Finding Church as a Believer in Universal Reconciliation and the Real Presence?

[jinc1910]

Hi everyone...
This is my first time posting on this forum (although I frequently post on several other religious forums). I have been searching for a church for about 2-3 years now and I have basically looked into almost every major denomination in the United States. During this search, I learned a lot about Christian universalism and have really come to believe it quite whole-hardheartedly. Although I do believe that some souls will inevitably pass to "hell," which I think is more like the Catholic version of purgatory than anything else, I believe eventually everyone will come to have faith in Christ, in this life or the next. Tentmakers has been a big part of this finding by the way and I am very grateful for all of the excellent efforts made by so many here who are passionate about this cause.

Having this belief has, however, made it difficult to find a good church home. I am somewhat conservative on many other issues regarding Christianity but many of the more conservative denominations tend to be very strict about supporting eternal damnation. Coupled with the fact that I believe in the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist (in some form) and I have a high view of the sacraments in general (although I do not think they are necessary for salvation),  there aren't a whole lot of choices out there.

So my question to all of you is: What is the best denomination choice for someone who believes in universal reconciliation and the Real Presence of Jesus in the Lord's Supper (at least spiritually)? Theologically, does Lutheranism, Calvinism, Roman Catholicism, or any other branch within Christianity "fit" with universal reconciliation better or worse than the others? Again, for me the Real Presence is a deal-breaker so Baptists, non-denominational churches, and many other churches which support only a memorialist view of the Real Presence are not real options for me. I guess that leaves Lutherans, Reformed churches, Orthodox churches, Roman Catholics, Methodists, and Anglicans as the only choices. Are any of these groups more accepting of universal reconciliation than others? Will I be required to be silent about my belief in universal reconciliation? Any help at all on this topic would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you all in advance for your time and wisdom!

Justin

[jbertonbounds]

I left the organized church recently.  I had the same hope of finding another church where I could talk about the true gospel of victory (universal reconciliation).  They are virtually non-existent, at least in my area.  I soon realized that my only alternative was to have bible study/worship groups in homes with like-minded believers (and there aren't many of us out there).  The reason I left the organized church was because the organization hurts people (like me).  If you don't subscribe to their doctrine, they will first ask you to keep quiet.  Then if you don't keep quiet, they will "take action," which will vary depending upon the level of love in their hearts.  Some will strip you of any positions you hold in the church, others will flatly kick you out and shun you.  I often thought to myself, "Why can't we believe differently on some points in the doctrine and still worship and serve together?"  The answer: Because they have too little faith in God, and too much faith in their organization (aka social club).  They believe they must protect their organization!  Ask yourself this question: Is finding a church where I can be comfortable what I want, or what God wants?  For me it was what I wanted - the tradition of going to church every Sunday was a life-long habit.  It was hard to break, but with God's help, I got through it.  It came with much grief for my church, my friends, my wife (who didn't take it very well), and myself because I just felt this yearning to continue doing what I had always done.  I doubt this was the answer you were looking for, but this was the reality for me.  May God bless you in your walk with him.  Seek the Light, the Truth, the Love - not another organized religion.
:dsunny:

[jinc1910]

I left the organized church recently.  I had the same hope of finding another church where I could talk about the true gospel of victory (universal reconciliation).  They are virtually non-existent, at least in my area.  I soon realized that my only alternative was to have bible study/worship groups in homes with like-minded believers (and there aren't many of us out there).  The reason I left the organized church was because the organization hurts people (like me).  If you don't subscribe to their doctrine, they will first ask you to keep quiet.  Then if you don't keep quiet, they will "take action," which will vary depending upon the level of love in their hearts.  Some will strip you of any positions you hold in the church, others will flatly kick you out and shun you.  I often thought to myself, "Why can't we believe differently on some points in the doctrine and still worship and serve together?"  The answer: Because they have too little faith in God, and too much faith in their organization (aka social club).  They believe they must protect their organization!  Ask yourself this question: Is finding a church where I can be comfortable what I want, or what God wants?  For me it was what I wanted - the tradition of going to church every Sunday was a life-long habit.  It was hard to break, but with God's help, I got through it.  It came with much grief for my church, my friends, my wife (who didn't take it very well), and myself because I just felt this yearning to continue doing what I had always done.  I doubt this was the answer you were looking for, but this was the reality for me.  May God bless you in your walk with him.  Seek the Light, the Truth, the Love - not another organized religion.
:dsunny:

I certainly appreciate you telling me your story. I can and do understand your position. It does seem to me, although I have never personally experienced it, that those like yourself are not welcomed in traditional denominations. This is obviously my fear.

Unfortunately, I don't think I could just go at it alone like you are able to do. Theologically, I believe Christianity is supposed to be about community and about the sacraments. You can't have sacraments outside of the church...so it becomes very difficult for me to just say "Well none of them have it right so I will just do things on my own."

I can certainly respect your decision to do so, but for me, I think the sacraments are too important to just give up on. I have to make the best of the situation, whatever that may be. Thank you though for sharing your opinion and frustrations.

-Justin

[rosered]

  Hi Justin ,
I would love to help you ,     your best bet to me would be read about the 7 churches in Revelation   and how the Lord judged them accoding to their works  , many  were dead works 
the only one commened  by the Lord Jesus  was the Philadelphia church ,  meaning brotherly love

   You are the temple of the Living God  the Kingdom of God is within YOU ! 
  seek His rest by a personal relationship   first
I am always reminded by the parable Jesus spoke about the  ''house ''  that was swept and garnished , by the Lord s preparing to make his abode within him and what did he do , went out from his house seeking rest and finding none !!     and brought back seven other spirits more wicked that him and the last state of that man were worse than the first   

I always applied this to go church shopping , Babylon    is confusion by mixing

and you will only bring torment upon your own head  /mind ,heart , 
I know its hard to find a peacful place to worship the Father in Spirit and in truth  ,  if you pray for help surly God will send you some ,     be welland blessings   to you and yours

[lomarah]

Hi Justin! I was like you at first, I was very hesitant to come out of the church. But I left about 3 years ago and I am so glad I did. Pray for guidance like Rosie said. He will lead you. :)

I'm not sure what you mean by the sacraments, but there is nothing that cannot be done "where two or three are gathered in My name". Since coming out of the organized church He has brought me friends (Christian sisters and brothers) who I would not trade a billion church members for. Anything we have to give up for His sake (and He IS the TRUTH) He will give us 100 times more! (And that speaks to me not necessarily just about the quantity but the QUALITY of what He will bring us. And I can testify to it!)

Blessings to you as you seek His will for you in this area of your life.  :smile:

[sheila]

  Jinc;   I did not have that particular problem with the sacrements,bcoz to me..they were but the emblems..of the spiritual reality of knowing Him.....

  as you grow in intimacy with Him..through the Holy spirit, I hope your 'issue' with this will resolve itself....

   when He comes to sup with you in a very personal relationship...hopefully you will easier let go of the 'emblem' for the actual real thing.

   God Bless you

[jbertonbounds]

Hi Justin! I was like you at first, I was very hesitant to come out of the church. But I left about 3 years ago and I am so glad I did. Pray for guidance like Rosie said. He will lead you. :)

I'm not sure what you mean by the sacraments, but there is nothing that cannot be done "where two or three are gathered in My name". Since coming out of the organized church He has brought me friends (Christian sisters and brothers) who I would not trade a billion church members for. Anything we have to give up for His sake (and He IS the TRUTH) He will give us 100 times more! (And that speaks to me not necessarily just about the quantity but the QUALITY of what He will bring us. And I can testify to it!)

Blessings to you as you seek His will for you in this area of your life.  :smile:

LIKE

[lastpost]

Dear Justin,

It is possible to perform your own Rites should you not feel "right" in some churches, it is the heart and motive that matters. I and a small number partake in the Rite of Remembrance on the first Sunday of the month in our little church.

I pray it may be of aid to you in your concerns if I pass on a little of what I believe of the matter of the Sacrament of His Body and Blood which has many phases and which is of much note and concern to me as I profess the Name of the Christ my Master. Of course, everybody has their own opinion which will differ from my preferred belief and you will have yours too, yet if I share what I have come to believe as true it may be of help, God willing:

The Master Jesus was about to change His state from the incarnate to the discarnate. Knowing this, He, being assembled with the Twelve, gave to them a Rite of Remembrance and of Communion by which they and those who should follow them might be able from time to time perpetually to intensify their contact with Him, and so draw from Him that Life of which Himself is the reservoir. You may be able to see that so sensitive is the quivering and pulsating life-stream coming down from Him to us that the very slightest disturbance in the system of vibrations, obtaining in their own special and peculiar quality throughout that radius which is His Kingdom, will cause an effect at the Centre and Source of it of so manifest a nature as to ensure some immediate response. For there is nothing in the economy of the Earth of such enormous intensity and momentum that can be applied as a type by which to make in any way clear the meaning. It must satisfy us that we are reminded that the greater the velocity of any series of particles in motion, the greater the disturbance to their arrangement and direction given by any intruding influence.

That is what is implied in speaking of this stream of vital force proceeding from the Father, arrested in the Christ, tinctured with His quality of life, and projected outward in radiating waves towards the circumference and boundary of His Kingdom. Such a disturbance is created by the wilful offering of the Bread and Wine, with prayerful entreaty of words, in that Rite of Communion which He gave. On the elements displayed before the assembly there is, at the words of prayer, directed this vital stream, and they are interpenetrated with the Life of Him and become, as He said, Body and Blood of Him. That form of prayer used is not alone of the nature of supplication, but also is the assent of those assembled to the receiving of Life from Him. For without such assent no blessing is ever thrust upon men. It matters not if the assent be silent. It is the spirit which is the source of those responsive pulsations which leap forth to meet the flowing of His Life earthward and, meeting this Christ-stream, like those who came from Salem to meet Him when He rode to the city over Olivet, are commingled and, by reason of the greater momentum of that stream set forward by Him, are turned back and together, as one stream, they fall plashing upon the congregation from which the initial impulse of pleading came.

So the blessing is threefold:

First, the communion of spirit with Spirit — that of the worshippers with their Master and Lord.
Second, the quickening into greater health and vigour of their spiritual covering, the soul.
And third, the natural effect of those operations, still proceeding outward, namely, the transfusing of the inner vitality into the over-clothing, which is the body material.

This is the phase which we may name the vitalizing or quickening of the whole Body of the Christ in its singular members, each and each, by the communicating of the Life of Him from the Source and Centre through the mass to the circumference.

There is another aspect of this Sacrament to consider but in brevity as this thing reaches far beyond where tongues of earth are remembered, and is spoken of, in its inner mystery, only in those forms of language proper to the heavens far removed in sublimity, and near that of the Christ.

As He said, those two common things of earthly origin, the Bread and the Wine, do come to be His Body and His Blood. They are therefore a part of Him Who spoke those words. Men have asked how this could be when on that first occasion of their utterance Himself was present in Body of flesh and bones and blood. But yet, every man—without ceasing, all his life, and sustainedly—does communicate of himself to things without himself. No coat he wears but, flung aside, is marked with the impress of his personality. No thing he touches, no house he inhabits, but he leaves his quality there indelible.

As He gave of His vitalizing force to the sick and halt in Judaea and Galilee, as He breathed of His spirit power upon the Apostles and they became inspired of His Life, so upon the Bread and Wine did He pour of the life-stream of Himself and they did in verity become His Body and His Blood.

And so it is to-day. For He did not offer so great a thing to snatch it away so soon as that meal was ended and His Body given to the Tree. No, the Source of that vital river operative on the Bread and Wine or on the persons of the Apostles or on the bodies of the multitude was not that Body of flesh He wore for so short a time and then laid it by like a cloak past wearing. Nor was it the Body of spirit substance, through which it did but flow as through a conduit from the Reservoir into the cisterns of a town. But it was the Spirit Himself, the Christ, Who was and is the Source, and that, too, whether in the Body of flesh or out of it. For that little matters in things of spirit force and power, except by way of manifestation. The thing manifested is unaltered in itself whatever form the manifestation take.

So it is true to say that the Bread and Wine at the last meal of theirs together, at His wish and will, became depository of His life-force, and so were made His Body and His Blood. And so, far from the present lack of that Body material hindering now a similar operation on His part, it would almost be true to say that now the way is made more easy and direct by the absence of one medium. At least, it is entirely true to say that such absence of the Body of flesh forms no hindrance to the flow of life from Him to these elements of Bread and Wine.

When therefore the Ministrant, the Priest, takes up the consent of the congregation and, laying the Body and Blood upon the Board, pleads the Sacrifice of Him Who lives to-day very highly exalted, he in essential places his hand upon the bosom of his Lord and, looking into those Realms which are the abode of Angels, and of Angels who rule, looks towards the Father's face and pleads the Love and allegiance of His Son for poor humanity's sake that they be made all beautiful as He. And if he be of simple mind and in heart a little child of the Kingdom he shall feel within that Breast beneath his hand the quiet strong beating of the one constant Heart in Christendom to-day, and shall know that what his weakness will not bear to do shall have reinforcement of the Life which wells within, and that what pleading is his with the Father goes not unaided into that bright Sphere of awful purity, and holiness so still, but as He promised so He keeps at hand to perform, and out of His Heart goes forth a sighing prayer, and our prayers are acceptable for His sake.

I hope this helps and would reiterate that this Sacrament can be performed alone or with Two or three.

[Wayfaring Stranger]

And after these things I saw another messenger coming down out of the heaven, having great authority, and the earth was lightened from his glory,

2 and he did cry in might -- a great voice, saying, `Fall, fall did Babylon the great, and she became a habitation of demons, and a hold of every unclean spirit, and a hold of every unclean and hateful bird,

3 because of the wine of the wrath of her whoredom have all the nations drunk, and the kings of the earth with her did commit whoredom, and merchants of the earth from the power of her revel were made rich.

4 And I heard another voice out of the heaven, saying, `Come forth out of her, My people, that ye may not partake with her sins, and that ye may not receive of her plagues,

5 because her sins did follow -- unto the heaven, and God did remember her unrighteousness.

-Revelation 18:1-5

This passage is talking about the Christian religious system.  I bounced around different Christian denominations and various different religions and I kept being frustrated.  Every time I felt a spiritual calling I would run back to church, sometimes Protestant, but most of the time I went back to the Catholic Church and my spiritual calling would get squashed.  I got so frustrated that I just gave up on it all and just left God, or thought I did.

God called me back and now I'm thankful I went through the headaches and the heartaches with organized religion because God was showing me the futility of it all.  God showed me the dead end of organized religion and I believe He has called me out of "Babylon the great."  I understand the desire to find a church setting as that was big for me at a time but I believe one day God will call you out of the Babylonian church system.

[jinc1910]

First of all, I greatly appreciate the effort everyone has put into this thread. It does mean a lot and I assure each of you that I read each post even if I do not respond to everyone.

Second, I am especially thankful to those of you who have testified to the great strength you have received from leaving an organized church. I know that for many of you that must have been a very difficult and heart-wrenching decision. I am very happy that so many of you have found peace in your spiritual lives.

However, I must insist that I could not ever find peace living in a similar way. I have read the arguments made against Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist and I have studied the issue at great length. While I certainly do not wish to debate the reasons for coming to the conclusion that I have, I must state very clearly that my beliefs, which are not fleeting on this matter, are similar to those of Luther, the Church Fathers, the RCC, Wesley, and others. I believe the sacraments are more than just symbols or reminders and I also believe that they cannot be properly performed except by an ordained clergyman.

I know that many of you may disagree with this position...and I certainly can respect that view. But, personally, I cannot take that view on myself.

So in that light, my question for all of you is:

If you HAD to choose a denomination to be a part of, while also maintaining your beliefs in universal reconciliation...Which denomination would you choose and why?

[Ken]

Hello Justin,

Perhaps the real issue is that of understanding the difference between a "church" and an "ekklesia" (as original Christians regarded their gatherings)? All churches have one thing in common - they want to control you (and what you believe).

True Christianity does not involve becoming a member of any church - or ekklesia. However, if one wants to grow in grace and knowledge, it is quite helpful to be associated with those that also share that same growth desire. According to Google, there is only one proclaimed online ekklesia that believes in universal reconciliation:

http://ernestlmartin.com/ekklesia.htm

Regarding your first question regarding "hell", I think the issue can be clarified immensely by understanding the two resurrection periods commencing at the time of Jesus' return:

http://ernestlmartin.com/kingdomofgod-firstresurrection.htm

Be sure to read all articles of the hyperlinked words for a more comprehensive understanding.

Remember that universal reconciliation is only one of about 21 points of doctrine that a Christian should be aware of. Best wishes on your journey.

Ken

[Wayfaring Stranger]

First of all, I greatly appreciate the effort everyone has put into this thread. It does mean a lot and I assure each of you that I read each post even if I do not respond to everyone.

Second, I am especially thankful to those of you who have testified to the great strength you have received from leaving an organized church. I know that for many of you that must have been a very difficult and heart-wrenching decision. I am very happy that so many of you have found peace in your spiritual lives.

However, I must insist that I could not ever find peace living in a similar way. I have read the arguments made against Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist and I have studied the issue at great length. While I certainly do not wish to debate the reasons for coming to the conclusion that I have, I must state very clearly that my beliefs, which are not fleeting on this matter, are similar to those of Luther, the Church Fathers, the RCC, Wesley, and others. I believe the sacraments are more than just symbols or reminders and I also believe that they cannot be properly performed except by an ordained clergyman.

I know that many of you may disagree with this position...and I certainly can respect that view. But, personally, I cannot take that view on myself.

So in that light, my question for all of you is:

If you HAD to choose a denomination to be a part of, while also maintaining your beliefs in universal reconciliation...Which denomination would you choose and why?

No mainstream Christian denomination is going to teach the Biblical message of salvation for all and most denominations will suffocate authentic spirituality with some degree of carnal Phariseeism and legalism.  However given that you seem bent on finding an organized church home and you have a sacramental view I would recommend the Orthodox church.  I spent some time studying and reading about it the OC and I attended a few Divine Liturgies (their equivalent to mass) and they seem a touch less legalistic than the RCC.  Just my opinion though.

[jinc1910]

Hello Justin,

Perhaps the real issue is that of understanding the difference between a "church" and an "ekklesia" (as original Christians regarded their gatherings)? All churches have one thing in common - they want to control you (and what you believe).

True Christianity does not involve becoming a member of any church - or ekklesia. However, if one wants to grow in grace and knowledge, it is quite helpful to be associated with those that also share that same growth desire. According to Google, there is only one proclaimed online ekklesia that believes in universal reconciliation:

http://ernestlmartin.com/ekklesia.htm

Regarding your first question regarding "hell", I think the issue can be clarified immensely by understanding the two resurrection periods commencing at the time of Jesus' return:

http://ernestlmartin.com/kingdomofgod-firstresurrection.htm

Be sure to read all articles of the hyperlinked words for a more comprehensive understanding.

Remember that universal reconciliation is only one of about 21 points of doctrine that a Christian should be aware of. Best wishes on your journey.

Ken

Dear Ken,
Thank you for the resources. I will look them over carefully!

[jinc1910]

First of all, I greatly appreciate the effort everyone has put into this thread. It does mean a lot and I assure each of you that I read each post even if I do not respond to everyone.

Second, I am especially thankful to those of you who have testified to the great strength you have received from leaving an organized church. I know that for many of you that must have been a very difficult and heart-wrenching decision. I am very happy that so many of you have found peace in your spiritual lives.

However, I must insist that I could not ever find peace living in a similar way. I have read the arguments made against Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist and I have studied the issue at great length. While I certainly do not wish to debate the reasons for coming to the conclusion that I have, I must state very clearly that my beliefs, which are not fleeting on this matter, are similar to those of Luther, the Church Fathers, the RCC, Wesley, and others. I believe the sacraments are more than just symbols or reminders and I also believe that they cannot be properly performed except by an ordained clergyman.

I know that many of you may disagree with this position...and I certainly can respect that view. But, personally, I cannot take that view on myself.

So in that light, my question for all of you is:

If you HAD to choose a denomination to be a part of, while also maintaining your beliefs in universal reconciliation...Which denomination would you choose and why?

No mainstream Christian denomination is going to teach the Biblical message of salvation for all and most denominations will suffocate authentic spirituality with some degree of carnal Phariseeism and legalism.  However given that you seem bent on finding an organized church home and you have a sacramental view I would recommend the Orthodox church.  I spent some time studying and reading about it the OC and I attended a few Divine Liturgies (their equivalent to mass) and they seem a touch less legalistic than the RCC.  Just my opinion though.

Dear Wayfaring...

Thank you for your time and efforts. I agree that no mainstream modern Christian denomination will support salvation for all. I was trying to find one that would be more tolerant about the idea than others, and therefore, I appreciate your suggestion of the Eastern Orthodox Church. I am considering it carefully. I have some big issues with them, but less than many others I suppose...and many Orthodox in the past have supported UR.

[Wayfaring Stranger]

First of all, I greatly appreciate the effort everyone has put into this thread. It does mean a lot and I assure each of you that I read each post even if I do not respond to everyone.

Second, I am especially thankful to those of you who have testified to the great strength you have received from leaving an organized church. I know that for many of you that must have been a very difficult and heart-wrenching decision. I am very happy that so many of you have found peace in your spiritual lives.

However, I must insist that I could not ever find peace living in a similar way. I have read the arguments made against Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist and I have studied the issue at great length. While I certainly do not wish to debate the reasons for coming to the conclusion that I have, I must state very clearly that my beliefs, which are not fleeting on this matter, are similar to those of Luther, the Church Fathers, the RCC, Wesley, and others. I believe the sacraments are more than just symbols or reminders and I also believe that they cannot be properly performed except by an ordained clergyman.

I know that many of you may disagree with this position...and I certainly can respect that view. But, personally, I cannot take that view on myself.

So in that light, my question for all of you is:

If you HAD to choose a denomination to be a part of, while also maintaining your beliefs in universal reconciliation...Which denomination would you choose and why?

No mainstream Christian denomination is going to teach the Biblical message of salvation for all and most denominations will suffocate authentic spirituality with some degree of carnal Phariseeism and legalism.  However given that you seem bent on finding an organized church home and you have a sacramental view I would recommend the Orthodox church.  I spent some time studying and reading about it the OC and I attended a few Divine Liturgies (their equivalent to mass) and they seem a touch less legalistic than the RCC.  Just my opinion though.

Dear Wayfaring...

Thank you for your time and efforts. I agree that no mainstream modern Christian denomination will support salvation for all. I was trying to find one that would be more tolerant about the idea than others, and therefore, I appreciate your suggestion of the Eastern Orthodox Church. I am considering it carefully. I have some big issues with them, but less than many others I suppose...and many Orthodox in the past have supported UR.

Don't get me wrong, Universal Reconciliation is just one facet of the overall message of Christ.  It's not the end all be all of following Jesus.  However I find that teaching hell and the soul crushing burden of institutional religion go almost hand in hand.  The RCC and to an extent the E.O. churches are fraught with all kinds of extra-Biblical teachings and traditions.  God has slowly dragged me towards this revelation this didn't come to me one day out of the blue it was years of God's pushing me into the position He wants in that got me in my current place in life.

However your path is yours to walk not mine or anyone else.  God is working all things in accordance with His Will and I talk to you until I'm blue in the face but it won't matter because I can't bring you to the truth, the priest, pastor, minister, not even the Pope can bring you to the truth.  There is only One who can lead someone to The Truth.

Also you -- being dead in the trespasses and the sins,

2 in which once ye did walk according to the age of this world, according to the ruler of the authority of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience,

3 among whom also we all did walk once in the desires of our flesh, doing the wishes of the flesh and of the thoughts, and were by nature children of wrath -- as also the others,

4 and God, being rich in kindness, because of His great love with which He loved us,

5 even being dead in the trespasses, did make us to live together with the Christ, (by grace ye are having been saved,)

6 and did raise [us] up together, and did seat [us] together in the heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus,

7 that He might show, in the ages that are coming, the exceeding riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus,

8 for by grace ye are having been saved, through faith, and this not of you -- of God the gift,

9 not of works, that no one may boast;

10 for of Him we are workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to good works, which God did before prepare, that in them we may walk.

Ephesians 2:1-10.

It's important to listen to the Spirit of the Lord and discern where He is calling you.  It's not about where you want to be or where the pope wants you to be or where your parents want you to be, it's about where God wants you to be.  It's much easier to give up and listen to God the first time because He won't stop working on you until He has you positioned where He wants you, trust me it took some time for my eyes to be opened and God's not done with me yet.

[Molly]

It's important to listen to the Spirit of the Lord and discern where He is calling you.  It's not about where you want to be or where the pope wants you to be or where your parents want you to be, it's about where God wants you to be.  It's much easier to give up and listen to God the first time because He won't stop working on you until He has you positioned where He wants you, trust me it took some time for my eyes to be opened and God's not done with me yet.

I agree, Wayfaring Stranger, that's what it means to be born of the Spirit.

The Spirit places/tells you where he wants you to be and what he wants you to do.

I'm wondering why some here don't become missionaries to the churches...?

Maybe the Spirit hasn't moved them, yet...

[jbertonbounds]

I'm wondering why some here don't become missionaries to the churches...?

Maybe the Spirit hasn't moved them, yet...

I did.  They told me I needed to be quiet.  They were talking about taking disciplinary action.  :sigh: The Spirit told me to leave.  I decided to stay a little while longer, but He stopped me the next day!  Maybe I'll join another church sometime in the future, if the Spirit leads me there, and become a missionary again. :Chinscratch:

[jinc1910]

First of all, I greatly appreciate the effort everyone has put into this thread. It does mean a lot and I assure each of you that I read each post even if I do not respond to everyone.

Second, I am especially thankful to those of you who have testified to the great strength you have received from leaving an organized church. I know that for many of you that must have been a very difficult and heart-wrenching decision. I am very happy that so many of you have found peace in your spiritual lives.

However, I must insist that I could not ever find peace living in a similar way. I have read the arguments made against Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist and I have studied the issue at great length. While I certainly do not wish to debate the reasons for coming to the conclusion that I have, I must state very clearly that my beliefs, which are not fleeting on this matter, are similar to those of Luther, the Church Fathers, the RCC, Wesley, and others. I believe the sacraments are more than just symbols or reminders and I also believe that they cannot be properly performed except by an ordained clergyman.

I know that many of you may disagree with this position...and I certainly can respect that view. But, personally, I cannot take that view on myself.

So in that light, my question for all of you is:

If you HAD to choose a denomination to be a part of, while also maintaining your beliefs in universal reconciliation...Which denomination would you choose and why?

No mainstream Christian denomination is going to teach the Biblical message of salvation for all and most denominations will suffocate authentic spirituality with some degree of carnal Phariseeism and legalism.  However given that you seem bent on finding an organized church home and you have a sacramental view I would recommend the Orthodox church.  I spent some time studying and reading about it the OC and I attended a few Divine Liturgies (their equivalent to mass) and they seem a touch less legalistic than the RCC.  Just my opinion though.

Dear Wayfaring...

Thank you for your time and efforts. I agree that no mainstream modern Christian denomination will support salvation for all. I was trying to find one that would be more tolerant about the idea than others, and therefore, I appreciate your suggestion of the Eastern Orthodox Church. I am considering it carefully. I have some big issues with them, but less than many others I suppose...and many Orthodox in the past have supported UR.

Don't get me wrong, Universal Reconciliation is just one facet of the overall message of Christ.  It's not the end all be all of following Jesus.  However I find that teaching hell and the soul crushing burden of institutional religion go almost hand in hand.  The RCC and to an extent the E.O. churches are fraught with all kinds of extra-Biblical teachings and traditions.  God has slowly dragged me towards this revelation this didn't come to me one day out of the blue it was years of God's pushing me into the position He wants in that got me in my current place in life.

However your path is yours to walk not mine or anyone else.  God is working all things in accordance with His Will and I talk to you until I'm blue in the face but it won't matter because I can't bring you to the truth, the priest, pastor, minister, not even the Pope can bring you to the truth.  There is only One who can lead someone to The Truth.

Also you -- being dead in the trespasses and the sins,

2 in which once ye did walk according to the age of this world, according to the ruler of the authority of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience,

3 among whom also we all did walk once in the desires of our flesh, doing the wishes of the flesh and of the thoughts, and were by nature children of wrath -- as also the others,

4 and God, being rich in kindness, because of His great love with which He loved us,

5 even being dead in the trespasses, did make us to live together with the Christ, (by grace ye are having been saved,)

6 and did raise [us] up together, and did seat [us] together in the heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus,

7 that He might show, in the ages that are coming, the exceeding riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus,

8 for by grace ye are having been saved, through faith, and this not of you -- of God the gift,

9 not of works, that no one may boast;

10 for of Him we are workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to good works, which God did before prepare, that in them we may walk.

Ephesians 2:1-10.

It's important to listen to the Spirit of the Lord and discern where He is calling you.  It's not about where you want to be or where the pope wants you to be or where your parents want you to be, it's about where God wants you to be.  It's much easier to give up and listen to God the first time because He won't stop working on you until He has you positioned where He wants you, trust me it took some time for my eyes to be opened and God's not done with me yet.

Excellent post. I will absolutely take your advice to heart.

[jinc1910]

I'm wondering why some here don't become missionaries to the churches...?

Maybe the Spirit hasn't moved them, yet...

I did.  They told me I needed to be quiet.  They were talking about taking disciplinary action.  :sigh: The Spirit told me to leave.  I decided to stay a little while longer, but He stopped me the next day!  Maybe I'll join another church sometime in the future, if the Spirit leads me there, and become a missionary again. :Chinscratch:

That must be so frustrating. I find it so amazing how hard churches are on those who believe in UR when it is so undeniable, at the very least, that many saints and early church fathers accepted it.

[jbertonbounds]

I'm wondering why some here don't become missionaries to the churches...?

Maybe the Spirit hasn't moved them, yet...

I did.  They told me I needed to be quiet.  They were talking about taking disciplinary action.  :sigh: The Spirit told me to leave.  I decided to stay a little while longer, but He stopped me the next day!  Maybe I'll join another church sometime in the future, if the Spirit leads me there, and become a missionary again. :Chinscratch:

That must be so frustrating. I find it so amazing how hard churches are on those who believe in UR when it is so undeniable, at the very least, that many saints and early church fathers accepted it.

It all has to do with two things: (1) "the self,"  the ego, pride - nobody wants to admit they are wrong, and (2) fear - they are afraid to believe in ET, but they are afraid not to believe in it.  The self and the fear totally distort the gospel so severely from A to Z, that it has become rendered almost useless in the mainstream religions.  Thank God it is not the true gospel that has been rendered ineffective, only man's version.

As for it having been frustrating, being persecuted for speaking out the true gospel, I count it joy to have the privilege of suffering with the Christ.  It is a great honor, indeed.

[jinc1910]

I am glad to hear you feel this way! God bless you and I hope you continue to find peace and happiness.

[shawn]

What state are you from?