Trinity Discussion, split from "Something I Just Read"

[Molly]

Even if I testify about Myself," Jesus replied, "My testimony is valid,[d] because I know where I came from and where I'm going. But you don't know where I come from or where I'm going. 15 You judge by human standards.[e] I judge no one. 16 And if I do judge, My judgment is true, because I am not alone, but I and the Father who sent Me judge together. 17 Even in your law it is written that the witness of two men is valid. 18 I am the One who testifies about Myself, and the Father who sent Me testifies about Me."
Jesus clearly states as a legal argument
1) that jesus testifies about himself.
2) that the Father testifies about Jesus.

He is saying in a righteous court of law,
where there can be no Lies.
No misleading implication .
That there are:
Two Separate witnesses

Yes, all matters are decided by two or three witnesses.  That's why the Spirit within us and the Holy Spirit himself can testify together as two witnesses.



"Every matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses."[2 Cor 13:1]

The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: Rom 8:16

[micah7:9]

So then we only have two witnesses, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. :HeartThrob:



Joh 5:37  `And the Father who sent me Himself hath testified concerning me; ye have neither heard His voice at any time, nor His appearance have ye seen;

Joh 10:30  I and my Father are one.

[Molly]

All three of the trinity were present at the baptism of Jesus.


The dove is the Holy Spirit, in the form of a dove symbolizing the peace made with Noah made after the flood and the arrival of dry land in the body of Christ.

"Peace on earth good will to men. [Lk 2:14]


The dove is also the poor man's sacrifice allowed under the Levitical system.


Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. [Mat 5:3]


John witnesses:


32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.

33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me,

Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God. [John 1]



As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him.

--Mat 3:16



Finally, the Father is also a witness, a literal opening of the heavens, for we are told:


And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Mat 317]





Witnesses to Jesus

31 "If I were to testify on my own behalf, my testimony would not be valid. 32 But someone else is also testifying about me, and I assure you that everything he says about me is true. 33 In fact, you sent investigators to listen to John the Baptist, and his testimony about me was true. 34 Of course, I have no need of human witnesses, but I say these things so you might be saved. 35 John was like a burning and shining lamp, and you were excited for a while about his message. 36 But I have a greater witness than John—my teachings and my miracles. The Father gave me these works to accomplish, and they prove that he sent me. 37 And the Father who sent me has testified about me himself. You have never heard his voice or seen him face to face, 38 and you do not have his message in your hearts, because you do not believe me—the one he sent to you.

[dajomaco]

For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

While Paul was waiting for them in Athens, his spirit was troubled within him when he saw that the city was full of idols.

Was it Paul's spirit that was troubled or was it the Holy Spirit?

[Molly]

For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

While Paul was waiting for them in Athens, his spirit was troubled within him when he saw that the city was full of idols.

Was it Paul's spirit that was troubled or was it the Holy Spirit?

13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teaches, but which the Holy Ghost teaches; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14But the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness to him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15But he that is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. [1Cor 2:4]

[Molly]

The testimony of our own spirit is borne in that cry of conscious sonship, "Abba, Father"; but we are not therein alone; for the Holy Ghost within us, yea, even in that very cry which it is His to draw forth, sets His own distinct seal to ours; and thus, "in the mouth of two witnesses" the thing is established. The apostle had before called us "sons of God," referring to our adoption; here the word changes to "children," referring to our new birth. The one expresses the dignity to which we are admitted; the other the new life which we receive. The latter is more suitable here; because a son by adoption might not be heir of the property, whereas a son by birth certainly is, and this is what the apostle is now coming to.
--Jamieson-Fausett Brown




14. natural man—literally, "a man of animal soul." As contrasted with the spiritual man, he is governed by the animal soul, which overbears his spirit, which latter is without the Spirit of God (Jude 19). So the animal (English Version, "natural") body, or body led by the lower animal nature (including both the mere human fallen reason and heart), is contrasted with the Spirit-quickened body (1Co 15:44-46). The carnal man (the man led by bodily appetites, and also by a self-exalting spirit, estranged from the divine life) is closely akin; so too the "earthly." "Devilish," or "demon-like"; "led by an evil spirit," is the awful character of such a one, in its worst type (Jas 3:15).

--Jamieson-Fausett Brown

[micah7:9]

14. natural man—literally, "a man of animal soul." As contrasted with the spiritual man, he is governed by the animal soul, which overbears his spirit, which latter is without the Spirit of God (Jude 19). So the animal (English Version, "natural") body, or body led by the lower animal nature (including both the mere human fallen reason and heart), is contrasted with the Spirit-quickened body (1Co 15:44-46). The carnal man (the man led by bodily appetites, and also by a self-exalting spirit, estranged from the divine life) is closely akin; so too the "earthly." "Devilish," or "demon-like"; "led by an evil spirit," is the awful character of such a one, in its worst type (Jas 3:15).

--Jamieson-Fausett Brown


Ecc 3:18  I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.
Ecc 3:19  For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
Ecc 3:20  All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
Ecc 3:21  Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

The Bible

13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teaches, but which the Holy Ghost teaches; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14But the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness to him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15But he that is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. [1Cor 2:4] 

So true, so true. :dsunny:

[Molly]

Ecc 3:18  I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.

But, we have the mind of Christ! [1 Cor 2:16]



No, in all these things we have complete victory through Him who loved us!
-- Rom 8:37

[micah7:9]

Very true and praise the Lord. But what has that got to do with the path of natrual carnal human beings, beasts? Man(breathing creature) is still in a frame of dust, even though man is in the progress of change. The mind of Christ works in us who have been drawn and are being changed for good. Should a man die today, he begins his return to dust to await judgment.
But this has nothing to do with a blessed trinity 3 persons in 1. :dsunny:

[micah7:9]

The following list of interpolations is taken from notes by Professor C. Tischendorf, based on the Sinaitic Manuscript which he discovered at the foot of Mount Sinai. There are many others, but those contained in this list seem to be the only ones which materially change the meaning of the texts in which they appear. Although some have contested the exclusion of these, individuals have deemed it wise to delete these from their Bible:


Matthew 28:19 ---"the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit"
The early Church historian Eusebius appears to quote from a different manuscript than any we presently have. Eighteen times between the years 300 and 336-C.E. he cited Matthew 28:19, 20 as: 'Go ye and make disciples of all the nations in my name, teaching them to observe all things, whatsoever I commanded you.'
It is interesting that the traditional Trinitarian reading of Matthew 28:19 does not appear in Eusebius' writings until after the Council of Nicaea, wherein the Trinity began to formally be held as official doctrine. So, evidence strongly indicates that this is a spurious scripture inserted by later Trinitarians, in the same vein as 1 John 5:7-8.

[dajomaco]

I always thought that I had a Spirit.
A spirit that was my own.
That God had, was, is, a Spirit.

That God's Spirit woke my spirit up from sleep and now the Spirit of God teaches
my spirit.
My spirit grows:

Is my Spirit the same as God's Spirit?
Did my spirit now become God's spirit?

Did I ever have a Spirit?
Will I have an eternal identity?   

[Molly]

Very true and praise the Lord. But what has that got to do with the path of natrual carnal human beings, beasts? Man(breathing creature) is still in a frame of dust, even though man is in the progress of change. The mind of Christ works in us who have been drawn and are being changed for good. Should a man die today, he begins his return to dust to await judgment.
But this has nothing to do with a blessed trinity 3 persons in 1. :dsunny:

I guess I can just repeat myself forever because we have forever, Micah, we are not going to die.

Is there something more I could make clear about complete victory?

How about: 

For you will not leave my soul among the dead or allow your holy one to rot in the grave.  Psalm 16:10


We know that we have passed from death unto life... 1John 3:14


It has to do with the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit residing inside of us.

[micah7:9]

Spurious Passages in the Bible

I Corinthians 6:20 -- "and in your spirit, which are God's." An evident attempt to bolster the erroneous theory which was introduced into the church during the Dark Ages that the `spirit' is an entity separate and distinct from the body

[Molly]

I always thought that I had a Spirit.
A spirit that was my own.
That God had, was, is, a Spirit.

That God's Spirit woke my spirit up from sleep and now the Spirit of God teaches
my spirit.
My spirit grows:

Is my Spirit the same as God's Spirit?
Did my spirit now become God's spirit?

Did I ever have a Spirit?
Will I have an eternal identity?

Once the Holy Spirit enters you, you have a Spirit.



And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Counselor to be with you forever.   Jn 14:16

[micah7:9]

Does the Bible Support the Idea of the Trinity?
While the word Trinity is not found in the Bible, is the concept of the Trinity taught clearly in it?
The Encyclopedia of Religion Vol. 15 1987 admits: 'Theologians today are in agreement that the Hebrew Bible does not contain a doctrine of the Trinity.'
The New Catholic Encyclopedia: 'The doctrine of the Holy Trinity is not taught in the Old Testament.'
The Encyclopedia of Religion says: 'Theologians agree that the New Testament also does not contain an explicit doctrine of the Trinity.'
The Encyclopedia Britannica 1976 observes: Neither the word Trinity nor the explicit doctrine appears in the New Testament.'
Protestant theologian Karl Barth (as quoted in The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology 1976) similarly states: 'The New Testament does not contain the developed doctrine of the Trinity. The Bible lacks the express declaration the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are of equal essence.'

I John 5:7 -- "in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." These words were added in an effort to prove the Trinitarian doctrine. It is the only expression in the King James Versionof the Bible that in any way suggests a triune God, but it is spurious, so should not be accepted as part of the inspired Word.

[micah7:9]

Luke 22:29 'And I make a covenant with you, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom.' Since a covenant is a solemn promise between two parties, one does not make a covenant with oneself. Q: Since there is no mention of the Holy Spirit here, how does the Holy Spirit tie into this covenant? On which part of the covenant would the Holy Spirit be, on the Father's side, or on the side of Jesus?

John 14:1 'Do not let your hearts be troubled. Exercise faith in God, exercise faith also in me.' Q: Why would Jesus say to exercise faith in him directly after he had said to exercise faith in God, if Jesus IS God? Doesn't that seem redundant? If Jesus is God, then why does Jesus make a distinction here between 'God' and then 'me'? And, why doesn't Jesus say to exercise faith in the Holy Spirit?

[Molly]

Jesus is the author and perfecter of our faith. [see Heb 12:2]

But it is the Holy Spirit who writes God's laws on our minds and hearts as the New Covenant, so that God can dwell among us and in us.

There is a difference between the faith of Christ and the Holy Spirit.

but I need some time to pull together the scriptures.  Can't do it now.

[Molly]

Commander of the LORD's Armies


The Holy Spirit



13 When Joshua was near the town of Jericho, he looked up and saw a man standing in front of him with sword in hand. Joshua went up to him and demanded, "Are you friend or foe?"

14 "Neither one," he replied. "I am the commander of the Lord's army." 
--Josh 5



Who is this?

I had long thought it was Jesus and just about everyone thinks it is Jesus, as well.

But, this theophany has a sword in his hand.   We see Jesus in Rev 19 with a sword in his mouth.  Jesus is the Word.

We know he is YHWH because Josh 6 identifies him as YHWH

This is further confirmed by the fact that Joshua worships him.  If this were an angel, he would stop the worship immediately as did the angel in Rev 22.

He tells Joshua that he is standing on Holy Ground. and orders him to remove his shoes.


And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my Lord unto his servant?

15 And the captain of the Lord's host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so. Josh 5


Obviously Joshua knows who he is talking to.  Joshua is about to enter into his first battle in the promised land and has been out scouting the area around Jericho.

There is no way Joshua would remove his shoes in such a dangerous circumstance for man or angel.

Then the commander of the Lord's armies tell Joshua he has already won the battle and gives Joshua instructions.

When the Holy Spirit tells us what to do it behooves us to follow his instructions because therein lies the victory.

And the Lord [YHWH] said unto Joshua, See, I have given into thine hand Jericho, and the king thereof, and the mighty men of valour.

3 And ye shall compass the city, all ye men of war, and go round about the city once. Thus shalt thou do six days. Josh 6

We have already seen the Lord's hosts in 2 Kings 6 and it is an impressive sight.

Is this what the people and warriors of Jericho saw as the Israelites marched around their city?

16 He replied, "Don't be afraid, for our side outnumbers them." 17 Then Elisha prayed, "O Lord, open his eyes so he can see." The Lord opened the servant's eyes and he saw that the hill was full of horses and chariots of fire all around Elisha. [2Kings6]

Now the commander of the Lord's hosts is telling Joshua he is fighting the battle for him and Joshua has already won.  The battle, as we know, will proceed in a way that is not only confusing to us, but to the enemy as well.  In fact, it almost looks downright silly.  But, Joshua follows the instructions to a T and the city is his.

It is through the Holy Spirit that our battles are won.  He is the God of comfort and strength.  He is the warrior God, and if he is on our side through the Lord Jesus Christ all battles will eventually be victorious.  This I believe.  For this reason we are not to be discouraged or disheartened.  We are to even be cheerful in the face of adversity because the battle is His.


This is what the LORD says to Zerubbabel: It is not by force nor by strength, but by my Spirit, says the LORD of Heaven's Armies. [Zech 4:6]

[micah7:9]

Personally I don't believe anyone in this thread has denied that the Spirit/Holy Spirit is the power of the Lord God, either in the OT or the NT. But the entity that the Holy Spirit is a separate person of a 3 in 1 blessed trinity, is in the discussion. :dsunny:

[Molly]

Personally I don't believe anyone in this thread has denied that the Spirit/Holy Spirit is the power of the Lord God, either in the OT or the NT. But the entity that the Holy Spirit is a separate person of a 3 in 1 blessed trinity, is in the discussion. :dsunny:

Read it again Micah.

A separate Person is standing there with sword in hand, the commander of the LORD's armies, the third Person of the trinity.

[redhotmagma]

Molly I'm sorry but besides you saying that is the HS, there is not one inkling of evidence saying it is the HS.  Could you bold or highlight why you think thats the case?  ARe you saying its because he carries a sword instead of having one in his mouth?   :dontknow:

[Molly]

We win the battle not by our force or our might [the ways of the world]

but by my Spirit says the LORD of hosts

This has long had a very practical application for me because I've fought
a lot of battles. 

As you know, I maintain--

We saw YHWH Ruach, the Holy Spirit, in 1Kings 19.  He enters the scene with great power, blasting mountains apart, creating earthquakes, throwing fire everywhere.  He is the warrior God of the trinity and not one to be trifled with.

We saw him again, standing on the right hand of the Son, in Psalm 110.  He is the One who will pour out God's wrath on the earth while the Lamb is in chambers with his bride.

Does this sound like Jesus?:

5 The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.

6 He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries.

--Psalm 110


We see him striking the ten bad spies dead on the spot and condemning the Israelites who refuse to believe him to die in the desert without ever entering into his rest.

Does that sound like Jesus?

We saw Ananias and Sapphira drop dead on the spot when they lied to him.

Does that sound like Jesus?

We are told by Jesus himself not to blaspheme him because he won't forgive for two ages.   Does that sound like Jesus?

The third person of the trinity is a formidable foe when he is on our side and fighting for us.  Doors will open and people will fall at our right hand and left but it will not touch us.


"I will send my terror ahead of you and create panic among all the people whose lands you invade. I will make all your enemies turn and run.  Ex 23:27


But, if he decides to fight against us, Annie bar the door, because he does not look anything like Jesus.  He is the God of justice and takes no hostages.


19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:

20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.

23Your princes are rebellious, and companions of thieves: every one loves gifts, and follows after rewards: they judge not the fatherless, neither does the cause of the widow come to them. 24Therefore said the LORD, the LORD of hosts, the mighty One of Israel, Ah, I will ease me of my adversaries, and avenge me of my enemies: 25And I will turn my hand on you, and purely purge away your dross, and take away all your tin:

28 And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the Lord shall be consumed. [Isa 1]

[dajomaco]

There are a number of free sites that offer dozen of different versions
You can do a key word search in any version.
The Holman version has 573 instances where the spirit is mentioned.
I could not see any thing that would remotely support the trinity.

I found this interesting
Then Micaiah said, "Therefore, hear the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on His throne, and the whole heavenly host was standing by Him at His right hand and at His left hand. 20 And the LORD said, 'Who will entice Ahab to march up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?' So one was saying this and another was saying that.
21 "Then a spirit came forward, stood before the LORD, and said, 'I will entice him.'
22 "The LORD asked him, 'How?'
"He said, 'I will go and become a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.'
"Then He said, 'You will certainly entice him and prevail. Go and do that.'
23 "You see, the LORD has put a lying spirit into the mouth of all these prophets of yours, and the LORD has pronounced disaster against you."

[Molly]

Jesus spends a lot of his ministry casting out demons.

Demons act like persons and even have names.


Then Jesus asked him, "What is your name?" "My name is Legion," he replied, "for we are many."

--Mark 5:9


Obviously things go on in the spirit world that we might not quite understand.

Legion says 'my name' and then says 'we.'

[dajomaco]

There are hundreds of instances where God says he will pour out his spirit,
or put a portion of his spirit on.....

Other than the personification of God

I personally have a hard time personifying God's spirit.