Self Defense

[Wayfaring Stranger]

I have a question I've been struggling with ever since the Lord called me back to Him.  I was in the military when I was younger but through circumstances that happened that are beyond the scope of my post I got separated from the Marine Corps early after only two years of service and I was spared having to be deployed.  Now from what I can read from the Scriptures I believe that we as followers of Jesus Christ, the Prince of Peace, are called to abstain from service in the military.  I believe we are called to what most would refer to as "pacifism."

I'm fine with that but my question more refers to my personal life.  I know that as a believer in Christ I'm not to seek out fights or altercations.  However what if my home is broken into, am I allowed to defend myself from attack?  Or more importantly to me what about defending my wife and daughter?  I know Jesus admonished us to lay down our weapons because "he who lives by the sword dies by the sword" and He would not allow His Apostles to take up arms to defend Him.  Would shooting my potential attacker be showing a lack of trust in God's plan?  It's an issue I struggle with back and forth in my mind so any answers I would appreciate.

[micah7:9]

I believe one has to work that out with the Lord through prayer. You are correct I believe when you show  how Jesus spoke and walked and what the Bible teaches. Walking in the Spirit is what we all are learning, yet have not attained.
Great question... I am a Marine Viet Nam era, own a shot gun, handgun, and rifle and my emotions are just as mixed as yours on your question. I have been praying about it for years, the one thing that roars it's ugly head is common sense, which belongs to the carnal man, there is no common sense in the new man, he is led by the spirit. Well, I don't believe I helped much. :HeartThrob: :dsunny: Semper Fi..just thought I'd add that :)

[redhotmagma]

I believe one has to work that out with the Lord through prayer. You are correct I believe when you show  how Jesus spoke and walked and what the Bible teaches. Walking in the Spirit is what we all are learning, yet have not attained.
Great question... I am a Marine Viet Nam era, own a shot gun, handgun, and rifle and my emotions are just as mixed as yours on your question. I have been praying about it for years, the one thing that roars it's ugly head is common sense, which belongs to the carnal man, there is no common sense in the new man, he is led by the spirit. Well, I don't believe I helped much. :HeartThrob: :dsunny: Semper Fi..just thought I'd add that :)

I'm right there with ya Micah, besides the Semper Fi part since I'm not a marine :) or any military for that matter

[rosered]

  Hi Wayfaring stranger ,


   You ask a valid point  and have seen the same exact question here before 
I believe in Gods protection      , when you draw  close to God the devil/devils  has to flee


For me its always in prayer  asking  our heavely Father s help  and  pray for your enemies
  we have a neighbour man whom is metally ill and  close by , he used to walk down here all the time  with a gun and its  terrified  me and  he would just pop up  out of the blue  ,   
I was upset and  did not know how to deal with this problem

  and so the prayers began   for this man  ,  GOD is so faithful as promised      we have lived in peace  for 25 years now   and I give God   ALL the glory , he ceased  just as it started
because if I had called the police  , things would have surly turned out differently    I suppose


I believe faith is the very substance of things hoped for   , this substance  is a valuable   tool in trust and peace and   living in peace among your enemies as God contrains  or lets it go
  I could never tell you  how God fixed this , but He sure did !  calmed the mind of the beast ?  carnal nature in every man  is all I can think of  , even mine own 

  there is  great power in prayer /asking for Gods help in the time of need
  when the Sp[irit moves the flesh is inert , in a state of doing little or nothing
its was a be still and KNOW HE is God moment for me  :HeartThrob:
I hope you can find some peace of mind in   this

[rosered]

Amen   Micah   and RedHot !    same witness as  I was writing this !  :HeartThrob:
I just Love Gods ways !!!!   powerful witness at that !  true  confirmation  :girlheart:

[micah7:9]

I believe one has to work that out with the Lord through prayer. You are correct I believe when you show  how Jesus spoke and walked and what the Bible teaches. Walking in the Spirit is what we all are learning, yet have not attained.
Great question... I am a Marine Viet Nam era, own a shot gun, handgun, and rifle and my emotions are just as mixed as yours on your question. I have been praying about it for years, the one thing that roars it's ugly head is common sense, which belongs to the carnal man, there is no common sense in the new man, he is led by the spirit. Well, I don't believe I helped much. :HeartThrob: :dsunny: Semper Fi..just thought I'd add that :)

I'm right there with ya Micah, besides the Semper Fi part since I'm not a marine :) or any military for that matter

I didn't have a true faith in '65 so it was not a problem and I now lean heavily(heavenly) to the post of redhotmagma  :HeartThrob: :dsunny:

[rosered]

I believe one has to work that out with the Lord through prayer. You are correct I believe when you show  how Jesus spoke and walked and what the Bible teaches. Walking in the Spirit is what we all are learning, yet have not attained.
Great question... I am a Marine Viet Nam era, own a shot gun, handgun, and rifle and my emotions are just as mixed as yours on your question. I have been praying about it for years, the one thing that roars it's ugly head is common sense, which belongs to the carnal man, there is no common sense in the new man, he is led by the spirit. Well, I don't believe I helped much. :HeartThrob: :dsunny: Semper Fi..just thought I'd add that :)

I'm right there with ya Micah, besides the Semper Fi part since I'm not a marine :) or any military for that matter

I didn't have a true faith in '65 so it was not a problem and I now lean heavily(heavenly) to the post of redhotmagma  :HeartThrob: :dsunny:

  so  now your a soldier of the Cross now Micah ! :dsunny:

Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.  


1Th 5:6   Therefore let us not sleep, as [do] others; but let us watch and be sober. 

1Th 5:7   For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. 
1Th 5:8   But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. 


1Th 5:9   For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 
1Th 5:10   Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. 


1Th 5:11   Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do. 

  Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. 

Eph 6:11   Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 
Eph 6:12   For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places]. 
Eph 6:13   Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. 


Eph 6:14   Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;    Eph 6:15   And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;    Eph 6:16   Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. 
Eph 6:17   And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: 
Eph 6:18   Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints; 


Eph 6:19   And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel, 


Eph 6:20   For which I am an ambassador in bonds: that therein I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak. 

[micah7:9]

AMEN! Thanks :dsunny: :HeartThrob: :Peace2:

[jabcat]

I'm fine with that but my question more refers to my personal life.  I know that as a believer in Christ I'm not to seek out fights or altercations.  However what if my home is broken into, am I allowed to defend myself from attack?  Or more importantly to me what about defending my wife and daughter?  I know Jesus admonished us to lay down our weapons because "he who lives by the sword dies by the sword" and He would not allow His Apostles to take up arms to defend Him.  Would shooting my potential attacker be showing a lack of trust in God's plan?  It's an issue I struggle with back and forth in my mind so any answers I would appreciate.

I agree with others, and with you too as far as not seeking out trouble.  it's a matter of conscience before the Lord.  We're to live at peace with all men AS MUCH AS IS WITHIN US [as possible, as much as it depends on us...but IMO, not everyone "cooperates".]  Also, as far as turn the other cheek, for me, that's more of an emotional issue, i.e., not ripping at people who offend me, wither by word, or by such things as cutting me off in traffic that I don't scream, yell, curse them, try to cut them off, shake my fist, etc.).  Also, perhaps even of a physical nature to an extent - but not necessarily repeatedly, or life-threatening.  Or especially, if it's within my power to protect SOMEONE ELSE that's innocent.
Still, everyone should go before the Lord with it for themselves. 

A few other thoughts though that I believe are relevant;  Jesus also told the disciples to sell their coat and buy a sword.  One of the disciples also told Him at one point they had 2 swords, and He said that was enough.  I personally believe that was a time in their lives when things had "shifted", had become more physically dangerous, and perhaps even closing in on the time when the disciples would be "alone" (not truly alone, but after Jesus' ascension).  Paul also said a man who doesn't provide for his family is worse than an infidel.  I realize that's primarily speaking of financial, food, clothing, etc.  But personally, I extend that to mean other things, including physical protection.  If God completely protects through His power - if He wants to convict the other person to stop at my door rather than break it down;  if He sends an angel to intervene;  if I have a second to say "in the name of Jesus" and the guy drops his gun;  but if he's allowed to penetrate the safety of home or of my loved ones' space, as God empowers me, the dude's not gonna end up happy.  As far as not protecting my loved ones, or if someone doesn't protect theirs, if it comes right down to necessity, honestly I question their thought processes.  They better sure have the power of God, or just be so vulnerable that it's God will to rescue them.  Because otherwise them or their family is likely to get raped, abused, tortured, murdered - and I personally can't see just standing by and letting that happen.  We have several things in place to address that, including that when my wife and I both travel, she has a weapon in her dash, and I'm personally licensed to carry - and do.  I've also prayed that God would make it to where I'd never need/have to shoot anyone.  If God protects to where no one gets hurt, then of course that's best.   :2c:

[Lazarus Short]

We are called to not live by the sword, BUT we have the example of Abraham, who did not live by the sword, was a peaceful man, but when a family member was threatened/kidnapped, he armed all the men of his household, they went out, and they KILLED WITH THE EDGE OF THE SWORD. 

I am a peaceful man, and do not live by the sword/gun.  However, if my door gets kicked in, in the middle of the night, someone is going to die, and rightly so...

Be aware that home invasion is on a far different level than the slapping of the cheek.

[jabcat]

Amen.  Good points.  Reminds me of Jesus talking about how the man of the home watches/guards his home against someone with ill intent...that if he's on guard bad things won't happen, etc...don't remember the exact wording...

[dajomaco]

I used to think about this.

I would say to the Lord the level of faith I have in you is such:
That if I am in a certain circumstance where I am going to kill some one
or hurt some one.
I trust that you oh Lord will intervene.
You can show me the change in my heart that I am unaware of,
or you can show him the change in his heart that he is unaware of.

God in his mercy has not shown me either.

I think less of these things know.
I have new identity I am going to assume my heart is new.

I still have weapons.

The weapons thing is a decision I have been putting off.

[micah7:9]

 :iagree: :HeartThrob: :dsunny: Very well said!

[jbertonbounds]

  Hi Wayfaring stranger ,


   You ask a valid point  and have seen the same exact question here before 
I believe in Gods protection      , when you draw  close to God the devil/devils  has to flee


For me its always in prayer  asking  our heavely Father s help  and  pray for your enemies
  we have a neighbour man whom is metally ill and  close by , he used to walk down here all the time  with a gun and its  terrified  me and  he would just pop up  out of the blue  ,   
I was upset and  did not know how to deal with this problem

  and so the prayers began   for this man  ,  GOD is so faithful as promised      we have lived in peace  for 25 years now   and I give God   ALL the glory , he ceased  just as it started
because if I had called the police  , things would have surly turned out differently    I suppose


I believe faith is the very substance of things hoped for   , this substance  is a valuable   tool in trust and peace and   living in peace among your enemies as God contrains  or lets it go
  I could never tell you  how God fixed this , but He sure did !  calmed the mind of the beast ?  carnal nature in every man  is all I can think of  , even mine own 

  there is  great power in prayer /asking for Gods help in the time of need
  when the Sp[irit moves the flesh is inert , in a state of doing little or nothing
its was a be still and KNOW HE is God moment for me  :HeartThrob:
I hope you can find some peace of mind in   this

Such a HUGE amen to that!
That is my testimony. :thumbsup:

[jbertonbounds]

Someone questioned if we should stand by in faith and not try to intervene when an assailant threatens.  Well, with that logic, then you will have to sit still and let the assailant rape your wife or daughter.  Then would not the same logic cause you to have to stand by and let a bear eat one of your children?  I have absolutely no doubt that protecting our families is justifiable in God's sight, more than that, it is our responsibility. 

I think if you don't, then your marriage and family would never be the same again.  Letting someone hurt a member of your family when you could do something about it would destroy your family relationships - it would break down confidence in you, trust, security, and cause them to question your love for them!  You must not let that happen to your families if you can avoid it.

Frankly, if someone invades my home, they die!
No guilt, no remorse, no second thoughts, no question about it.
:2c:

[jbertonbounds]

I'm fine with that but my question more refers to my personal life.  I know that as a believer in Christ I'm not to seek out fights or altercations.  However what if my home is broken into, am I allowed to defend myself from attack?  Or more importantly to me what about defending my wife and daughter?  I know Jesus admonished us to lay down our weapons because "he who lives by the sword dies by the sword" and He would not allow His Apostles to take up arms to defend Him.  Would shooting my potential attacker be showing a lack of trust in God's plan?  It's an issue I struggle with back and forth in my mind so any answers I would appreciate.

I agree with others, and with you too as far as not seeking out trouble.  it's a matter of conscience before the Lord.  We're to live at peace with all men AS MUCH AS IS WITHIN US [as possible, as much as it depends on us...but IMO, not everyone "cooperates".]  Also, as far as turn the other cheek, for me, that's more of an emotional issue, i.e., not ripping at people who offend me, wither by word, or by such things as cutting me off in traffic that I don't scream, yell, curse them, try to cut them off, shake my fist, etc.).  Also, perhaps even of a physical nature to an extent - but not necessarily repeatedly, or life-threatening.  Or especially, if it's within my power to protect SOMEONE ELSE that's innocent.
Still, everyone should go before the Lord with it for themselves. 

A few other thoughts though that I believe are relevant;  Jesus also told the disciples to sell their coat and buy a sword.  One of the disciples also told Him at one point they had 2 swords, and He said that was enough.  I personally believe that was a time in their lives when things had "shifted", had become more physically dangerous, and perhaps even closing in on the time when the disciples would be "alone" (not truly alone, but after Jesus' ascension).  Paul also said a man who doesn't provide for his family is worse than an infidel.  I realize that's primarily speaking of financial, food, clothing, etc.  But personally, I extend that to mean other things, including physical protection.  If God completely protects through His power - if He wants to convict the other person to stop at my door rather than break it down;  if He sends an angel to intervene;  if I have a second to say "in the name of Jesus" and the guy drops his gun;  but if he's allowed to penetrate the safety of home or of my loved ones' space, as God empowers me, the dude's not gonna end up happy.  As far as not protecting my loved ones, or if someone doesn't protect theirs, if it comes right down to necessity, honestly I question their thought processes.  They better sure have the power of God, or just be so vulnerable that it's God will to rescue them.  Because otherwise them or their family is likely to get raped, abused, tortured, murdered - and I personally can't see just standing by and letting that happen.  We have several things in place to address that, including that when my wife and I both travel, she has a weapon in her dash, and I'm personally licensed to carry - and do.  I've also prayed that God would make it to where I'd never need/have to shoot anyone.  If God protects to where no one gets hurt, then of course that's best.   :2c:

This is good, Jab. :thumbsup:

[jabcat]

Thanks j.  Lots of good thoughts and comments in this short thread.   :gimmefive:

[Wayfaring Stranger]

Thanks to everyone who took the time to respond.  It really did help me clear up some of my issues.  Thank you all and God bless.

[eaglesway]

We are called to not live by the sword, BUT we have the example of Abraham, who did not live by the sword, was a peaceful man, but when a family member was threatened/kidnapped, he armed all the men of his household, they went out, and they KILLED WITH THE EDGE OF THE SWORD. 

I am a peaceful man, and do not live by the sword/gun.  However, if my door gets kicked in, in the middle of the night, someone is going to die, and rightly so...

Be aware that home invasion is on a far different level than the slapping of the cheek.

I agre withyou Laz.... I think we have to be SO CAREFUL not to judge what we do not know. I am primarilly thankful that I hav never been confronted with such a situation..... I think this is one of those "whatever is not of faith is of sin" situations.... let every person b convinced in their own heart- and let every person pray, "Lead me not into temptation...deliver me from evil". If we walk in the spirit daily, we will not be caught without His help and direction in the time of need.  A friend of mine told me of his friend who was an ex-biker, in the park with his family years after he quit the gangs. He was confronted when some old enemies showed up in the park and saw him. He said the Lord told him which guy to knock out, and he did.....and they left. Who am I to judge LOL.

[Ken]

Hello Wayfaring Stranger,

I too was in the Navy during the height of the Viet Nam war. I soon became a conscientious objector and was honorably discharged at a time when things like that just didn't happen. I give God full credit for that.

I have since written an article on that very subject:



As for your question regarding shooting people in self defense, there are three issues here:

First, if you own a gun, then you are more likely to attract a situation where you would be tempted to use it. Guns are instruments of death. IMO, They serve no other useful purpose.

Second, if you own a gun, you are by default stating that God cannot or will not protect you. IMO, Our faith in God should supersede any type of weapon of defense. You can't have it both ways.

Third, there is no New Testament biblical validation for using weapons. Jesus didn't use them or endorse them.

I hope this helps.

Ken

[jabcat]

Ken, those statements are your opinion and you're welcome to them and to express them.  I don't agree with all of them, and have shown some reasons why - which are my opinions of course.   :laugh: 

[eaglesway]

Actually, Ken, you may be incorrect. There is a New Testament validation for using weapons. Paul said the sword is born by the lawgiver for the restraining of lawbreakers. John the Baaptist, when instructing soldiers.....did not tell them to put away their weapons... he instructed them on the righteous use of there powers.

Although I agree with your general conclusion about gun owwnership and our faith in God.... You have exceeded the scriptures in your statement at that point.

So, I will re-iterate that we ought not judge, but discuss our opinions about such things in a spirit of fellowship- not a spirit of presenting absolutes that are simplistic and protrayed as representing the whole biblical view when they actually maybe don't :o)

[Ken]

Hello Eaglesway,

I certainly am not judging any one here. I'm just trying to share my lifetime of research on this important subject.

Would you please be kind enough to let me know exactly which scriptures you are referring to? Thanks!  :Peace2:

Ken

Actually, Ken, you may be incorrect. There is a New Testament validation for using weapons. Paul said the sword is born by the lawgiver for the restraining of lawbreakers. John the Baaptist, when instructing soldiers.....did not tell them to put away their weapons... he instructed them on the righteous use of there powers.

Although I agree with your general conclusion about gun ownership and our faith in God.... You have exceeded the scriptures in your statement at that point.

So, I will re-iterate that we ought not judge, but discuss our opinions about such things in a spirit of fellowship- not a spirit of presenting absolutes that are simplistic and protrayed as representing the whole biblical view when they actually maybe don't :o)

[Ken]

 :Peace2:Hello Jabcat,

Yes, those are my opinions. They are also the opinions of tens of thousands of Christians down through history. The book, Christianity and War, documents this subject and is noted in my article.

Thank you for your response.  :Peace2:

Ken

Ken, those statements are your opinion and you're welcome to them and to express them.  I don't agree with all of them, and have shown some reasons why - which are my opinions of course.   :laugh:

[Wayfaring Stranger]

Hello Wayfaring Stranger,

I too was in the Navy during the height of the Viet Nam war. I soon became a conscientious objector and was honorably discharged at a time when things like that just didn't happen. I give God full credit for that.

I have since written an article on that very subject:

http://ernestlmartin.com/index8.htm#conscientious

As for your question regarding shooting people in self defense, there are three issues here:

First, if you own a gun, then you are more likely to attract a situation where you would be tempted to use it. Guns are instruments of death. They serve no other useful purpose.

Second, if you own a gun, you are by default stating that God cannot or will not protect you. Our faith in God should supersede any type of weapon of defense. You can't have it both ways.

Third, there is no New Testament biblical validation for using weapons. Jesus didn't use them or endorse them.

I hope this helps.

Ken

Well to be clear I bought a gun about 6 years ago and I don't conceal and carry it around with me.  It stays in my closet and sometimes I forget I own it.  In the 6 years I've owned it I've went to a range to shoot it once.  So I don't know that I attract any situations to me because of my firearm.  I hang on to it I guess because I hope that if someone does try to break in perhaps my gun will deter them if it's presented.  Now it's true that God can protect me far better than I could protect myself but God doesn't always send down angels or bolts of lightning from the sky to serve His purposes, sometimes He uses us humans.  Perhaps the deterrence of my gun would be God's chosen method of protecting me?

Do I want to kill someone?  No.  Do I carry my firearm around with me looking for trouble?  No, not at all.  However if I felt my daughter was in danger I would pray about it, looking to the Lord for answers.  Perhaps I would have to shoot the assailant, perhaps not.  But I believe that everything that happens is the Will of God so perhaps if I have to shoot that was just how that person was supposed to die.  Or maybe he gets shot and lives but it was a wake up call to that person and God uses that moment to draw the assailant unto Him.  I don't know, but if put in that situation I would have to trust in God to give me the right answers as it was happening.