Self Defense

[ded2daworld]

Ken wrote "Third, there is no New Testament biblical validation for using weapons. Jesus didn't use them or endorse them."
Saying we shouldn't use weapons because Jesus didn't use them is like saying we shouldn't use medicines or life saving surgery because Jesus didn't use them.
I also believe it's wrong to say that Jesus didn't endorse them. He asked if the disciples had any swords once and they replied that they had 2. Jesus then said "that is enough", he did not say "we need more or that we need less or none"
Not endorsing something is not the same as endorsing something else - in this case owning a weapon of protection.
Jesus is a reality God and the reality is that there are people out there that will take your life for a few dollars. If they are stopped, you have saved not only yourself but others since most are repeat offenders.
Suppose a sick (with sin) person was on top of your daughter or grandaughter or wife, stabbing, trying to kill them?
Do you just watch? Do you throw up a hurried prayer for their safety? Do you ask them politely in the name of Jesus to stop?
Do you ask them to get up from there and drink some poison?
NO, you shoot them if you have a gun knowing that God sorts us all out and forgives us all ultimately.
"Resisting evil" is for us to resist other evil people. Fleeing from evil is when evil is upon us personally.
BTW, I have a baseball bat by my bedside and I wouldn't even hesitate to bash in the brains of the perpetrator in the above scenario.
So judge my spirituality or "trusting" the Lord if you will, I have long ago settled this matter and Father has NOT told me different.
When God told David to wipe out every man woman and child of an evil group, David would have been "on the outs" with God for not obeying. David the "man after God's own heart" obeyed God by removing evil as instructed. Also, how evil were the children slaughtered?

[micah7:9]

IMO using David as reason is not plausible, Joh 13:34  `A new commandment I give to you, that ye love one another; according as I did love you, that ye also love one another;
Joh 13:35  in this shall all know that ye are my disciples, if ye may have love one to another.'

David, as others were told to kill, by the Lord God, why? I do not know. But Jesus' example is a whole different ball game. IMO.

[sheila]

when the time came for Jesus to lay down His life,He did not resist the 'authorities" or government. However..there was an occasion when a mob

wanted to seize Him to kill him..and he passed through the midst of them.

   Early beleivers were also instructed..that if the persecute you in one city..flee to aanother.  Also,Peter was miracoulsy delivered by an angel while in prison

     In the OT if a man broke into your house at night and you killed him,you were not blood guilty.

   the law was created for the lawless one..to restrain that lack of love such did not possess for their fellow men........

    I am of the opionion moderation and the avoidance of extremeism is beneficial to the beleiver.

     People are in all different enviroments..some of us live in relatively 'safe' neighborhoods.  Some don't.

     I slept with a 22 by my bed..when out in the country and alone..and a serial murderer had already tortured and killed 5 women.  The

  man drove within 2 miles of my house to dump the body.  And I do beleive I would have used it if someone broke in.


    Now ,it is easy to say.. "I would never...."..but  you are not supposed to judge your brother'judge not,lest ye be judged"


     a far as it depends on you...be peaceable with all men....sometimes you are for peace and love..and others are for war and hate....

   God placed 'governments' in place to restrain lawlessness..and we are to  respect this authority. EVEN THE GOVERNMENTS DON'T CONDEMN

  A MAN DEFENDING HIMSELF IN HIS HOME..  The Government[Roman authorities] didn't condemn Jesus either..except at the pressure

from Pharisee sadducee religious leaders..

[Ken]

Hello Wayfaring Stranger,

Thank you for your reply. Let me relate to you my experience in the U.S. Navy (in 1968-69, at the height of the Viet Nam War). Declaring oneself to be a "conscientious objector" meant that you had to go through a six month interrogation of one's beliefs. High ranking officers would grill you on them. The key argument they would throw at you was precisely the one being discussed in this string. Someone breaks into your home and threatens you and/or your family. What do you do?

They were just dying for me to say, "Well, I would get a weapon and defend myself and my family". Had  I said that, I would have instantly been denied CO status. You see, there is no difference between the "intruder" situation and participating in or supporting wars of aggression (always fought under the pretense of national defense). The only difference is the scale of the situation.

So, the real issue here is, "Should Christians support or participate in warfare and violence - whether it be a local criminal - or a perceived enemy country on the other side of the world?"

If we look to Jesus for the answer, He said:

    Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. Matthew 26:52

I find no other admonition in the Bible for Christians to take matters into their own hands. And, the Apostles never made any such suggestion, either.

If anyone has any scriptures to the contrary, I would appreciate seeing them. I am open minded on all matters.

Thank you again for your reply.

Ken

Hello Wayfaring Stranger,

I too was in the Navy during the height of the Viet Nam war. I soon became a conscientious objector and was honorably discharged at a time when things like that just didn't happen. I give God full credit for that.

I have since written an article on that very subject:

http://ernestlmartin.com/index8.htm#conscientious

As for your question regarding shooting people in self defense, there are three issues here:

First, if you own a gun, then you are more likely to attract a situation where you would be tempted to use it. Guns are instruments of death. They serve no other useful purpose.

Second, if you own a gun, you are by default stating that God cannot or will not protect you. Our faith in God should supersede any type of weapon of defense. You can't have it both ways.

Third, there is no New Testament biblical validation for using weapons. Jesus didn't use them or endorse them.

I hope this helps.

Ken

Well to be clear I bought a gun about 6 years ago and I don't conceal and carry it around with me.  It stays in my closet and sometimes I forget I own it.  In the 6 years I've owned it I've went to a range to shoot it once.  So I don't know that I attract any situations to me because of my firearm.  I hang on to it I guess because I hope that if someone does try to break in perhaps my gun will deter them if it's presented.  Now it's true that God can protect me far better than I could protect myself but God doesn't always send down angels or bolts of lightning from the sky to serve His purposes, sometimes He uses us humans.  Perhaps the deterrence of my gun would be God's chosen method of protecting me?

Do I want to kill someone?  No.  Do I carry my firearm around with me looking for trouble?  No, not at all.  However if I felt my daughter was in danger I would pray about it, looking to the Lord for answers.  Perhaps I would have to shoot the assailant, perhaps not.  But I believe that everything that happens is the Will of God so perhaps if I have to shoot that was just how that person was supposed to die.  Or maybe he gets shot and lives but it was a wake up call to that person and God uses that moment to draw the assailant unto Him.  I don't know, but if put in that situation I would have to trust in God to give me the right answers as it was happening.

[Ken]

Hello ded2daworld,

Thank you for your reply.

If someone is being assaulted, one's first reaction should be to instantly pray and ask God to intervene. The second reaction would be to physically intervene. To not do that would be to deny one's own family - and Christianity.

As for Jesus mentioning the two swords, that is because swords were used for a wide variety of uses in those days. Any more than that would have been perceived as being a "threat". And, He was already being accused of rebellion.

As for the God ordained wars of the Old Testament, they are not applicable to the Christian philosophy. Christ nor the Apostles ever endorsed physical violence against another human being. If you have any scriptures to the contrary, I would love to see them. Thanks, again.  :Peace2:

Ken

Ken wrote "Third, there is no New Testament biblical validation for using weapons. Jesus didn't use them or endorse them."
Saying we shouldn't use weapons because Jesus didn't use them is like saying we shouldn't use medicines or life saving surgery because Jesus didn't use them.
I also believe it's wrong to say that Jesus didn't endorse them. He asked if the disciples had any swords once and they replied that they had 2. Jesus then said "that is enough", he did not say "we need more or that we need less or none"
Not endorsing something is not the same as endorsing something else - in this case owning a weapon of protection.
Jesus is a reality God and the reality is that there are people out there that will take your life for a few dollars. If they are stopped, you have saved not only yourself but others since most are repeat offenders.
Suppose a sick (with sin) person was on top of your daughter or grandaughter or wife, stabbing, trying to kill them?
Do you just watch? Do you throw up a hurried prayer for their safety? Do you ask them politely in the name of Jesus to stop?
Do you ask them to get up from there and drink some poison?
NO, you shoot them if you have a gun knowing that God sorts us all out and forgives us all ultimately.
"Resisting evil" is for us to resist other evil people. Fleeing from evil is when evil is upon us personally.
BTW, I have a baseball bat by my bedside and I wouldn't even hesitate to bash in the brains of the perpetrator in the above scenario.
So judge my spirituality or "trusting" the Lord if you will, I have long ago settled this matter and Father has NOT told me different.
When God told David to wipe out every man woman and child of an evil group, David would have been "on the outs" with God for not obeying. David the "man after God's own heart" obeyed God by removing evil as instructed. Also, how evil were the children slaughtered?

[sheila]

what about Cornelius the centurion in the Italian regiment? 

[jabcat]

what about Cornelius the centurion in the Italian regiment?

:thumbsup:  good find..hadn't thought of him..

enjoyed your testimony earlier in this thread sheila..at peace as much as lies within you

reasonable, of good purpose, clean conscience before the Lord

[sheila]

 :thumbsup:  Jabcat!

[Deena]

C.S. Lewis has an interesting take on this topic. I believe the essay is titled "Why I am not a pacifist," and he reflects on his own experiences in Britain as Hitler was bombing them day and night. Because evil exists, it is not of his opinion that pacifism works.

[jabcat]

C.S. Lewis has an interesting take on this topic. I believe the essay is titled "Why I am not a pacifist," and he reflects on his own experiences in Britain as Hitler was bombing them day and night. Because evil exists, it is not of his opinion that pacifism works.

:thumbsup:  It's kind of complicated for me Deena.  I DON"T believe in instigating trouble (including militarily provoking and attacking other countries.  If that were the mission, I'd probably be a conscientious objector.  Admittedly, our own government is filled with such evil it's hard to tell the difference).  I DO believe in avoiding trouble if I can.  I Do believe in trusting God first.  But I also believe in self defense, of self, and other innocents, including fellow countrymen if truly under attack (not phony, aggressive, manufactured/self-serving conquests).

I DO believe God heals and protects!  But I also believe God gives us things like medicine, proper foods, seat belts, the sense to stay out of the middle of the road, and the means by which to protect our families and ourselves IF NECESSARY.  God DOES protect and provide for us in our inabilities and according to His will.

Here's what I'm willing to do, with God's help and provision, with anyone who doesn't take reasonable, God-provided precautions;

If you and your family and myself are walking along a city street, and a guy with a gun/knife approaches us in a threatening manner;  you and I will both pray "God help us".  You spend more time in prayer than me, because I'll also be drawing "means" to physically stop the assaulter if he continues to show ill intent.  If our prayers are answered by an angel appearing, by God knocking the fellow to his knees, making him run, or making him pass out, we'll all rejoice.  If God's intervention is instead, providing me the means with which to protect us all, gives me nerve/courage, guides my hand and means of self-defense to meet its mark, then we'll also give Him thanks.  His will be done.   Every good gift is from above.

On the other hand, if in the midst of it, you absolutely insist I let you and/or your wife and children be raped, savaged, murdered, I might be able to honor your wishes and only protect myself.  But it would probably be difficult.

[Molly]

wow!  concealed carry!  Jab is my hero!   :banana: :banana:

[jabcat]

haha, Molly, you're funny.  i'm really a chicken!   bawk, bawk, bawk    :rolllol:

You and maybe everybody has heard this old story, but this thread reminded me of it..sorry if you've heard it so many times you're sick of it..just slide on by and give me a break  lol

"Once a town was devastated by flooding waters. Families crawled to their rooftops waiting to be rescued. An old man sat on his roof and prayed. "Dear Lord, Please save me from this flood" After a while a boat came by loaded with rescuers and victims. "Come with us, we will take you to safety", they cried. The old man told them, "No Thank you, My Lord will Save me". Once more the same boat came by. "Please sir, let us save you". Again he turned them down. "My Lord will save me" he said. Hours went by and the old man looked around. All of the other families had been taken from their roofs to safety. "Where are you Lord?" He prayed. Just then a helicopter came and lowered a basket. "Please sir, get in the basket and let us take you to dry land" they yelled. "My Lord will save me" he told them and pushed the basket away. The next day the waters rose over the rooftops and the man was swept away and he drowned. When he got to Heaven he asked his Father, "Lord I prayed and prayed, why did you not save me?" The Lord replied, "Old man, I sent you two boats and a helicopter."

[Molly]

Yes, that's a great story. lol

I just saw a recreation of an event where a man walked into a shopping mall with a shotgun and just started shooting people randomly.  Fortunately, there was an off duty policeman there with his gun, and he was able to engage the shooter in gunfire until the police could get there.  Otherwise, who knows how many would have died.  This stuff makes me crazy and it is going to happen again.  I can't stand the thought of innocent, helpless people being massacred by a coward while they go about their daily lives, with no means of protecting themselves.



The Trolley Square shooting was a mass murder that occurred on the evening of February 12, 2007, at Trolley Square Mall in Salt Lake City, Utah, United States. A lone gunman Sulejman Talović killed five bystanders and wounded four others before being shot dead by police. The FBI was not able to determine a motive, declaring it was not an act of terrorism. As Talović was heard to shout "Allahu Akbar" on a video of the rampage, others disagreed and suggested religious radicalism as a possible motive.[1]



On February 12, 2007, at 6:44 PM MST, Sulejman Talović began a deadly shooting spree in Trolley Square resulting in the deaths of five bystanders and the shooter himself,[2] as well as the wounding of at least four others. Talović was described as wearing a white shirt, a tan trenchcoat and a mullet.[3] He carried both a shotgun with a pistol grip and a 38-caliber handgun with rubber grips,[4] as well as a backpack full of ammunition.[5]

The gunman's rampage was stopped after trading shots with off-duty police officer Kenneth Hammond of the Ogden City Police Department and Sgt. Andrew Oblad of the Salt Lake City Police Department. The final confrontation, in which Talović was killed, occurred in the Pottery Barn Kids home furnishing store.[6] Hammond was at Trolley Square having an early Valentine's Day dinner with his pregnant wife, 911 dispatcher Sarita Hammond, when they heard gunshots. Sarita Hammond borrowed a waiter's cell phone to call 911.[7] Talović was cornered and was shooting at officers, until an active shooter contact team composed of Salt Lake City PD SWAT team members arrived and shot him. Salt Lake City police officials on February 13, 2007, thanked Hammond as a hero for saving countless lives.[5]

According to local TV station KTVX, several witnesses reported that most of the shooting took place on the ground floor near the Pottery Barn store, though the majority of the dead were found in Cabin Fever, a card store. One of the victims, having been shot, apparently entered the nearby Hard Rock Cafe and told customers to lock the doors. Several victims were transported to local hospitals, some in critical condition.[2]

One of the victims was a 16-year-old boy, A.J. Walker, made it to a passerby's car with a wound to the side of his head; another, Cedric Wilson, an employee at Rodizio Grill, was fired at twice but suffered only a graze on his head.[8]


---Wikipedia

[jabcat]

Very sad Molly.  Sad.

Not endorsing something is not the same as endorsing something else - in this case owning a weapon of protection.
Jesus is a reality God and the reality is that there are people out there that will take your life for a few dollars. If they are stopped, you have saved not only yourself but others since most are repeat offenders.
... knowing that God sorts us all out and forgives us all ultimately.

Wow!  An actual UR tie-in - which is what we're supposed to be doing here!   :laugh:  Ded gets the official "TM UR Blue Ribbon Award" for this thread!

:gthumbsup: :dsunny: :Peace2:

[jabcat]

Maybe we keep this open just a little longer.  Many views have been expressed, different ways of examining scriptures, with "conscientious"and "conscience" being mentioned multiple times.  Let's see if there's something else truly UR-related, more so than just "arguing" over whether a believer should protect themselves or other innocents...

Let each one be fully persuaded in his own mind. One keeps the day as unto the Lord, another does not keep the day as unto the Lord.  For none of us lives for ourselves alone, and none of us dies for ourselves alone.  If we live, we live for the Lord; and if we die, we die for the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.

[lomarah]

I am certainly for as much peace as possible. However everybody knows that if a mother senses that her children are being threatened she will turn into a NINJA and you do not want to be on the receiving end of that wrath... I am also of the opinion that God gave men a certain extra sensitive area for a reason and if a woman is being threatened in any way she should 100% use that to her advantage. Of course these are only my opinions.  :winkgrin:

One day we'll be free of all of this ridiculousness and we won't have to think twice about these things! Hallelujah to that! Oh for the day when He frees the whole creation... I CAN'T WAIT!!

[lomarah]

There we go jab, I got my two cents in before you shut it down... and I even added something UR related at the end for you, before I read your post, go me!  :cheerleader:

[jabcat]

 :dsunny:   

[sheila]

Glad for that tie-in to Universal salvation. I had 'googled' some and read an article based on

  pure 'pacifiscm"  the reasoning was if you died..the one who murdered you would possibly repent

and you save his life from eternal hell. 

   another thought I had on this was..we have to be careful of calling good evil and evil good...

   when a christian..who robs and wrongs no-one..is sleeping in his own bed...and a robber

murderer breaks in...and the christian defends his life...how is he deemed the evil one?

  but that is what some judge..with such comments aas, not be worthy to be called a christian..etc.

  no 'true' christian etc etc.

   I have a low threshold for such things..coming from a very legalistic  'religion" that did forbid

handguns etc.   So when I see such mindset being expressed..or something similiar...

   such as  'don't say cross,say stake" it is not a church say kingdomhall..do this don't do tht

etc..rule upon rule that exceeds what the scriptures speak......

  I have something of a knee-jerk reaction.  I've been in spiritual bondage..and appreciate

my freedom.  There are also newly come out ones that I do not want to see entrapped by that

  mindset,that are very vulnerable to some-one imposing their conscience on them


...  just as those gentil new ones who beleived were

  " troubled" by the circumcision group coming,and Paul had to address that issue

[lomarah]

Oh Sheila, good word sis!! Amen amen and AMEN!!! FREEDOM!!!! Don't any of you trade your freedom in the Spirit for ANYTHING. For "where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is FREEDOM". And "you shall know the truth, and the TRUTH shall make you FREE".  :dsunny:

[Warhawk17]

I'm not the person who will ever look to start something, but if somebody attacks me and tries to hurt me or my family, you can bet I will defend myself, whether it's with a gun or my own two fists. I believe that men should be very protective over their wives and children and do anything to assure their protection. I'm all for being peaceful, but there are times where you need to defend yourself.

On a side note, I do respect the troops for their bravery and feel sympathy for the families with people in the military. That must be so hard having a loved one overseas. I am not a fan of wars and violence, but unfortunately that is just part of this eon that we have to deal with. God has a purpose for wars and violence, and we know that one day they will all be a thing of the past, and we will all be brothers or sisters. That is truly a beautiful thought!

[eaglesway]

Hello Eaglesway,

I certainly am not judging any one here. I'm just trying to share my lifetime of research on this important subject.

Would you please be kind enough to let me know exactly which scriptures you are referring to? Thanks!  :Peace2:

Ken

Actually, Ken, you may be incorrect. There is a New Testament validation for using weapons. Paul said the sword is born by the lawgiver for the restraining of lawbreakers. John the Baaptist, when instructing soldiers.....did not tell them to put away their weapons... he instructed them on the righteous use of there powers.

Although I agree with your general conclusion about gun ownership and our faith in God.... You have exceeded the scriptures in your statement at that point.

So, I will re-iterate that we ought not judge, but discuss our opinions about such things in a spirit of fellowship- not a spirit of presenting absolutes that are simplistic and protrayed as representing the whole biblical view when they actually maybe don't :o)

Romans 13:3,4

[micah7:9]

Hello Eaglesway,

I certainly am not judging any one here. I'm just trying to share my lifetime of research on this important subject.

Would you please be kind enough to let me know exactly which scriptures you are referring to? Thanks!  :Peace2:

Ken

Actually, Ken, you may be incorrect. There is a New Testament validation for using weapons. Paul said the sword is born by the lawgiver for the restraining of lawbreakers. John the Baaptist, when instructing soldiers.....did not tell them to put away their weapons... he instructed them on the righteous use of there powers.

Although I agree with your general conclusion about gun ownership and our faith in God.... You have exceeded the scriptures in your statement at that point.

So, I will re-iterate that we ought not judge, but discuss our opinions about such things in a spirit of fellowship- not a spirit of presenting absolutes that are simplistic and protrayed as representing the whole biblical view when they actually maybe don't :o)

Romans 13:3,4

:HeartThrob: :dsunny: :dsunny: