Trinity Discussion, split from "Something I Just Read"

[Molly]

Is that a personification of Legion, the demon spirit in Mat 5:9?

Maybe spirit behaves differently than denser matter?

I have felt the Spirit's mantle on my shoulders.  Once I felt it.  It had weight and gave warmth.

[dajomaco]

"My name is Legion," he replied, "for we are many."

[Molly]

You mean a spirit that is many in one?

I'm shocked and surprised!

Look, spirits can think and talk, too.

"What do you want with us, Son of God?" they shouted. "Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?"

--Mat 8:29

[dajomaco]

No I mean many spirits who speak as one.

[micah7:9]

Molly, outside of your interpretation of what you read and believe you have given not one peice of evidence of a 3 in 1 trinity (blessed or other wise). You cannot admit it because you really believe it, and I honor your belief.
Neither the OT writers or the NT be it Jesus, Peter, James, Jude, or Paul, or the Revelation of Jesus Christ explain or reveal in word or in outright language any speak of a trinity of persons of 3 in 1, a blessed trinity.
You believe and you claim you found within the Bible the teaching of a trinity, but out side of how you understand what is written, other than showing that the power of the Lord God working by and through His Spirit, which I believe He does, you have absolutely no written evidence.
Believe the trinity belief, I can honor that, but please stop trying to prove such a belief of 3 persons in 1 (a trinity) without actual words of scripture to identify such a teaching.  :HeartThrob:

[mplsfitter539]

 :iagree:

[Molly]

The words of Jesus himself--


Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.--Mat 28:19

[micah7:9]

This may cause controversy for you Molly, but it could justify why the teaching is prevalent. You say you got all your belief of a trinity from the Bible, but you have yet to show your evidence where the Bible speaks of such a trinity belief.
Matthew 28:19 ---"the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit"
The early Church historian Eusebius appears to quote from a different manuscript than any we presently have. Eighteen times between the years 300 and 336-C.E. he cited Matthew 28:19, 20 as: 'Go ye and make disciples of all the nations in my name, teaching them to observe all things, whatsoever I commanded you.'
It is interesting that the traditional Trinitarian reading of Matthew 28:19 does not appear in Eusebius' writings until after the Council of Nicaea, wherein the Trinity began to formally be held as official doctrine. So, evidence strongly indicates that this is a spurious scripture inserted by later Trinitarians, in the same vein as 1 John 5:7-8.

[mplsfitter539]

The words of Jesus himself--


Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.--Mat 28:19

Not in the original text. The trinitarins added the Father and Holy Spirit.

Acts 4
12 No one else can save us. Indeed, we can be saved only by the power of the one named Jesus and not by any other person."

[micah7:9]

 :dsunny: Glory very good.

[Molly]

Oh great.  Call our Bible corrupt and shout, "Glory."  Nice.

Nevermind that you are wrong.  Or are you calling these early church fathers 'trinitarans'?




Trinitarian expressions which link together the names of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit occurred very early in the History of the Christian Church. Two examples appear in the New Testament: 2 Corinthians 13:14 and Matthew 28:19. The context of 2 Corinthians 13:14 (verse 13 in the Vulgate), which is the close of a letter, suggests the church's conjunction of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit may have originated as a doxological formula; while the context of Matthew 28:19, the Great Commission, shows that the verbal conjunction of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit was used early on as a baptismal formula.

This triadic pattern is even more marked in the glimpses available of the early Church's liturgy and day-to-day catechetical practice.[1] The oldest extant work in which the word "Trinity" itself (Greek Trias, triados) is used to refer to Father, Son and Holy Spirit is Theophilus of Antioch's 2nd-century To Autolycus.



First half of second century or late first century: Didache

This source uses the gospel of Matthew only and no other known gospel, and thus it must have been written before the four-gospel canon had become widespread in the churches, i.e. before the second half of the 2nd century when Tatian produced the Diatessaron.[4] Given its literary dependence on the Gospel of Matthew, it is not surprising that the Didache follows the Gospel of Matthew in designating the Trinitarian formula as a baptismal formula:


After the foregoing instructions, baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living [running] water.... If you have neither, pour water three times on the head, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. —Didache 7:1[5][/b]



Polycarp was martyred in Smyrna (where he was also Bishop) in the year 155. It is said by Irenaeus of Lyons that he was a pupil of the Apostle John. In his final prayer before his martyrdom, he "praises, glorifies, and blesses" the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit:


For this cause, yea and for all things, I praise Thee, I bless Thee, I glorify Thee, through the eternal and heavenly High-priest, Jesus Christ, Thy beloved Son, through whom with Him and the Holy Spirit be glory both now [and ever] and for the ages to come. Amen. —Martyrdom of Polycarp 14:3[8



169-181: Theophilus of Antioch

Theophilus of Antioch's Ad Autolycum is the oldest extant work that uses the actual word "Trinity" to refer to God, his Word and his Wisdom. The context is a discussion of the first three days of creation in Genesis 1-3:


It is the attribute of God, of the most high and almighty and of the living God, not only to be everywhere, but also to see and hear all; for he can in no way be contained in a place.... The three days before the luminaries were created are types of the Trinity, God, his Word, and his Wisdom. —To Autolycus 2:15[9]

And, so forth...

[Molly]

Mat 28:19--All these Bibles got it wrong according to Micah and MLPS?  Imagine that.


New International Version (©2011)
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

New Living Translation (©2007)
Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.

English Standard Version (©2001)
Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009)
Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

International Standard Version (©2012)
Therefore, as you go, disciple people in all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit,

NET Bible (©2006)
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
"Therefore go disciple all the nations and baptize them in the name of The Father and The Son and The Spirit of Holiness."

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
So wherever you go, make disciples of all nations: Baptize them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
Go you therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit:

American King James Version
Go you therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

American Standard Version
Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit:

Douay-Rheims Bible
Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

Darby Bible Translation
Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptising them to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit;

English Revised Version
Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost:

Webster's Bible Translation
Go ye therefore and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.

Weymouth New Testament
Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations; baptize them into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit;

World English Bible
Go, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Young's Literal Translation
having gone, then, disciple all the nations, (baptizing them -- to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit,

[Molly]

14 When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that the people of Samaria had accepted God's message, they sent Peter and John there. 15 As soon as they arrived, they prayed for these new believers to receive the Holy Spirit. 16 The Holy Spirit had not yet come upon any of them, for they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then Peter and John laid their hands upon these believers, and they received the Holy Spirit.

--Acts 8

[micah7:9]

Mat 28:19--All these Bibles got it wrong according to Micah and MLPS?  Imagine that.


New International Version (©2011)
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

New Living Translation (©2007)
Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.

English Standard Version (©2001)
Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009)
Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

International Standard Version (©2012)
Therefore, as you go, disciple people in all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit,

NET Bible (©2006)
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
"Therefore go disciple all the nations and baptize them in the name of The Father and The Son and The Spirit of Holiness."

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
So wherever you go, make disciples of all nations: Baptize them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
Go you therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit:

American King James Version
Go you therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

American Standard Version
Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit:

Douay-Rheims Bible
Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

Darby Bible Translation
Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptising them to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit;

English Revised Version
Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost:

Webster's Bible Translation
Go ye therefore and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.

Weymouth New Testament
Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations; baptize them into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit;

World English Bible
Go, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Young's Literal Translation
having gone, then, disciple all the nations, (baptizing them -- to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit,

HOW do you they didn't? And besides you said there needs to be 2 or 3 witnesses, I agree. Can you supply another verse of scripture that has a witness of what is stated in Matt.? If not, then just maybe it s not a valid verse. I understand that the Bible is the witness within itself.

20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of scripture at all is becoming its own explanation.
21 For not by the will of man was prophecy carried on at any time, but, being carried on by holy spirit, holy men of God speak.

[Molly]

HOW do you they didn't?

1) Because your theory has been thoroughly debunked by the experts

2)Because Mat 28:19 appears in the writings and practices of the earliest church fathers

3)Because the church fathers use the word 'trinity' as preserved in their writings by the mid second century ad, one of them a disciple of the Apostle John.

4)Because I trust God to preserve his Bible

5)Because given the choice between the Bible of God and the Bible of Micah--well, there's just no choice, sorry.

[micah7:9]

HOW do you they didn't?

1) Because your theory has been thoroughly debunked by the experts

2)Because Mat 28:19 appears in the writings and practices of the earliest church fathers

3)Because the church fathers use the word 'trinity' as preserved in their writings by the mid second century ad, one of them a disciple of the Apostle John.

4)Because I trust God to preserve his Bible

5)Because given the choice between the Bible of God and the Bible of Micah--well, there's just no choice, sorry.

Maybe it's the Bible of Molly that lacks witness. Can you find the word progression of Matt. in your Bible? And if not why not? Where is YOUR Bible verse that supplies a witness to your belief. And if you look closely YLT is in () Mat 28:19  having gone, then, disciple all the nations, (baptizing them--to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, Mat 28:20  teaching them to observe all, whatever I did command you,) those ( ) are significant.
Besides Molly you have shown not evidence for your trinity theory or even proof for a trinity theory. And I am just using reference:
The following list of interpolations is taken from notes by Professor C. Tischendorf, based on the Sinaitic Manuscript which he discovered at the foot of Mount Sinai. There are many others, but those contained in this list seem to be the only ones which materially change the meaning of the texts in which they appear. Although some have contested the exclusion of these, individuals have deemed it wise to delete these from their Bible:

[Molly]

Micah, you have your second witness at the baptism of Jesus.

All three are there--Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

  If you want to rewrite the Bible, go for it.

But, don't expect me to buy it.

[mplsfitter539]

Micah, you have your second witness at the baptism of Jesus.

All three are there--Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

  If you want to rewrite the Bible, go for it.

But, don't expect me to buy it.

So you are buying all the words of the bible such as hell (a place of literal fire) and forever (of which there was no concept)? Yahweh allows most people to be lead into strong delusion and trinitarians are under the strong delusion to believe a lie.

[Molly]

I have the Bible in Hebrew and Greek.

It's very easy to read the Bible in original languages these days.

If one wants.

You can be your own translator.

But, then you will see, it's not so easy to translate the concept and intention as it is to translate the word.

[micah7:9]

Well, I find it most unbelievable that the writers of the Bible, inspired by the Holy Spirit, felt that such a  doctrine of a 3 in 1 blessed trinity, would be left to speculation and interpretation, rather than writing out right of such a belief.
I only continue this discussion because if those who believe such a teaching are unable to show a 3 in 1 theory of 3 in 1 persons, blessed trinity. why continue?
The Holy Spirit is no where spoken of or mentioned as a person(other than speculation and interpretation and that quite vague) God is not a man (Num. 23:19)
The trinity believers show Mat 28:19  Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
as their proof[even though it may be questionable the passage was in the original] still it reads "...IN THE NAME..."
which tells me all three have the same name.....and for me that name is Jehovah, Jesus, LORD and again I show Deu 6:4  Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
as well as Joh 10:30  I and my Father are one.
There in plain speak two witnesses, without question of what is meant. Can a trinity believer show in plain text( without speculation and interpretation ) at the least 2 witness where there is a 3 in 1 blessed trinity?

[Molly]

Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD.

--Deut 6:4


Remember the Hebrews used their alphabet to count, as did the Greeks.


That's why Jesus is the alpha and the omega, the first and last letters of the alphabet.


But, here the word, 'one,' is 'echad' in the Hebrew.


"one" [God]


H259

אחד

'echâd

ekh-awd'

A numeral from H258; properly united, that is, one; or (as an ordinal) first: - a, alike, alone, altogether, and, any (-thing), apiece, a certain [dai-] ly, each (one), + eleven, every, few, first, + highway, a man, once, one, only, other, some, together.


It comes from the word "to unify."

It's the same word as used in this verse:


Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

--Genesis 2:24


"one flesh"--uses the same word, 'echad'  for 'one.'


Of course we understand that husband and wife and two people in two separate bodies.


Yet, we can see how their bodies belong to each other in marriage.


And, more, I am sure that something supernatural happens to join them in flesh and spirit, which is why adultery is so awful.


So, since we're doing our own translations, here's mine for Deut 6:4



mollyBible--


Listen intelligently, you who would rule as God, YHWH elohiym is a united YHWH.

[dajomaco]

There was a disciple in Damascus named Ananias. And the Lord said to him in a vision, "Ananias!"

"Here I am, Lord!" he said.
11 "Get up and go to the street called Straight," the Lord said to him, "to the house of Judas, and ask for a man from Tarsus named Saul, since he is praying there. 12 In a vision[a] he has seen a man named Ananias coming in and placing his hands on him so he can regain his sight."
13 "Lord," Ananias answered, "I have heard from many people about this man, how much harm he has done to Your saints in Jerusalem. 14 And he has authority here from the chief priests to arrest all who call on Your name."
15 But the Lord said to him, "Go! For this man is My chosen instrument to take My name to Gentiles, kings, and the Israelites. 16 I will show him how much he must suffer for My name!"
17 So Ananias left and entered the house. Then he placed his hands on him and said, "Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road you were traveling, has sent me so that you can regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit."
18 At once something like scales fell from his eyes, and he regained his sight. Then he got up and was baptized. 19 And after taking some food, he regained his strength.
Saul Proclaiming the Messiah
Saul was with the disciples in Damascus for some days. 20 Immediately he began proclaiming Jesus in the synagogues: "He is the Son of God."

[rosered]

Wonderful dajomaco !!!
  One of my favorite   scriptures !  there is lots of  revelation of Jesus  Christ by the Works of   Holy Spirit of God  the Father in this !
Saul /Paul was given the same  ''gift'' of faith Peter recieved  calling Jesus Christ the SON OF GOD !
it was not flesh and blood that reveled this to him but the Father    giving living works ,
  that is the seal of God ! a measure of faith , and what we do with it is    ask  for  increase  , more faith , hope and LOVE !   
not bury it in our earth [dead works ] And they said, Some [say that thou art] John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. 


Mat 16:15   He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 


Mat 16:16   And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 


Mat 16:17   And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. 


Mat 16:18   And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 
 
simon , means hearing ,   faith comings by  hearing what the Spirit of God is saying , the spoken word  as we are asked , called   by His Spirit   and truth  to come unto Him  that we   might have LIFE  in us

this rock   solid  truth is the revelation   that Peter [now a new name and living stone ] would HELP  in building up the true church / Body of Christ , lifting it up  ,  we are to LIFT UP  and build up one another in Jesus Christ Holy name into the heavenlies  ,  no name under heaven by which  we MUST be saved     .

Mat 16:19   And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. 

1Cr 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and [that] no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.


Saul went from the   name asked  and of the old covenant   priesthood  to the new name Paul meaning small 

shall become the greatest  of server  in the new covenant  priesthood

 
    the scales  that fell off his eyes ,    were  of   the old levitical   priesthood  [Leviathan   Job 41 the  king   over all the   childreen of pride   , the slaughter of bulls and goats    , but   Saul was slaying Gods lambs  , the new covenant     this is why Jesus said , Saul why are you persecuting ME ! HIS  BODY   was being built   up a rasing up     even than   into new Life

   God bless

[micah7:9]

I agree. I believe I will be saying the same thing, Mat 16:16   And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 


Mat 16:17   And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. 


"this rock   solid  truth is the revelation" the revelation was "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.  [/b]"

Like I said I probably said the same thing as you rosered :dsunny:

[rosered]

I agree. I believe I will be saying the same thing, Mat 16:16   And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 


Mat 16:17   And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. 


"this rock   solid  truth is the revelation" the revelation was "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.  [/b]"

Like I said I probably said the same thing as you rosered :dsunny:

:thumbsup:    :dsunny: