Trinity Discussion, split from "Something I Just Read"

[micah7:9]

Hi Ken, I'm happy to see we both agree that Jesus Christ is God, the Creator of heaven and earth.  :thumbsup:

Yahshua does share the title of God with his father who is greater. God is only a title not a name. They both have the title of God but that doesn't negate the fact that Yahweh is one God not 3 in 1. Each holds the title of God but Yahshua is subordinate to His Father Yahweh. Yahweh created everything through His Son. Yahshua only does and says what His Father tells Him.

Amen :dsunny:

[Molly]

Hi Ken, I'm happy to see we both agree that Jesus Christ is God, the Creator of heaven and earth.  :thumbsup:

Yahshua does share the title of God with his father who is greater. God is only a title not a name. They both have the title of God but that doesn't negate the fact that Yahweh is one God not 3 in 1. Each holds the title of God but Yahshua is subordinate to His Father Yahweh. Yahweh created everything through His Son. Yahshua only does and says what His Father tells Him.

Because he made himself subordinate.  For you, I might add.



"Let this same attitude and purpose and [humble] mind be in you which was in Christ Jesus: [Let Him be your example in humility:] Who, although being essentially one with God and in the form of God [possessing the fullness of the attributes which make God God], did not think this equality with God was a thing to be eagerly grasped or retained, But stripped Himself [of all privileges and rightful dignity], so as to assume the guise of a servant (slave), in that He became like men and was born a human being. And after He had appeared in human form, He abased and humbled Himself [still further] and carried His obedience to the extreme of death, even the death of the cross!" Phil 2 The Amplified Bible

[lastpost]

"Who, although being essentially one with God and in the form of God [possessing the fullness of the attributes which make God God]"...

Thank you indeed, that's so refreshing.

If I may be permitted to say so, I view God as the Almighty Spirit, Christ as the Soul of that Spirit Who through His own Self became Man on this Earth two thousand years ago.

[eaglesway]

Perhaps....as I read it He said, before Abraham was, I am". He did not say, "I am YHWH"-

well, in that passage, yes, he is saying he is YHWH.   I AM is the memorial name for God.  I AM is YAH.

13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?

14 And God said unto Moses, I Am That I Am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you.

--Ex 3

"Tell the children of Israel, YAH has sent me unto you."



The priests knew he was claiming to be God.  They knew he was claiming to the the YHWH of the Old Testament.  That's why they killed him for blasphemy.   The Rider on the Clouds in the Old Testament is God, he is YHWH.



64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

65 Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy.

66 What think ye? They answered and said, He is guilty of death.

67 Then did they spit in his face, and buffeted him; and others smote him with the palms of their hands,

68 Saying, Prophesy unto us, thou Christ, Who is he that smote thee?

Mat 26




If Jesus isn't God, who cares if he died?

If Jesus is God, then you are stuck with the trinity.  And, you don't want to be there, I guess,  stuck with the trinity, so the next best thing is to say Jesus isn't God.   I can finally see where everyone is going with this.

Ex 3:14 God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM." He said further, "Thus you shall say to the Israelites, 'I AM has sent me to you.'"

the LXX translates I AM WHO I AM as eimi ho eimi

1 Cor 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me.

also eimi(1510) ho(3588) eimi(1510)

Is Paul also claiming to be God?

been busy missed a lot. RHM, I have no problem with that interpretaion. I disagree with teaching it as foundational because Jesus is the "radiance of the Fathers glory and exact representation of His nature" (Heb 1), so for me, He is making a statement about His nature and His pre-existence(or perhaps transcendant existence above and outside of time) . IMO He is YHWH by calling, choosing, creation, the only begotten god, but not YHWH the Father God Almighty, whom He called "My God and your God" in Revelation. Understand- I am NOT teaching that as foundational, it is my view. IMO to teach that Jesus made Himself YHWH when He said, "Before Abraham was I AM, is an over-extension, and contradicts 1 Corinthians 15 and Colossians one and two where we see the Father MADE Jesus a lot of things, because He was the Son. YHWH cannot be made the fulness of God by Himself, at least to me, that makes the word of God trite and silly and untrustworthy. He either was, intrinsically YHWH, or, as Jesus said, "All authority in heaven and earth is given Me by My Father", as Paul says, "For so it pleased the Father TO MAKE all the fulness dwell in Him". Sometimes we teach things as with authority when they ought to be taught as interpretations- and this is my interpretation of these verses and it is a reasonable and worthy perspective. We cannot just jettison such verses because they disagree with our interpretations(not saying you personally are doing that).

So,IMO Jesus is the I AM by virtue of being the being the ONLY BEGOTTEN and by virtue of ANOINTED ONE(Messiah/Christ). With what was He anointed? The fulness of God. By Whom was He anointed? By YHWH, His God and our God, who Jesus called "the One True God".

[eaglesway]

The Trinity was brought to us in 500 bc by the same people who gave us eternal torment in hellfire and the infallibility of the pope and the hierarchal authority of priests. Doesnt that give anyone pause? It does me. That very thing is what began my study of the doctrine of eternal judgment (Heb 6) that led me to UR.

