Trinity Discussion, split from "Something I Just Read"

[eaglesway]

Keep my peace? :o) LOL. Molly, please dont forget, this is a discussion. You have to stand behind the context of all you have said before- not try to pigeon hole me by the statements of an individual post.

The issue here is is the structure of the godhead.

We all believe in the Bible.

We disagree about what it says.

We are drawing different conclusions from the same verses.

It is not about ONE THING correct or incorrect

NOTHING you said in the post is related to the issue of the Trinity.

Maybe I should just ask you a few simple questions.

Do you believe that a Trinitarian understanding is essential to a right relationship with God in Christ in the Spirit?

Do you believe someone who believes Jesus is the Only begotten Son of God but not equal and co-eternal to the Father can have the fulness of the Holy Spirit?

Do you believe belief in the Trinity is necessary for inclusion in the Body of Christ?

[jabcat]

There's some strong sentiment to lock this thread.  If we want to keep it open, let's please zero in on any remaining issues that are seen as productive, and for the building up of the saints (and anyone passing through).  Thanks.

[Molly]

I am happy to stay in context, eaglesway.

I have never said any of those things.

I have never even thought any of those things.

Why is everyone so defensive?

Is believing in the trinity equivalent to believing in ET in your book, so you take it as a personal attack on your beliefs?

No one's salvation depends on believing in the trinity, IMO.

If it did, I would have said so.  I don't mince words, as you might have noticed.

[jabcat]

There's some strong sentiment to lock this thread.  If we want to keep it open, let's please zero in on any remaining issues that are seen as productive, and for the building up of the saints (and anyone passing through).  Thanks.

*   Further - and this is a VERY serious suggestion.  Molly, as you just did in your last post for example -  ANY further posts in this thread be VERY clear, DIRECT TO A SPECIFIC POINT ABOUT THE TRINITY.  No vague, non-OBVIOUSLY-related posts FROM ANYONE.  This will indicate the thread as being productive, focused, and worth keeping open. Thanks.

[micah7:9]

The Bible states through the inspiration of the Spirit of God, some(there are many, many more) verses of scripture that by faith I believe. This is established sound doctrine, if there is any verse of scripture in the Bible that
speaks as clearly as these verses about a teaching that there is a "3 in 1 persons in a blessed trinity or that the Holy Spirit is a person, or of god the holy spirit", please make the verses available for me to see.
Thank you and God bless. :HeartThrob: :dsunny:

Gen 1:1  In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Deu 6:4  Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
Num_23:19  God is not a man,
Exo 34:14  For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:
Isa 45:23  I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Mat 1:23  Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
Luk 1:31  And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
Luk 1:32  He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
Joh 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2  The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3  All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 10:30  I and my Father are one.
Gal 2:20  I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
1Co 15:22  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:47  The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
2Pe_3:9  The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Col 1:16  For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17  And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Rom 14:11  For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
Eph 4:4  There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Eph 4:5  One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6  One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Rev 1:8  I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Rev 22:12  And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Rev 22:13  I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Rev 22:20  He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

[Molly]

Trinity verse:


19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

--Mat 28:19





When they baptized in the name of Jesus only, they had to return to lay hands on in person to give the Holy Spirit:


14 When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that the people of Samaria had accepted God's message, they sent Peter and John there. 15 As soon as they arrived, they prayed for these new believers to receive the Holy Spirit. 16 The Holy Spirit had not yet come upon any of them, for they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then Peter and John laid their hands upon these believers, and they received the Holy Spirit.

--Acts 8

[micah7:9]

Do you have another verse for a witness to that one verse? I mean like something on the line of 3 in 1 persons? Or it being a blessed trinity? Matt 28:19 says nothing about a person, it being a trinity, blessed or other wise.

You should know, I hope, that all the verses I posted have a witness to their truth. :dsunny:

"14 When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that the people of Samaria had accepted God's message, they sent Peter and John there. 15 As soon as they arrived, they prayed for these new believers to receive the Holy Spirit. 16 The Holy Spirit had not yet come upon any of them, for they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then Peter and John laid their hands upon these believers, and they received the Holy Spirit.

--Acts 8"   Yes, they had not received the indwelling power aka Holy Spirit, I don't read that there was another/separate person involved in what they received.

[Molly]

Mat 28:19 says to baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

It is the great commission, given by Jesus, himself.

If only one were necessary, he would have said so.

The fact that it is three in one in the family of God is proof of the sacrament, itself, given by Jesus and practiced by the earliest church.

[Molly]

I don't read that there was another/separate person involved in what they received.

I've got 80 pages of proof for you Micah.  Impersonal forces or wind or whatever you think the Holy Spirit is do not say things like this:



the Spirit said unto him, Behold, three men seek thee.

20 Arise therefore, and get thee down, and go with them, doubting nothing: for I have sent them.

--Acts 10




A Person says things like that. 


If 80 pages doesn't help you see that, I cannot help you further.

But you said it yourself.  A voice that was not yours said, "See."  You know the HS is a Person.

[micah7:9]

What if, I'm just saying what if "Matthew 28:19-- the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit " is a spurious passage, I am saying what if.....

Now is there another verse of scripture in the Bible that bears a witness that Jesus[at another time], or any Apostle[at any time] has stated " the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit ?" You know in that order?
I mean you have offered many, many verses that the Holy Spirit has power, is power, and that that Spirit of God His power, has been witnessed. I have witnessed it :HeartThrob:

Now you are assuming when you say, "But you said it yourself.  A voice that was not yours said, "See."  You know the HS is a Person."
I do not believe that the Holy Spirit is a person and I did not say or even apply that. :sigh:

[Molly]

Now you are assuming when you say, "But you said it yourself.  A voice that was not yours said, "See."  You know the HS is a Person."
I do not believe that the Holy Spirit is a person and I did not say or even apply that.

Alright, then, tell me again what you said, about, "See," or I can go look it up and post it here. 

I just gave you a post proving the Holy Spirit is a Person and you, again, denied it.

"the Spirit said,"   and then the HS gives instructions to Peter about a meeting he has set up at both ends.

[micah7:9]

Quote from: Molly on June 28, 2013, 09:27:47 PM
"My mollyBible goes on the shelf right next to your micahBible.

I keep telling you that 'messenger' is only one of the definitions for the Hebrew word Malak.

Another definition is angel.

An angel is a supernatural, celestial being, not a human being.

But, you like 'messenger' and insist everyone use 'messenger' because according to you that is all they are.

If the angel I met was a messenger, then his message to me was God loves you and your baby, and His holy angels are always beside you, to protect and preserve you.  The angel I met did not say that, he demonstrated it.

If you have never met one, you are not qualified to speak against it." Molly


I don't believe I said I had a "micahbible." But you refered to you having a "mollybible."
My experiences from the Lord helping me in times of trial and distress and in lifting me up have been 3 times. I knew it was the Lord who helped me each time, I had no visible image, but there was great calm and piece and rest and all that I heard within my being was "see." It was not audible to my human ear, still I heard the word.  I am sorry your assumption was wrong.

[Molly]

Yes, well that is how the Holy Spirit speaks to us, among other ways.

[micah7:9]

Yes, well that is how the Holy Spirit speaks to us, among other ways.

BUT.....what about where is "me" speaking about a person? You, Molly believe and consider the Holy Spirit to be a separate entity, a person, doing things by his own will. Or is that not correct? And I[among many others] believe that the Holy Spirit/His Spirit is the power through which He[the Lord] accomplishes what He sets out to do.
Exo 15:3  The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name. (Jesus)

Num 23:19  God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

1Co 15:21  For seeing that death came through man, through man comes also the resurrection of the dead.

Php 2:11  and that every tongue should confess that JESUS CHRIST is LORD, to the glory of God the Father.
All that is pretty clear, in the Word.

[Molly]

Yes, well that is how the Holy Spirit speaks to us, among other ways.

BUT.....what about where is "me" speaking about a person? You, Molly believe and consider the Holy Spirit to be a separate entity, a person, doing things by his own will. Or is that not correct? And I[among many others] believe that the Holy Spirit/His Spirit is the power through which He[the Lord] accomplishes what He sets out to do.
Exo 15:3  The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name. (Jesus)

Num 23:19  God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

1Co 15:21  For seeing that death came through man, through man comes also the resurrection of the dead.

Php 2:11  and that every tongue should confess that JESUS CHRIST is LORD, to the glory of God the Father.
All that is pretty clear, in the Word.

I'm just saying, Micah, and I'm not presuming to interpret your experience, but that is one standard way in which the Holy Spirit speaks to us, by the still, small voice of 1Kings 19.  That is how he has spoken to countless of Christians over the ages, including myself, and I would always identify that voice as the Holy Spirit because that is his function, to comfort, teach, and guide us and make sure we are never alone.

Jesus called him 'another Comforter,' meaning one just like himself, the Paraklete, the Helper.  So whether he is talking to us by the small voice inside of us, or an audible voice outside, or by dreams, or visions, or appearances in 3 D, the book of Acts is full of such experiences and so is the life of every Christian--all attributable to the Person of the Holy Spirit.

That's not to say in your case or others it couldn't be Jesus or God the Father, I'm not arguing that,  but this is the standard function of the Holy Spirit in our lives.

Christians do not believe because it sounds like a cool thing to do, they believe because they have personal experience of God.

[micah7:9]

"Jesus called him 'another Comforter,' meaning one just like himself."(Molly)

Because Jesus had to "exodus"(to use your definition) so that He, the Spirit of Truth[which would be "another"(yes?" could return to comfort us.

"So whether he is talking to us by the small voice inside of us, or an audible voice outside, or by dreams, or visions, or appearances in 3 D, the book of Acts is full of such experiences and so is the life of every Christian........."
Totally agree, but to this well as Ronald Reagan said, "There you go again."--all attributable to the Person of the Holy Spirit."

"That's not to say in your case or others it couldn't be Jesus or God the Father, I'm not arguing that,  but this is the standard function of the Holy Spirit in our lives."

For me it was Jesus Lord, God the Father, which is "the standard function of the Holy Spirit in our lives."

"Christians do not believe because it sounds like a cool thing to do, they believe because they have personal experience of God."  :iagree: :HeartThrob: :dsunny:

[Molly]

And I[among many others] believe that the Holy Spirit/His Spirit is the power through which He[the Lord] accomplishes what He sets out to do.

Yes, but I do not consider the power to be the Holy Spirit himself.  The Holy Spirit has great power--it's called dunamis in the greek--through which Jesus did his miracles and God accomplishes his goals and he can even impart this power to us, but I do not confuse the power with the person.  I consider them two different things.

That's the best I can do and probably the closest we will ever come to agreeing.


11 And he said, Go forth, and stand upon the mount before the Lord. And, behold, the Lord passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the Lord; but the Lord was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the Lord was not in the earthquake:

12 And after the earthquake a fire; but the Lord was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice.
--1 Kings 19

[micah7:9]

And I[among many others] believe that the Holy Spirit/His Spirit is the power through which He[the Lord] accomplishes what He sets out to do.

Yes, but I do not consider the power to be the Holy Spirit himself.  The Holy Spirit has great power--it's called dunamis in the greek--through which Jesus did his miracles and God accomplishes his goals and he can even impart this power to us, but I do not confuse the power with the person.  I consider them two different things.

That's the best I can do and probably the closest we will ever come to agreeing.


11 And he said, Go forth, and stand upon the mount before the Lord. And, behold, the Lord passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the Lord; but the Lord was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the Lord was not in the earthquake:

12 And after the earthquake a fire; but the Lord was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice.
--1 Kings 19

"Yes, but I do not consider the power to be the Holy Spirit himself.  The Holy Spirit has great power--it's called dunamis in the greek--" Molly

And that POWER the Holy Spirit/Spirit ( dunamis) is out from God the Father Creator.
The Holy Spirit does not have great power, whatever power that is from God the Father IS the power His Spirit.

How, or better why would anyone want, desire, wish to have the very Spirit/power that Gen 1:2 Spirit of God fluttering  on the face of the waters,
Gen 1:2 the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Gen 1:3  And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
to divide that power from the the very essence, the very One, who is the Existing one Jehovah[Lord]?
The dunamis/power the Lord God's is Him......SPIRIT...God IS Spirit, there's the dunamis/power SPIRIT and God is SPIRIT, the Lord is ONE God. :HeartThrob: :dsunny:

" But the Spirit is not the power." Molly

Then when I read GOD IS SPIRIT, then what pray tell is the power? Now I am setting with murky mind.

[Molly]

The power of the Holy Spirit is the power of God, yes.  But the Spirit is not the power.  As the scripture says, the Lord is not in the wind, the Lord is not in the earthquake, the Lord is not in the fire, [all of these are POWER] but in the still small voice.

The Holy Spirit is not the power.  That's the best I can do.

[Molly]

Here's 50 things the Person of the Holy Spirit does for us [besides break mountains before us with his great POWER]




1.      He convicts the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment (John 16:8).

2.      He guides us into all truth (John 16:13).

3.      He regenerates us (John 3:5-8; Titus 3:5).

4.      He glorifies and testifies of Christ (John 15:26; 16:14).

5.      He reveals Christ to us and in us (John 16:14-15).

6.      He leads us (Rom. 8:14; Gal. 5:18; Matt. 4:1; Luke 4:1).

7.      He sanctifies us (2 Thess. 2:13; 1 Pet. 1:2; Rom. 5:16).

8.      He empowers us (Luke 4:14; 24:49; Rom. 15:19; Acts 1:8).

9.      He fills us (Eph. 5:18; Acts 2:4; 4:8, 31; 9:17).

10.    He teaches us to pray (Rom. 8:26-27; Jude 1:20).

11.    He bears witness in us that we are children of God (Rom. 8:16).

12.    He produces in us the fruit or evidence of His work and presence (Gal. 5:22-23).

13.    He distributes spiritual gifts and manifestations (the outshining) of His presence to and through the body (1 Cor.     12:4, 8-10; Heb. 2:4).

14.    He anoints us for ministry (Luke 4:18; Acts 10:38).

15.    He washes and renews us (Titus 3:5).

16.    He brings unity and oneness to the body (Eph. 4:3; 2:14-18). Here He plays the same role that He plays in the Godhead. The Spirit is the life that unites Father and Son. He plays the same role in the church. When He is operating in a group of people, He unites them in love. Therefore, a sure evidence of the Holy Spirit working in a group is Love and Unity. Not signs and wonders (those are seasonal and can be counterfeited).

17.    He is our guarantee and deposit of the future resurrection (2 Cor. 1:22; 2 Cor. 5:5).

18.    He seals us unto the day of redemption (Eph. 1:13; 4:30).

19.    He sets us free from the law of sin and death (Rom. 8:2).

20.    He quickens our mortal bodies (Rom. 8:11).

21.    He reveals the deep things of God to us (1 Cor. 2:10).

22.    He reveals what has been given to us from God (1 Cor. 2:12).

23.    He dwells in us (Rom. 8:9; 1 Cor. 3:16; 2 Tim. 1:14; John 14:17).

24.    He speaks to, in, and through us (1 Cor. 12:3; 1 Tim. 4:1; Rev. 2:11; Heb 3:7; Matt. 10:20; Acts 2:4; 8:29; 10:19; 11:12, 28; 13:2; 16:6,7; 21:4,11).

