Trinity Discussion, split from "Something I Just Read"

[Molly]

Well why don't you look up all those scriptures in the 50 things the Holy Spirit does and get back to me, Micah.

Because they show that the Holy Spirit is far more than a force, or God's power, or some impersonal aspect of God.

He is a Person.  And, once you see what He does for us, you might just agree.

[jabcat]

I can see why the trinity was a subject not allowed for discussion.

:hihat:

And this is mild as to what it would have been 3-4 years ago.     :eek:

[eaglesway]

You shall receive power after the Holy Spirit has come upon you....

that you may be strengthened with might by His Spirit in your inner man(Ephesians 3)

I am full of power by the spirit of the Lord to declare unto Jacob his transgressions(Micah 3:8)

and Jesus returned in the power of the spirit unto Galilee(Luke 4:14)

through mighty signs and wonders through the power of the Spirit of God (Romans 15:19)

Interesting thing about the word holy(hagios) It means separated unto God. That is what makes it holy. Holy ground is holy because it is separated from other ground by the presence of God. The Holy land is holy because it is separated by the purpose and presence of God. The holy people are holy because is God is present in them.

The Holy Spirit is a particular separation of God out of Himself , IMO, which bears His personality expressed through Jesus- as well as His power- this is only my opinion now, I am not trying to establish some new systematic theology. The only way to reconcile all the different refences to the spirit of God(SPirit of God/Holy Spirit/Spirit of Christ,etc) , imo, to realize that there are various ways of expressing the One spirit(Ephesians 4 tells us there is only one Spirit)- perhaps related to the many functions and manifestations of YHWH.

If e lock ourselves into grammatical specifics, attributing personge to all of these different expressions we create problems of logic that require the developement of complicated dispensations and theological systems.

For instance, it is written, "For the Holy Spirit was not yet given for Jesus had not yet been glorified".

Does this mean the Holy Spirit had not manifested yet? No.

The Spirit descended upon Jesus as a dove at His baptism. Was He now two persons? IMO, nly to the extent that "God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself".

1 Corinthians 8:6 explains this perspective for those of us who hold it. There is but ONE GOD THE FATHER, from whom are all things, and for whose service we exist, and one Lord Jesus Christ, by(through) whom are all things and we exist trhough Him.

Simple to me..... I see the verses in a different way than a Trinitarian does. Ok. So be it. God the Father is my(Jesus word's >) "One true invisible God". Jesus is my Lord, the only begotten Son-(Jesus words>) Who came out from the Father. This is a little more difficult to SEE in its specifics, because it precedes time, but for me, still in line with ONE GOD ONE SPIRIT because ALL THINGS ARE OF GOD for "FROM HIM AND THROUGH HIM AND TO HIM ARE ALL THINGS". A Trintarian doesnt see these verses in the same light I do. Thats OK for them.... it is not OK for me. The shema is "The Lord your God is ONE Lord."

A less agressive form of Modalism(than the oneness Pentecostals for instance) actually works for me, One God, One Lord, One Spirit, - first YHWH(from Him), then JESUS/Logos/Seed(through Him), then the Spirit(to Him)- for you were all baptized into One body by One Spirit.

Their is no conflict of logic there, as I see it- and no conflict of faith or verse.

Now Hebrews 12 makes sense...the general assembly of the firstborn registered in heaven, the spirits of righteous men made perfect. All surrounding the trhone n the holy City upon Zion- "That where I AM there you may BE ALSO. IMO,It is about the  BEING not abut the STRUCTURE.

The Spirit hovered over the waters- what spirit? The Spirit of God? Yes, of course, He is the source of all things.  The Spirit of Christ? Yes, of course, all things were created through Him. The Holy Spirit? Yes! When it says, "The Holy Spirit was not yet given because Jesus was not yet glorified", it doesnt mean there was never befor the holy Spirit, it simply means it was not yet given generally to men as it would be after Pentecost, baptizing them into the body of Christ.

Isaiah says of Israel in the wildernes "They rebelled agaisnt the Holy Spirit"

David says in Psalms, "Take not Thy Holy Spirit from me"

Ther are more, but why post them? A Trinitarian will see them differently from a binitarian or a unitarian or a modalist.

Peter says the word was spoken by, Holy men moved of God..... Paul says the word of God is God-breathed..... of Ballam the soothsayer God says(in Nummbers 22-24) "I put a word in his mouth". Did God speak through that donkey or the holy spirit or what? We could argue the specifics and become idiots of grammar and miss all the larger issues ;o)

But I can read all the scriptures Molly posts and it creates no schism in my paradigm.....such as it is at this point today, I have no need to avoid or re-explain any verses. And My God, and My Lord, and the Holy Spirit are still there, cheering me on, leading and helping me as I seek. :o)

If we look through a red glass all wee see looks red, tho we can see the forms of reality. if we look through a blue glass, the same.

I am just saying that I don't think any of us is looking through a completely clear glass in absolute clarity on this subject, and i am defending nothing more than the right to be honest with one another about how we see it without getting all bent out of shape :o)

[eaglesway]

I can see why the trinity was a subject not allowed for discussion.

:hihat:

And this is mild as to what it would have been 3-4 years ago.     :eek:

The fact that it is comparatively mild is the only reason we are still discussing it :o)

[micah7:9]

 :sigh: Molly in your quest to rally a trinity base, I believe you have fallen short. Look back on the posts on this thread. You have stated that you had no religious influence in your Bible beliefs, I can believe that, you have given me much(now you know). The water to wine and the wine to blood is a great spiritual insight[and I know you got that from the Holy Spirit.]
So, if you had no religious teaching, how(I think I asked this before) did you get phrases like 3 persons in 1, and where did you hear the hymn with "blessed trinity?" I know you got neither from the Bible, so where did it come from? Should you received it from the Holy Spirit, why is there no explicit, plain speak of such in the Bible? :HeartThrob:


"And this is mild as to what it would have been 3-4 years ago."

Well then I really believe that Gary should have made a truthful stance as to whether the Bible teaches such a thing as a 3 persons in 1 blessed trinity, or The Lord is One. Then there would be no one attempting to prove or discuss either one.  As it stands the discussion may go on like a dog chasing it's tail or a  biblical circus. Moderators?

Let me say EW, you are on to something if it were not for there is no biblical verse, outside of religious interpretation, that the Bible speaks of any 3 persons in 1 or a trinity or blessed trinity. But it very clearly stated that the Lord is One, and ads no other person within that One. And no where does the Bible state that the Holy Spirit is a person.

I am somewhat amazed that I have been found mild. :dsunny:

[eaglesway]

Another interesting point about the Holy Spirit. The angel says to Joseph, "Do not be afraid to take Mary for your wife for the child that is in her is of the Holy Spirit."

Hmmm, WHo is Jesus' Father? Is the Father the father or is the Holy Spirit the father of is the Holy Spirit the Father or is the Father the Holy Spirit?

And if you can blaspheme the Son but you cannot blaspheme the Holy SPirit is the Holy Spirit not Jesus? And if the Holy Spirt is the Father then does anyone who shakes their fist at God and blasphemes Him beyond salvation in this age or the one to come? Yikes!

I am being facetious but there are some simple logical conundrums in those questions that I love because they just dont lay down and die for some religious catechism..... and when I am asked them, I am not going to say, "Put your common sense aside and just bellieve it".... or, "Those are unholy questions don't ask them" - because that is exactly how people used to speak to me when I asked them, "Is everyone who never heard of Jesu going to hell forever?" Or, "Why would God create a plan and foreordain that the great majority of His creation would be in torment forever". It just didnt make sense to me :o)

[Molly]

Isaiah says of Israel in the wildernes "They rebelled agaisnt the Holy Spirit"

David says in Psalms, "Take not Thy Holy Spirit from me"

These two together are interesting, eaglesway.   How can we make them go together unless the Spirit is a person.

