Trinity Discussion, split from "Something I Just Read"

[leli]

So is Jesus the Son of the Fathe or the Son of the"holy Spirit?  Did we forget Clossians the first chapter?  Do trees have hands to clap --- forgetting the personification factor?

I firmly believe that God is Spirit, the Holy Spirit that emanates throughout the Universe and through which He works.  Yeshua was the Image to manifest the Father, the holy Spiriit, and came to this world to make Him known.

[leli]

Paul is guilty of forgetting the "third person" in his salutaions

[micah7:9]

 :dsunny:

[Molly]

"The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with all of you". -- 2 Corinthians 13:14


"communion"

G2842
κοινωνία
koinōnia
koy-nohn-ee'-ah
From G2844; partnership, that is, (literally) participation, or (social) intercourse, or (pecuniary) benefaction: - (to) communicate (-ation), communion, (contri-), distribution, fellowship.

[eaglesway]

IMO, the bible is clear that the "Father is spirit and those that worship Him must do so in spirit and in truth."
So the Father of us all is spirit. Is there any question that he is also Holy?
Logic would tell us that the Father IS Holy Spirit. Since being God, He is also omnipresent, it is just a literary
device for the Bible to say, God sent His Spirit to do such and such.
Besides, it is also clear Mary was pregnant by the Holy Spirit. The result was the SON. Every Son has a Father and since Jesus refers to God as his Father and the Holy spirit is his Fther and I previously showed the Father is Holy and a Spirit... :Peace2: :2c:

Seems quite reasonable to me, with that said, I just might retire  :o)

[micah7:9]

2Co 13:14  the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, is with you all! Amen.
Yes, Amen I thank the Lord for that fellowship, all of us are grateful. :dsunny: :HeartThrob:

[micah7:9]

IMO, the bible is clear that the "Father is spirit and those that worship Him must do so in spirit and in truth."
So the Father of us all is spirit. Is there any question that he is also Holy?
Logic would tell us that the Father IS Holy Spirit. Since being God, He is also omnipresent, it is just a literary
device for the Bible to say, God sent His Spirit to do such and such.
Besides, it is also clear Mary was pregnant by the Holy Spirit. The result was the SON. Every Son has a Father and since Jesus refers to God as his Father and the Holy spirit is his Fther and I previously showed the Father is Holy and a Spirit... :Peace2: :2c:

Seems quite reasonable to me, with that said, I just might retire  :o)

Huh?

[mplsfitter539]

I've enjoyed a lot of what's been posted, from various posters. 

calling me a pagan and hostage to doctrines of men since this thread began.

Along with that, I saw a comment earlier from a member about "wanting to debate this".  Reminder - this is not a debate forum.  It's a discussion forum - where we maintain none of us have every single aspect of the truth cornered, and we share as we understand to the best of our ability. 

Sorry for this slip of the keyboard, what I meant to say was that I have always wanted to discuss this topic. I really wasn't looking for an argument, in fact I was sort of hoping we were all in agreement. The trinity theory, x-mas, easter, and all of the other pagan traditions of men were all things I believed before UR. Now since UR entered my life I no longer believe these fake doctrines. If people would just do a quick history on any one of the false doctrines I just listed you will find they all started at the tower of babel. Maybe some think its ok to mix false doctrines with Truth but I have found that the more devoted I am to digging to the bottom of things the more I am blessed. I don't care how many lies were taught to me, I refuse to go back to the ignorance of following traditions of men.

DuWayne

[micah7:9]

Absolutely a wonderful outlook and a basic search mode. It is amazing how the common theologies of men have been embraced by people who have never bothered to seek what the Bible says and teaches. Taking the word of man/men as to what the Bible offers as one who seeks has, been a stumbling block for many. :HeartThrob: :dsunny:

[Molly]

2Co 13:14  the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, is with you all! Amen.
Yes, Amen I thank the Lord for that fellowship, all of us are grateful. :dsunny: :HeartThrob:

19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,  [Mat 28:19]

The Name= HaShem

[Molly]

HaShem

It is common Jewish practice to restrict the use of the word Adonai to prayer only. In conversation, some Jewish people, even when not speaking Hebrew, will call God HaShem, השם, which is Hebrew for "the Name" (this appears in Leviticus 24:11). Some religious Jews extend this prohibition to some of the other names listed below, and will add additional sounds to alter the pronunciation of a name when using it outside of a liturgical context, such as replacing the "h" or "e" or "d" with a "k" in names of God such as "kel" and "eloki'm" and "shakai".

While other names of God in Judaism are generally restricted to use in a liturgical context, HaShem is used in more casual circumstances. HaShem is used by some Orthodox Jews so as to avoid saying Adonai outside of a ritual context. For example, when some Orthodox Jews make audio recordings of prayer services, they generally substitute HaShem for Adonai; a few others have used Amonai.[13] On some occasions, similar sounds are used for authenticity, as in the movie Ushpizin, where Abonai Elokenu [sic] is used throughout.

--Wikipedia

[Molly]

10 A man whose mother was an Israelite and whose father was an Egyptian came out among the people of Israel; and the Israelite woman's son and a certain Israelite began fighting in the camp.  11 The Israelite woman's son blasphemed the Name in a curse. And they brought him to Moses—

--Lev 24


You probably don't want to know what happened...

But, it explains why Jews are so afraid/careful of using the name of God, to the point where they will just call him, "the Name."

[Molly]

19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name

of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,



--Mat 28




"nations"

G1484
εθνος

ethnos
eth'-nos

Probably from G1486; a race (as of the same habit), that is, a tribe; specifically a foreign (non-Jewish) one (usually by implication pagan): - Gentile, heathen, nation, people.




Instances of Gentiles coming to the Israelites or to Jerusalem because of 'the Name' in the Old Testament.:


1)



6 They went to Joshua in the camp at Gilgal, and said to him and to the Israelites, 'We have come from a far country; so now make a treaty with us.'  7 But the Israelites said to the Hivites, 'Perhaps you live among us; then how can we make a treaty with you?'  8 They said to Joshua, 'We are your servants.' And Joshua said to them, 'Who are you? And where do you come from?'  9 They said to him, 'Your servants have come from a very far country, because of the name of the Lord your God; for we have heard a report of him, of all that he did in Egypt, ...

--Josh 9



2)



When the queen of Sheba heard of the fame of Solomon, (fame due to the name of the Lord), she came to test him with hard questions. 2 She came to Jerusalem with a very great retinue, with camels bearing spices, and very much gold, and precious stones; and when she came to Solomon, she told him all that was on her mind.
--1 Kings 10





3.)

[Prophecy]




Who are these that fly like a cloud,
    and like doves to their windows?


9 For the coastlands shall wait for me,
    the ships of Tarshish first,
to bring your children from far away,
    their silver and gold with them,
for the name of the Lord your God,
    and for the Holy One of Israel,
    because he has glorified you.


--Isaiah 60





4)



[Prophecy]



16 And it shall come to pass, when ye be multiplied and increased in the land, in those days, saith the Lord, they shall say no more, The ark of the covenant of the Lord: neither shall it come to mind: neither shall they remember it; neither shall they visit it; neither shall that be done any more.

17 At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the Lord; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the Lord, to Jerusalem: neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart.

--Jer 3




Sorry.  I just love this stuff--woof!

[eaglesway]

The name is Jesus. or Yeshua if you prefer Hebrew. Father is not a name, Son is not a name, Holy Spirit is not a name. Peter understood this, on the day of Pentecost as the Sanhedrin cried out in response to his sermon....."Men and brethren what must we do?!" To which Peter replied, "Repent and let everyone of you be baptized in the name of Yeshua, the Anointed One, unto the remission of your sinss..."

Also Peter, in Acts 4:12 declared, "For there is ONE NAME given under heaven by which all men must be delivered"

Paul understood this and declared, "For this reason God(the Father) highly exalted Him and gave Him the name ABOVE EVERY NAME that at the name of Yeshua every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Yeshua is Lord(kurios) tot he glory of God the Father"

Salvation is declared in His Name, all things are being  gathering into one in Christ Jesus. 

Matthew 28:19 is a singular verse that Trinitarians parrot in the face of a dozen other verses that make it clear that the apostles understood the Name through which salvation is given is Yeshua- not, "Father, Son and Holy Ghost" which were not capitalized in the original manuscripts- the few of them that contained those verses - for all of them did not.

Eusebius, the noted scholar of the 4th century wrote that he had read 18 citations of Matthew 28:19 that read, (as in Mark), "Go ye and make disciples of all nations in My name, teaching them to observe all things, whatsoever I commanded you".

Yet even if Matthew 28:19 is accurate as rendered, IMO the practice and teaching of the apostles makes it clear that the Name in which God has established and is gathering the Kingdom, is Yeshua- not, "Father, Son and Holy Ghost".

[Molly]

The name is Jesus. or Yeshua if you prefer Hebrew. Father is not a name, Son is not a name, Holy Spirit is not a name. Peter understood this, on the day of Pentecost as the Sanhedrin cried out in response to his sermon....."

-------
Paul understood this and declared, "For this reason God(the Father) highly exalted Him and gave Him the name ABOVE EVERY NAME that at the name of Yeshua every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Yeshua is Lord(kurios) tot he glory of God the Father"

A couple of things, eaglesway, because I sort of thought that [That Y'shua was to be above every other name] myself but look at this--



First the verse:

Because of this, God has also greatly exalted him and he has given him The Name which is greater than all names,  Phil 2:9 [Aramaic Bible in Plain English]




Here's a commentary:


We must read, with the best manuscripts, the Name. This seems to mean, not the name Jesus, which was given him at his circumcision, in accordance with the angel's message; but the name Lord or Jehovah (comp. Ver. 11), which was indeed his before his incarnation, but was given

(comp. Matthew 28:18, "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth") to Jesus Christ, the incarnate Son, God and Man in one Person. Or more probably, perhaps, the word "Name" is used here, as so often in the Hebrew Scriptures, for the majesty, glory, dignity, of the Godhead. Compare the oft-repeated words of the psalmist, "Praise the Name of the Lord."



Baptizing someone in the name means very little in English and especially to Gentiles.


But, to the Jews at the time it would have a huge meaning for the reasons I cited in the posts above.  The Name is YHWH.  They would not even say it, it was so holy to them.  They would say HaShem instead, which means the Name, or other variations which they agreed on.


So they would read this as being baptized into YHWH the Father, YHWH the Son, and YHWH the Holy Spirit.


Or YHWH Y'shua if it's Jesus.


These were Jewish writers writing to a Jewish audience.


You might ask what does this mean ?  What would it mean to a Jewish audience of the time?


It would mean that a man, 'Y'shua,' has been elevated to the family of YHWH.  He is the first man to achieve this great honor.  And, if he can do it, [he promises us through him] so can we.



That in The Name of Yeshua, every knee shall bow, which is in Heaven and in The Earth and which is under The Earth, [Phil 2:10]





Now look at this:



20 Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations: they have no knowledge that set up the wood of their graven image, and pray unto a god that cannot save.



21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the Lord? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.



22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return,



That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.



24 Surely, shall one say, in the Lord have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.



25 In the Lord shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.



--Isa 45





Who is that talking, Eaglesway?  Isn't that YHWH, our God talking?  Did he change his mind and decide to step aside for Jesus?  Or is that Jesus himself talking?  Or some other explanation?




PS I suggest you lay aside Eusebius, a 4th century outliar with a corrupted manuscript,  for the much earlier and more reliable sources going back to the early second century which show mat 28:19 is correctly quoted in our Bible

[jabcat]

I'm not going to suggest where or "what side" of things this enters in on   :Whistle: , but I do like this part of the Forward to The Christian Bible, and reading the last few posts brought it to mind.  I especially like the last line, "God gave His name to His Son"...   Maybe it helps somewhere in this discussion.  Before I post it though, I'm so glad to see in the discussion the statements about the Name, that there's no other way to the Father, etc...excellent.

"Jesus vs. Yesu: Since the name of our Savior is the name by which we will be saved...When His first students called to Him, such as in Mark 10:47, they used the vocative case and said, "Yesu." So it seems most proper for us to transliterate this name as "Yesu," which is
both the vocative spelling and the root of all three spellings. In the Old Contract Writings ("Old Testament") God's name in Hebrew was spelled with four letters (Yodh-He-Waw-He). When using
our alphabet, it is usually transliterated as "YHWH," ..the literal pronunciation of this word is "ee-eh-oo-eh" and is best spelled as "Yehweh."

With the coming of His Son to the earth, God revealed that He is our Savior by means of His Son. Also, by this time Jews had refused to ever say God's name ("Yehweh") out of fear that they might say His name in vain. So God modified His name to "Yesu" which in Hebrew means "Yehweh-Savior," and also gave this name to His Son (see John 17:11-12)."  Blessings.

[micah7:9]

Molly, in all your study(which is very impressive) have you found the answer to my question?
« Reply #474 on: Today at 12:00:49 AM »
QuoteModifyRemove
Quote from: eaglesway
More and more I wonder if you have studied the systematic theology of the Orthodox Trinitarian doctrine and are really familiar with what you believe.

"No, of course I haven't.  I don't let men tell me what to believe.  Otherwise, I'd probably be an atheist because I am surrounded by them.  All I know about any trinity theology is God in three persons, blessed trinity.  It is what I see all over the Bible.  That's why I believe it." (Molly)

"All I know about any trinity theology is God in three persons, blessed trinity.  It is what I see all over the Bible.  That's why I believe it."

Where in and through out the Bible do you find any statements [to what you believe] of a "trinity" of three persons, blessed trinity? I personally have searched my Bible and find no evidence of such a set of words. I have also found no verse where the Holy Spirit is called a person. When I read man's teaching on the subjected, it is chock full of such theories and words. Should you find such evidence, please show me where. I mean no offence. If you got "God in three persons, blessed trinity"
from your Bible it should not be a difficult task. 

[Molly]

"Is he – quite safe? I shall feel rather nervous about meeting a lion." "Safe?" said Mr. Beaver. "Who said anything about safe? 'Course he isn't safe! But he's good. He's the king, I tell you." - C.S. Lewis, from The Chronicles of Narnia

"The highest good, than which there is no higher, is God, and consequently He is unchangeable good, hence truly eternal and truly immortal. All other good things are only from Him." – Augustine of Hippo

"Lord of hosts! When I swim in the merciful waters of your grace I find that I can neither plumb nor measure the depths." - Menno Simons

"The very fact that a holy, eternal, all-knowing, all-powerful, merciful, fair, and just God loves you and me is nothing short of astonishing." - Francis Chan

"When we preach the love of God there is a danger of forgetting that the Bible reveals not first the love of God but the intense, blazing holiness of God, with His love at the center of that holiness." – Oswald Chambers

[eaglesway]

The name is Jesus. or Yeshua if you prefer Hebrew. Father is not a name, Son is not a name, Holy Spirit is not a name. Peter understood this, on the day of Pentecost as the Sanhedrin cried out in response to his sermon....."

-------
Paul understood this and declared, "For this reason God(the Father) highly exalted Him and gave Him the name ABOVE EVERY NAME that at the name of Yeshua every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Yeshua is Lord(kurios) tot he glory of God the Father"

A couple of things, eaglesway, because I sort of thought that [That Y'shua was to be above every other name] myself but look at this--



First the verse:

Because of this, God has also greatly exalted him and he has given him The Name which is greater than all names,  Phil 2:9 [Aramaic Bible in Plain English]




Here's a commentary:


We must read, with the best manuscripts, the Name. This seems to mean, not the name Jesus, which was given him at his circumcision, in accordance with the angel's message; but the name Lord or Jehovah (comp. Ver. 11), which was indeed his before his incarnation, but was given

(comp. Matthew 28:18, "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth") to Jesus Christ, the incarnate Son, God and Man in one Person. Or more probably, perhaps, the word "Name" is used here, as so often in the Hebrew Scriptures, for the majesty, glory, dignity, of the Godhead. Compare the oft-repeated words of the psalmist, "Praise the Name of the Lord."



Baptizing someone in the name means very little in English and especially to Gentiles.


But, to the Jews at the time it would have a huge meaning for the reasons I cited in the posts above.  The Name is YHWH.  They would not even say it, it was so holy to them.  They would say HaShem instead, which means the Name, or other variations which they agreed on.


So they would read this as being baptized into YHWH the Father, YHWH the Son, and YHWH the Holy Spirit.


Or YHWH Y'shua if it's Jesus.


These were Jewish writers writing to a Jewish audience.


You might ask what does this mean ?  What would it mean to a Jewish audience of the time?


It would mean that a man, 'Y'shua,' has been elevated to the family of YHWH.  He is the first man to achieve this great honor.  And, if he can do it, [he promises us through him] so can we.



That in The Name of Yeshua, every knee shall bow, which is in Heaven and in The Earth and which is under The Earth, [Phil 2:10]





Now look at this:



20 Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations: they have no knowledge that set up the wood of their graven image, and pray unto a god that cannot save.



21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the Lord? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.



22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return,



That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.



24 Surely, shall one say, in the Lord have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.



25 In the Lord shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.



--Isa 45





Who is that talking, Eaglesway?  Isn't that YHWH, our God talking?  Did he change his mind and decide to step aside for Jesus?  Or is that Jesus himself talking?  Or some other explanation?




PS I suggest you lay aside Eusebius, a 4th century outliar with a corrupted manuscript,  for the much earlier and more reliable sources going back to the early second century which show mat 28:19 is correctly quoted in our Bible

the commentaries of men dont impress me much(Eusebius, however was no outliar, but was a world renowned scholar anfd theologian in his time, and was speaking of citations from 18 different writings of the church fathers).  Thats why I noted that even if you verify Matt 28:19, the practice of the apostles makes the point well enough for anyone willing to consider it. Trinitarians write Trinitarian commentaries. Modalists write Modalist commentaries. The apostles proclaimed the kingdom, and baptized in the name of Jesus(Yeshua)- not Father, Son, Holy Spirit.  Baptism surely meant something to Jews and Gentiles alike, as it was their mutual; introduction into the ONE NEW MAN in Christ.

[eaglesway]

"Is he – quite safe? I shall feel rather nervous about meeting a lion." "Safe?" said Mr. Beaver. "Who said anything about safe? 'Course he isn't safe! But he's good. He's the king, I tell you." - C.S. Lewis, from The Chronicles of Narnia

"The highest good, than which there is no higher, is God, and consequently He is unchangeable good, hence truly eternal and truly immortal. All other good things are only from Him." – Augustine of Hippo

"Lord of hosts! When I swim in the merciful waters of your grace I find that I can neither plumb nor measure the depths." - Menno Simons

"The very fact that a holy, eternal, all-knowing, all-powerful, merciful, fair, and just God loves you and me is nothing short of astonishing." - Francis Chan

"When we preach the love of God there is a danger of forgetting that the Bible reveals not first the love of God but the intense, blazing holiness of God, with His love at the center of that holiness." – Oswald Chambers

I love Oswald Chambers....but the idea that God reveals His holiness ahead of His love is a personal opinion- since the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world, and Jesus, who said, "If I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me" declared from His cross, which is the core of ALL REVELATION (Iam determined to know nothing among you but Christ and Him crucified)- "Forgive them Father, they know not what they do".

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son so that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but recieve eternal life.

[Molly]

1 Kings 19:9-13

There he came to a cave and lodged in it.  And behold, the word of the LORD came to him, and he said to him, "What are you doing here, Elijah?"  He said, "I have been very jealous for the LORD, the God of hosts.  For the people of Israel have forsaken your covenant, thrown down your altars, and killed your prophets with the sword, and I, even I only, am left, and they seek my life, to take it away." And he said, "Go out and stand on the mount before the Lord."  And behold, the LORD passed by, and a great and strong wind tore the mountains and broke in pieces the rocks before the LORD, but the LORD was not in the wind.  And after the wind an earthquake, but the LORD was not in the earthquake.  And after the earthquake a fire, but the LORD was not in the fire.  And after the fire the sound of a low whisper.  And when Elijah heard it, he wrapped his face in his cloak and went out and stood at the entrance of the cave.  And behold, there came a voice to him and said, "What are you doing here, Elijah?"



There are two YHWH in this passage

YHWH the Word, LORD the God of hosts

and

The sound of a low whisper
A VOICE

Meet YHWH RUACH, the Holy Spirit

[micah7:9]

Can't find the verse or verses Molly? For me all you have offered is interpretation of evidence that there is a Holy Spirit which is the power/glory of God the Father, our Lord Jesus Christ.

[dajomaco]

Thank you so much for this thread .

When Paul had his road experience he was probably thought he was the
only person on the face of the earth.
He Knew all his buddies would think that he was nuts.
That Paul of a sudden new what scriptures (the old testament)
were not for the Jew only.

When the Holy Spirit showed me that there is no eternal torment.
I thought how could millions and millions of teachers and scholars be wrong.

I now believe the Holy Spirit has shown me there is no Blessed Trinity.

This of course will alienate me from the few remaining Christian friends
left after my dismissal of the teaching of hell.

I think the false teachings of the Evangelical church's are as entrenched as the false teachings of the Catholic church.

But I thank God that the condition of the world today is a result of False teachings.
Which leaves me with great hope, the foundation of Christ Crucified.
God did not trust that I would get it Right.
   

[Molly]

Can't find the verse or verses Molly? For me all you have offered is interpretation of evidence that there is a Holy Spirit which is the power/glory of God the Father, our Lord Jesus Christ.

Two YHWH in one passage didn't do it for you, Micah?

I guess I can't really help.

When you meet the HS, he will talk to you, just like he talks to Elijah.

[eaglesway]

1 Kings 19:9-13

There he came to a cave and lodged in it.  And behold, the word of the LORD came to him, and he said to him, "What are you doing here, Elijah?"  He said, "I have been very jealous for the LORD, the God of hosts.  For the people of Israel have forsaken your covenant, thrown down your altars, and killed your prophets with the sword, and I, even I only, am left, and they seek my life, to take it away." And he said, "Go out and stand on the mount before the Lord."  And behold, the LORD passed by, and a great and strong wind tore the mountains and broke in pieces the rocks before the LORD, but the LORD was not in the wind.  And after the wind an earthquake, but the LORD was not in the earthquake.  And after the earthquake a fire, but the LORD was not in the fire.  And after the fire the sound of a low whisper.  And when Elijah heard it, he wrapped his face in his cloak and went out and stood at the entrance of the cave.  And behold, there came a voice to him and said, "What are you doing here, Elijah?"



There are two YHWH in this passage

YHWH the Word, LORD the God of hosts

and

The sound of a low whisper
A VOICE

Meet YHWH RUACH, the Holy Spirit

This turning into a grammar discussion LoL