Trinity Discussion, split from "Something I Just Read"

[Molly]

The Mouth of God





When Jesus is in the wilderness, he tells Satan,


Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.


--Mat 4:4



Does God have a mouth?




Jesus has been led into the wilderness by the Holy Spirit,  who will be his constant companion during his ministry.



Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.  Mat 4:1



Together they will defeat Satan in the wilderness by quoting scripture.


Jesus himself is the Word contained in scripture,  and the Holy Spirit is the finger of God who wrote the ten commandments on stone for Moses and will write them on our new hearts of flesh.


But what is the mouth of God?





1All the commandments which I command you this day shall you observe to do, that you may live, and multiply, and go in and possess the land which the LORD swore to your fathers. 2And you shall remember all the way which the LORD your God led you these forty years in the wilderness, to humble you, and to prove you, to know what was in your heart, whether you would keep his commandments, or no. 3And he humbled you, and suffered you to hunger, and fed you with manna, which you knew not, neither did your fathers know; that he might make you know that man does not live by bread only, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of the LORD does man live.   Deut 8:3





Moses is speaking these words to the Israelites.  Is Moses the mouth of God?





"These are the commands, decrees, and regulations that the Lord your God commanded me to teach you.

--Deut 6





Moses is standing in the gap between God and the Israelites, receiving the words from God and speaking them to the twelve tribes.



We see here in Deut 8:3, Moses reminds the Israelites that they were led through the wilderness by the LORD God,[ in the same way Jesus was led into the wilderness by the Holy Spirit.]  It was the Holy Spirit leading them but all three members of the Godhead were with them in the wilderness.  They were fed manna from heaven by Jesus, who, as the Word, is himself the bread from heaven.



Jesus replied, "I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never be hungry again. Whoever believes in me will never be thirsty.  John 6:35





Moses, acting as priest, is hearing the words of God and speaking them to the Israelites.  In this regard, I think we could call Moses 'the mouth of God' by proxy.  He is acting in that capacity on behalf of God and men.



But let's look at that word in the Greek and see if it makes things clearer.  It has some interesting meanings.







"mouth" [of God]

G4750

στόμα

stoma

stom'-a

Probably stregthened from a presumed derivative of the base of G5114; the mouth (as if a gash in the face); by implication language (and its relations); figuratively an opening (in the earth); specifically the front or edge (of a weapon): - edge, face, mouth.



The mouth of God speaks the words of God.

The mouth of God is the language of God, specifically the word of God, the Bible.

The mouth of God is the front edge of a weapon.


A weapon?




For the word of God is alive and powerful. It is sharper than the sharpest two-edged sword, cutting between soul and spirit, between joint and marrow. It exposes our innermost thoughts and desires.  Heb 4:12



It is with this weapon, proceeding out of the Father, spoken by Jesus, and revealed to us by the Holy Spirit that all of God's enemies will be defeated.





11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.



12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.



13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.



14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.



15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.



--Rev 19

[Eduard]

"Mouth" doesn't always mean literal mouth, I think it refers more to God's will.

[Molly]

"Mouth" doesn't always mean literal mouth, I think it refers more to God's will.

That's interesting.  Can you show some scripture for that, Eduard?

Or, could you elaborate?

[micah7:9]

"Mouth" doesn't always mean literal mouth, I think it refers more to God's will.

:dsunny: Amen my friend, Amen!

[eaglesway]

Man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that comes from the mouth of God

In times past God spoke through the prophets and various means but in these last days He has spoken to us through His Son who is the radiance of the Father's glory and the exact representaion of His nature and all things hold together by the word of His power (Hebrews 1)


The word(logos) of God is sharper than any two edged sword to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit

Helmet of salvation, shield of faith.....sword of the spirit-the word of God

By faith we know that the worlds were framed by the word of God (And God said, Let there be light Genesis 1, the light of the world, the light that lighteth everyman who comes into the world)

Out of His mouth proceeds a sharp two  edged sword and on His thigh the words (Logos) of God

[micah7:9]

Let me see if I can say it this way. You have a job to do, something that you want done. So you set out to do it, there is no one else so you go to work and get the job done.You labor and sweat until the job is finished, when it it's done you are proud of the job and people come by and see your work and praise you for it and ask who helped you. Of course your answer is no one I did it all myself it took a lot of sweat and hard work and energy, but just me. Do you suppose that the folks who seen your work and heard your testimony would go around witnessing that that the energy, sweat, and labor you put out was a seperate person or an entity all it's own? I don't believe so, just as the Lord
God when He wants a job done it's His power/energy that gets it done, no seperate person, no entity of it's own. The power/energy comes out from the Lord God. Yes, by God's Spirit/Holy Spirit. :dsunny:

[Molly]

King David knew Jesus and the Holy Spirit:


1 These are the last words of David:


"David, the son of Jesse, speaks—
    David, the man who was raised up so high,
David, the man anointed by the God of Jacob,
    David, the sweet psalmist of Israel.


2 "The Spirit of the Lord speaks through me;

    his words are upon my tongue.

3 The God of Israel spoke.
    The Rock of Israel [Jesus] said to me:

'The one who rules righteously,
    who rules in the fear of God,
4 is like the light of morning at sunrise,
    like a morning without clouds,
like the gleaming of the sun
    on new grass after rain.'
--2 Sam 23





The trinity

1 Peter 1:2   who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father  [ONE], through the sanctifying work of the Spirit [TWO], for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood [THREE]: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.

[anna274]

Molly - Micah

I truly appreciate you both; neither of you seems to be lukewarm (Rev. 3:15-16)

I am sincerely interested in learning why discussing the pros/cons of the "Trinity" is so important to you.

Many thanks to you two, eaglesway and all who have provided many Scripture references--among which were several that have helped me in connecting dots in my own ongoing study of the written word of God (Acts 17:11)

[Molly]

I am sincerely interested in learning why discussing the pros/cons of the "Trinity" is so important to you.

Hi Anna, It is important to me because I am witnessing to my experience with God.  And, because I feel we are coming on hard times and people need to know this when that happens.

And,  both of those must be true because the Spirit will not let me away from this keyboard and keeps feeding me scripture after scripture even though I have lots of better things to do [like go to the beach].  :laughing7:

[rosered]

 
Hi Molly , I dont think   many prefer  the coined  name "trinity " its to churchy
  like rapture   the snatching up  and Hell  being the grave 
coined words seem to trigger    many  whom have  come out of her [Babylon]  and dont want to   be mixing  the wisdom of men and the Wisdom of God 
you have helped in the past few days to show How much  depth there  is
in Gods Word , but as darkness and Light do not mix  , so does the Light of God and the  darkness of mens understanding  do not work  :girlheart:   for me , many names and titles   but all come from and out of ONE GOD the existing ONE and will go back into ONE GOD 

1Ti 2:5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;


Jam 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.


El Shaddai(el shad-di')
All-Sufficient One, Lord God AlmightyUse in the Bible: In the Old Testament El Shaddai occurs 7 times. El Shaddai is first used in Gen 17:1.

Variant spellings: None

TWOT Reference:2333

Strong's Reference: 7706

El Shaddai in the Septuagint: theou saddai...God Shaddai; pantokratôr (for Shaddai)...the Almighty

Meaning and Derivation: El is another name that is translated as "God" and can be used in conjunction with other words to designate various aspects of God's character. Another word much like Shaddai, and from which many believe it derived, is shad meaning "breast" in Hebrew (some other scholars believe that the name is derived from an Akkadian word Šadu, meaning "mountain," suggesting strength and power). This refers to God completely nourishing, satisfying, and supplying His people with all their needs as a mother would her child. Connected with the word for God, El, this denotes a God who freely gives nourishment and blessing, He is our sustainer.

Further references of the name El Shaddai in the Old Testament: Gen 17:1; Gen 28:3; Gen 35:11; Gen 43:14; Gen 48:3
El Elyon(el el-yone')
The Most High GodUse in the Bible: In the Old Testament El Elyon occurs 28 times. It occurs 19 times in Psalms. El Elyon is first used in Gen 14:18.

Variant spellings: None

TWOT Reference: 1624g, 1624h

Strong's Reference: 5945

El Elyon in the Septuagint: ho theos ho hupsistos...the God most high

Meaning and Derivation: El is another name that is translated as "God" and can be used in conjunction with other words to designate various aspects of God's character. Elyon literally means "Most High" and is used both adjectivally and substantivally throughout the Old Testament. It expresses the extreme sovereignty and majesty of God and His highest preeminence. When the two words are combined...El Elyon ...it can be translated as "the most exalted God."(Psa 57:2)

Further references of the name El Elyon in the Old Testament: Gen 14:18; Gen 14:19; Gen 14:20; Gen 14:22; Psa 57:2; Psa 78:35 Adonai(ad-o-noy')
Lord, MasterUse in the Bible: In the Old Testament Adonai occurs 434 times. There are heavy uses of Adonai in Isaiah (e.g., Adonai Jehovah). It occurs 200 times in Ezekiel alone and appears 11 times in Daniel Chapter 9. Adonai is first used in Gen 15:2.

Variant spellings: None

TWOT Reference: 27b

Strong's Reference: 0136

Adonai in the Septuagint: kurios...Lord, Master
Meaning and Derivation: Adonai is the verbal parallel to Yahweh and Jehovah. Adonai is plural; the singular is adon. In reference to God the plural Adonai is used. When the singular adon is used, it usually refers to a human lord. Adon is used 215 times to refer to men. Occasionally in Scripture and predominantly in the Psalms, the singular adon is used to refer to God as well (cf. Exd 34:23). To avoid contravening the commandment "Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain" (Exd 20:7), sometimes Adonai was used as a substitute for Yahweh (YHWH). Adonai can be translated literally as, "my lords' " (both plural and possessive).

Further references of the name Adonai in the Old Testament: Complete list available here.

Yahweh or Jehovah(yah-weh)Lord, JehovahUse in the Bible: In the Old Testament Yahweh occurs 6,519 times. This name is used more than any other name of God. Yahweh is first used in Gen 2:4.

Variant spellings: YHWH, Jehovah

TWOT Reference: 484a

Strong's Reference: 3068

Yahwehin the Septuagint: kurios...Lord, Masterdespotês...Lord, Master, denoting the omnipotence of God (TDNT), despot, absolute ruler

Meaning and Derivation: Yahweh is the promised name of God. This name of God which (by Jewish tradition) is too holy to voice, is actually spelled "YHWH" without vowels. YHWH is referred to as the Tetragrammaton (which simply means "the four letters"). YHWH comes from the Hebrew letters: Yud, Hay, Vav, Hay. While YHWH is first used in Genesis 2, God did not reveal Himself as YHWH until Exodus 3. The modern spelling as "Yahweh" includes vowels to assist in pronunciation. Many pronounce YHWH as "Yahweh" or "Jehovah." We no longer know for certain the exact pronunciation. During the third century A.D., the Jewish people stopped saying this name in fear of contravening the commandment "Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain" (Exd 20:7). As a result of this, Adonai is occasionally a substitute for YHWH. The following compound names which start with "YHWH" have been shown using "Jehovah." This is due to the common usage of "Jehovah" in the English of these compound names in the early English translations of the Bible (e.g., the Geneva Bible, the King James Version, etc.).

Further references of the name Yahweh in the Old Testament: Complete list available here.


Jehovah Nissi(yeh-ho-vaw' nis-see')The Lord My Banner, The Lord My MiracleUse in the Bible: In the Old Testament Jehovah-Nissi occurs only once in Exd 17:15.

Variant spellings: Jehovah Nisi; Jehovahnissi

TWOT Reference: None

Strong's Reference: 3071

Jehovah Nissi in the Septuagint: kurios kataphugê mou...the Lord is my refuge
Meaning and Derivation: Jehovah is translated as "The Existing One" or "Lord." The chief meaning of Jehovah is derived from the Hebrew word Havah meaning "to be" or "to exist." It also suggests "to become" or specifically "to become known"...this denotes a God who reveals Himself unceasingly. Nes (nês), from which Nissi derived, means "banner" in Hebrew. In Exd 17:15, Moses, recognizing that the Lord was Israel's banner under which they defeated the Amalekites, builds an altar named Jehovah-Nissi (the Lord our Banner). Nes is sometimes translated as a pole with an insignia attached. In battle opposing nations would fly their own flag on a pole at each of their respective front lines. This was to give their soldiers a feeling of hope and a focal point. This is what God is to us: a banner of encouragement to give us hope and a focal point.

Further references of the name Jehovah Nissi in the Old Testament: Exd 17:15

Jehovah-Raah(yeh-ho-vaw' raw-aw')
The Lord My Shepherd use in the Bible: In the Old Testament Jehovah-Raah (The Lord my Shepherd) is used in Psalm 23.

Variant spellings: Jehovah Rohi; Jehovah Ro'eh

TWOT Reference: 2185, 2186

Strong's Reference: 7462

Jehovah-Raah in the Septuagint: kurios poimainei me...the Lord shepherds me
Meaning and Derivation: Jehovah is translated as "The Existing One" or "Lord." The chief meaning of Jehovah is derived from the Hebrew word Havah meaning "to be" or "to exist." It also suggests "to become" or specifically "to become known"...this denotes a God who reveals Himself unceasingly. Rô'eh from which Raah derived, means "shepherd" in Hebrew. A shepherd is one who feeds or leads his flock to pasture (Eze 34:11-15). An extend translation of this word, rea', is "friend" or "companion." This indicates the intimacy God desires between Himself and His people. When the two words are combined...Jehovah Raah...it can be translated as "The Lord my Friend."

Further references of the name Jehovah-Raah in the Old Testament: Gen 48:15; Gen 49:24; Psa 23:1; Psa 80:1
Jehovah-Rapha(yeh-ho-vaw' raw-faw')
The Lord That HealsUse in the Bible: In the Old Testament Jehovah-Rapha (The Lord that Heals) is used in Exd 15:26.

Variant spellings: Jehovah-Rophe; Jehovah Rophecha; Jehovah Raphah

TWOT Reference: 2196

Strong's Reference: 7495

Jehovah Rapha in the Septuagint: kurios ho iômenos se...the Lord your healer
Meaning and Derivation: Jehovah is translated as "The Existing One" or "Lord." The chief meaning of Jehovah is derived from the Hebrew word Havah meaning "to be" or "to exist." It also suggests "to become" or specifically "to become known" - this denotes a God who reveals Himself unceasingly. Rapha (râpâ') means "to restore", "to heal" or "to make healthful" in Hebrew. When the two words are combined...Jehovah Rapha...it can be translated as "Jehovah Who Heals." (cf. Jer 30:17; Jer 3:22; Isa 30:26; Isa 61:1; Psa 103:3). Jehovah is the Great Physician who heals the physical and emotional needs of His people.

Further references of the name Jehovah Rapha in the Old Testament: Exd 15:26

Jehovah Shammah(yeh-ho-vaw' shawm'-maw)
The Lord Is ThereUse in the Bible: In the Old Testament Jehovah Shammah occurs only once in Ezekiel 48:35.

Variant spellings: Jehovah Samma

TWOT Reference: None

Strong's Reference: 3074

Jehovah Shammah in the Septuagint: estai to onoma autês...the name thereof
Meaning and Derivation: Jehovah is translated as "The Existing One" or "Lord." The chief meaning of Jehovah is derived from the Hebrew word Havah meaning "to be" or "to exist." It also suggests "to become" or specifically "to become known" - this denotes a God who reveals Himself unceasingly. Shammah is derived from the Hebrew word sham, which can be translated as "there." Jehovah Shammah is a symbolic name for the earthly Jerusalem. The name indicates that God has not abandoned Jerusalem, leaving it in ruins, but that there will be a restoration.

Further references of the name Jehovah Shammah in the Old Testament: Eze 48:35

Return to Top Jehovah Tsidkenu(yeh-ho-vaw' tsid-kay'-noo)
The Lord Our RighteousnessUse in the Bible: In the Old Testament Jehovah Tsidkenu occurs 2 times. Jehovah Tsidkenu is first used in Jer 23:6.

Variant spellings: Jehovah Tzidkaynu; Jehovah Tsidqenuw

TWOT Reference: None

Strong's Reference: 3072

Jehovah Tsidkenu in the Septuagint: kuriou tou theou hêmôn elalêsen pros hêmas...the Lord our God spoke to us

Meaning and Derivation: Jehovah is translated as "The Existing One" or "Lord." The chief meaning of Jehovah is derived from the Hebrew word Havah meaning "to be" or "to exist." It also suggests "to become" or specifically "to become known" - this denotes a God who reveals Himself unceasingly. Tsedek (tseh'-dek), from which Tsidkenu derived, means "to be stiff," "to be straight," or "righteous" in Hebrew. When the two words are combined...Jehovah Tsidkenu...it can be translated as "The Lord Who is our Righteousness."

Further references of the name Jehovah Tsidkenu in the Old Testament: Jer 23:6; Jer 33:16

Jehovah Mekoddishkem(yeh-ho-vaw' M-qadash)
The Lord Who Sanctifies You, The Lord Who Makes HolyUse in the Bible: In the Old Testament Jehovah Mekoddishkem occurs 2 times. Jehovah Mekoddishkem is first used in Exd 31:13.

Variant spellings: Jehovah M'kaddesh

TWOT Reference: 1990

Strong's Reference: 6942

Jehovah Mekoddishkem in the Septuagint: kurios ho hagiazôn humas...the Lord that sanctifies you
Meaning and Derivation: Jehovah is translated as "The Existing One" or "Lord." The chief meaning of Jehovah is derived from the Hebrew word Havah meaning "to be" or "to exist." It also suggests "to become" or specifically "to become known"...this denotes a God who reveals Himself unceasingly. Mekoddishkem derives from the Hebrew word qâdash meaning "sanctify," "holy," or "dedicate." Sanctification is the separation of an object or person to the dedication of the Holy. When the two words are combined...Jehovah Mekoddishkem...it can be translated as "The Lord who sets you apart."

Further references of the name Jehovah Mekoddishkem in the Old Testament: Exd 31:13; Lev 20:8
El Olam(el o-lawm')
The Everlasting God, The God of Eternity, The God of the Universe, The God of Ancient DaysUse in the Bible: El Olam is first used in Gen 21:33.

Variant spellings: None

TWOT Reference: 1631a

Strong's Reference: 5769

El Olamin the Septuagint: [ho] theos [ho] aiônios...the everlasting God
Meaning and Derivation: El is another name that is translated as "God" and can be used in conjunction with other words to designate various aspects of God's character. Olam derives from the root word 'lm (which means "eternity"). Olam literally means "forever," "eternity," or "everlasting". When the two words are combined...El Olam...it can be translated as "The Eternal God."

Further references of the name El Olam in the Old Testament: Gen 21:33; Jer 10:10; Isa 26:4

Elohim(el-o-heem')
God, Judge, CreatorUse in the Bible: : In the Old Testament Elohim occurs over 2000 times. Elohim is first used in Gen 1:1.

Variant spellings: None

TWOT Reference: 93c

Strong's Reference: 0430

Elohim in the Septuagint: theos...the standard Greek word for god, "a transcendent being who exercises extraordinary control in human affairs or is responsible for bestowal of unusual benefits" (BDAG). It specifically refers to the monotheistic God of Israel.

Meaning and Derivation: Elohim is translated as "God." The derivation of the name Elohim is debatable to most scholars. Some believe it derived from 'êl which, in turn, originates from the root word, 'wl (which means "strong"). Others think that Elohim is derived from another two roots: 'lh (which means "god") in conjunction with 'elôah (which means "fear"). And still others presume that both 'êl and Elohim come from 'eloah.

Further references of the name Elohim in the Old Testament: Complete list available here.

Return to Top Qanna(kan-naw')
Jealous, ZealousUse in the Bible: In the Old Testament Qanna occurs 6 times. Qanna is first used in Exd 20:5.

Variant spellings: Kanna

TWOT Reference: 2038b

Strong's Reference: 7067

Qanna in the Septuagint: zêlôtês...jealous

Meaning and Derivation: Qanna is translated as "jealous," "zealous," or "envy." The fundamental meaning relates to a marriage relationship. God is depicted as Israel's husband; He is a jealous God, wanting all our praise for Himself and no one else. (cf. Exd 34:14)

Further references of the name Qanna in the Old Testament: Exd 20:5; Exd 34:14; Deu 4:24; Deu 5:9; Deu 6:15

Return to Top Jehovah Jireh(yeh-ho-vaw' yir-eh')
The Lord Will ProvideUse in the Bible: In the Old Testament Jehovah-Jireh occurs only once in Gen 22:14.

Variant spellings: None

TWOT Reference: None

Strong's Reference: 3070

Jehovah Jireh in the Septuagint: kurios eiden...the Lord has seen

Meaning and Derivation: Jehovah is translated as "The Existing One" or "Lord." The chief meaning of Jehovah is derived from the Hebrew word Havah meaning "to be" or "to exist." It also suggests "to become" or specifically "to become known" - this denotes a God who reveals Himself unceasingly. Jehovah-Jireh is a symbolic name given to Mount Moriah by Abraham to memorialize the intercession of God in the sacrifice of Isaac by providing a substitute for the imminent sacrifice of his son.

Further references of the name Jehovah Jireh in the Old Testament: Gen 22:14

Return to Top Jehovah-Shalom(yeh-ho-vaw' shaw-lome')
The Lord Is PeaceUse in the Bible: In the Old Testament Jehovah-Shalom occurs only once in Jdg 6:24.

Variant spellings: None

TWOT Reference: None

Strong's Reference: 3073

Jehovah-Shalom in the Septuagint: eirênê kuriou...peace of the Lord

Meaning and Derivation: Meaning and Derivation: Jehovah is translated as "The Existing One" or "Lord." The chief meaning of Jehovah is derived from the Hebrew word Havah meaning "to be" or "to exist." It also suggests "to become" or specifically "to become known"...this denotes a God who reveals Himself unceasingly. Shalom is a derivative of shâlêm (which means "be complete" or "sound") Shalom is translated as "peace" or "absence from strife." Jehovah-Shalom is the name of an altar built by Gideon in Ophrah.

Further references of the name Jehovah-Shalom in the Old Testament: Jdg 6:24

Return to Top Jehovah Sabaoth(yeh-ho-vaw' se ba'ôt)
The Lord of Hosts, The Lord of PowersUse in the Bible: Jehovah and Elohim occur with Sabaoth over 285 times. It is most frequently used in Jeremiah and Isaiah. Jehovah Sabaoth is first used in 1Sa 1:3.

Variant spellings: None

TWOT Reference: 1865a, 1865b

Strong's Reference: 6635

Jehovah Sabaoth in the Septuagint: kurios sabaôth...the Lord of hosts (sabaôth: Gr. transliteration of Heb. "hosts")

Meaning and Derivation: Jehovah is translated as "The Existing One" or "Lord." The chief meaning of Jehovah is derived from the Hebrew word Havah meaning "to be" or "to exist." It also suggests "to become" or specifically "to become known" - this denotes a God who reveals Himself unceasingly. Sabaoth (se bâ'ôt) means "armies" or "hosts." Jehovah Sabaoth can be translated as "The Lord of Armies" (1Sa 1:3). This name denotes His universal sovereignty over every army, both spiritual and earthly. The Lord of Hosts is the king of all heaven and earth. (Psa 24:9-10; Psa 84:3; Isa 6:5).

Further references of the name Jehovah Sabaoth in the Old Testament: 1Sa 1:11; 1Sa 17:45; 2Sa 6:18; 2Sa 7:27; 1Ki 19:14; 2Ki 3:14; 1Ch 11:9; Psa 24:10; Psa 48:8; Psa 80:4; Psa 80:19; Psa 84:3; Isa 1:24; Isa 3:15; Isa 5:16; Isa 6:5; Isa 9:19; Isa 10:26; Isa 14:22; Jer 9:15; Jer 48:1; Hsa 12:5; Amo 3:13; Mic 4:4; Nah 3:5; Hag 2:6; Zec 1:3; Mal 1:6; Hab 2:13; Zep 2:9

Spirit and Truth  in simple terms  and use 

as I was posting this I saw Anna  write   :)

[rosered]

  I just wanted also to say I saw some pretty awesome things come out though this thread and discussion

and its appreciated  very much , God bless you all , each and every one of you  :HeartThrob:

[anna274]

Thanks Molly for replying so quickly.  I can see now why it's important for you to share your POV of the Trinity.  It seems to me your experiences with God "as Three Persons" in your life's struggles brought you so much comfort that you want that same comfort, etc., for us as we approach hard times.  I appreciate very much that you do not say that unless we believe in God as Three Persons that we will not be comforted. 

[rosered]

Thanks Molly for replying so quickly.  I can see now why it's important for you to share your POV of the Trinity.  It seems to me your experiences with God "as Three Persons" in your life's struggles brought you so much comfort that you want that same comfort, etc., for us as we approach hard times.  I appreciate very much that you do not say that unless we believe in God as Three Persons that we will not be comforted.

  Anna , your so right and  for me I dont mind hearing anyones faith , I know that NONE !  have all  truth  but God Himself

just beliving on His name is enough , according to scriptures 
God knows I am learning and humbled    by all the Knowledge of Him  By Him   as everyone shares     
Love is the greatest thing and many have shown   Love  and kindness and patience        that counts for alot     :HeartThrob:

[Molly]

Thanks Molly for replying so quickly.  I can see now why it's important for you to share your POV of the Trinity.  It seems to me your experiences with God "as Three Persons" in your life's struggles brought you so much comfort that you want that same comfort, etc., for us as we approach hard times.  I appreciate very much that you do not say that unless we believe in God as Three Persons that we will not be comforted.

No, I would never say that.  The Holy Spirit was working mightily in my life long before I ever knew who he was.  He's come through many trials and tribulations with me.

Many times I just recognized his work on my behalf in retrospect.

Whether you think the Holy Spirit is a person or a force, you can pray the Father to send him to you, or to send more.  But, if one doesn't know what to ask for, how can they ask?

He wants us to live peaceful, or at least,  empowered lives and the Holy Spirit is a large part of that.  He is the power of God that is now available to us because of the cross.

If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?  Luke 11:13

[Molly]

Ok Look at this.  The trinity in Psalm 110.


In Psalm 110, God the Father is talking to God the Son through the whole psalm.  Jesus himself quoted from verse one of this psalm.


So whenever the Father says 'you,'  he means 'you, Jesus.'


God the Father is saying to God the Son that God the Son will sit at his right hand.

We all know that God the Son sits at the right hand of the Father.


Then he says in verse 6 that God the Holy Spirit will stand at the right hand of God the Son [just as He stands at our right hand, too, btw].


Verses 5,6, and 7 are all about the Holy Spirit, the one standing on the right hand of God the Son, and going to war some day in the future against the enemies of God.


I will witness, too, that God the Holy Spirit stands on my right hand to protect me.

If that is not the Holy Spirit in verse 5, who is standing at the Son's right hand?
.





1 The LORD [God the Father] said to my Lord [God the Son],
    "Sit in the place of honor at my right hand
until I humble your enemies,
    making them a footstool under your feet."


2 The LORD  will extend your powerful kingdom from Jerusalem;
    you will rule over your enemies.


3 When you go to war,
    your people will serve you willingly.
You are arrayed in holy garments,
    and your strength will be renewed each day like the morning dew.


4 The LORD  has taken an oath and will not break his vow:
    "You are a priest forever in the order of Melchizedek."




5 The Lord [God the Holy Spirit] stands at your right hand to protect you.
    He will strike down many kings when his anger erupts.
6 He will punish the nations
    and fill their lands with corpses;
    he will shatter heads over the whole earth.
7 But he himself will be refreshed from brooks along the way.
    He will be victorious.

[jbertonbounds]

It occurred to me that there may be some confusion going on here.  Some people who believe in the trinity concept may be thinking that other people who do not believe in it are denying the existence of one or more of the three components of the trinity.  I do not think this is the case.  Recently I saw this situation (not on this forum) where someone who didn't subscribe to the trinity concept was accused of denying the Christ (which was not so).  I don't think anyone on this forum would deny either the Father, the Son, or the Holy Spirit - whether or not they subscribe to the trinity concept.  Just sayin'. :2c:

[micah7:9]

I believe your,"just sayin" is very correct.

One more time....

Try this: There is ONE GOD. Jesus Christ came OUT FROM God and is called the "Son OF God." The Holy Spirit comes OUT FROM God and is called the "spirit OF God." But God has bestowed on Jesus ALL THAT HE IS AND ALL THAT HE HAS, hence Jesus also has this SAME SPIRIT and therefore there is the "spirit OF Christ" which is the SAME spirit OF God. They BOTH possess the SAME SPIRIT. And as they possess the SAME SPIRIT, they are ONE!

God promises believers the obtaining of this same spirit also. Hence WE TOO become ONE WITH CHRIST AND OUR FATHER!   Furthermore, all of God's creatures will one day possess this same spirit and then God will be "All in ALL" (I Cor. 15;28)!!! :HeartThrob:

[eaglesway]

Ok Look at this.  The trinity in Psalm 110.


In Psalm 110, God the Father is talking to God the Son through the whole psalm.  Jesus himself quoted from verse one of this psalm.


So whenever the Father says 'you,'  he means 'you, Jesus.'


God the Father is saying to God the Son that God the Son will sit at his right hand.

We all know that God the Son sits at the right hand of the Father.


Then he says in verse 6 that God the Holy Spirit will stand at the right hand of God the Son [just as He stands at our right hand, too, btw].


Verses 5,6, and 7 are all about the Holy Spirit, the one standing on the right hand of God the Son, and going to war some day in the future against the enemies of God.


I will witness, too, that God the Holy Spirit stands on my right hand to protect me.

If that is not the Holy Spirit in verse 5, who is standing at the Son's right hand?
.





1 The LORD [God the Father] said to my Lord [God the Son],
    "Sit in the place of honor at my right hand
until I humble your enemies,
    making them a footstool under your feet."


2 The LORD  will extend your powerful kingdom from Jerusalem;
    you will rule over your enemies.


3 When you go to war,
    your people will serve you willingly.
You are arrayed in holy garments,
    and your strength will be renewed each day like the morning dew.


4 The LORD  has taken an oath and will not break his vow:
    "You are a priest forever in the order of Melchizedek."




5 The Lord [God the Holy Spirit] stands at your right hand to protect you.
    He will strike down many kings when his anger erupts.
6 He will punish the nations
    and fill their lands with corpses;
    he will shatter heads over the whole earth.
7 But he himself will be refreshed from brooks along the way.
    He will be victorious.

Actually it is   the Lord(YHWH) says to my Lord(Adoni), Sit thou at my right hand. This is a poor proof text fro the Trinity. We kno what YHWH means. Adonai does not mean the same thing, it is a generic term for a ruler used through out the OT to refer to various kings. In this instance the Psalm could very honestly be interpeted to


God Almighty said to my King, Sit ...........

[Molly]

Actually it is   the Lord(YHWH) says to my Lord(Adoni), Sit thou at my right hand. This is a poor proof text fro the Trinity. We kno what YHWH means. Adonai does not mean the same thing, it is a generic term for a ruler used through out the OT to refer to various kings. In this instance the Psalm could very honestly be interpeted to


God Almighty said to my King, Sit ...........

What are you saying?  That it's not about Jesus?  Or that it doesn't prove the divinity of Jesus?  Jesus uses verse one himself to prove the divinity of himself to the Jews because he is David's Lord.  How can the son of David be David's Lord, he asks them.   David calls Jesus 'my Lord' in the Psalm.

We know David calls Jesus 'adon.'

But I have and can prove the divinity of Jesus elsewhere.  I offered this Psalm as proof that the Holy Spirit is standing at the right hand of Jesus, in heaven, as the third member of the trinity.

[Molly]

 I don't want you to forget, dear brothers and sisters, about our ancestors in the wilderness long ago. All of them were guided by a cloud that moved ahead of them, and all of them walked through the sea on dry ground. 2 In the cloud and in the sea, all of them were baptized as followers of Moses. 3 All of them ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all of them drank the same spiritual water. For they drank from the spiritual rock that followed them, and that rock was Christ. 5 Yet God was not pleased with most of them, and their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.

--1 Cor 10





In this passage, Paul clearly identifies the rock in the wilderness with Christ.  He says the rock 'followed' them.





the spiritual rock that followed them





"followed"

G190

ακολουθέω

akoloutheō


ak-ol-oo-theh'-o


From G1 (as a particle of union) and κέλευθος keleuthos (a road); properly to be in the same way with, that is, to accompany (specifically as a disciple): - follow, reach.





Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life... Psa 23



Even though Christ was with them in the wilderness,  they had only yet received the dry baptism of Moses, in the sea [across dry ground] and in the cloud [of witnesses].


The cross had not yet happened, and they had not yet received the baptism of the Holy Spirit, the indwelt Spirit of God,  although I believe the Holy Spirit was with them in the wilderness, in the form of
the pillar of cloud by day and the pillar of fire by night, leading the way and protecting them.

I believe 'the Lord' in ex 13:21 is God the Holy Spirit because leading and protecting is his function.


20 The Israelites left Succoth and camped at Etham on the edge of the wilderness. 21 The Lord went ahead of them. He guided them during the day with a pillar of cloud, and he provided light at night with a pillar of fire. This allowed them to travel by day or by night. 22 And the Lord did not remove the pillar of cloud or pillar of fire from its place in front of the people.
[Ex 13]

[Molly]

Actually it is   the Lord(YHWH) says to my Lord(Adoni), Sit thou at my right hand. This is a poor proof text fro the Trinity. We kno what YHWH means. Adonai does not mean the same thing, it is a generic term for a ruler used through out the OT to refer to various kings. In this instance the Psalm could very honestly be interpeted to


God Almighty said to my King, Sit ...........

What are you saying?  That it's not about Jesus?  Or that it doesn't prove the divinity of Jesus?  Jesus uses verse one himself to prove the divinity of himself to the Jews because he is David's Lord.  How can the son of David be David's Lord, he asks them.   David calls Jesus 'my Lord' in the Psalm.

We know David calls Jesus 'adon.'

But I have and can prove the divinity of Jesus elsewhere.  I offered this Psalm as proof that the Holy Spirit is standing at the right hand of Jesus, in heaven, as the third member of the trinity.

Here's the passage I was referring to.


How Can David's son Be David's Lord?


41 While the Pharisees were still gathered, Jesus asked them,  42 "What do you think about the Messiah? Whose son is he?"

They answered him, "David's."

43 He said to them, "Then how can David, guided by the Spirit, call him Lord? David says,


44 'The Lord said to my Lord,
    "Take the highest position in heaven
        until I put your enemies under your control."'

45 If David calls him Lord, how can he be his son?"

46 No one could answer him, and from that time on no one dared to ask him another question.

[eaglesway]

Ok Look at this.  The trinity in Psalm 110.


In Psalm 110, God the Father is talking to God the Son through the whole psalm.  Jesus himself quoted from verse one of this psalm.


So whenever the Father says 'you,'  he means 'you, Jesus.'


God the Father is saying to God the Son that God the Son will sit at his right hand.

We all know that God the Son sits at the right hand of the Father.


Then he says in verse 6 that God the Holy Spirit will stand at the right hand of God the Son [just as He stands at our right hand, too, btw].


Verses 5,6, and 7 are all about the Holy Spirit, the one standing on the right hand of God the Son, and going to war some day in the future against the enemies of God.


I will witness, too, that God the Holy Spirit stands on my right hand to protect me.

If that is not the Holy Spirit in verse 5, who is standing at the Son's right hand?
.





1 The LORD [God the Father] said to my Lord [God the Son],
    "Sit in the place of honor at my right hand
until I humble your enemies,
    making them a footstool under your feet."


2 The LORD  will extend your powerful kingdom from Jerusalem;
    you will rule over your enemies.


3 When you go to war,
    your people will serve you willingly.
You are arrayed in holy garments,
    and your strength will be renewed each day like the morning dew.


4 The LORD  has taken an oath and will not break his vow:
    "You are a priest forever in the order of Melchizedek."




5 The Lord [God the Holy Spirit] stands at your right hand to protect you.
    He will strike down many kings when his anger erupts.
6 He will punish the nations
    and fill their lands with corpses;
    he will shatter heads over the whole earth.
7 But he himself will be refreshed from brooks along the way.
    He will be victorious.

Actually it is   the Lord(YHWH) says to my Lord(Adoni), Sit thou at my right hand. This is a poor proof text fro the Trinity. We kno what YHWH means. Adonai does not mean the same thing, it is a generic term for a ruler used through out the OT to refer to various kings. In this instance the Psalm could very honestly be interpeted to


God Almighty said to my King, Sit ...........

IMO Pslam 110 speaks of God, and Jesus(imo) ad by reference, the Holy Spirit- but it is no proof text for a "Trinity" co-equal, co-eternal- co-substantial.

All I am saying is you can only read what is says, and then say, "I think it means this".  It does not say anything about the Spirit directly. It only directly speaks of YHWH(the one true invisible God) and Adoni(the one who has seen YHWH and reveled Him from heaven).

Aything else is interpretation, which is fine- but the VERSES do ot say a word about a trinity, nor do they imply co-equality. RATHER, IMO they are a prophecy fulfilled in Eph 1:9-11; Romans 8, 1 Corinthians 15 and Revelation 5:13.

Hebrews 2 for instance, says, He was made a little while lower than the angels. Trintarians tout this as proving Jesus co-equal to the Father, but it does not say that- to me it simply proves the Son as Adoni- Lord of all, made so by the Fathers right hand, the Holy Spirit, containing the expression of the Father and the Son- was LORD in some degree over the angels before His incarnation.

For me,  both Psalm 110 and Hebrews 2 PROVE the Father IS greater than the Son because everythig spoken of in both places is CLEARLY accomplished by the Father- which is confirmed among other places here........

1Co 15:22-28  For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.  But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,  then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.  For He(JESUS/ADONI) must reign until He(YHWH/FATHER) has put all His(Jesus') enemies under His(Jesus') feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death. For HE(YHWH) HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS(ADONI) FEET. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident(clear/obvious) that He(YHWH/FATHER) is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him(JESUS/ADONI).  When all things are subjected to Him(JESUS), then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One(YHWH) who subjected all things to Him(JESUS), so that God may be all in all.

Now, I am not saying anyone else must read it as I do. I am simply saying that this is no affront to God or the Lord Jesus or to the Holy SPirit. It also needs no assumptions or trumped up terminology. The terminology itself CONTAINS NO HOLINESS. It is man's. Only the WORD OF GOD is holy and true and when we disagree about what it means we can only draw authority from WHAT IT ACTUALLY SAYS- not our re-interpretaions and made up terms that represent OUR IDEA OF WHAT IT SAYS.

That, IMO, is all the word "Trinity" is- a made up word of man that describes a particular interpretation of facts evidenced in the scriptures. The facts may be honestly, perhaps even correctly- interpreted another way and still permit a spirit of fellowship and accord when in discussion.

IMO, It is when our "religion" gets challenged that we get indignant and "up in arms" :o). That people get so up in arms when you talk about push button terms like Trinity, Hell, Heaven, Free Will, Predestination, Rapture etc..... it is just a clue that a whole lot of religion is involved in the discussion- frequently on all sides :o)

[eaglesway]

Actually it is   the Lord(YHWH) says to my Lord(Adoni), Sit thou at my right hand. This is a poor proof text fro the Trinity. We kno what YHWH means. Adonai does not mean the same thing, it is a generic term for a ruler used through out the OT to refer to various kings. In this instance the Psalm could very honestly be interpeted to


God Almighty said to my King, Sit ...........

What are you saying?  That it's not about Jesus?  Or that it doesn't prove the divinity of Jesus?  Jesus uses verse one himself to prove the divinity of himself to the Jews because he is David's Lord.  How can the son of David be David's Lord, he asks them.   David calls Jesus 'my Lord' in the Psalm.

We know David calls Jesus 'adon.'

But I have and can prove the divinity of Jesus elsewhere.  I offered this Psalm as proof that the Holy Spirit is standing at the right hand of Jesus, in heaven, as the third member of the trinity.

Here's the passage I was referring to.


How Can David's son Be David's Lord?


41 While the Pharisees were still gathered, Jesus asked them,  42 "What do you think about the Messiah? Whose son is he?"

They answered him, "David's."

43 He said to them, "Then how can David, guided by the Spirit, call him Lord? David says,


44 'The Lord said to my Lord,
    "Take the highest position in heaven
        until I put your enemies under your control."'

45 If David calls him Lord, how can he be his son?"

46 No one could answer him, and from that time on no one dared to ask him another question.

Also Molly I would not want you to misunderstand. I believe Jesus was pre-existent outside of times dwelling with and within the Father. Just because I do not believe in the "Trinity" does not mean that we disagree on every aspect of the relationship between the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit. I just don't believe Jesus is co-equal to the Father- as I have said before, and I dont know for sure- and don't really care, if Jesus is co-eternal with the Father IMO it isnt really even important to know that as an absolute.

The only reason I am posting is to raise questions because the "absolutes" about this doctrine and the teaching of it as if it was "direct from God's mouth absolute orthodoxy" was the cause of the martyrdom of many saints over a thousand years. God never kills someone for questioning Him about Himself so I have to assume that ONLY MAN was responsible.

Today, even as with UR, anyone who questions this "TRINITY" or worse, presents a REASONABLE ALTERNATIVE VIEW is labeld heretic and excluded.

However, MANY people who have pressed through the scriptures into UR also have pressed through the scriptures into differing views of the Godhead and the relationship between the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Notice for instance, In John 1, it says. "In the beginning was the Word".....this does not say "Before the beginning"- it says, "In the beginning" OK, ALPHA- to me that says APLHA /LOGOS/ SEED /JESUS THE LAMB. It could mean He was eternally existent within God as that, or it could mean He was the first-born of all creation as the seed of all things, the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world- as Peter says, Foreknown from the foundation of the world but manifest in these last times for you.

It does neither PRECLUDE Or PROVE the SON as co-eternal, but it does prove He is pre-existent, allong with the Sons own words, "Father restore unto me to the glory I had with thee before the world was".

Likewise, Pslam 110 neither PRECLUDES OR PROVES that the Son is co-equal to the Father- ad someone who reads, My Father is greater than I", or "All authority in heaven and earth is given to me by my Father" and just believes that means the Father really is greater and it really is the Father in Jesus doing the works has ACCEPTABLE REASON TO DO SO.

After having fellowshipped with Trinitarians and Bi nitarians and Modalists and Untiarians and shades of all the above- I have never understood how they could stand across the ailse from one another ad call each other "heretic" over such a multi-layered and beautifully faceted jewel of a mystery.

For me to put all the years of study and thought down that has led me to the still partially formatted views I have about this would require WAY TO MUCH SPACE, so I have only presnted SOME EVIDENCE FOR ALTERNATIVE VIEWS because I think THERE SHOULD BE alternative views to the Trinity- so that My God and Your God, The ONE TRUE INVISBLE GOD WHO ALOE DWELLS IN UNAPPROACHABLE LIGHT can retain a little of His mystery- rather than have that mystery slain by the flood of religious terms and certaintys and interpeted "orthodoxies".


And IMO if we err a mite or go out on an arc perhaps a little too far.....God is not in the least upset or concerned about it, because He never wanted to be packaged in systematic theology anyways :o)

Questioning the "Trinity" is not necessarily saying Jesus was just some great guy or denying His deity. It just involves some other views of the nature and dynamics of the relationship and I have found merit in all of those views and my own view incorporates aspects of them all.

[Molly]

I know what you mean.   Every New England town has a Unitarian church across the village green from a Trinitarian church with cannons from WW1 in between.


Psalm 110 is a Messianic Psalm which is why Jesus quotes it to the Pharisees.  They were expecting Messiah ben David, who would arrive and do what the Lord in that Psalm is doing--
take over the Nations by force.

Instead, they got Messiah ben Joseph, the suffering servant, and he didn't suit their desires, even though he is predicted in the same Bible.

Psalm 110 will happen at the end of this Age.

But, one thing it shows is a picture of three in heaven.  Someone is standing on the right hand of Jesus, and he is also called Lord.  If that is not the Holy Spirit, who is it?  You don't need to do a lot of interpretation or deep thinking to arrive at a conclusion, imo, who else could it be?

This Psalm does not talk about them being co-equal although they are placed in co-equal positions.

But this does--

Though he was God, he did not think of equality with God as something to cling to.--2 Phil 6


And, elsewhere, as well.  I think the challenge is to hold as much scripture as possible in one's head when coming to
conclusions, because the Bible interprets itself.

That's why I post so much scripture--because I believe if we could just learn it all, we would know the truth.

Or at least be able to prove it.

[Molly]

Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof....


--2 Timothy 3:5



Paul warned us that in the last days we would see godly people who deny the power of God.


What did he mean by that?


What is it exactly that these men are denying?



For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power.   1 cor 4:20




"power"


G1411

δύναμις

dunamis

doo'-nam-is

From G1410; force (literally or figuratively); specifically miraculous power (usually by implication a miracle itself): - ability, abundance, meaning, might (-ily, -y, -y deed), (worker of) miracle (-s), power, strength, violence, mighty (wonderful) work.



Dunamis--it's the word dynamite comes from, a force so powerful that it is explosive.

This, then IMO, is the power we are not to deny.


This [dunamis] power of God IMO, is the work of the Holy Spirit.


But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you. And you will be my witnesses, telling people about me everywhere--in Jerusalem, throughout Judea, in Samaria, and to the ends of the earth."  Acts 1:8



Is this power of God just an impersonal force?  If so, how are we to know when and where to use it?  Is it handed to us freely to use as we will?


How do we know what to do with it?  Are we to be like Luke Skywalker, using 'the force' at our own discretion?   Wouldn't that be like handing a two year old a loaded gun and setting him loose?  Does this power come with a handbook in its use?


What does Jesus say?


But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.

--John 14:26