Trinity Discussion, split from "Something I Just Read"

[Molly]

God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself.  This word implies a mutual change.  That means that both parties have to reconcile [change something] for the word reconcile to take effect. 



"reconcile"
G2644
καταλλάσσω
katallassō
kat-al-las'-so
From G2596 and G236; to change mutually, that is, (figuratively) to compound a difference: - reconcile.


Who is being reconciled to whom in 2 Cor 5: 19?   Are both parties being reconciled in that verse?

And why is reconciliation even needed?

You don't have a reconciliation if only one party agrees to reconcile, do you?

Somthing ReFormer  said , Jesus wants His body Back , Jesus is raising the dead   , its His body   that is being reconciled to the Living God again

Something really remarkable was happening on the cross.  I can't even put it into words.  Maybe someone can.

The beloved Son in a man's body carrying every sin known to man before the most Holy God to whom he is the most beloved.  What could happen?

I will forgive their iniquities and I will remember their sins no more. [Jer 31:34]

[redhotmagma]

God was in Christ.

We can get real heavy into English grammar here, as an object lesson.

Christ was the container. Hebrews 1 "He is the radiance of the Father's glory and exact representation of His nature"

Col 1 "For so it pleased the Father to make all the fulness dwell in Him"

Col 2 "He is the fulness of the deity in bodily form"


Why doesnt it say, "The Anointed One was God reconciling the world unto Himself."  Christ means Anointed One.

Anointed with what?   Anointed with God? Anointed with the Spirit of God?

When did Jesus receive the Spirit without measure?  Clearly it was after His resurrection. "He that believes in me out of his innermost being shall spring a fountain of living water. In this he was speaking of the holy spirit which was to be given to all those who believe- but the spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified." (johns gospel chapter 7 I think)

Jesus had to be glorified before he could receive the spirit without measure.

"This same Jesus whom you crucified has been raised from the dead and raised to the right hand of His Father where he received the Holy Spirit and poured forth that which you do now both see and hear."

IMO All the fulness of God did not dwell in Jesus until after He was resurrected and exalted and glorified.

We will not be "filled up to all the fulness of God(Eph 3)"until we are resurrected and glorified.

How does Jesus not know the exact day or the hour(No man know the hour not even the Son, but only the Father(Mt24) .

Was God "in Jesus"? Clearly He was. Was Jesus God? Logically it follows that if Jesus was God as he walked the earth either he was under severe restraints upon his power or He would not have said, "I have a task to do and Oh how I am constrained until it is accomplished".

He knew that after His resurrection He would be glorified and anointed with "All the fulness of God"- He would become "the fountainhead of the spirit of God".

Now, these thoughts do not prove anything about the construction of the deity(Father Son SPirit)- they just raise interesting questions that the major doctrinal positions all have trouble dealing with completely, and the reason for saying that will follow in my next post.

:thumbsup: those are some thoughts I've been meaning to bring up,

Jesus was the container, the tabernacle of flesh with the Spirit of God residing in  :dsunny:

[rosered]

 :iagree:    Amen John ,

AMEN !!!  Let it be so , you    are able to describe     , Gods gifted you !!!! 

a better ressurection its Jesus !! :HeartThrob:  the old and New As ONE in fullness !!

[Molly]

IMO All the fulness of God did not dwell in Jesus until after He was resurrected and exalted and glorified.

We will not be "filled up to all the fulness of God(Eph 3)"until we are resurrected and glorified.

I think you are forgetting the transfiguration.  I can't do that.  Can you?


As the men watched, Jesus' appearance was transformed so that his face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as light.

--Mat 17:2


We will be like him but he is the Unique Son.

[micah7:9]

"I think you are forgetting the transfiguration.  I can't do that.  Can you?"

Are you forgetting it was a vision?
Mat 17:9  And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

[eaglesway]

I really think this discussion has gone pretty well considering the subject matter- but I just felt led to write this.....

The spirit of division and an attitude of contention.

We can calculate our own progress in maturing as disciples of Jesus, by how well we are able to maintain a discussion in which we do not see all things the same without opening the door to a spirit of division and a contentious attitude.

Whenever we think that the subject matter we are discussing is so holy that we do not have to be holy as we discuss it, we are deceived.

What is holiness? It is just being like Jesus. It is just living the word we are discussing as we discuss it.

"And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome, but must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. Opponents must be gently instructed....." 2 Tim 2

This verse follows after the verses about "..in a wide house there are many vessels, some for noble, some for ignoble use..."

Ignoble use is unholy use. Unholy use is that which is steeped in contentiousness and disrespect.

Now supposedly we are not "opponents", "trapped in the snare of the devil"...we are brothers and sisters in Christ discussing mysteries of God- so we ought to be all the more....not quarrelsome, gentle, etc.

"The wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, then easily entreated, full of mercy and good fruit and the seed whose fruit is righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace." James 3

That is of course, unless we are discussing one of the religious idols in the temple of theology  :rolllol:  Then we are permitted to engage different spirits in our conversations and at the point in which it is no longer a discussion.....but becomes rather the defense of "the truth"-  we are now permitted to be "unholy" if necessary because after all, God, and His Gospel- are depending upon us. We can't afford to appear to be "reasonable and peaceable" or someone might get the idea that we are lukewarm about what we believe!!

What is holiness? It is kindness, gentleness, wisdom, tolerance, forbearance, peaceableness- all those things we often lose grasp of when we are "Defending the truth"- LOL

All those things that are "so much less important" than the doctrine we are defending.

I think God purposely left grey areas so that "control freaks" who need to tie it all up in a neat package, "one way or the other" -would be sent on a quest that never ends until they break down and are no longer knowledge based.....but grow into a foundation based in wisdom and understanding, and place a priority on allowing others t express their different views without getting into a spirit of contention and division.

I thank God and Praise Him with all my heart that He is not nearly as concerned about details as we are............ :laugh:

[Molly]

"I think you are forgetting the transfiguration.  I can't do that.  Can you?"

Are you forgetting it was a vision?
Mat 17:9  And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

Three witnesses, remember?  All three witnessed it.

"vision'

G3705
ὅραμα
horama
hor'-am-ah
From G3708; something gazed at, that is, a spectacle (especially supernatural): - sight, vision.


Oh, and it just happens to signify ...wait for it...the feast of Tabernacles!




4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
--Mat 17

[jabcat]

we are now permitted to be "unholy" if necessary because after all, God, and His Gospel- are depending upon us. We can't afford to appear to be "reasonable and peaceable" or someone might get the idea that we are lukewarm about what we believe!!

What is holiness? It is kindness, gentleness, wisdom, tolerance, forbearance, peaceableness- all those things we often lose grasp of when we are "Defending the truth"- LOL

All those things that are "so much less important" than the doctrine we are defending.

I think God purposely left grey areas so that "control freaks" who need to tie it all up in a neat package, "one way or the other" -would be sent on a quest that never ends until they break down and are no longer knowledge based.....but grow into a foundation based in wisdom and understanding, and place a priority on allowing others t express their different views without getting into a spirit of contention and division.

Yes, I agree.  And I can relate... :mblush:

[micah7:9]

Some good points. :dsunny:

[eaglesway]

we are now permitted to be "unholy" if necessary because after all, God, and His Gospel- are depending upon us. We can't afford to appear to be "reasonable and peaceable" or someone might get the idea that we are lukewarm about what we believe!!

What is holiness? It is kindness, gentleness, wisdom, tolerance, forbearance, peaceableness- all those things we often lose grasp of when we are "Defending the truth"- LOL

All those things that are "so much less important" than the doctrine we are defending.

I think God purposely left grey areas so that "control freaks" who need to tie it all up in a neat package, "one way or the other" -would be sent on a quest that never ends until they break down and are no longer knowledge based.....but grow into a foundation based in wisdom and understanding, and place a priority on allowing others t express their different views without getting into a spirit of contention and division.

Yes, I agree.  And I can relate... :mblush:

All this I learned through experience.

I once read a sign that said, "Good judgment comes from experience"

Three days later I drove by and the sign said, "Experience comes from bad judgment" :rolllol:

[micah7:9]

So I am understanding that both EW and Jab feel this discussion and thread has probably run it's course? On that I would probably agree. :HeartThrob: :dsunny:

[jabcat]

I don't mind if folks want to keep chatting, since it's been pretty civil.  I don't know if anything further's going to be shown though for now.   :dontknow:  Quite a bit's been said.

I just agree with several of the points John made.  As sort of a control freak sometimes, I can relate to the idea that God sort of empties us and then keeps us digging (and hopefully open).  I've often thought, the more I seem to find out, I realize I know so very little.  I'm just truly dependent on His grace and mercy.  I believe we're supposed to absolutely grow in grace and knowledge, and contend for sound doctrine (as best we understand).  But it's also in the big picture kind'a like Zender said - God drives the car, and He lets us play with the windows and door locks.   :wink2:

[micah7:9]

I only take exception to " As sort of a control freak sometimes...." if a truth which is an absolute, and if to express that truth falls in the catalog as a control freak, then I will accept that label. I mean no offence, but discussions, debates even arguments usually either have a solid truth as the cornerstone, or an untruth or part truth.
If we all are going to embrace religion as our faith, then yes any discussion, debate, or argument will roll on and on. I/me personally do not accept religion as my faith. I believe in Christ crucified, His cleansing Blood, and that I am crucified with Christ and being baptized in Christ who is My Lord, Christ in me my hope of Glory. :HeartThrob:

[Molly]

Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.  Mat 17:3




Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible



And behold there appeared unto them,.... The disciples:

Moses and Elias; Moses the giver of the law, and Elias one of the chief of the prophets: one of them had been dead near a thousand and five hundred years, and the other had been caught up to heaven, about nine hundred years before this. The Jews sometimes speak of these two as together. They say (c),

"that the Shekinah never descends below, but , "Moses and Elias" ascend above.''

Yea, they expect that these two will come together in future time; for so they represent  a God saying to Moses;

"Moses, as thou hast given thy life for them (the Israelites) in this world, so in time to come (the days of the Messiah) when I shall bring Elias the prophet, , "you two shall come together".''

Now they came. Luke says, they appeared "in glory": in glorious bodies, in a glory upon their bodies; like, though inferior, to the glorious body of Christ, now transfigured: that they appeared in their own real bodies, no doubt need be made; about the body of Elijah, or Elias, there is no difficulty; since he was carried soul and body to heaven, he died not, but was changed; and has ever since remained in a glorious body, in which he doubtless now appeared: and why this should not be the case of Moses, or why he should appear in another body, and not his own, I see not; for though he died, yet he was buried by the Lord, and no man ever knew the place of his sepulchre; and there was a dispute about his body, between Michael and the devil, all which are uncommon circumstances: so that it might be, that his body was, quickly after his death, raised and restored to him; or at this time, as a pledge of the resurrection of the dead, as Christ's transfiguration was of his glory. The Jews have a notion that Moses is not dead, but is ascended, and stands and ministers to God, in the highest heavens (e): the appearance of these two with Christ, was to show, that Christ is the end of the law and prophets; that there is an entire agreement between him and them, and that they have their full accomplishment in him; and also shows, that he was neither Elias, nor any of the prophets, as some took him to be; since he was distinct from them, and the chief and more glorious than any of them. If it should be asked; how came the disciples to know these two to be Moses and Elias, since they never saw them before, nor could have any statues or pictures of them, these being not allowed among the Jews; nor do the accounts of them in Scripture seem to be sufficient to direct them to such a thought; especially, since by their glorification, they must be greatly altered: it may be replied, they knew them, either by immediate divine revelation, or by the discourse that passed between them and Christ; for it follows,

talking with him.


What Moses and Elias were talking with our Lord about, is expressed by Luke; see Gill on Luke 9:31.



28 And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray.

29 And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering.

30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:

31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.

32 But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him.

33 And it came to pass, as they departed from him, Peter said unto Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias: not knowing what he said.

34 While he thus spake, there came a cloud, and overshadowed them: and they feared as they entered into the cloud.

35 And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.

36 And when the voice was past, Jesus was found alone. And they kept it close, and told no man in those days any of those things which they had seen.

--Luke 9



Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

Who appeared in glory,.... In a very glorious manner, in most divine and beautiful forms to Christ, and to his disciples:

and spake of his decease, which he should accomplish at Jerusalem; the word, rendered "decease", is "Exodus", the name of the second book of Moses; so called from the departure of the children of Israel out of Egypt, it gives an account of; and which departure is expressed by this word, in Hebrews 11:22 and to which the allusion is here. Death is a departure out of this world, and goes by this name, 2 Peter 1:15 and so here it signifies Christ's death, or exit, which he was to make at Jerusalem; and Moses and Elias talk with him about this; the nature, manner, use, and near approach of it; and to which they might encourage him, as man. The sufferings and death of Christ were what Moses and the prophets had foretold; and these two speak of the same things now; and which must serve to confirm what Christ a few, days ago had showed his disciples, that he must go to Jerusalem, and there suffer and die. Dr. Lightfoot thinks that the ascension of Christ to heaven is contained in the word "Exodus", which was his final departure out of this world, as well as his sufferings and death; and especially if there is any, allusion to the Israelites' departure out of Egypt, which was in victory and triumph; and the rather, because "the time of his receiving up", Luke 9:51 may be thought to refer to this; and so Moses and Elias conversed with him, not only about, his sufferings and death; but his ascension, and of which also the "Exodus", or going of Elias out of this world to heaven, which was by a translation and ascension, was a figure. Some render this word, "Expedition", and think it refers to the whole affair of the redemption of Christ's people by him, from the bondage of sin, Satan, and the law, by his sufferings and death; of which the deliverance of the people of Israel out of Egypt was a lively representation: an expedition which Moses was sent upon, and accomplished: but now the discourse turns upon an expedition of greater importance, which shortly was to be accomplished at Jerusalem, where Christ was to be arraigned, and condemned, and then suffer without the gates of it, in order to obtain eternal redemption for the whole Israel of God.

[dajomaco]

Molly does Gill believe in the Trinity and by extension part of the reason you believe?

[mplsfitter539]

Well since Molly appears to be the only trinitarian here and she isn't going to give up her "3 in 1 blessed trinity" I agree this thread has run its course. The upside is that all of the guests here on this site have probably learned much from our discussion. So UR doesn't mean that we all agree on some things but most UR believers tend to throw out all of the traditions of men like the trinity theory. I came to this site to learn what other UR believers hold as truth and this tread is great conformation to me that the trinity theory is not believed by most UR believers. If I had been on the fence about this subject I would now be convinced that the conclusion I came to about the trinity theory before coming to Tentmaker was and is totally correct.

DuWayne

[eaglesway]

Genuinely curious what Gill thinks about UR.

[Molly]

Molly does Gill believe in the Trinity and by extension part of the reason you believe?

I don't even know who Gill is or what he believes.  I just thought that what he wrote about the transfiguration is beautiful.

Can you believe that in talking with Moses about his upcoming death on the cross, Jesus used the word 'exodus' ? --when he spake of his decease [exodus]--Lk 9:31

The Bible never ceases to amaze me.


"decease"

G1841
εξοδος
exodus
ex'-od-os
From G1537 and G3598; an exit, that is, (figuratively) death: - decease, departing.

[jabcat]

Molly does Gill believe in the Trinity and by extension part of the reason you believe?

I don't even know who Gill is or what he believes.  I just thought that what he wrote about the transfiguration is beautiful.

Can you believe that in talking with Moses about his upcoming death on the cross, Jesus used the word 'exodus' ? --when he spake of his decease [exodus]--Lk 9:31

The Bible never ceases to amaze me.


"decease"

G1841
εξοδος
exodus
ex'-od-os
From G1537 and G3598; an exit, that is, (figuratively) death: - decease, departing.

:thumbsup:

[micah7:9]

Molly does Gill believe in the Trinity and by extension part of the reason you believe?

:iagree:

[micah7:9]

Molly does Gill believe in the Trinity and by extension part of the reason you believe?

I don't even know who Gill is or what he believes.  I just thought that what he wrote about the transfiguration is beautiful.

Can you believe that in talking with Moses about his upcoming death on the cross, Jesus used the word 'exodus' ? --when he spake of his decease [exodus]--Lk 9:31

The Bible never ceases to amaze me.


"decease"

G1841
εξοδος
exodus
ex'-od-os
From G1537 and G3598; an exit, that is, (figuratively) death: - decease, departing.

:thumbsup:

Didn't every one here already know what Jesus meant with "decrease"? Luk 9:31  who having appeared in glory, spake of his outgoing that he was about to fulfil in Jerusalem, "(YLT)

I fail to see any significance with the word "exodus."
Can you believe that Jesus used the "horama" [something gazed at] for vision?
Mat 17:9  And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the horama[something gazed at] to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

[Molly]

The way the Greek language is used tells us the Holy Spirit is a person.   


Jesus sent "another comforter": ("allos parakletos") Jn 14:16 Greek "allos" another of the same kind. Even if you reject that Jesus is God, another of the same kind as Jesus must be a person! The Arian view would require the word "hetros" another of a different kind. So the Holy Spirit is a person who is a "comforter, helper, advocate". Used of the Holy Spirit 5 times in John 14:26; 15:26; 16:7; 14:16 and once of Christ in 1 John 2:1. When we combine this with the fact that Jesus said the Holy Spirit was another helper, Gr "allos", "another of the same kind", the personality of the Holy Spirit is reinforced even stronger. The Greek word "parakletos" that is used in all these verses was always applied to persons, not things. So the fact that both Greek words "allos" and "parakletos" TOGETHER in the same phrase in reference to Jesus is irrefutable proof that the Holy Spirit is portrayed as a person. In Acts 9:31 Christians were "walking in the fear of the Lord and the comfort of the Holy Spirit." The word, "Comfort" [parakleses] is the verb form of the noun parakletos.





Comforter, helper, advocate: "parakletos"
The word means, "lit., called to one's side, i.e., to one's aid, is primarily a verbal adjective, and suggests the capability or adaptability for giving aid. It was used in a court of justice to denote a legal assistant, counsel for the defence, an advocate; then, generally, one who pleads another's cause, an intercessor, advocate" (Comforter, W. E. Vine) For such a word to be applied to the Holy Spirit demands he is a person.




http://www.bible.ca/trinity/trinity-holy-spirit-personality-deity.htm

[eaglesway]

The way the Greek language is used tells us the Holy Spirit is a person.   


Jesus sent "another comforter": ("allos parakletos") Jn 14:16 Greek "allos" another of the same kind. Even if you reject that Jesus is God, another of the same kind as Jesus must be a person! The Arian view would require the word "hetros" another of a different kind. So the Holy Spirit is a person who is a "comforter, helper, advocate". Used of the Holy Spirit 5 times in John 14:26; 15:26; 16:7; 14:16 and once of Christ in 1 John 2:1. When we combine this with the fact that Jesus said the Holy Spirit was another helper, Gr "allos", "another of the same kind", the personality of the Holy Spirit is reinforced even stronger. The Greek word "parakletos" that is used in all these verses was always applied to persons, not things. So the fact that both Greek words "allos" and "parakletos" TOGETHER in the same phrase in reference to Jesus is irrefutable proof that the Holy Spirit is portrayed as a person. In Acts 9:31 Christians were "walking in the fear of the Lord and the comfort of the Holy Spirit." The word, "Comfort" [parakleses] is the verb form of the noun parakletos.





Comforter, helper, advocate: "parakletos"
The word means, "lit., called to one's side, i.e., to one's aid, is primarily a verbal adjective, and suggests the capability or adaptability for giving aid. It was used in a court of justice to denote a legal assistant, counsel for the defence, an advocate; then, generally, one who pleads another's cause, an intercessor, advocate" (Comforter, W. E. Vine) For such a word to be applied to the Holy Spirit demands he is a person.




http://www.bible.ca/trinity/trinity-holy-spirit-personality-deity.htm

The issue between trinitarians and non trinitarians is not always wheter the Holy Spirit is a person. I believe the Holy SPirit is a person....He is the Spirit of God, I just dont believe the Holy SPirit is a third person separate but somehow one with and co-equal to the Father.

[Molly]

How can a person not be 'separate from' another person?

"person"

2. An individual of specified character:


One way I can think of that has supernatural overtones:

the two shall become one flesh

[micah7:9]

Take a look at "person" as a word study in the Bible.