25.    He is the agent by which we are baptized into the body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:13).

26.    He brings liberty (2 Cor. 3:17).

27.    He transforms us into the image of Christ (2 Cor. 3:18).

28.    He cries in our hearts, "Abba, Father" (Gal. 4:6).

29.    He enables us to wait (Gal. 5:5).

30.    He supplies us with Christ (Phil. 1:19, KJV).

31.    He grants everlasting life (Gal. 6:8).

32.    He gives us access to God the Father (Eph. 2:18).

33.    He makes us (corporately) God's habitation (Eph. 2:22).

34.    He reveals the mystery of God to us (Eph. 3:5).

35.    He strengthens our spirits (Eph. 3:16).

36.    He enables us to obey the truth (1 Pet. 1:22).

37.    He enables us to know that Jesus abides in us (1 John 3:24; 4:13).

38.    He confesses that Jesus came in the flesh (1 John 4:2).

39.    He says "Come, Lord Jesus" along with the bride (Rev. 22:17).

40.    He dispenses God's love into our hearts (Rom. 5:5).

41.    He bears witness to the truth in our conscience (Rom. 9:1).

42.    He teaches us (1 Cor. 2:13; John 14:26).

43.    He gives us joy (1 Thess. 1:6).

44.    He enables some to preach the gospel (1 Pet. 1:12).

45.    He moves us (2 Pet. 1:21).

46.    He knows the things of God (1 Cor. 2:11).

47.    He casts out demons (Matt. 12:28).

48.    He brings things to our remembrance (John 14:26).

49.    He comforts us (Acts 9:31).

50.    He makes some overseers in the church and sends some out to the work of church planting [through the body] (Acts 20:28; 13:2).

Summary: The Holy Spirit unites us to Jesus Christ and to His body. He reveals Christ to us, gives us His life, and makes Christ alive in us. The Spirit takes the experiences of Jesus . . . His incarnation, ministry, crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension . . . and brings them into our own experience. Because of the Holy Spirit, the history of Jesus Christ becomes our story and experience (see Jesus Manifesto for details).



http://frankviola.org/2010/11/18/50-things-the-holy-spirit-does/

[micah7:9]

Where did Frank get all the "he's"? Or was that you?

[micah7:9]

The power of the Holy Spirit is the power of God, yes.  But the Spirit is not the power.  As the scripture says, the Lord is not in the wind, the Lord is not in the earthquake, the Lord is not in the fire, [all of these are POWER] but in the still small voice.

The Holy Spirit is not the power.  That's the best I can do.

"The power of the Holy Spirit is the power of God, yes." If you would stop there well  :banana: but.....
So, "the Lord is not in the wind, the Lord is not in the earthquake, the Lord is not in the fire, [all of these are POWER]" so the Lord is not in the wind, could it be that HE IS the wind, the Lord is not in the earthquake because HE IS the earthquake, and the Lord is not in the fire because Heb 12:29  For our God IS a consuming fire.
And Isa 45:7  I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Isa 45:8  Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it.
So this Lord could not possibly be the still small voice?  I the LORD do all these things.

Yeah HE can be a still small voice. :HeartThrob: :dsunny:

[Molly]

Where did Frank get all the "he's"? Or was that you?

That's Frank. [along with most Bible translators]

[eaglesway]

Most bible translators are still giving us hell and Hades for Sheol and forever and everlasting for "olam" and "aionios". Doesnt make them correct in their theology because they agree. :0)

[micah7:9]

Where did Frank get all the "he's"? Or was that you?

That's Frank. [along with most Bible translators]

Then most of those Bible translators are bias and except the trinity theory. In all your 80(and now more) posts as far as I have read that you have posted, you have offered what you[and I guess Frank]interpreted as proof of the trinity theory. You have offered(how many times I posted) not one piece of plain speak of written verse in the Bible in either the OT or NT that shows that the Bible speaks of a 3 persons in 1 or any reference to a blessed trinity. Just because religious leaders say, promote, and sell what they think or believe the Bible teaches, don't make it so.
The trinity teaching of 3 in 1 persons and blessed trinity[here you go moderators] is un-biblical and blasphemy, an idol of the heart.
One can believe it, it's a choice, but should one believe it there must be words in the Bible that speak plainly as to the existence of such a teaching. Interpretation is of ones self, but should the plain teaching be unseen without the guide of a religious leader and that religions teaching, it may even fall into the occult.
Yes, I await the moderators. I can see why the trinity was a subject not allowed for discussion. Yet without a discussion it kind of hides Bible truth. Should the trinity/theory not be put in the same place as "hell and everlasting" then why is there a forum that stands on the principal of Bible truth? There is no "everlasting place of torment called hell and everlasting is aoinian and durational, and not forever" how can a false doctrine of God being a trinity of 3 persons in 1 blessed trinity escape a discussion of truth? :HeartThrob:
Moderators.......? I await. :dsunny: