Trinity Discussion, split from "Something I Just Read"

[micah7:9]

Can't find the verse or verses Molly? For me all you have offered is interpretation of evidence that there is a Holy Spirit which is the power/glory of God the Father, our Lord Jesus Christ.

Two YHWH in one passage didn't do it for you, Micah?

I guess I can't really help.

When you meet the HS, he will talk to you, just like he talks to Elijah.

Molly, " All I know about any trinity theology is God in three persons, blessed trinity.  It is what I see all over the Bible. That's why I believe it." (Molly)


Where in and through out the Bible do you find any statements [to what you believe] of a "trinity" of three persons, blessed trinity? I personally have searched my Bible and find no evidence of such a set of words. I have also found no verse where the Holy Spirit is called a person. When I read man's teaching on the subjected, it is chock full of such theories and words. Should you find such evidence, please show me where. I mean no offence. If you got "God in three persons, blessed trinity"
from your Bible it should not be a difficult task. 
You have not shown where it is. The Lord has brought me to meet His Holy Spirit and I have been humbled by the gift, His Spirit has spoken to me and I have responded with thanks and praise.  :dsunny::HeartThrob:

You said, "All I know about any trinity theology is God in three persons, blessed trinity.  It is what I see all over the Bible. That's why I believe it." (Molly)
All I'm asking is where?

[Molly]

1) YHWH the Word


And behold, the word of the LORD came to him, and he said to him, "What are you doing here, Elijah?"

And he said, "Go out and stand on the mount before the Lord."


2) YHWH the Holy Spirit


And behold, the LORD passed by, and a great and strong wind tore the mountains and broke in pieces the rocks before the LORD.

And after the fire the sound of a low whisper.  And when Elijah heard it, he wrapped his face in his cloak and went out and stood at the entrance of the cave.  And behold, there came a voice to him and said, "What are you doing here, Elijah?"


1 Kings 19:9-13

[micah7:9]

You evade, why? " All I know about any trinity theology is God in three persons, blessed trinity.  It is what I see all over the Bible." (Molly)

You cannot find what you have stated, " God in three persons, blessed trinity." in the Bible so you continue to give evidence of the power of God, the Holy Spirit, to which I believe fully.
I do not believe you have any evidence of "God in three persons, blessed trinity." in the Bible, so you must have got your belief from outside of the Bible. If you cannot reveal where in Bible you have found your belief, then I cannot except what you say. I do not wish to argue, but you said what you said and have failed to show where, in the Bible, you find, " God in three persons, blessed trinity."  :HeartThrob:

[Molly]

Do you see two YHWH in 1 Kings 19:9-13, yet, Micah?







When you acknowledge there are two in that passage we can move on.

[micah7:9]

Do you see two YHWH in 1 Kings 19:9-13, yet, Micah?

Whether I see two or more makes no difference. The Holy Spirit, God's spirit is very real. You seek to seperate ONE, I do not see ONE seperated, I see ONE. The Creator will use all His attributes and facets, you chose to find those attributes and facets as seperate entities, I see all as One, out from One...I AM.

You have no premise, except your interpretation, unless or until you can substantiate where in the Bible it is stated, as you say, through out the Bible, of what you have stated is found through out the Bible that established your belief, " God in three persons, blessed trinity."
If you cannot produce what you say " God in three persons, blessed trinity." with book and verse and that being found through out the Bible, just say, you believe in the trinity doctrine, because that's what you believe, without Bible evidence. I believe in the Holy Spirit, without doubt.

[Molly]

I don't have to interpret anything, Micah.  Just read it.



YHWH1 and YHWH2 ask Elijah the same question.



YHWH1

9 And behold, the word of the Lord came to him, and he said to him, "What are you doing here, Elijah?"


YHWH2

13 And behold, there came a voice to him and said, "What are you doing here, Elijah?"




Elijah gives both of the them the same answer.


to YHWH1


10 He said, "I have been very jealous for the Lord, the God of hosts. For the people of Israel have forsaken your covenant, thrown down your altars, and killed your prophets with the sword, and I, even I only, am left, and they seek my life, to take it away."


to YHWH2


14 He said, "I have been very jealous for the Lord, the God of hosts. For the people of Israel have forsaken your covenant, thrown down your altars, and killed your prophets with the sword, and I, even I only, am left, and they seek my life, to take it away."


Do you see the two YHWH there yet Micah?


Or if you still think there is just one in that passage, what do you think is going on?  Is our God senile?  He can't remember that he just asked that question and got an answer? Or maybe he likes to toy and play games with his holy prophets?  or What?

[micah7:9]

For someone who has not listened to others in theology you sure have a way of theological speak. You will not, won't or cannot back up YOUR statement that you only used the Bible to get your information about the "trinity" and that being a "blessed trinity" of "three persons in one." You show no evidence, save what you believe.
You provide no proof save verses of scripture that I believe and accept, that God is Spirit and that He works/speaks through His human creation, be they regular men, prophets, or messengers. You prove nothing of your triangled trinity, you provide no evidence but your belief, without one ounce of biblical verse as proof.

[Molly]

I provide you proof.

You refuse to see it.

Do you see the two YHWH in 1Kings 19 yet?

That's a simple yes or no answer.

I asked another question.  Do you have an answer to it?


"Or if you still think there is just one in that passage, what do you think is going on?  Is our God senile?  He can't remember that he just asked that question and got an answer? Or maybe he likes to toy and play games with his holy prophets?  or What?"


PS Elijah calls them both God.

[micah7:9]

This thread has run it's course unless you Molly can show evidence that you got your belief from the 66 books of the Bible we both read. Where is a trinity mention, where is the Holy Spirit announced as a person? From the Bible where does it say God is 3, or 3 persons, outside of your understanding? :HeartThrob:

"I provide you proof.

You refuse to see it.

Do you see the two YHWH in 1Kings 19 yet?

That's a simple yes or no answer.

I asked another question.  Do you have an answer?


"Or if you still think there is just one in that passage, what do you think is going on?  Is our God senile?  He can't remember that he just asked that question and got an answer? Or maybe he likes to toy and play games with his holy prophets?  or What?"
You provide nothing to your discussion whether I see 2 or 7. I believe the Word of God as written in the Bible, but it would seem you must run with what information you received outside of the Book. Until you can show WRITTEN evidence of your theory in the Bible without your supposing I find this done. Show me your trinity, 3 person in 1, blessed trinity verse or verses in the Bible and I will be silenced.

[Molly]

No I will not move on until you read this passage and answer my very specific questions about what is going on without a bunch of vague answers of God is one and two and seven and talking through all kinds of humans, messengers, and donkeys.

I provide you proof time and again and you refuse to see it and you won't even answer a simple question which would allow you to see it if you would only answer the question.

There are two YHWH in this passage and they are two persons. 

We know they are both God because their holy prophet Elijah calls them both God, and Elijah should know, he's their prophet.

We know they are persons because they each have a personality and it's different for each one.

Who are they?  We can't even get there until you acknowledge there are two in this passage, not five, not seven, not men, not messengers, but two YHWH.

Elijah says to each one of them

For the people of Israel have forsaken your covenant, thrown down your altars, and killed your prophets with the sword,


Each one of them is YHWH Elohiym.  Two in this passage.  And, if you refuse to see that, I refuse to move on with more proof that you will  also refuse to see.

I have already offered you plenty of proof in this thread. 

[micah7:9]

 :blah: I'm sorry if this seems trite but you offer zilch in the way of biblical trinity proof. :dsunny:

[Molly]

I'm sure there are some who have ears to hear.

[micah7:9]

Amen to that! :dsunny: :banana:

[Molly]

God in three persons.

Anyone can go meet two of them in 1Kings 19.

[Molly]

If you want to see all three of them in the same room, go to the baptism of Jesus.

[mplsfitter539]

Molly although you have not shown one stitch of evidence for support of the trinity theory I want to compliment you on your integrity. You have done probably your own personal best of defending something that is clearly not in the Word of Yahweh. Congratulations!

[jabcat]

This borders on baiting/flaming.  Let's keep it loving and respectful please.  Thanks.

[mplsfitter539]

Your right I am sorry for saying that.

[jabcat]

 :handshake:

[eaglesway]

Yea really,  we are just here to discuss the topic. No one is going to "prove" anything. I do not begrudge Molly her position- I just disagree with it.