How did they rebel against the Spirit in the wilderness?  They did not have the Spirit as we do, only a very few like David had the Holy Spirit.

So how could they rebel against something they did not have?

But, God in the Old Testament says, they rebelled against me.

So that would lead one to conclude the Holy Spirit is God.


But then David says to God, Don't take your Spirit away from me.

That would lead one to believe that the Spirit is under the control of God.

So if the Spirit is God and under the control of God--
The only way to logically make sense of these two facts, imo, is if there are two Gods.

[micah7:9]

Exo_20:3  Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

[jabcat]

Well then I really believe that Gary should have made a truthful stance as to whether the Bible teaches such a thing as a 3 persons in 1 blessed trinity, or The Lord is One.

I think he's more interested in the Godheart. :)

[eaglesway]

I understand that argument Molly :o)

I just dont believe the Holy Spirit is a separate co-equal person. if the I AM is an ocean of water. Jesus is the fountain head through which the fountain of His(the one true invisible God)Spirit springs forth a fountain - the Spirit of Christ, the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God- all the same water which is the I AM who is becoming ALL IN ALL.

I am not trying to convince you, I am just trying to explain how I see it, in brief- without writing my book about it here on Tentmaker LOLOL

[micah7:9]

Well then I really believe that Gary should have made a truthful stance as to whether the Bible teaches such a thing as a 3 persons in 1 blessed trinity, or The Lord is One.

I think he's more interested in the Godheart. :)

Please with no disrespect or offense what does that mean the Godheart? And how does that justify excluding a discussion of the trinity, as a sound doctrine that is not taught in the Bible. For me the Godheart is what the Lord has offered to whosoever will yield to His drawing. His heart is Love.  :HeartThrob: :dsunny:

[eaglesway]

We hav all at times played around the edges of mild LOL, but so far we have mostly retreated back within the borders of tolerably respectful HAHAHA.

By a "milder form of Modalism", I mean, three modes of one God, Father(the source/"who alone dwells in unappraochable light)) Jesus (the Logos/outshining of the Fathers glory) and the Spirit(the All in All of God moving through all creation to glorify the Anointed One who is gatering all things into one so as to return it to the Creator so thet God may be ALL IN ALL)

Hard-line modalists kind of deny the Father(IMO) hardline trinitarians kinda deny the shema(IMO)- and of course there are shades and degrees of all these systems of thought about this exciting and complex subject :o)

[eaglesway]

Also, I dont think Gary should need to pre-justify any belief he has about the godhead- it is nonessential doctrine and certainly non-essential to the primary purpose of this site :o)

[eaglesway]

Isaiah says of Israel in the wildernes "They rebelled agaisnt the Holy Spirit"

David says in Psalms, "Take not Thy Holy Spirit from me"

These two together are interesting, eaglesway.   How can we make them go together unless the Spirit is a person.

How did they rebel against the Spirit in the wilderness?  They did not have the Spirit as we do, only a very few like David had the Holy Spirit.

So how could they rebel against something they did not have?

But, God in the Old Testament says, they rebelled against me.

So that would lead one to conclude the Holy Spirit is God.


But then David says to God, Don't take your Spirit away from me.

That would lead one to believe that the Spirit is under the control of God.

So if the Spirit is God and under the control of God--
The only way to logically make sense of these two facts, imo, is if there are two Gods.

I understand that argument Molly :o)

I just dont believe the Holy Spirit is a separate co-equal person. if the I AM is an ocean of water. Jesus is the fountain head through which the fountain of His(the one true invisible God)Spirit springs forth - the Spirit of Christ, the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God- all the same water which is the I AM who is becoming ALL IN ALL.

I am not trying to convince you, I am just trying to explain how I see it, in brief- without writing my book about it here on Tentmaker LOLOL

[micah7:9]

Also, I dont think Gary should need to pre-justify any belief he has about the godhead- it is nonessential doctrine and certainly non-essential to the primary purpose of this site :o)

I agree. But I must ask then why a trinity and freewill subject discussion had been not allowed until lately? I have found that if all doctrines taught are not inspected by those who believe, how can a truth be learned or enlarged? I am glad the two subjects have had a discussion, even though barriers still stand. So, we ALL must yield to wisdom by way and through the Holy Spirit. :HeartThrob: Thanks EW

[eaglesway]

I think we all actually always felt that way. It was disallowed because there were some very divisive, hostile, chaotic results in past discussions.

This has been an experiment.

It was just a matter of trying it on again and seeing if we could keep the discussions within the guidelines. So far so good. :o)

[micah7:9]

 :HeartThrob:
Well, me personally, when I was led to find this site, was overjoyed to find brothers and sisters in Christ who read and studied the Bible accepting it's truths that had been and are, hidden by main steam traditional religious beliefs. Reading as truth seekers, studying words as best we could using books with Hebrew and Greek words and their meanings and definitions. Learning from others search who for truth and finding that correction and reproof are not tools to degrade what we as individuals found to be false or correct but had been corrected and aided by love to further our search.

We accept the Truth of the Words in God's Word, when some came to understand that the teaching of an everlasting torment to be false and that the meaning and definitions of words such as "hell, forever and everlasting" do not and never were what main steam traditional religious beliefs taught. We all found these teachings to be false, being revealed and opened by the guiding of the Holy Spirit, The Teacher.
So, and with all due respect, when the discussion of the subject of a trinity teaching "of 3 persons in 1 blessed trinity" was brought up and we as growing students of the word cannot look up words like "trinity" to substantiate it's worth as a doctrine worthy of following where within the covers of the Bible there is no such teaching by the OT prophets and no evidence that the NT writers speak of any such teaching, there in lies the proof for me, personally, that it is a teaching not worth the effort put forth by the  teaching's followers, in their attempt to prove the teaching which has no biblical foundation.

Just looking up the word "person" in the Bible was very eye opening to me. I have no need to be "right," but I do have a great yearning to believe the Truth or at the least, following the teaching of The Teacher and Apostels, without  religions theories not found in the Bible.
All Praise to His Name :dsunny:

[Molly]

Micah, with all due respect, you are not the arbiter of Truth.

You have your own opinions and that is all they are.

Most of the Christian world and the earliest church believe in the trinity.

Maybe they are on to something.

But, I do notice, just like Balaam, God puts the word 'blessed' in your mouth whenever you say, trinity.

You can't help but speak the truth--The blessed trinity.  Yes it is. 

Because as someone once said, our religion is the only religion in the world where love preceded life.

And, before anything else came into being, there was love and relationship within the Godhead.


...the glorious gospel of the happy God...

[micah7:9]

The words in the Bible are not opinion, but words that are NOT in the Bible are opinion.
And God does not put the words, "blessed trinity" in my mouth I just type those words because YOU put them into the discussion.

And I have stated numerous times that I am not a fan or follower of religion as it is has been bantered about and is bantered about.
Jas 1:26  If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.
I ask the Lord everyday to help me with my tongue, whether just regular conversation, but mostly when I am set before those who believe in main stream religion's stories, and He has helped me much just in this thread.

Nothing "trinue or trinity" here that I can see.

Godhead...G2304 theios    From G2316; godlike (neuter as noun, divinity): - divine, godhead.
G2316  theos   Of uncertain affinity; a deity, the supreme Divinity; figuratively a magistrate; by Hebraism very: - X exceeding, God, god [-ly, -ward].
G2305  theiotēs  From G2304; divinity (abstractly): - godhead.
G2320  theotēs  From G2316; divinity (abstractly): - godhead.

[dajomaco]

If there was a three person God  head and each is co equal

Why would Jesus get all the Glory for sacrificing.

If God is Love and all three are co equal how did it come about that
Jesus got Picked to come in the flesh.

