Hi everybody

[ProDeo]

My name is Ed, I am from Holland. I am new to UR but find it instinctively attractive for my Christian mind. In the meantime I have read quite some stuff on the web site that favors UR, some really good points are made.

I am puzzled about one major thing, here is: I understand that ET slipped into Judaism in the 450 year period God did not spoke to Israel through the prophets. So why did our Lord not spoke against it when He walked among us? Instead (I feel) He endorsed pagan hell in rather strong wordings.

What am I missing ?

[lomarah]

Just wanted to say hello and welcome to you! I don't know much about when hell doctrine slipped into mainstream views but I know that Jesus used strong and popular wording to bring points across to the listeners of His day, and He often used humor but much of it gets lost in translation. There is a great thread by a former member, Whitewings, where he posted a whole bunch of hebrew idioms that Jesus used. I think if you do a search for "idiom" it would probably pop up. It may help answer some of your questions!

Blessings to you!

[Lazarus Short]

I may be incorrect, but I always got the impression that in Judaism, you're saved because you're a Jew.  Anybody know different? 

Whatever, welcome Ed from Holland!  I hope you're with us for a while.  :friendstu:

[ded2daworld]

The Jews believed they were. Their circumcision was comparable to baptism nowadays. Just as people mostly believe that they are saved if they are Baptized, then they believed if you were circumcised (only Jews were circumcised before health studies showed the benefits of circumcision) then you were  saved. A jewess (female jew) was the daughter of a jewish circumcised male and thus was considered saved.
Jesus said, people are saved by faith. (Like Rahab, Abraham before circumcision, and outsiders that adopted the faith and were circumcised) The old testament says that righteousness is by faith. On the other hand, Paul says that all Israel shall be saved. We (UR people) know that is true but it is certainly a stumbling block to nowadays evangelicals that say one MUST accept Christ in this lifetime to be saved(except for Jews, retarded, insane, too young, never heard, etc.) :laughing7:

[redhotmagma]

not to jump off topic but the health studies for circumcision are pretty suspect, and there are conflicting newer studies that show negative health effects, and modern circumcision aka that done in the US (since its pretty much only done in the US for medical reasons) is not the same as Jewish circumcision.  Much much less was taken in Jewish circumcision.

[ded2daworld]

They don't wait till the 8th day to circumsize when the biological conditions (immune system) is at it's peak.
Statistics show that women married to uncircumcised men are 3 times more likely to get cervical cancer and men are 35 times more likely to have penile cancer. A great book is "None of these diseases" which shows how the Jewish dietary law and health practices benefitted people thousands of years before science told them why. There have been no studies that show not being circumcised  :Peace2:is beneficial.

[ProDeo]

Thanks guys for the warm reception.

Regarding the OT, indeed, as far as I know only Daniel hints to something that can be explained as hell but without the flames and torment. Afterlife is hardly an issue in the OT.

Dan 12:2 - And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

What we read from the Lord is totally new, hell. Flames. Torment (Rev 14:10, 20:10).

Matt 25:41 - Then he will say to those on his left,  Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Matt 25:46 - And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

I don't get it, it's Jesus Himself who introduces the concept of hell.

So you see my my stumble block to accept UR, something I would really love to embrace because the rest fits pretty seamlessly. I guess you all had your own struggle before accepting UR, how did you deal with this one?

[jabcat]

Hi.  I look at a few differerent things.  One, Jesus used illustrations, allegory, similitudes.  I also WONDER if He also may have taken some things people believed at the time in the culture around Him, and used them in His illustrations to make the overall better point (such as the Lazarus parable - "flames", bosom of Abraham, etc., and we've taken those things to mean "eternal hell" and heaven, for instance).  However, that brings up another issue.  I believe Jesus also addressed the coming judgment of 70 AD in some of his ministry points, such as again, the Lazarus parable.  I believe that had to do with the fall of temple worship (including animal sacrifice vs. The All-Sufficient Sacrifice of the Lamb of God), the Jewish religious leadership being about to lose their place of privilege and power, and the "poor man" (us, the Gentiles) [temporarily] assuming their position of favor (grace to us, the Good News to the Nations/Gentiles).  Those religious leaders were actually either thrown into the fire of Gehenna [Valley], or destroyed by being crushed and/or in fire within the temple as it was destroyed (many of them sought refuge/clung to their treasures in the temple as it was being demolished).

There are a couple of good articles on the main page, one "Bible Threatenings Explained", and the other has to do with Jesus/the Bible's use of colorful Eastern language, with which our western mindset often has a hard time sorting through.  I'll try to find both of those links.  Blessings, James.

[jabcat]

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html


http://www.tentmaker.org/Biblematters/hyperbole.htm

[jbertonbounds]

Hello ProDeo,

Welcome, my brother.
It all has to do with mistranslations of the original scriptures through ignorance and tradition.
The Greek and Hebrew words that were translated as "hell" and "eternal" in most bible translations never meant hell and eternal in the first place.
The word "hell" does not belong in your bible translation.
There are several words that have been commonly translated as "hell" and "eternal:" sheol, hades, Gehenna, tartarus, aion, aionios.

Correct definitions:
Sheol (Hebrew) - grave.
Hades (Greek) - grave, place of the unconscious, place of the unknowing.
Gehenna (Greek) - a geographic location near Jerusalem you can visit today, used as a garbage dump in Jesus' time; thus a figurative term.
Tartarus (Greek)- a place of holding for angels who followed Satan; a term borrowed from Greek mythology.
Aion (Greek), noun - an age; an indefinite period of time.
Aionios (Greek), adjective - lasting for an age, for the ages, or for an indefinite period of time.

Let me summarize here.  Sheol does not mean hell.  Hades does not mean hell.  Gehenna does not mean hell.  Tartarus does not mean hell.  Hell does not belong in your bible.  An aion is not an eternity.  Aionios does not mean eternal or everlasting.  Everlasting hell is a pagan myth!

When one learns and accepts these truths, the scriptures take on a whole new meaning that will change your life and you will feel so much closer to Jesus, the savior of ALL mankind!  UR makes sense!  Whatever you do, don't go and talk to your pastor about it!  He will only try to steer you back to hell.  Let it go.  Let the Spirit steer you, dear brother, and him alone. 

Check out these websites for a more thorough understanding of these things:
tentmaker.org, what-the-hell-is-hell.com, lovewins.us, martinzender.com, gods-kingdom-ministries.net, bible-truths.com

[bushy]

J, very good, clear and to the point. These are the main words needing to be understood correctly instead of the normal mistranslations.  Thanks for that.  :gimmefive:

[jbertonbounds]

J, very good, clear and to the point. These are the main words needing to be understood correctly instead of the normal mistranslations.  Thanks for that.  :gimmefive:

:URWelcome:

[rosered]

  Hello Ed , from Holland  :welcome:
Hope you  find the peace and joy in the Lords salvation  fully  :dsunny:

[ProDeo]

Hi.  I look at a few differerent things. 

Yes, I got all the logic what you are saying, thank you James, also for the links.

[ProDeo]

When one learns and accepts these truths, the scriptures take on a whole new meaning that will change your life and you will feel so much closer to Jesus, the savior of ALL mankind!  UR makes sense!

Absolutely (2x).

Whatever you do, don't go and talk to your pastor about it!  He will only try to steer you back to hell.

:laughing7: 

I know.

And I will wear my new status as an heretic with pride, don't worry.  :laugh:

Allow me another question. It's about election, the elected. I assume in UR it means something else as in typical Protestantism. In UR the elect are those in the first resurrection?

[onlytruth]

Hi prodeo ,I have relatives over there , mostly in Friesland ,been back and forth five times to visit all my moms family still there.
My take on the elect,anyone "raised up" to do the things required of the Father
Tut siens(is that spelled right?) :)

[ProDeo]

Hi prodeo ,I have relatives over there , mostly in Friesland ,been back and forth five times to visit all my moms family still there.
My take on the elect,anyone "raised up" to do the things required of the Father
Tut siens(is that spelled right?) :)

Hi friend, that's cool man, Friesland is a small part of pinhead Holland and those peole have quite a tradition of their own. Own Language, own flag, proud to be a Fries. Dutch are funny people.

Tut siens, the pronunciation is okay :laugh:, the spelling is: tot ziens. Close, but still a cigar  :thumbsup:

[ProDeo]

Hello people of the tent, I am bit disappointed that nobody really could give me a sound Scriptural answer on my 2 questions raised in this thread, especially the first one which I consider crucial.

Nevertheless I want to thank you for your efforts and maybe I will be back if the Lord is willing.

Bless you all.

[jabcat]

I thought some good things were offered, but we must have not connected somehow. 

[jbertonbounds]

Stay with us.  Keep talking to other believers.  You'll learn as you go, like we do.

However, look to God for answers, understanding, and wisdom.  We're just humans.

May God bless you in your search for truth.
NEVER STOP SEARCHING! :dsunny: