Trinity Discussion, split from "Something I Just Read"

[jabcat]

I see where Molly is called confused.  Maybe I'm missing it, but I've searched for it and I'm not finding where anyone was called a heretic.

Either way, how about we do this without getting personal?  If not, we can just close it and move on.  Thanks.

[mplsfitter539]

Yes, I agree with you,...Besides your question has been answered six ways from Sunday.

[jabcat]

It was just requested that this be discussed without being personally insulting. 

Any further such posts will be removed, and any further moderation followed up as necessary.

[Molly]

Here is an example of a spirit with a personality.  The spirit is called evil and seizes the boy, makes him scream, and batters him.



Can a force be evil?  Or is a force impersonal?  Is a hurricane evil?  Or an impersonal force of nature?

But if the spirit isn't a force, then what?




37 The next day, after they had come down the mountain, a large crowd met Jesus. 38 A man in the crowd called out to him, "Teacher, I beg you to look at my son, my only child. 39 An evil spirit keeps seizing him, making him scream. It throws him into convulsions so that he foams at the mouth. It batters him and hardly ever leaves him alone. 40 I begged your disciples to cast out the spirit, but they couldn't do it."

41 Jesus said, "You faithless and corrupt people! How long must I be with you and put up with you?" Then he said to the man, "Bring your son here."

42 As the boy came forward, the demon knocked him to the ground and threw him into a violent convulsion. But Jesus rebuked the evil spirit and healed the boy. Then he gave him back to his father. 43 Awe gripped the people as they saw this majestic display of God's power.



--Luke 9

[Molly]

19 While Peter thought on the vision, the Spirit said unto him, Behold, three men seek thee.

20 Arise therefore, and get thee down, and go with them, doubting nothing: for I have sent them.

21 Then Peter went down to the men which were sent unto him from Cornelius; and said, Behold, I am he whom ye seek: what is the cause wherefore ye are come?


22 And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee.

23 Then called he them in, and lodged them. And on the morrow Peter went away with them, and certain brethren from Joppa accompanied him.


--Acts 10




Looking at the Holy Spirit again, the Spirit comes to Peter and tells him, three men will come looking for you.  Go down and go with them for I have sent them.

Peter does as he's told and they tell Peter they were sent because Cornelius was warned from God by a holy angel to send for Peter.

But, again,  the Holy Spirit told Peter, "I have sent them."

So, again--Is the Holy Spirit the angel or God?

[Molly]

We all want to please our God.  But, most of the time aren't we guessing what he wants?  He wants me to act this way, and dress that way, and not do that thing, and not say this or that.  Our own heads can become our own worst enemy trying to please God as we fall into judgment.

But, wouldn't it be a kick to have God tell us himself what he wants from us, whether by audible voice or holy angel or appearance?  Then of course we would obey, wouldn't we?  If we recognized it was God asking us, that is...

Peter has such an intimate relationship with God that the Holy Spirit only has to tell him once, Go with these men for I have sent them, and Peter is ready to go into a totally unknown situation, knowing that this is what God wants him to do.  What a kick!  It takes all the guesswork out doesn't it?  Not to mention our own egos.  But, what an adventure!

This was the adventure the holy prophets of the Old Testament had, and one that I expect is meant for every one of us in this age.


The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."

--John 3

[redhotmagma]

Ques: 
Did Paul receive a message from the Holy Spirit while he was on the sinking ship.

Yes Molly.  Now please enlighten us as to how this shows the HS is a separate person of the trinity.

Ok so you say, Yes, Paul received a message from the Holy Spirit while he was on the sinking ship in Acts 27

So who is the Holy Spirit in this passage?  The Angel of God or God?

Because there are only two there who could be giving Paul the message.



23 For there stood by me this night the angel of God, whose I am, and whom I serve,

24 Saying, Fear not, Paul; thou must be brought before Caesar: and, lo, God hath given thee all them that sail with thee.

25 Wherefore, sirs, be of good cheer: for I believe God, that it shall be even as it was told me.

--Acts 27

He does not say I believe God, which is you angel the third person of the trinity.  He says he believes God, as in the message given by God, the message was sent by a messenger aka angel.  Again this proves nothing of your point. 

Have you ever heard the saying "if your only tool is a hammer all you see are nails"?  Molly the term in the christian world is eisegesis, reading into a passage.  The messenger came bearing a message from God.  Paul believed the message sent from God.  Thats it.  There is nothing else in the passage stating that the messenger is the third person of the trinity.

Ok, do you want to change your answer then?  Paul did not receive a message from the Holy Spirit, after all?  Because it doesn't sound like you wish to say that the Holy Spirit is an angel, and it doesn't sound like you wish to say that the Holy Spirit is God.  Am I right?

So the Holy Spirit is not in that passage at all now, according to you?  And, Paul did not receive a message from the Holy Spirit?

Molly just because the message came from the HS aka God doesn't mean that the messenger is the HS aka a separate person in the trinity.  Was the ass that spoke to Balaam the HS?  Because I would say that message came from God, through the outworking of His power aka the HS.  In the same way this angel (messenger bringing a message), whether a literal man, a celestial being, or an extension of the mind of God does not make it to be a third person of the trinity. 

Look at the angel of the Lord that gives the law, that angel speaks for God, yet is not God.  How do I know?  Compare mediators. 

Gal 3:19 KJV - Wherefore then [serveth] the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made ; [and it was] ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator[3316].
Gal 3:20 KJV - Now a mediator[3316] is not [a mediator] of one, but God is one.
1Ti 2:5 KJV - For [there is] one God, and one mediator[3316] between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Hbr 8:6 KJV - But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator[3316] of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Hbr 9:15 KJV - And for this cause he is the mediator[3316] of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions [that were] under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Hbr 12:24 KJV - And to Jesus the mediator[3316] of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than [that of] Abel.

[Molly]

Muslims do not believe in the trinity.  They consider it blasphemy.  They do not believe God has a Son.  They do not believe Jesus is the Son of God.   [Allah does not have a Son, that means Allah is not the Christian God, nor is he the same god as the Christian God.]


They do not believe Jesus is God.  They do not believe the Holy Spirit is God.  They believe the Holy Spirit is created by God.  That it breathes the breath of life into the human fetus.  That the Holy Spirit and Jesus are both created by God and beneath God, who is Allah [not YHWH].


They also believe that Jesus was not crucified and therefore that he didn't rise from the dead nor did his death serve as atonement for our sins, obviously because he did not die on the cross.

[Molly]

Molly just because the message came from the HS aka God doesn't mean that the messenger is the HS aka a separate person in the trinity.

Are you saying here the Holy Spirit is God?

And, are you also saying the angel of the Lord is not the Holy Spirit?

What are you saying about mediators?  Are you saying Jesus is not God because he is a mediator?  I didn't understand your point.  Or are you just pointing out the angel of the Lord is a mediator?

In the same way this angel (messenger bringing a message), whether a literal man, a celestial being, or an extension of the mind of God does not make it to be a third person of the trinity. 

No one is saying a donkey is the third person of the trinity.  I am saying the Holy Spirit is the third person of the trinity.

[redhotmagma]

Molly just because the message came from the HS aka God doesn't mean that the messenger is the HS aka a separate person in the trinity.

Are you saying here the Holy Spirit is God?

And, are you also saying the angel of the Lord is not the Holy Spirit?

What are you saying about mediators?  Are you saying Jesus is not God because he is a mediator?  I didn't understand your point.  Or are you just pointing out the angel of the Lord is a mediator?

I am saying the Holy Spirit is God, BUT NOT A SEPARATE PERSON IN THE IMAGINARY TRINITY

Compare the mediators and the covenants.  The one that is worthless and passing away the OC was mediated by angels.  That angel speaks for God, yet is not necessarily A SEPARATE PERSON IN THE IMAGINARY TRINITY.  In the same way, the angel in Acts 27 speaks for God, but is not A SEPARATE PERSON IN THE IMAGINARY TRINITY.

[redhotmagma]

Muslims do not believe in the trinity.  They consider it blasphemy.  They do not believe God has a Son.  They do not believe Jesus is the Son of God.   [Allah does not have a Son, that means Allah is not the Christian God, nor is he the same god as the Christian God.]


They do not believe Jesus is God.  They do not believe the Holy Spirit is God.  They believe the Holy Spirit is created by God.  That it breathes the breath of life into the human fetus.  That the Holy Spirit and Jesus are both created by God and beneath God, who is Allah [not YHWH].


They also believe that Jesus was not crucified and therefore that he didn't rise from the dead nor did his death serve as atonement for our sins, obviously because he did not die on the cross.

First non-trinitarians are lumped with JW's, now muslims.  What does this have to do with anything?  We are discussing biblical doctrines, not those of the Koran, nor of the watchtower society. 

[Molly]

1Ti 2:5 KJV - For [there is] one God, and one mediator[3316] between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

We have been given the man Christ Jesus, to act as our mediator, as our high Priest, even though by earthly birth he was not entitled to be priest as he was from the tribe of kings, but God has sworn on himself, Thou art a priest forever, after the order of Melchizedek, and this priesthood is based, not on a genealogy of man, but on an indestructible life.

Yet, before we were given the unique Son of God, whose name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, the Prince of peace --He was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

[Molly]

Molly just because the message came from the HS aka God doesn't mean that the messenger is the HS aka a separate person in the trinity.

Are you saying here the Holy Spirit is God?

And, are you also saying the angel of the Lord is not the Holy Spirit?

What are you saying about mediators?  Are you saying Jesus is not God because he is a mediator?  I didn't understand your point.  Or are you just pointing out the angel of the Lord is a mediator?

I am saying the Holy Spirit is God, BUT NOT A SEPARATE PERSON IN THE IMAGINARY TRINITY

Compare the mediators and the covenants.  The one that is worthless and passing away the OC was mediated by angels.  That angel speaks for God, yet is not necessarily A SEPARATE PERSON IN THE IMAGINARY TRINITY.  In the same way, the angel in Acts 27 speaks for God, but is not A SEPARATE PERSON IN THE IMAGINARY TRINITY.

Ok, thank you for being clear, because I had no idea what you were saying.

So we can agree on one thing, the Holy Spirit is God.  That also means the Holy Spirit is a person, because God is a person, so can we agree on that, too?  Or are in you in the Holy Spirit is a force camp?

Do we also agree Jesus is God?  And co-equal to God the Father?  Or not?

Regarding the covenants, I disagree with your characterization of that but that's another long story, so I won't get into it here.

PS Please don't call the trinity 'imaginary,' --it is disrespectful to my beliefs.

[redhotmagma]

The trinity is not in the bible.  Therefore the word trinity comes from the mind of man.  The concept may be true (though I obviously don't think it is) but the word is imaginary, from the mind of man. 

You disagree with my characterization of the covenants?  Then you disagree with Paul and the writer of Hebrews?  Those are exact words used for it. 

Molly you have again characterized non trins as non christians by throwing out the Muslim aspect, you talk about respect for beliefs?  Give me a break. 

[Molly]

The trinity is not in the bible.  Therefore the word trinity comes from the mind of man.  The concept may be true (though I obviously don't think it is) but the word is imaginary, from the mind of man. 

You disagree with my characterization of the covenants?  Then you disagree with Paul and the writer of Hebrews?  Those are exact words used for it. 

Molly you have again characterized non trins as non christians by throwing out the Muslim aspect, you talk about respect for beliefs?  Give me a break.

No I haven't characterized non Trinitarians as 'non Christians.'  That's in your head, not mine. I was reading over at a muslim board today, and I am telling you what they believe.  And, a lot of it looked very familiar.  The word, trinity, is not in the Bible, they said.

The thing that makes them non Christian is that they believe in a different God, one who does not have a Son, who was crucified, dead, buried, rose from the dead, and died on the cross in atonement for our sins.  So, the people who are saying we worship the same God as muslims are wrong.

PS I do not believe the apostle Paul used the word 'worthless' when referring to the old covenant.

[redhotmagma]

Give me a break.  In the middle of a discussion you just happen to say Muslims don't believe in the trinity.  Just like you happened to say JW's don't.  Maybe its your subconscious speaking then Molly, or maybe its that separate person in your human trinity thats speaking.  If thats not what you were saying then why say it at all?  How does it add to the discussion?  Especially in the middle of an ongoing discussion.  I'm not buying it.  this is a discussion about the biblical evidence of a trinity. 

[Molly]

Give me a break.  In the middle of a discussion you just happen to say Muslims don't believe in the trinity.  Just like you happened to say JW's don't.  Maybe its your subconscious speaking then Molly, or maybe its that separate person in your human trinity thats speaking.  If thats not what you were saying then why say it at all?  How does it add to the discussion?  Especially in the middle of an ongoing discussion.  I'm not buying it.  this is a discussion about the biblical evidence of a trinity.

Please don't project things onto me.  Is your conscience clear?  If it is, you do not have to make things up about me.  I was just reading over at a muslim board.  This is what they had to say as I reported in my post.  Do you consider a belief in the trinity to be blasphemy?  I doubt you do, and I didn't accuse you of believing that, either.  Do you agree with most of this stuff?  I doubt it, but if you do, why don't you tell me. But there is some overlap with what is being said on this thread.

"Muslims do not believe in the trinity.  They consider it blasphemy.  They do not believe God has a Son.  They do not believe Jesus is the Son of God.   [Allah does not have a Son, that means Allah is not the Christian God, nor is he the same god as the Christian God.]


They do not believe Jesus is God.  They do not believe the Holy Spirit is God.  They believe the Holy Spirit is created by God.  That it breathes the breath of life into the human fetus.  That the Holy Spirit and Jesus are both created by God and beneath God, who is Allah [not YHWH].


They also believe that Jesus was not crucified and therefore that he didn't rise from the dead nor did his death serve as atonement for our sins, obviously because he did not die on the cross."

[speaktruth]

We all want to please our God.  But, most of the time aren't we guessing what he wants?  He wants me to act this way, and dress that way, and not do that thing, and not say this or that.  Our own heads can become our own worst enemy trying to please God as we fall into judgment.

But, wouldn't it be a kick to have God tell us himself what he wants from us, whether by audible voice or holy angel or appearance?  Then of course we would obey, wouldn't we?  If we recognized it was God asking us, that is...

Peter has such an intimate relationship with God that the Holy Spirit only has to tell him once, Go with these men for I have sent them, and Peter is ready to go into a totally unknown situation, knowing that this is what God wants him to do.  What a kick!  It takes all the guesswork out doesn't it?  Not to mention our own egos.  But, what an adventure!

This was the adventure the holy prophets of the Old Testament had, and one that I expect is meant for every one of us in this age.


The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."

--John 3

re:  But, wouldn't it be a kick to have God tell us himself what he wants from us...

OT
He has showed you, O man, what is good.  AND WHAT DOES THE LORD REQUIRE OF YOU but to do justly, and love kindness and mercy, and humble yourself and walk humbly with your God.   Micah 6:8 AMP  (see also Dt 10:12, 13 and Dt 30:16)


NT
John 6:28-29 AMP

v 28   They then said, What are we to do, that we may [habitually] be working the works of God?  [WHAT ARE WE TO DO TO CARRY OUT WHAT GOD REQUIRES?]

v 29  Jesus replied, This is the work (service) that God asks of you:  that you believe in the One Whom He has sent [that you cleave to, trust, rely on, and have faith in His Messenger].

[redhotmagma]

What does that have to do with our discussion here, on a biblical Christian site, based on Universal Reconciliation?  Nothing.  Hey guess what atheists don't believe in the bible.  Random fact of the day.  Mormons think Jesus and Satan are brothers.  Another random fact of the day.  Pagans believe that the sun is their god.  Another random fact of the day.   :BangHead:

[Molly]

We all want to please our God.  But, most of the time aren't we guessing what he wants?  He wants me to act this way, and dress that way, and not do that thing, and not say this or that.  Our own heads can become our own worst enemy trying to please God as we fall into judgment.

But, wouldn't it be a kick to have God tell us himself what he wants from us, whether by audible voice or holy angel or appearance?  Then of course we would obey, wouldn't we?  If we recognized it was God asking us, that is...

Peter has such an intimate relationship with God that the Holy Spirit only has to tell him once, Go with these men for I have sent them, and Peter is ready to go into a totally unknown situation, knowing that this is what God wants him to do.  What a kick!  It takes all the guesswork out doesn't it?  Not to mention our own egos.  But, what an adventure!

This was the adventure the holy prophets of the Old Testament had, and one that I expect is meant for every one of us in this age.


The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."

--John 3

re:  But, wouldn't it be a kick to have God tell us himself what he wants from us...

OT
He has showed you, O man, what is good.  AND WHAT DOES THE LORD REQUIRE OF YOU but to do justly, and love kindness and mercy, and humble yourself and walk humbly with your God.   Micah 6:8 AMP  (see also Dt 10:12, 13 and Dt 30:16)


NT
John 6:28-29 AMP

v 28   They then said, What are we to do, that we may [habitually] be working the works of God?  [WHAT ARE WE TO DO TO CARRY OUT WHAT GOD REQUIRES?]

v 29  Jesus replied, This is the work (service) that God asks of you:  that you believe in the One Whom He has sent [that you cleave to, trust, rely on, and have faith in His Messenger].

Yes, we have the Bible, the word of God, and so did the Jews.

And, in this age we believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and our Savior.

We believe the testimony and the witness.

But, we also have something else,  the Holy Spirit, who allows us a one to one communication with God, and an ability to have him tell us personally what he wants from us in particular, this day, this hour, this moment, and to meet with him personally in a way that was only possible for a few men before,  the holy prophets of the Old Testament.

This is what it means to draw near.

[dajomaco]

I hope this thread will continue ,
the more truth I come realize,
the more blessings I realize.

Molly specifically what are the blessings awaiting me
if I saw the trinity as truth.
What blessings am I missing that can I not receive until I confess the trinity.

[eaglesway]

So we cannot draw near unless we see the godhead as you see it? :o)

So anyone who is not an orthodox Trinitarian like you doesnt believe in the Holy Spirit?

Ahhh, I see- the Holy Spirit is only active and intimate with people who see things like you do!

Makes sense to me folks,,, what remains to be said?

[Molly]

Name one thing I said in my last post that was incorrect.

ONE THING.

Name it!  Or keep YOUR PEACE.

[dajomaco]

Molly I think we can clear up a lot of misunderstandings if you just answer the question,



Molly specifically what are the blessings awaiting me
if I saw the trinity as truth.
What blessings am I missing that can I not receive until I confess the trinity?

[Molly]

How would I know that, Dajomaco?

I am not God.