Christ and the world knew him not.

So it is with MANKIND as a whole, and so it is with every person- this is just my opinion/perspective/paradigm, of course.

Agree!

"For God who has said, 'Let light shine out of darkness'  made His light shine in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.

Agree!

I do not wish to debate this, or the fundamental difference between my paradigm of faith and yours......but I will say this. Your 30 points express a particular systematic theology which may or may not be entirely correct - as a reflection of the "Light of the Knowledge of the Glory of God in the Face of Christ" which is the "true knowledge of God", based in "His ways" and His character and divine nature" and our transformation into it. "For every one whom He foreknew He also predestined that they be conformed to the image of Christ" "Christ the image of God"- "For He is the radiance of the Father's glory and the exact representation of His nature".

No, the thirty points are just something to consider and maybe needs to be rephrased. It is one's walk in a faithful relationship with Christ that matter. The more time we spend in communion with God is what matters and it is the members of the body serving Christ corporately and individually that matters. We are all dependent on one another through the head which is Jesus Christ. Yes, Christ is the express image of God, Jesus, the head with its body of called out ones that must come to maturity and it is a growing and expanding body.

We begin in chaos, we end in peace. He is creating still- finishing it by gathering it into one in Christ, the Alpha and Omega, the Sabbaoth rest.

We are on the same page here, brother! God is creating all of humanity in his express image!

The fundamental difference between Babylon(organized institutional churches) and Zion(the tabenacle of God Heb 12) is not their "incorrect points of doctrine" so much as it is that they see relationship wth God as a "primarily doctrinal issue" in the first place- where as the true ecclesia of God- wherever it is scattered, sees the kingdom of God in terms of relationship, walking in fellowship with one another in Christ and walking in "His way"- being conformed to the image of Christ within the character/inner man.

Very true! It is a reciprocal spiritual relationship in our walk with Christ through fellowship with the Spirit and the members of the body through the head, Jesus Christ who is the first born of creation, the Alpha and the Omega,

God set the stage upon which we are working all this out and learning His ways- the end of it all is that He will be all in all because every knee will bow and every soul will enter into the perfect law of liberty, which is love, which is the character of God.

Glory be to God for his marvelous character, his attributes and for all his wonderful works. All that God has purposed he is accomplishing. All creation will praise God for his wondrous works! It is wonderful to learn of God's ways and that God delight to reveal himself to us.   "because in him were the all things created, those in the heavens, and those upon the earth, those visible, and those invisible, whether thrones, whether lordships, whether principalities, whether authorities; all things through him, and for him, have been created, and himself is before all, and the all things in him have consisted. And himself is the head of the body--the assembly--who is a beginning, a first-born out of the dead, that he might become in all things --himself--first, because in him it did please all the fulness to tabernacle,  and through him to reconcile the all things to himself--having made peace through the blood of his cross--through him, whether the things upon the earth, whether the things in the heavens." Col 1:16-20

For me this is a willing submission and embracing of the light of love that will bring every being in the univers into harmony with God byt he lessons they have learned upon His GREAT STAGE, "an administration deisigned to be accomplished through the completion of times, the gathering into one of all things in Christ"(Eph1:9-11, my transliteration)

Amen and Amen!

This is the GOOD NEWS- regardless of where we stand in relation to various paradigms of theological systems. IMO most of thos are BASED ON ASSUMPTIONS that God sees a thing EXACTLY like I do- when usually HE does not and I am actually just glimpsing a tiny facet of the GLORIOUS DIADEM OF HIS WISDOM and placing it in opposition to another facet.

Truth is none of us have the breadth of perspective to be so absolute about what we know beyond this.

God who said, "Let Light shine out darkness" has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.


Amen! "For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known" 1 Corinthians 13:12

Thanks for all your encouraging input and your devotion and love for God.

God bless you,

SeventhDay

[bluemayskye]

#1 is false. It is limited to all creation. Otherwise, you are on track!

Oh, and apparently someone already clarified the "limited elect #3" so that was the only one that stood out.

I suppose if our goal is to help hell believing Christians understand the truth we should all ask which one should be debunked first.

[eaglesway]

Well, I am always glad to find that perhaps I hav misjudged the distance between myself and another believer in terms of what we see ;o)

In clarifying the conflict and how I see it. I believe in an actual abversary, the devil Satan, the adversary, etc. I also believe that our own flesh/carnal mind is our greater adversary.

Satan, and the principalities and powers of darkness and the hosts of wickedness in the heavenly realms are to me, prmarily a huge propaganda machine trying to create a reality out of their imaginations and the force of their self-love and rebellion.

If anyone does not believe our gospel it is because the god of this word has blinded(veiled) their eyes so that they may not see the light of the gospel of the glory of God in the face of Christ.

IMO, the worst of these are "Christians" who so misrepresent the heart of God as to cause "the way to be evil spoken of" > Babylon, the "Head of Gold, the doctrine of the Nicolaitains(nico-dominate/rule- laity- the people), "

Towers and strongholds that exalt themselves against the true knowledge of God are like radio towers where the god of this world proclaims his confusion and lies out into the world in order to "blind the eyes" of mankind to "the light of the gospel of the glory of God in the face of Christ".

They are frequently denominations and organizations using the gospel t promote their own "man-themed" views of judgment, condemnation, enticement to riches, disrespecting the poor and the wounded and the crippled. etc.

To me, the ecclesia of God is the opposite, a city set on a hill, the heavenly Jerusalem exalted upon Zion- a greater and more beificent radio tower declaring the "Glad tidings of good will to all people".

IMO and here is where I think we may differ- I think chaos is all about free will. I see God as having set loose a hurricane of freedom arising as chaos for the purpose of teaching, eventually drawing all into harmony with himself through the "lesson"- Christ crucified- "If I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me"- "I am determined to kno nothing among you but Christ and Him crucified"

So, altho I believe God knows all things and is intimately involved with all things- I do not believe He controls evrything as such. He has place limits upon chaos- but they are VERY LOOSE LIMITS- as we see by the degree of misery He allows us to perpetrate upon one another.

So I see the "war", or the "conflict" as this. God through Christ, and all who emulate/transmit/ are transformed into Christ- is winning all who are blinded/veiled by the god of this world because of their AGREEMENT WITH HIM in the pride of the eyes and pride of life and the lust of the flesh- through the superior testimony of a city set on a hill, a serpent raised upon a stick, a lamp set high upon the lampstand.

It is not that I do not believe God is in control- I do believe He is. I just believe His way is like the wind, His way is higher than ours. He kknows the end from the beginning and He knows that the overall beuaty of the jewel at the center of CHAOS(light shall shine out of darkness:o) will draw all things into union with Him.

That as each being that He has created and released into chaos SEES THE LIGHT OF THE GLORY OF GOD IN THE FACE OF CHRIST they will bow the knee and confess joyfully with the tongue, "Jesus is Lord!" giving glory to God the Father Creator for His wisdom and love.

The Father knows that EVERY SINGLE ONE will eventually "see the light".....have "the veil rent".......enter the gathering(Eph1:9-11) until God is all in all- for from Him and through Him and to Him are all things to whom be the glory through all the ages!

But not because He made it happen controlling iota by iota- but is rather because of the superior testimony and overwhelming beauty of the love expressed in the death burial and resurrection of Christ.

This testimony is the fire/light that consumes chaos/darkness until every hidden thing is brought to light and all becomes light and God is all in all.

If any of that makes any sense, it is just my personal perspective on it- I hav expressed it before to howls and catcalls so I dont want anybody to get upset, I am not trying to convince anyone..... I am just presenting my view so as we hav discourse you in particular 7thDay, will kno where I am coming from..... Peace, John

[ded2daworld]

I didn't see it mentioned but # "5) that a person must believe in Jesus to be saved" I believe is true. The difference is most of Christianity believes a person must believe in Jesus BEFORE ONE DIES.
"Death cannot seperate us from the Love of God" The Belief one must have is not the belief of the demons, (that he exists) but that Jesus is our redeemer and atonement. :Peace2:

[lastpost]

25) Teach that man can thwart God's will

In my opinion man can oppose God's Will which will only bring harm to himself because God's laws are laws of correction but God's Will is always being done and His plans shall come to fruition in spite of man's capacity to evil.

[SevanthDay]

Hello lastpost: 


25) Teach that man can thwart God's will

In my opinion man can oppose God's Will which will only bring harm to himself because God's laws are laws of correction but God's Will is always being done and His plans shall come to fruition in spite of man's capacity to evil.


One thing about exposing errors in the organized church system is exposing one's own errors such as error#25: That was perhaps phrased badly but we can still deal with it which you have done quite well. Thank you! Man going against God's will is part of God's plan or he would not allow it but like you say by doing it one reaps their own condemnation! Yes, God's will is always being done.

God bless you,

SeventhDay

[SevanthDay]

Hello ded2daworld:

I didn't see it mentioned but # "5) that a person must believe in Jesus to be saved" I believe is true. The difference is most of Christianity believes a person must believe in Jesus BEFORE ONE DIES.
"Death cannot seperate us from the Love of God" The Belief one must have is not the belief of the demons, (that he exists) but that Jesus is our redeemer and atonement. :Peace2:

I understand we are taught that to believe in Jesus or we are not saved but is not it the other way around if you think about it? Jesus has saved the sinner so the sinner should repent and believe is the way that it ought to be taught. Jesus is our Savior, not because we believe in him, but because he has atoned for us. It is the spiritual outworking of the atonement that draws one to Christ and it the faith of God working in the believer that causes the believer to repent and choose to believe in Jesus as Lord and Savior. However, the fact is that Jesus is Savior which means that it is his work to save us. It is contingent on Jesus to save us. It is the ones who God has called, and who has given the sinner a believing faith to choose him, realize that Jesus has saved them. The fact that they are believing in him is proof of that, but on the other hand God has saved the sinner who is not yet believing Jesus who is their Savior, but he still is, nevertheless. They may not believe that but I do and I am not going to say to a sinner that Jesus is not their Savior because they are not believing in him. I believe that he is whether the sinner believes that or not! Also, It shows no faith in God on my part to say that Jesus is not their Savior just because their not believing in him or I am as faithless as the sinner who is not believing. God saving us is not conditioned on our faith or it is man's work and not God's work. The fact is that because Jesus is the Savior of the world that God will faithfully draw all to him at God's appointed times and regenerate their heart and  God's faith will work through them to believe in him. Man believing in God does not save him! Jesus has saved man and man needs to know that and believe that and God will see to it that the sinner does.

I understand what scriptures teach about believing in Jesus as Lord and Savior as the most important decision a man can make but it is because Jesus is their Lord and Savior that they can choose to believe which is a result of the atoning work of Jesus outworked and administered by the Holy Spirit.

God bless you,

SeventhDay

[SevanthDay]

Hello eaglesway:

There are two areas that we may want to discuss that is perhaps well suited to a couple of opening posts and that is freewill and Satan and it is not that I agree or do not agree with you in these two areas but that there is much to draw from one another on how we understand this and also there is much more to understand. If you would like to start a new OP on these two topics I would be glad to discuss these topics. I am sure these topics come up a lot but I would appreciate it.

Also, I find that the way that you look at God's character, attributes and his purposes very similar to my views but I am sure that there is much more that we both can contribute.

I look forward to many discussions with you if you are favorable to that.

God bless you,

SeventhDay

Well, I am always glad to find that perhaps I hav misjudged the distance between myself and another believer in terms of what we see ;o)

In clarifying the conflict and how I see it. I believe in an actual abversary, the devil Satan, the adversary, etc. I also believe that our own flesh/carnal mind is our greater adversary.

Satan, and the principalities and powers of darkness and the hosts of wickedness in the heavenly realms are to me, prmarily a huge propaganda machine trying to create a reality out of their imaginations and the force of their self-love and rebellion.

If anyone does not believe our gospel it is because the god of this word has blinded(veiled) their eyes so that they may not see the light of the gospel of the glory of God in the face of Christ.

IMO, the worst of these are "Christians" who so misrepresent the heart of God as to cause "the way to be evil spoken of" > Babylon, the "Head of Gold, the doctrine of the Nicolaitains(nico-dominate/rule- laity- the people), "

Towers and strongholds that exalt themselves against the true knowledge of God are like radio towers where the god of this world proclaims his confusion and lies out into the world in order to "blind the eyes" of mankind to "the light of the gospel of the glory of God in the face of Christ".

They are frequently denominations and organizations using the gospel t promote their own "man-themed" views of judgment, condemnation, enticement to riches, disrespecting the poor and the wounded and the crippled. etc.

To me, the ecclesia of God is the opposite, a city set on a hill, the heavenly Jerusalem exalted upon Zion- a greater and more beificent radio tower declaring the "Glad tidings of good will to all people".

IMO and here is where I think we may differ- I think chaos is all about free will. I see God as having set loose a hurricane of freedom arising as chaos for the purpose of teaching, eventually drawing all into harmony with himself through the "lesson"- Christ crucified- "If I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me"- "I am determined to kno nothing among you but Christ and Him crucified"

So, altho I believe God knows all things and is intimately involved with all things- I do not believe He controls evrything as such. He has place limits upon chaos- but they are VERY LOOSE LIMITS- as we see by the degree of misery He allows us to perpetrate upon one another.

So I see the "war", or the "conflict" as this. God through Christ, and all who emulate/transmit/ are transformed into Christ- is winning all who are blinded/veiled by the god of this world because of their AGREEMENT WITH HIM in the pride of the eyes and pride of life and the lust of the flesh- through the superior testimony of a city set on a hill, a serpent raised upon a stick, a lamp set high upon the lampstand.

It is not that I do not believe God is in control- I do believe He is. I just believe His way is like the wind, His way is higher than ours. He kknows the end from the beginning and He knows that the overall beuaty of the jewel at the center of CHAOS(light shall shine out of darkness:o) will draw all things into union with Him.

That as each being that He has created and released into chaos SEES THE LIGHT OF THE GLORY OF GOD IN THE FACE OF CHRIST they will bow the knee and confess joyfully with the tongue, "Jesus is Lord!" giving glory to God the Father Creator for His wisdom and love.

The Father knows that EVERY SINGLE ONE will eventually "see the light".....have "the veil rent".......enter the gathering(Eph1:9-11) until God is all in all- for from Him and through Him and to Him are all things to whom be the glory through all the ages!

But not because He made it happen controlling iota by iota- but is rather because of the superior testimony and overwhelming beauty of the love expressed in the death burial and resurrection of Christ.

This testimony is the fire/light that consumes chaos/darkness until every hidden thing is brought to light and all becomes light and God is all in all.

If any of that makes any sense, it is just my personal perspective on it- I hav expressed it before to howls and catcalls so I dont want anybody to get upset, I am not trying to convince anyone..... I am just presenting my view so as we hav discourse you in particular 7thDay, will kno where I am coming from..... Peace, John

[SevanthDay]

Hello bluemayskye:

Good to hear from you on this Forum!


#1 is false. It is limited to all creation. Otherwise, you are on track!

Oh, and apparently someone already clarified the "limited elect #3" so that was the only one that stood out.

I suppose if our goal is to help hell believing Christians understand the truth we should all ask which one should be debunked first.


Please give an explanation for #1 if you would please. I would be grateful for your input.

#3 has been clarified quite well I believed. The poster did a good job.

I believe that the error that has to be debunked first is that we have to believe in Jesus Christ in order for Jesus to save us. I know that to many that may seem like blasphemy but I just do not think that Jesus save us as a result of our faith but that it is the other way around. Jesus saves us which is a result of Jesus atonement and the outworking of that the Holy Spirit wherein God's faith works in us so that we can choose to believe that Jesus is our Lord and Deliverer. God saving man is God's work and man believing in Jesus as Lord and Savior is God's work as well. Man can do nothing by himself to effect God's salvation.

God bless you,

SeventhDay

[jabcat]

I didn't see it mentioned but # "5) that a person must believe in Jesus to be saved" I believe is true. The difference is most of Christianity believes a person must believe in Jesus BEFORE ONE DIES.

:thumbsup:  Agreed.  (I also believe there are several others on the list the church doesn't across-the-board teach that way, and then others on the list, that if they do, they're not in error. Too big of a list for me to tackle in detail right now.

On this one though, I do believe the scriptures are very clear that one must believe on Jesus as Savior to be saved.  But I also believe that faith is given by God, it is actually His faith imparted to each according to God's plan and timing, the free gift.  Nothing we can do in and of ourselves.  All based on what Jesus did on the cross, and His bringing it to each one through the Holy Spirit at God's appointed time.  It's a miracle.  Birth isn't ho-hum, neither is new birth.  I believe it must be a personal experience ("every knee will bow, every tongue confess"), not a "universal salvation" that just has to be "realized", nor as I've recently seen someone say, "we need to realize who we are in Christ".  Maybe somewhat, to some degree, and at some point (aka, maturing/"growing in grace and knowledge").  But I believe it's mostly God giving us faith and grace to realize Who HE is.  I believe it's the spiritual new birth, that begins the journey into His likeness.  The elect/predestined in this age, all the rest destined in the next age(s).

[eaglesway]

Hello ded2daworld:

I didn't see it mentioned but # "5) that a person must believe in Jesus to be saved" I believe is true. The difference is most of Christianity believes a person must believe in Jesus BEFORE ONE DIES.
"Death cannot seperate us from the Love of God" The Belief one must have is not the belief of the demons, (that he exists) but that Jesus is our redeemer and atonement. :Peace2:

I understand we are taught that to believe in Jesus or we are not saved but is not it the other way around if you think about it? Jesus has saved the sinner so the sinner should repent and believe is the way that it ought to be taught. Jesus is our Savior, not because we believe in him, but because he has atoned for us. It is the spiritual outworking of the atonement that draws one to Christ and it the faith of God working in the believer that causes the believer to repent and choose to believe in Jesus as Lord and Savior. However, the fact is that Jesus is Savior which means that it is his work to save us. It is contingent on Jesus to save us. It is the ones who God has called, and who has given the sinner a believing faith to choose him, realize that Jesus has saved them. The fact that they are believing in him is proof of that, but on the other hand God has saved the sinner who is not yet believing Jesus who is their Savior, but he still is, nevertheless. They may not believe that but I do and I am not going to say to a sinner that Jesus is not their Savior because they are not believing in him. I believe that he is whether the sinner believes that or not! Also, It shows no faith in God on my part to say that Jesus is not their Savior just because their not believing in him or I am as faithless as the sinner who is not believing. God saving us is not conditioned on our faith or it is man's work and not God's work. The fact is that because Jesus is the Savior of the world that God will faithfully draw all to him at God's appointed times and regenerate their heart and  God's faith will work through them to believe in him. Man believing in God does not save him! Jesus has saved man and man needs to know that and believe that and God will see to it that the sinner does.

I understand what scriptures teach about believing in Jesus as Lord and Savior as the most important decision a man can make but it is because Jesus is their Lord and Savior that they can choose to believe which is a result of the atoning work of Jesus outworked and administered by the Holy Spirit.

God bless you,

SeventhDay

Actually you are treading a fine line there 7thDay. I understand that the atonement is for all sin for all time- but the deliverance is not accomplished for anyone until it is received. That is by grace through faith which is the gift of God, not of works lest anyman should boast.

It is interesting, but I believe these three statements are true,

1)"Provision has been made for the salvation of all".

2)"Eventually all will be drawn into salvation in Jesus Christ"

3) "As yet there are many who have not been saved"(sozo:healded/delivered/saved)

Peter proclaimed, "Be saved from this perverse generation". We are delivered out of Adam under law and death into Jesus Christ under grace and life.

Therefore whatever we believe about times and methods and dispensations and ages- Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.

[rosered]

23)     
an old friend of mine  WW  ,  noticed this  and shared it with me
thought its a great point  :friendstu:


Satan claimed Job was only good because he was never truly tested. It was also mentioned there was a protective hedge around Job's house. When God gave satan the authority to test Job He removed the hedge. So God caused evil by no longer protecting.

Well  theold hebrew  letter did not transfer  :sigh:

That's the old spelling for mankind.
The letter in the middle actually looked like a hand at the time Moses live.
(Modern Hebrew letters are invented by Ezra)
Remove that letter/hand.
The word you have now is Hebrew for fire.
So God's hand removed = fire
Fire = law = judgment.

[sheila]

very interesting Rose....by MY SPIRIT...thinking of the upraised arm in battle nd victory over enemies

  Exodus 6;6  I will free you from being slaves to them with out-stretched arm and with mighty acts of judgement

  I will take you as my own people and I will be your God.  SOS 8;6  Isaih 59;6  Ps 44;3   John 12'37-38

   even after Jesus had done all these miracles/signs in their prescence,they did not beleive in him,

   This ws to fulfill the word of Isaaih the prophet, 'LORD,WHO HAS BELEIVED OUR MESSAGE,AND

  TO WHOM HAS THE ARM OF THE LORD BEEN REVEALED?"

   of course the battle is won ande victory obtained ythrough Jesus Christ who as the arm[right hand of God]

  OF GOD SAVES FROM JUDGEMENT/WRATH..delivers from evil

[rosered]

 

  Thanks Shelia !     great thoughts sis !
  Yes WW says that is Gods Firey Law that judges all ,


I believe that is how he put it ?

For me I can see that thoughout the Word of God =the Fiery Law 
  its either in favor or  though the testing  of going though  it

Good stuff ! :dsunny:

[jbertonbounds]

It was just such a list that got me to questioning the whole of the doctrine I was taught all my life.  I began making a mental list of the things other protestants believe that I knew were incorrect.  Then as the list grew longer and longer, I realized that I must throw it all out - all the religion, all the old doctrine, everything I "knew" about God and the Bible - and START OVER - Just me and the Word, and let the Spirit teach me from "scratch."  That was the beginning of God's enlightening me to UR. :dsunny:

[sheila]

same here,jb.       I came to realize all my 'righteous works' were for nada...a complete wipe-out

  of everything preceding Hiscalling me out. That I did not understand  at all. had to start from 'scratch" and

let Him teach me.

     I knew He was approaching and that I was a 'spiritual wipe-out/failure" and didn't know how I was going

to face Him[ashamed at His appearing] for I had not seen Him face to face for 30 years when He annointed me

  what I did..was read the red letter word's directly from Him..and do them....and then..through a vision

  I was following behind Him..and He turned around and invited me to 'sit with Him"

   I recommend..that any of you,that ever lose your way and become confused..do this..take His words..

red letters in scripture keep them and apply them..and suddenly He shall come to His temple......

       

[rosered]

It was just such a list that got me to questioning the whole of the doctrine I was taught all my life.  I began making a mental list of the things other protestants believe that I knew were incorrect.  Then as the list grew longer and longer, I realized that I must throw it all out - all the religion, all the old doctrine, everything I "knew" about God and the Bible - and START OVER - Just me and the Word, and let the Spirit teach me from "scratch."  That was the beginning of God's enlightening me to UR. :dsunny:

Yes I do believe that is what a new heavens and earth mean   to me  anyways
the old heavens and eath are of Babylon , the queen of heaven , idolratry   and not meek , but full of self /dead works and spiritual pride
   the new heavens [mind of Christ ,   in the Fathers will ]
  and new earth  , its tilled and  ready  to recieve the seed / Word of God by His Spirit teaching us Himself      by  the meek inheriting the new eath / Body of Christ

good  thoughts sis Shelia !! 

[Lazarus Short]

23)     
an old friend of mine  WW  ,  noticed this  and shared it with me
thought its a great point  :friendstu:


Satan claimed Job was only good because he was never truly tested. It was also mentioned there was a protective hedge around Job's house. When God gave satan the authority to test Job He removed the hedge. So God caused evil by no longer protecting.

Well  theold hebrew  letter did not transfer  :sigh:

That's the old spelling for mankind.
The letter in the middle actually looked like a hand at the time Moses live.
(Modern Hebrew letters are invented by Ezra)
Remove that letter/hand.
The word you have now is Hebrew for fire.
So God's hand removed = fire
Fire = law = judgment.

Rosered, that is very interesting, but what word is it that becomes "fire" when the letter YOD [hand] is removed?  Your post does not make it entirely clear.

[SevanthDay]

Hello ded2daworld:

I didn't see it mentioned but # "5) that a person must believe in Jesus to be saved" I believe is true. The difference is most of Christianity believes a person must believe in Jesus BEFORE ONE DIES.
"Death cannot seperate us from the Love of God" The Belief one must have is not the belief of the demons, (that he exists) but that Jesus is our redeemer and atonement. :Peace2:

I understand we are taught that to believe in Jesus or we are not saved, but is not it the other way around if you think about it? Jesus has saved the sinner so the sinner should repent and believe, is the way that it ought to be taught. Jesus is our Savior, not because we believe in him, but because he has atoned for us. It is the spiritual outworking of the atonement that draws one to Christ, and it the faith of God working in the believer that causes the believer to repent and choose to believe in Jesus as Lord and Savior. However, the fact is that Jesus is Savior which means that it is his work to save us. It is contingent on Jesus to save us. It is the ones who God has called, and who has given the sinner a believing faith to choose him, realize that Jesus has saved them. The fact that they are believing in him is proof of that, but on the other hand God has saved the sinner who is not yet believing Jesus who is their Savior, but he still is, nevertheless. They may not believe that but I do and I am not going to say to a sinner that Jesus is not their Savior because they are not believing in him. I believe that he is whether the sinner believes that or not! Also, It shows no faith in God on my part to say that Jesus is not their Savior just because their not believing in him or I am as faithless as the sinner who is not believing. God saving us is not conditioned on our faith or it is man's work and not God's work. The fact is that because Jesus is the Savior of the world that God will faithfully draw all to him at God's appointed times and regenerate their heart and  God's faith will work through them to believe in him. Man believing in God does not save him! Jesus has saved man and man needs to know that and believe that and God will see to it that the sinner does.

I understand what scriptures teach about believing in Jesus as Lord and Savior as the most important decision a man can make but it is because Jesus is their Lord and Savior that they can choose to believe which is a result of the atoning work of Jesus outworked and administered by the Holy Spirit.

God bless you,

SeventhDay

Actually you are treading a fine line there 7thDay. I understand that the atonement is for all sin for all time- but the deliverance is not accomplished for anyone until it is received. That is by grace through faith which is the gift of God, not of works lest anyman should boast.

It is interesting, but I believe these three statements are true,

1)"Provision has been made for the salvation of all".

2)"Eventually all will be drawn into salvation in Jesus Christ"

3) "As yet there are many who have not been saved"(sozo:healded/delivered/saved)

Peter proclaimed, "Be saved from this perverse generation". We are delivered out of Adam under law and death into Jesus Christ under grace and life.

Therefore whatever we believe about times and methods and dispensations and ages- Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.

Hello eaglesway:

Yes, I understand the fine line and I agree that the process of deliverance or salvation is worked out by the outworking of the Holy Spirit by God's faith working in us moment by moment from the moment that we believe until all is accomplished. It is walked out through the faith given to us by God's grace as the Spirit guides us on to completion. However, the atonement is a finished work which is not based on faith at all and it is a done deal but the effects of it and its outworking is being outworked, and it is not limited to the present, past of future but is for all time. It is that through what Christ has done, one is accounted righteous or justified, and that is what the faith of God working on the sinner imparts based only on what Jesus has done.

From God's perspective he calls things that are not as things that are knowing the end from the beginning, and God is in man's timeline but also is in the now. Even the outworking of that atonement that Jesus wrought for us God sees as done but man through God is pressing by God's faith towards the finishing line coming into the Seventh Day of rest. "(As it is written, I have made you a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who gives life to the dead, and calls those things which are not as though they were." Romans 4:17

Thus, from God's perspective Jesus has saved all of humanity from their sinful nature, remitted their sins, freed them from the bondage of sin, released them from Satan's dominion, and has given humanity Jesus life which is spiritual life so that he is a new creation through Jesus resurrection, and humanity (the old Adam) is buried in Jesus death. From God's perspective it is a finished work but yet there is an orderly procession of the out working of it beginning with the promise God gave to Abraham that in his seed all the families of the earth would be blessed. There is a remnant or election of God's people that are participating with Christ through the Spirit of God to bring humanity into God's fullness when God will be all in hall.

Now, we have to look at both perspectives which is God's finished work and the ongoing work that mankind presently finds himself in. However, we ought to agree with what understanding we have, is that Jesus is our Savior and the Savior of the whole world not future but right now! Whether a sinner believes or not God is their Savior, now, not when he believes, and he will believe because Jesus is his Savior.

You say I thread a fine line but so does Christendom the way that they preach salvation. You choose how you want to share the good news. I will say to the sinner that Jesus is his Lord and Savior and he has saved him from his sins and sinful nature so believe in Jesus as your Lord and savior and walk in the freedom of Jesus saving you or you will still be in bondage to your sin.

To say to the sinner believe In Jesus as your Lord and Savior and he will save you from your sins makes it appear that Jesus as Lord and Savior is conditioned on a man's faith. Thus, we are saying it is a conditional atonement based upon man believing in Jesus, and it is a covenant of works, and not God saving man. However, the  atonement is unconditional in what Jesus has done and the outworking of it is unconditional as well. If Jesus is not doing the saving no one is saved! It is the outworking of Jesus atonement where by the Spirit of God changes the nature of the sinner through regeneration meaning that God has planted a spiritual seed. Man can not do that. It is the Spirit of God that nourishes that seed and brings it to birth. Man can not do that. It is the Holy Spirit working in the new man, the one who is being regenerated even before God' faith starts working in him a believing faith. The Spirit is spiritually convicting, spiritually opening the sinner's heart, ears, and working spiritually on the sinners attitude and spiritually drawing the sinner to him and producing spiritual repentance, spiritual faith and spiritual confession. All this is the unconditional outworking of the atonement through the auspices of the Holy Spirit. This has nothing to do with man's work at all including man believing that Jesus is Lord and Savior. It is all the work of the Holy Spirit commissioned by Jesus.

So you see God is doing the saving and the sinner is responding to what spiritual influences are pressed upon him and that includes man believing in Jesus as his Lord and Savior.

God bless you,

SeventhDay