When they were working out this choice.
Did any one in the God head have a slightly different idea than the other.

If not then either our fundamental understanding of personhood is wrong.
or our fundamental understanding of the Trinity is wrong. 

[ded2daworld]

Molly. with all due respect, you, Micah, me, etc. none of us are arbiters of truth nor do we claim to be. (Well a couple of crazies we've had on the forum did claim that)
Everyone has there opinions and indeed, that is all they are, yours, mine and Micahs included.
Most of the christian world believes in everlasting, burning, Hell. That doesn't mean they are right on the trinity. Truth is not determined by majority opinion.
Being a christian for 40 years myself and a trinitarian for most of it, I never used the term "Blessed trinity" except when singing hymns that contained the words. You sure won't find "blessed trinity" in ANY bible translation so why you say people automatically put "blessed" when using the term trinity is curious to me.

AND...IMO - Love did not precede Life Since God is Love and God is Life and nothing preceded God. :Peace2:

[micah7:9]

If there was a three person God  head and each is co equal

Why would Jesus get all the Glory for sacrificing.

If God is Love and all three are co equal how did it come about that
Jesus got Picked to come in the flesh.

When they were working out this choice.
Did any one in the God head have a slightly different idea than the other.

If not then either our fundamental understanding of personhood is wrong.
or our fundamental understanding of the Trinity is wrong.

:dsunny:

[micah7:9]

Molly. with all due respect, you, Micah, me, etc. none of us are arbiters of truth nor do we claim to be. (Well a couple of crazies we've had on the forum did claim that)
Everyone has there opinions and indeed, that is all they are, yours, mine and Micahs included.
Most of the christian world believes in everlasting, burning, Hell. That doesn't mean they are right on the trinity. Truth is not determined by majority opinion.
Being a christian for 40 years myself and a trinitarian for most of it, I never used the term "Blessed trinity" except when singing hymns that contained the words. You sure won't find "blessed trinity" in ANY bible translation so why you say people automatically put "blessed" when using the term trinity is curious to me.

AND...IMO - Love did not precede Life Since God is Love and God is Life and nothing preceded God. :Peace2:

:gimmefive: :Peace2: :dsunny:

[dajomaco]

I think therefore I, am.
If I said this to someone face to face.
They would not look for next two people to be me .

The rocks can give more glory to God .
Than a person with out Gods spirit .
That our minds give personality to all aspects of God 
left unfiltered becomes idolatry ( making a tree an idol).

[Molly]

Molly. with all due respect, you, Micah, me, etc. none of us are arbiters of truth nor do we claim to be. (Well a couple of crazies we've had on the forum did claim that)
Everyone has there opinions and indeed, that is all they are, yours, mine and Micahs included.
Most of the christian world believes in everlasting, burning, Hell. That doesn't mean they are right on the trinity. Truth is not determined by majority opinion.
Being a christian for 40 years myself and a trinitarian for most of it, I never used the term "Blessed trinity" except when singing hymns that contained the words. You sure won't find "blessed trinity" in ANY bible translation so why you say people automatically put "blessed" when using the term trinity is curious to me.

AND...IMO - Love did not precede Life Since God is Love and God is Life and nothing preceded God. :Peace2:

Maybe you don't know the history of 'blessed trinity' on this thread.  I was accused of buying the church line on the trinity [as if that was a bad thing] and I said all I knew about the church trinity doctrine was from a song I learned as a child, and I sang a bit of it which included the words, 'blessed trinity.'   So now Micah spits the words 'blessed trinity' at me every time he mentions the trinity.  He means to demean me by saying it.

But, I think God puts the word blessed in his mouth, whenever he says trinity.  And, instead of feeling demeaned, I smile.  That's my opinion, and I'm entitled to it.

Maybe I should make myself clearer about my last post, though.  Love preceded creation in our religion and no other.  Because there was love and relationship in the Godhead before the creation of anything. That is what I meant, and a better way of saying it.    :Peace2: