Trinity Discussion, split from "Something I Just Read"

[dajomaco]

I know it was a big day for Paul, realizing that Jesus the son of God
was his LORD.

I think in the quite of the Night he put two and two together and was shocked
that he and his Temple brothers killed the Christ. 

[Molly]

ISAIAH 36

Sennacherib Threatens Jerusalem

4 Then the Assyrian king's chief of staff told them to give this message to Hezekiah:


"This is what the great king of Assyria says: What are you trusting in that makes you so confident? 5 Do you think that mere words can substitute for military skill and strength? Who are you counting on, that you have rebelled against me? 6 On Egypt? If you lean on Egypt, it will be like a reed that splinters beneath your weight and pierces your hand. Pharaoh, the king of Egypt, is completely unreliable!


7 "But perhaps you will say to me, 'We are trusting in the Lord our God!' But isn't he the one who was insulted by Hezekiah? Didn't Hezekiah tear down his shrines and altars and make everyone in Judah and Jerusalem worship only at the altar here in Jerusalem?


8 "I'll tell you what! Strike a bargain with my master, the king of Assyria. I will give you 2,000 horses if you can find that many men to ride on them! 9 With your tiny army, how can you think of challenging even the weakest contingent of my master's troops, even with the help of Egypt's chariots and charioteers? 10 What's more, do you think we have invaded your land without the Lord's direction? The Lord himself told us, 'Attack this land and destroy it!'"

11 Then Eliakim, Shebna, and Joah said to the Assyrian chief of staff, "Please speak to us in Aramaic, for we understand it well. Don't speak in Hebrew,[d] for the people on the wall will hear."

12 But Sennacherib's chief of staff replied, "Do you think my master sent this message only to you and your master? He wants all the people to hear it, for when we put this city under siege, they will suffer along with you. They will be so hungry and thirsty that they will eat their own dung and drink their own urine."

13 Then the chief of staff stood and shouted in Hebrew to the people on the wall, "Listen to this message from the great king of Assyria! 14 This is what the king says: Don't let Hezekiah deceive you. He will never be able to rescue you. 15 Don't let him fool you into trusting in the Lord by saying, 'The Lord will surely rescue us. This city will never fall into the hands of the Assyrian king!'

16 "Don't listen to Hezekiah! These are the terms the king of Assyria is offering: Make peace with me—open the gates and come out. Then each of you can continue eating from your own grapevine and fig tree and drinking from your own well. 17 Then I will arrange to take you to another land like this one—a land of grain and new wine, bread and vineyards.

18 "Don't let Hezekiah mislead you by saying, 'The Lord will rescue us!' Have the gods of any other nations ever saved their people from the king of Assyria? 19 What happened to the gods of Hamath and Arpad? And what about the gods of Sepharvaim? Did any god rescue Samaria from my power? 20 What god of any nation has ever been able to save its people from my power? So what makes you think that the Lord can rescue Jerusalem from me?"

21 But the people were silent and did not utter a word because Hezekiah had commanded them, "Do not answer him."

22 Then Eliakim son of Hilkiah, the palace administrator; Shebna the court secretary; and Joah son of Asaph, the royal historian, went back to Hezekiah. They tore their clothes in despair, and they went in to see the king and told him what the Assyrian chief of staff had said.

[Molly]

ISAIAH 37

And it came to pass, when king Hezekiah heard it, that he rent his clothes, and covered himself with sackcloth, and went into the house of the Lord.

2 And he sent Eliakim, who was over the household, and Shebna the scribe, and the elders of the priests covered with sackcloth, unto Isaiah the prophet the son of Amoz.

3 And they said unto him, Thus saith Hezekiah, This day is a day of trouble, and of rebuke, and of blasphemy: for the children are come to the birth, and there is not strength to bring forth.

4 It may be the Lord thy God will hear the words of Rabshakeh, whom the king of Assyria his master hath sent to reproach the living God, and will reprove the words which the Lord thy God hath heard: wherefore lift up thy prayer for the remnant that is left.

5 So the servants of king Hezekiah came to Isaiah.

6 And Isaiah said unto them, Thus shall ye say unto your master, Thus saith the Lord, Be not afraid of the words that thou hast heard, wherewith the servants of the king of Assyria have blasphemed me.

7 Behold, I will send a blast upon him, and he shall hear a rumour, and return to his own land; and I will cause him to fall by the sword in his own land.

8 So Rabshakeh returned, and found the king of Assyria warring against Libnah: for he had heard that he was departed from Lachish.

9 And he heard say concerning Tirhakah king of Ethiopia, He is come forth to make war with thee. And when he heard it, he sent messengers to Hezekiah, saying,

10 Thus shall ye speak to Hezekiah king of Judah, saying, Let not thy God, in whom thou trustest, deceive thee, saying, Jerusalem shall not be given into the hand of the king of Assyria.

11 Behold, thou hast heard what the kings of Assyria have done to all lands by destroying them utterly; and shalt thou be delivered?

12 Have the gods of the nations delivered them which my fathers have destroyed, as Gozan, and Haran, and Rezeph, and the children of Eden which were in Telassar?

13 Where is the king of Hamath, and the king of Arphad, and the king of the city of Sepharvaim, Hena, and Ivah?

14 And Hezekiah received the letter from the hand of the messengers, and read it: and Hezekiah went up unto the house of the Lord, and spread it before the Lord.

15 And Hezekiah prayed unto the Lord, saying,

16 O Lord of hosts, God of Israel, that dwellest between the cherubims, thou art the God, even thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth: thou hast made heaven and earth.

17 Incline thine ear, O Lord, and hear; open thine eyes, O Lord, and see: and hear all the words of Sennacherib, which hath sent to reproach the living God.

18 Of a truth, Lord, the kings of Assyria have laid waste all the nations, and their countries,

19 And have cast their gods into the fire: for they were no gods, but the work of men's hands, wood and stone: therefore they have destroyed them.

20 Now therefore, O Lord our God, save us from his hand, that all the kingdoms of the earth may know that thou art the Lord, even thou only.

21 Then Isaiah the son of Amoz sent unto Hezekiah, saying, Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, Whereas thou hast prayed to me against Sennacherib king of Assyria:

22 This is the word which the Lord hath spoken concerning him; The virgin, the daughter of Zion, hath despised thee, and laughed thee to scorn; the daughter of Jerusalem hath shaken her head at thee.

23 Whom hast thou reproached and blasphemed? and against whom hast thou exalted thy voice, and lifted up thine eyes on high? even against the Holy One of Israel.

24 By thy servants hast thou reproached the Lord, and hast said, By the multitude of my chariots am I come up to the height of the mountains, to the sides of Lebanon; and I will cut down the tall cedars thereof, and the choice fir trees thereof: and I will enter into the height of his border, and the forest of his Carmel.

25 I have digged, and drunk water; and with the sole of my feet have I dried up all the rivers of the besieged places.

26 Hast thou not heard long ago, how I have done it; and of ancient times, that I have formed it? now have I brought it to pass, that thou shouldest be to lay waste defenced cities into ruinous heaps.

27 Therefore their inhabitants were of small power, they were dismayed and confounded: they were as the grass of the field, and as the green herb, as the grass on the housetops, and as corn blasted before it be grown up.

28 But I know thy abode, and thy going out, and thy coming in, and thy rage against me.

29 Because thy rage against me, and thy tumult, is come up into mine ears, therefore will I put my hook in thy nose, and my bridle in thy lips, and I will turn thee back by the way by which thou camest.

30 And this shall be a sign unto thee, Ye shall eat this year such as groweth of itself; and the second year that which springeth of the same: and in the third year sow ye, and reap, and plant vineyards, and eat the fruit thereof.

31 And the remnant that is escaped of the house of Judah shall again take root downward, and bear fruit upward:

32 For out of Jerusalem shall go forth a remnant, and they that escape out of mount Zion: the zeal of the Lord of hosts shall do this.

33 Therefore thus saith the Lord concerning the king of Assyria, He shall not come into this city, nor shoot an arrow there, nor come before it with shields, nor cast a bank against it.

34 By the way that he came, by the same shall he return, and shall not come into this city, saith the Lord.

35 For I will defend this city to save it for mine own sake, and for my servant David's sake.

36 Then the angel of the Lord went forth, and smote in the camp of the Assyrians a hundred and fourscore and five thousand: and when they arose early in the morning, behold, they were all dead corpses.

37 So Sennacherib king of Assyria departed, and went and returned, and dwelt at Nineveh.

38 And it came to pass, as he was worshipping in the house of Nisroch his god, that Adrammelech and Sharezer his sons smote him with the sword; and they escaped into the land of Armenia: and Esarhaddon his son reigned in his stead.

[Molly]

Behold, I will send a blast upon him, and he shall hear a rumour, and return to his own land; and I will cause him to fall by the sword in his own land.

--Isa 37



"a blast"

H7307
רוּח
rûach
roo'-akh
From H7306; wind; by resemblance breath, that is, a sensible (or even violent) exhalation; figuratively life, anger, unsubstantiality; by extension a region of the sky; by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being (including its expression and functions): - air, anger, blast, breath, X cool, courage, mind, X quarter, X side, spirit ([-ual]), tempest, X vain, ([whirl-]) wind (-y).


Meet YHWH RUACH, the Holy Spirit,  Holder of the double edged sword in his hand, that kills and gives life.



The fear of YHWH is the beginning of knowledge; But the foolish despise wisdom and instruction.  [Prov 1:7]

[redhotmagma]

Gen 26:35 KJV - Which were a grief of mind[7307] unto Isaac and to Rebekah.
Gen 41:8 KJV - And it came to pass in the morning that his spirit[7307] was troubled ; and he sent and called for all the magicians of Egypt, and all the wise men thereof: and Pharaoh told them his dream; but [there was] none that could interpret them unto Pharaoh.
Num 5:14 KJV - And the spirit[7307] of jealousy come upon him, and he be jealous of his wife, and she be defiled : or if the spirit[7307] of jealousy come upon him, and he be jealous of his wife, and she be not defiled :

Are these the 3rd person of the blessed trinity?

[Molly]

There are many spirits.

That's why Jesus says, once I sweep out the house and make it clean, if you leave it empty, the evil spirit will return with all his friends.

And, the man will be in worse shape than when he began.

My opinion--translation from the mollyBible

[redhotmagma]

And you will know them by their fruits.  for the fruits of THE Spirit are:

Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Goodness, Faithfullness, Gentleness, Self Control

Hmmm the spirit you are claiming is the 3rd person of the trinity sounds more like a lying spirit (he shall hear a rumor).  Are kindness and gentleness the two sides of the sword that he, He, it wields?  "I bring you peace, now die".  :LH:

:sigh:

[Molly]

Here's the King James translation of that story:



43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.

44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.

45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

--Mat 12

[micah7:9]

Molly you take up a great deal of space with your answers which have failed (for me anyway) in every way to prove the verses you exhibit as the Spirit of God/Holy Spirit to a entity/person outside of how YOU Molly(and your bible) interpret or speculate what a verse says.
You admit, I think, that the word trinity(and "blessed trinity" certainly is not in (my)Bible, nor is it explained as such. Only in a hymn you produced. You must have to admit that the Holy Spirit is not mentioned in the Bible as a person(if you have found such evidence) please print it. It is nowhere in (my) Bible written "God the Holy Spirit."
Other than Matt. 28:19 you have not produced any other verse where I can read that formula of words, in that order.
All you offer taking up much space are verses that prove that the Spirit of God/Holy Spirit is the power which the Lord God uses to do His work be that for good or evil.
I believe the Holy Spirit/Spirit of God is the energy/power that He uses to accomplish His work, He baptizes with the Holy Spirit and fire both of which are out from the Lord God. The Holy Spirit is very real and very real in my life today. :HeartThrob: :dsunny:

[micah7:9]

And you will know them by their fruits.  for the fruits of THE Spirit are:

Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Goodness, Faithfullness, Gentleness, Self Control

Hmmm the spirit you are claiming is the 3rd person of the trinity sounds more like a lying spirit (he shall hear a rumor).  Are kindness and gentleness the two sides of the sword that he, He, it wields?  "I bring you peace, now die".  :LH:

:sigh:

:thumbsup:

[Molly]

And you will know them by their fruits.  for the fruits of THE Spirit are:

Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Goodness, Faithfullness, Gentleness, Self Control

Hmmm the spirit you are claiming is the 3rd person of the trinity sounds more like a lying spirit (he shall hear a rumor).  Are kindness and gentleness the two sides of the sword that he, He, it wields?  "I bring you peace, now die".  :LH:

:sigh:

If you would look up that word for 'rumour'  in the Hebrew, you would see it sounds like no such thing.   In the mollyBible it is translated as, 'He will hear a stunning and devastating news report"--namely, that 185,000 of his men had just been struck dead in their camp by the mighty God of Israel.

The fruit of the Spirit given to us?

Now maybe you are just beginning to understand the meaning and import of reconciliation?  Maybe?  Just a little bit?


2 Corinthians 5:19

To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

[micah7:9]

2 Corinthians 5:19

To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Now there is the POWER of Almighty God Jehovah! Praise the Name Jesus! :dsunny: :dsunny: :dsunny:

[redhotmagma]

The fruit of the Spirit given to us?

Now maybe you are just beginning to understand the meaning and import of reconciliation?  Maybe?  Just a little bit?


2 Corinthians 5:19

To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

I really don't know what you're saying here? 

[Molly]

The fruit of the Spirit given to us?

Now maybe you are just beginning to understand the meaning and import of reconciliation?  Maybe?  Just a little bit?


2 Corinthians 5:19

To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

I really don't know what you're saying here?

What do you think the word, reconciliation, means?  Why is it necessary?  Who is being reconciled to whom on the cross?  Why would God want to do this?

You can't understand the New Testament unless you read the Old Testament.

It's all one book, written by the same Person.  Would you read only one half of a book?

[micah7:9]

"It's all one book, written by the same Person."  Clarify please. Thanks

[redhotmagma]

When did God start the reconciling process? When was the lamb slain?  Reconciling is necessary because of the darkness of mans mind, and you who were formerly enemies in your mind. 

You can't understand the old testament unless you read it through the lens of Jesus the exact imprint of the Father, the exact representation of His character.  even to this day their minds are veiled when they read Moses. 

[Molly]

No one ever answers my questions.



Here's a definition of reconcile to perhaps help a little bit:



"reconcile"


1.  To reestablish a close relationship, as in marriage:




Can only one party reconcile himself?   Does that mean that a reconciliation happens unilaterally, or does the other party also have to reconcile for it to take effect?

[micah7:9]

Reconcile....G604 apokatallassō   to reconcile fully: from G2644 katallassō to change mutually, that is, (figuratively) to compound a difference: - reconcile.

"Can only one party reconcile himself?" The Lord God will not reconcile[ to change mutually] Mal 3:6  For I am the LORD, I change not;

"Does that mean that a reconciliation happens unilaterally, or does the other party also have to reconcile for it to take effect?  No.
Mal 3:6  For I am the LORD, I change not;

[rosered]

 

Always the  relationship Molly   always reconciling
Some one told me years ago    ,  the Old testament    was God  testifying of His Son   and  the new testament is the Son testifying of His Father  , that simple
  never forgot that after all these years   10 or more  :girlheart:

  God bless  you all

[micah7:9]

Always the  relationship Molly   always reconciling
Some one told me years ago    ,  the Old testament    was God  testifying of His Son   and  the new testament is the Son testifying of His Father  , that simple
  never forgot that after all these years   10 or more  :girlheart:

  God bless  you all

:dsunny: :HeartThrob: :thumbsup:

[rosered]

Reconcile....G604 apokatallassō   to reconcile fully: from G2644 katallassō to change mutually, that is, (figuratively) to compound a difference: - reconcile.

"Can only one party reconcile himself?" The Lord God will not reconcile[ to change mutually] Mal 3:6  For I am the LORD, I change not;

"Does that mean that a reconciliation happens unilaterally, or does the other party also have to reconcile for it to take effect?  No.
Mal 3:6  For I am the LORD, I change not;

Hi Micah and Molly and Red Hot ,
 
The only thing I can say  on this is    God is the God of the living only
  and the Lord Jesus Christ come to  be the Lord / Master of the dead and the Living 
  this is the reconciling relationship    to me 
Jesus Christ the Lamb of God  and Son of God is  raising the dead to Life  again into Himself    By the  same Holy Spirit and Fire      for His Father  the GOD OF THE LIVING    this glory is shared , ALL IN ALL  IS  NO DEATH/sin    period

the purpose of the Cross of Christ
Jhn 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.   GLORY Strong's G1391 - doxa

1) opinion, judgment, view

2) opinion, estimate, whether good or bad concerning someone

a) in the NT always a good opinion concerning one, resulting in praise, honour, and glory

3) splendour, brightness

a) of the moon, sun, stars

b) magnificence, excellence, preeminence, dignity, grace

c) majesty

1) a thing belonging to God

a) the kingly majesty which belongs to him as supreme ruler, majesty in the sense of the absolute perfection of the deity

2) a thing belonging to Christ

a) the kingly majesty of the Messiah

b) the absolutely perfect inward or personal excellency of Christ; the majesty

3) of the angels

a) as apparent in their exterior brightness

4) a most glorious condition, most exalted state

a) of that condition with God the Father in heaven to which Christ was raised after he had achieved his work on earth

b) the glorious condition of blessedness into which is appointed and promised that true Christians shall enter after their Saviour's return from heaven

   I   think they  definitions are a little bit  lacking   , but with human terms and words its a hard thing to express        this Glory of God    :HeartThrob:




Strong's G1392 - doxazō
1) to think, suppose, be of opinion

2) to praise, extol, magnify, celebrate

3) to honour, do honour to, hold in honour

4) to make glorious, adorn with lustre, clothe with splendour

a) to impart glory to something, render it excellent

b) to make renowned, render illustrious

1) to cause the dignity and worth of some person or thing to become manifest and acknowledged

[Molly]

God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself.  This word implies a mutual change.  That means that both parties have to reconcile [change something] for the word reconcile to take effect. 



"reconcile"
G2644
καταλλάσσω
katallassō
kat-al-las'-so
From G2596 and G236; to change mutually, that is, (figuratively) to compound a difference: - reconcile.


Who is being reconciled to whom in 2 Cor 5: 19?   Are both parties being reconciled in that verse?

And why is reconciliation even needed?

You don't have a reconciliation if only one party agrees to reconcile, do you?

[rosered]

God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself.  This word implies a mutual change.  That means that both parties have to reconcile [change something] for the word reconcile to take effect. 



"reconcile"
G2644
καταλλάσσω
katallassō
kat-al-las'-so
From G2596 and G236; to change mutually, that is, (figuratively) to compound a difference: - reconcile.


Who is being reconciled to whom in 2 Cor 5: 19?   Are both parties being reconciled in that verse?

And why is reconciliation even needed?

You don't have a reconciliation if only one party agrees to reconcile, do you?

Somthing ReFormer  said , Jesus wants His body Back , Jesus is raising the dead   , its His body   that is being reconciled to the Living God again

John 12 ;32 If I be lifed up  from the earth will  draw all men into Me , the earth bodies of death



lifted up
Lexicon Results Strong's G5312 - hypsoō ὑψόω
Transliteration
hypsoō
Pronunciation

hü-pso'-ō (Key)


Part of Speech
verb

Root Word (Etymology)

From ὕψος (G5311)

TDNT Reference
8:606,1241
Vines
View Entry

Outline of Biblical Usage 1) to lift up on high, to exalt

2) metaph.

a) to raise to the very summit of opulence and prosperity

b) to exalt, to raise to dignity, honour and happiness

[micah7:9]

So I am to surmise that in the "mollybible" we will not find....Mal 3:6  For I am the LORD, I change not;?

I really like the Bible I read and study and it reads that "I am the LORD, I change not;" so you have again brought forth another theory. At least in my opinion. :dsunny:

[eaglesway]

God was in Christ.

We can get real heavy into English grammar here, as an object lesson.

Christ was the container. Hebrews 1 "He is the radiance of the Father's glory and exact representation of His nature"

Col 1 "For so it pleased the Father to make all the fulness dwell in Him"

Col 2 "He is the fulness of the deity in bodily form"


Why doesnt it say, "The Anointed One was God reconciling the world unto Himself."  Christ means Anointed One.

Anointed with what?   Anointed with God? Anointed with the Spirit of God?

When did Jesus receive the Spirit without measure?  Clearly it was after His resurrection. "He that believes in me out of his innermost being shall spring a fountain of living water. In this he was speaking of the holy spirit which was to be given to all those who believe- but the spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified." (johns gospel chapter 7 I think)

Jesus had to be glorified before he could receive the spirit without measure.

"This same Jesus whom you crucified has been raised from the dead and raised to the right hand of His Father where he received the Holy Spirit and poured forth that which you do now both see and hear."

IMO All the fulness of God did not dwell in Jesus until after He was resurrected and exalted and glorified.

We will not be "filled up to all the fulness of God(Eph 3)"until we are resurrected and glorified.

How does Jesus not know the exact day or the hour(No man know the hour not even the Son, but only the Father(Mt24) .

Was God "in Jesus"? Clearly He was. Was Jesus God? Logically it follows that if Jesus was God as he walked the earth either he was under severe restraints upon his power or He would not have said, "I have a task to do and Oh how I am constrained until it is accomplished".

He knew that after His resurrection He would be glorified and anointed with "All the fulness of God"- He would become "the fountainhead of the spirit of God".

Now, these thoughts do not prove anything about the construction of the deity(Father Son SPirit)- they just raise interesting questions that the major doctrinal positions all have trouble dealing with completely, and the reason for saying that will follow in my next post.