I was walking down the street tonight and I saw the moon. It was nearly full and the details of it were clear in the nite sky. In it I saw the beaten weeping face of my Lord Jesus.

The law reigned until the resurrection of Jesus, but it was crucified in His body- nailed to the cross and made of no effect for all those, who like the serpent lifted up on a stick in the wilderness, looked upon it. Seeing the enmity(serpent) destroyed ended the plague.

Seeing the serpent destroyed ends our plague(death) as well.

The law mourned for the world like an echo of the Voice that walked in sweet fellowship with Adam and Eve in the garden.

Then I thought about how tthw law, a mere reflection of the glory of Christ, was just like the body of Christ on the cross-crucified- so that we could enter in, freely, to the "sun shining in its strength"- the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ- Messiah of the whole world.

We can see light reflecting off the law, a tutor leading us to our hope- that the light can shine from within- something the law can never know, or for that matter, the moon :o).....and neither can we as long as the light we have is like the glory fading from Moses' face as he left the tent of meeting and the presence of God behind him in it.

We on the other hand need no veil to hide the glory that is growing within us, from faith to faith, with ever increasing glory, because Jesus is the One who is growing within us, "I am in the Father and the Father is in Me and I am in you."

"Whoever dwells in the shelter of the Most High will abide in the shadow of the Almighty".

Jesus is the shelter of the Most High.

The Holy Spirit is the shadow of the Almighty.

Praise God for all that have entered into it and fellowship with the Voice in the cool of the morning.

The dawn has broken and the day star is arising in our hearts. Awake O Sleeper and the light of Christ will shine on you.

2 Cor 3 17 Now, the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is there is liberty. And we all who with unveiled faces reflect the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

2 Cor 4:6 "For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness", made His light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of God's glory displayed in the face of Christ."

[jabcat]

 :dsunny:

Anything else really need to be said here?

:Pray:        :bigGrin:

[micah7:9]

 :dsunny:Nope :HeartThrob:

[Molly]

Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus' glory and spoke about him. [NIV]  --John 12:41


In John 12:41, John tells us Isaiah saw Jesus' glory.


The reference is to Isaiah 6 where Isaiah describes what he saw [the second Person of the trinity].


Isaiah calls him both Adonai and YHWH of hosts.
The Apostle John identifies this as Jesus.


In the year that King Uzziah died I saw the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up; and the train of his robe filled the temple. 2 Above him stood the seraphim. Each had six wings: with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. 3 And one called to another and said

"Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of hosts;
the whole earth is full of his glory!"

4 And the foundations of the thresholds shook at the voice of him who called, and the house was filled with smoke. 5 And I said: "Woe is me! For I am lost; for I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts!"  [Isa 6]

[eaglesway]

Yes, this is a good proof text for the Modalists, who read it as "I have seen God the King of Hosts".

As we read in 1 Corinthians 15...... After the Father has subjected all the enemies to Jesus feet, Jesus will return all things to the Father- "the One who subjected all things to Him". The Father says, "Sit at my right hand until I make all yoour enemies a footstool for your feet"

So you see, any honest person, reading Isaiah, an Old Testament prophet could see this in several different ways- I believe there are sevral ways to see it and they overlap(partial truth from each position) but are all incomplete because we may not fully understand this until we see Him face to face.

Surely YHWH is Adoni of Hosts in the Old Testament according to the view of those who see Jesus as existing only as the Logos until His incarnation.

Jesus said, "All authority in heaven and earth is given to me by my Father".

So, just because adoni and YHWH occur in the same sentence does not make it a proof text for the Trinity- because it does not make Jesus co-equal to "God the Father"

In fact, even if one believes in the Trinity- they could hold that Jesus is the eternally existent Son, undr Hos Father- as Tertullian, who originally proposed the doctrine- defined it. It wasnt until Tertullian was long dead and buried that the RCC in its formative stages under Anathasius and Constantine, approved the Trinity as co-equal, co-eternal and co-substantial.

Constantine had long been double minded about the Trintiy, having at one time banished Anathasius in favor of Arius

[Molly]

Jesus is identified here as YHWH of hosts of the Old Testament.

That's God enough for me.



Psalm 24:10
Who is this King of glory? The LORD of hosts, he is the King of glory. Selah.