Herbert W. Armstrong

[Eduard]

What do you think of this man's views and church?

I think he did believe some right things, but he also came back to the Old Covenant laws, while the apostle Paul had made it clear that the letter of the Law kills and we are under a New Covenant.

Armstrong also rejected eternal torment, believing that annihilation will be the fate of the most wicked who will never accept God. The problem with that is that it's impossible to keep refusing God, since God will be All in All.

[mplsfitter539]

I spent about 6 months reading all of the material I could about the WWCOG and then I found UR. The things I discovered during my studies are still very valuable to me although I abandoned those studies when I found UR.

The ten commandments are still required to follow but most believe that when the Word says the law kills that they should not obey the commandments of Yahweh. IMO this attitude is wrong. The laws were written on the hearts of the followers of Yahshua. The way I understand it is we are to obey the laws of Yahweh because we love Him instead of obeying the ten commandments out of duty. We are not under the penalty of the law but that should not be interpreted to mean the ten commandments were abolished. Yahshua showed us that if we are to follow Him we must live like Him and He obeyed the law perfectly out of love.

[Eduard]

They're not abolished, they are fulfilled.

[ded2daworld]

I was a follower of HWA for a while back 40 some years ago. Read everything he ever wrote. Coming out of new age where everybody gets saved without Christ into Armstrongism which frankly said if you commit a single sin AFTER you are baptized, then there is no longer any hope for you. The instant I believe that (Which Armstrong plainly wrote) I was in a kind of spiritual limbo. Almost went back to atheism. Finally realized no one has a corner on the truth and anyone can force scripture to make it seem like what they are saying is right. I finally went to sola scriptura and have never looked back. Reading ALL the various translations gave me a firm foundation of what God was saying.

[CHB]

I was a member of the WWCG for 3 1/2 years. A lot of what Herbert W taught was right but it just don't apply to us today. He didn't understand that the laws, promises, commandments, were for Israel and not Gentiles. The Gentiles came in after the fact so to speak. The fact that Gentiles would be saved also had been hidden from the world until it was reveiled to Paul. The law of love should be our way of living today, but if we live by the law of love then all of the other laws will have been met also. There is no physical rules attached to love because it is a spiritual thing from the heart.

I don't regret being a member of that organization because I learned some valuable lessons, one being that Jesus Christ is the mediator between men and God and no ONE man has all the truth but they all have different levels of it.

CHB

[jbertonbounds]

no ONE man has all the truth but they all have different levels of it.

:thumbsup: :iagree:

[marie glen]

"the letter kills"... striving via the flesh, in my own strength, means failure..

"the law" Paul said was tutor (babysitter?) until Grace

and Jesus in His sermon on the mount, seems to me, pointed out how "the law" falls short(!) it's not good enough to merely "not kill" but, Jesus said don't dislike (be angered w/o reason) in your heart, which is to commit murder in ones heart.. and not actually good enough to not commit adultery, but not to lust in the heart/look at one not one's mate in a wrong way..

Grace being the indwelling of God's Holy Spirit (the indwelling of His Presence, the "seal" upon a true believer's heart, which makes the heart cry "abba, Father).

To mix law with this Grace, is to "fall from Grace".. the letter kills.. trying in one's own strength to be good enough, is equal, God says, to "filthy rags".

Whereas His Presence within produces "the fruit of the Spirit".

The fruit of His Presence within produces the "new creation", it's hoped, I would think, that we don't have to think each morning "today I will not murder" or a true follower of Jesus does not easily fall into adultery.

Whereas struggling on one's own to become the new creation, or to merely fulfill The Law, without the indwelling Spirit of God, produces frustration, perhaps even falling away.. Being imperfect, makes it real hard to attain perfection! (I.e. impossible. Can anyone be Perfect without the indwelling of God's Presence?! Any person who thinks they can is surely deceived. Isn't that the whole human experience? the futility of wandering from God..?)

[marie glen]

I was a member of the WWCG for 3 1/2 years. A lot of what Herbert W taught was right but it just don't apply to us today. He didn't understand that the laws, promises, commandments, were for Israel and not Gentiles. The Gentiles came in after the fact so to speak. The fact that Gentiles would be saved also had been hidden from the world until it was reveiled to Paul. The law of love should be our way of living today, but if we live by the law of love then all of the other laws will have been met also. There is no physical rules attached to love because it is a spiritual thing from the heart.

I don't regret being a member of that organization because I learned some valuable lessons, one being that Jesus Christ is the mediator between men and God and no ONE man has all the truth but they all have different levels of it.

CHB

Amen! "love is the law" -- "fulfills the law" for "love works no ill" -- doesn't rob, defraud, assault, cheat, etc, etc.

But even love, isn't an issue of us struggling to love our fellow person, that's not really "love" but the 2nd part of the "new commandment" is fulfilled by us doing the 1st part - which is to Love God. If we love God, we will pursue God, and our striving will be to be, and to remain close to Him. Our loving Him is what will fill us with Him, who is Love. :smile:

[Eduard]

 :thumbsup: :iagree:

[CHB]

I was a member of the WWCG for 3 1/2 years. A lot of what Herbert W taught was right but it just don't apply to us today. He didn't understand that the laws, promises, commandments, were for Israel and not Gentiles. The Gentiles came in after the fact so to speak. The fact that Gentiles would be saved also had been hidden from the world until it was reveiled to Paul. The law of love should be our way of living today, but if we live by the law of love then all of the other laws will have been met also. There is no physical rules attached to love because it is a spiritual thing from the heart.

I don't regret being a member of that organization because I learned some valuable lessons, one being that Jesus Christ is the mediator between men and God and no ONE man has all the truth but they all have different levels of it.

CHB

Amen! "love is the law" -- "fulfills the law" for "love works no ill" -- doesn't rob, defraud, assault, cheat, etc, etc.

But even love, isn't an issue of us struggling to love our fellow person, that's not really "love" but the 2nd part of the "new commandment" is fulfilled by us doing the 1st part - which is to Love God. If we love God, we will pursue God, and our striving will be to be, and to remain close to Him. Our loving Him is what will fill us with Him, who is Love. :smile:

Yes, I agree.

CHB

[rosered]

 :iagree:  also   :HeartThrob:

[Ken]

Hello Eduard,

There are many of us that are former members of the Worldwide Church of God. I was active in the church and was a member for 10 years. Most of us had a combination of good and bad experiences. I view the former church (now called Grace Communion International) as a stepping stone through life's journey. I was even good friends with Joseph Tkach, long before HWA appointed him to take over the church (and long before I had left the church in the late 70's).

The WCG presented itself as the one true and only "Church of God". As most of us eventually found out, it was anything but that. However, they did have some good things about it and they had a few doctrines that were correct.

The greatest benefit to it was the the training of Dr. Ernest L. Martin, who went on to become one of their chief teachers. After voluntarily leaving the WCG, Dr. Martin went on to accomplish many great things in his life, including discovering the correct birth date and time of Jesus' birth (which resulted in a full page write-up in the LA Times), the correct location of the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, many articles on theology and prophecy - and of course was one of the primary advocates of Universal Reconciliation back in the early 70's.

I have an article for WCG members (past and present) here:

http://ernestlmartin.com/index3.htm#elm

Thank you for the question.

Ken

[eaglesway]

Having elements of "truth" is often the case when sects arise on the power of a charismatic speaker who has the courage to buck the status quo. What we all need to watch for, more than "truth" is that when personalities become exalted, and their is no consensus or council standing shoulder to shoulder with so-called "leaders"- things always wind up in the ditch. American Christianity has been riddled with examples of this and they grow all the more common, even a Paul prophesied they would, as we approach the end of the age.

The first foundational truth of the gospel is that we are seeing the divine nature of God through Jesus Christ the Lamb, and being transformed into the same image.

God has no more Moses, no more "Fathers". We who are his disciples are not to lord it over one another in authority structures that emulate the Gentiles, who are darkened in their understanding. We are brothers and sons and we are all able to speak a word in season to anyone- so-called "leader" or "teacher" or whatever. Men who forget that and becoem exalted are doomed to fall into the fire of the Day. "I am He who tries the reins and the hearts." "HAve this attitude which was in Christ Jesus.......and if anyone have any other attitude God will also show it." "Every mans work will be tested by fire fr the day shall reveal it". " he that humbles himself ewill be exalted. He who exalts himself will be abased."

[ded2daworld]

EW :thumbsup: :iagree:

[mplsfitter539]

Ken I am curious when you left off following HWA and began following ELM? It appears as though you are a passionate follower of which ever man you find to agree with you. For a long time I searched for someone to pattern my life after, sort of a human example. Every time I found someone to follow I was disappointed when I found the thing that we did not agree on. I am no longer searching for another human example because I found him in Yashua. The way I figure it why quote another man when the bible is full of true Words that you can quote with confidence in the creator Yahweh. That is what I like about Tentmaker because many of the posts here are scriptures not human interpretations of scripture or worse yet their own opinion. Peace brother   :Peace2:

[lastpost]

The first foundational truth of the gospel is that we are seeing the divine nature of God through Jesus Christ the Lamb, and being transformed into the same image.

Dear eaglesway, thank you for separating out this essence of Divine Truth. So simple and yet so profound.

I work in a small hospital and such a saying would not be out of place above the door of the little "Chapel of the Good Shepherd", as it is called, which I have been going into regularly for a quarter of a century. This chapel is a refuge to me and is always open for staff and patients of any belief or none.

For this particular chapel perhaps it would be more appropriate to say above the door: "We are seeing the divine nature of God through Jesus Christ the Good Shepherd and the Lamb, and being transformed into the same image".

The stained glassed windows were taken out of the old chapel and reused in this newer Chapel of the Good Shepherd. Such beautiful colours: the royal blues, the blood reds, the brilliant yellows and golds of the sun's rays depict various biblical scenes - the main centre window showing Christ on the Cross.

On the left-hand side there is the only space available that can be used by the staff that I work with who must face east according to their requirements. This means that they must pray directly through the centre stained glass window of Christ on the Cross to reach east with their devotions. Of course, a human didn't plan this but I have found it interesting that over the years I have been on my knees in the same place praying to the One God that the Man on the Cross represents.

It is also interesting to note that a newer stained glass window has been added in the chapel and so there are now two beautiful versions in pictorial form of the story of the Good Samaritan!

May I say: "Thank you" to all on Tentmaker for your earnest and generous discussions and your various opinions, some of which stir up such overwhelming sweetness in Christ that the differences of opinion seem, at this time, to play their part.

[CHB]

Having elements of "truth" is often the case when sects arise on the power of a charismatic speaker who has the courage to buck the status quo. What we all need to watch for, more than "truth" is that when personalities become exalted, and their is no consensus or council standing shoulder to shoulder with so-called "leaders"- things always wind up in the ditch. American Christianity has been riddled with examples of this and they grow all the more common, even a Paul prophesied they would, as we approach the end of the age.

The first foundational truth of the gospel is that we are seeing the divine nature of God through Jesus Christ the Lamb, and being transformed into the same image.

God has no more Moses, no more "Fathers". We who are his disciples are not to lord it over one another in authority structures that emulate the Gentiles, who are darkened in their understanding. We are brothers and sons and we are all able to speak a word in season to anyone- so-called "leader" or "teacher" or whatever. Men who forget that and becoem exalted are doomed to fall into the fire of the Day. "I am He who tries the reins and the hearts." "HAve this attitude which was in Christ Jesus.......and if anyone have any other attitude God will also show it." "Every mans work will be tested by fire fr the day shall reveal it". " he that humbles himself ewill be exalted. He who exalts himself will be abased."

So true!! The preachers of the Churches get the attitude that they are right above everyone else and shouldn't be questioned about their belief.  When I stopped looking to one man for the answers to my questions, that is when God started opening my mind to new truths. Not saying that I know it all but God has shown me things I thought that were beyond my understanding.

CHB

[rosered]

Having elements of "truth" is often the case when sects arise on the power of a charismatic speaker who has the courage to buck the status quo. What we all need to watch for, more than "truth" is that when personalities become exalted, and their is no consensus or council standing shoulder to shoulder with so-called "leaders"- things always wind up in the ditch. American Christianity has been riddled with examples of this and they grow all the more common, even a Paul prophesied they would, as we approach the end of the age.

The first foundational truth of the gospel is that we are seeing the divine nature of God through Jesus Christ the Lamb, and being transformed into the same image.

God has no more Moses, no more "Fathers". We who are his disciples are not to lord it over one another in authority structures that emulate the Gentiles, who are darkened in their understanding. We are brothers and sons and we are all able to speak a word in season to anyone- so-called "leader" or "teacher" or whatever. Men who forget that and becoem exalted are doomed to fall into the fire of the Day. "I am He who tries the reins and the hearts." "HAve this attitude which was in Christ Jesus.......and if anyone have any other attitude God will also show it." "Every mans work will be tested by fire fr the day shall reveal it". " he that humbles himself ewill be exalted. He who exalts himself will be abased."

Amen John ! Well said !

  your post made me think of  the image in Daniel 2   and How the   Rock [Jesus Christ is His name ]  not made with hands but by Gods Spirit and truth    that was cut out of the mountain  and will stike that image [man  in his own truth/gold  and righteousness/silver  and judgment/bronze  and strength/iron    and clay/ FLESH !]  and destroy it and His Mountain [kingdom ] will Fill the whole earth  :girlheart::

[Ken]

Hello mplsfitter539,

I left the WCG in the late 70's and became friends with Dr. Martin at that time. I had been reading his material for some time before that.

To give you the quick answer to your excellent questions, I believe in following the Bible. I do not believe in experiences, dreams or visions (unless they can be validated by scripture) - or the words of any man. Dr. Martin always said, "Don't follow me, follow the word of God". His life's work was based on that principle.

Yes, when you follow someone you will be disappointed in them at some point. That is because we are all human - and not perfect. But God always calls the lowest of us to perform His work. And, as Dr. Martin would say, "The proof of whether anything someone says is true and of God is if it can be found in the Bible."

I have found over the years that on any given subject (biblical or non-biblical), when someone says, "I don't believe that" or "I would never listen to that man", they always have one thing in common. They never sat down and truly listened (or read) what that person actually had to say.

I (and others like me) believe in growing in grace and knowledge. God has historically provided teachers for those who are willing to listen. No one person knows everything, but many have gifts in certain areas.

I encourage everyone to do a minimum amount of research to see if there is indeed a teaching that is worthy of consideration - and that may be of God.

Thanks for the question.

Ken

Ken I am curious when you left off following HWA and began following ELM? It appears as though you are a passionate follower of which ever man you find to agree with you. For a long time I searched for someone to pattern my life after, sort of a human example. Every time I found someone to follow I was disappointed when I found the thing that we did not agree on. I am no longer searching for another human example because I found him in Yashua. The way I figure it why quote another man when the bible is full of true Words that you can quote with confidence in the creator Yahweh. That is what I like about Tentmaker because many of the posts here are scriptures not human interpretations of scripture or worse yet their own opinion. Peace brother   :Peace2:

[mplsfitter539]

Hello mplsfitter539,

I left the WCG in the late 70's and became friends with Dr. Martin at that time. I had been reading his material for some time before that.

To give you the quick answer to your excellent questions, I believe in following the Bible. I do not believe in experiences, dreams or visions (unless they can be validated by scripture) - or the words of any man. Dr. Martin always said, "Don't follow me, follow the word of God". His life's work was based on that principle.

Yes, when you follow someone you will be disappointed in them at some point. That is because we are all human - and not perfect. But God always calls the lowest of us to perform His work. And, as Dr. Martin would say, "The proof of whether anything someone says is true and of God is if it can be found in the Bible."

I have found over the years that on any given subject (biblical or non-biblical), when someone says, "I don't believe that" or "I would never listen to that man", they always have one thing in common. They never sat down and truly listened (or read) what that person actually had to say.

I (and others like me) believe in growing in grace and knowledge. God has historically provided teachers for those who are willing to listen. No one person knows everything, but many have gifts in certain areas.

I encourage everyone to do a minimum amount of research to see if there is indeed a teaching that is worthy of consideration - and that may be of God.

Thanks for the question.

Ken

Ken I am curious when you left off following HWA and began following ELM? It appears as though you are a passionate follower of which ever man you find to agree with you. For a long time I searched for someone to pattern my life after, sort of a human example. Every time I found someone to follow I was disappointed when I found the thing that we did not agree on. I am no longer searching for another human example because I found him in Yashua. The way I figure it why quote another man when the bible is full of true Words that you can quote with confidence in the creator Yahweh. That is what I like about Tentmaker because many of the posts here are scriptures not human interpretations of scripture or worse yet their own opinion. Peace brother   :Peace2:

I highlighted in your post exactly what I am saying about quoting men instead of quoting the Word of Yahweh.