At the very least, the "Trinity" is certainly not essential, because it didnt exist in the terminology of the apostles. Most people dont realize that if you don't teach a fully co-equal, co-eternal- co-substantial Trinity- you r not teaching the Trinity and are a heretic in VIRTUALLY EVERY INSTITUTIONAL Protestant or Catholic CHURCH. If you think the Father is greater than Jesus- YOU CANNOT BE ORDAIED IN ANY OF THOSE CHURCHeS.

Thats enough to convince me something is wrong with it all by itself, but thats just me and the way I look at things. I believe you can see the merit of a thing in its beginnings.

[micah7:9]

 :dsunny: :HeartThrob:

[Molly]

The Jehovah's Witnesses believe Jesus is god with a small 'g'--a lessor god than God the Father.

The Muslims believe Jesus is a great man and a prophet.

Is that what we are?

Is that what we believe?

Or do we believe he is our great God and Savior Jesus Christ Titus 2:13  ?


Which one is it?  Stand up and be counted before the assembly.



But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

--Mat 10:33

[jabcat]

Or do we believe he is our great God and Savior Jesus Christ Titus 2:13  ?


But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

--Mat 10:33

I believe and confess that He is God, the Son of Father God - sharing the same name with His Father, Yahweh - Savior.

[lastpost]

Please may I put it this way:

The first Divine aspect revealed was God the Father, the Ruler, the One Who could be found through attrition.

The second Divine aspect revealed was God the Son, the Saviour, the Redeemer, the Sacrificer, the Divine Lover who could be found through contrition.

The third Divine aspect revealed was the Holy Spirit which even now works powerfully on humankind - have no doubt in that.

In this context, the Saviour Christ was - and is - the Lord God Jehovah of old.

[dajomaco]

I can say that God is outside of time .
He is also inside of time.
He controls time.
But my pea brain cannot describe accurately the absence of time.

I know what one is and I know what three is.
God knows who he is.
He does not care that my pea brain does not   understand that one third with him
could mean one, or that two thirds equal one. Does one equal three ?
The trinity is not a straight forward math .
The very nature of God is not completely understandable by mortals.
To believe in God you must first believe he IS.

To excommunicate someone  who  does not understand that ONE equals THREE.
Is absolutely ridicules .

But as far as God is concerned ONE equals whatever God says it equals.
God was way before time started  .   

[eaglesway]

Please may I put it this way:

The first Divine aspect revealed was God the Father, the Ruler, the One Who could be found through attrition.

The second Divine aspect revealed was God the Son, the Saviour, the Redeemer, the Sacrificer, the Divine Lover who could be found through contrition.

The third Divine aspect revealed was the Holy Spirit which even now works powerfully on humankind - have no doubt in that.

In this context, the Saviour Christ was - and is - the Lord God Jehovah of old.

I think all this commentary and interpretation is fiine. As long as people dont go around teaching the Trinity as essential to membership in the body of Christ, I really dont care how people "explain" the mystery of Deity in earthly terms- we all have our views. I happen to think the Trinity is a Catholic idol. I do believe Jesus is God. The only begotten God, begotten in the heart of His Father before the foundation of the world- but I am not one hundred percent sure of that. Jesus may be co-eternal with the Father, that idea doesnt bother me at all. I am 100 percent sure Jesus is not co-equal to the Fatther because He said so, and so does Paul- but I don't care if anyone sees it like I see it- and I would never be so presumtuos as to tell anyone my view is "the" view- because t is a mystery. I prefer to discuss it by sharing all the scripures on the subject in a contextual, topical study in friendly fashion. When people start getting all religious and holy about the word "Trinity"- which has no basis in the scripture- I just dont care. Its religious reflexes at work.

Explain how you belive in the Trinity to me without using the word Trintiy as if it justifies itself and stands alone somehow and I will be just as happy as a clam in the mud :o)

[lastpost]

We judge with human rationality and experience. We have no ability to assess Divinity which is beyond that rationality and experience. GOD is GOD - a small sacred word that describes a sacred Something so big that there will always be a part unknown even as knowledge of Divinity increases throughout the ages.

When man left Perfection then God went with him in the form of His Christ.
Perfection must of Himself remain Perfection, yet God's Christ does enter imperfection as His Anointed Agent.
And when again He made Himself lower than the angels as the Son of Man, this was but another form taken upon Himself by His Christ and through His Christ.
The Christ seeks down in the lowest depths of the valleys for the lost sheep, it is His Nature begotten of Almighty God.

To me this spells Divine Love. This is how I know Him. He has reached my cold and rotten heart through even my miserable and faulty understanding of His ways, and has ignited it with an everlasting flame that dances here and there seeking ever to follow my Saviour where He wills. And He has given me eternity to do this - pray tell, is there anything else that I should desire to do for eternity but the Will of He Who is Love?

What is it to me if He brings this to others who are not of this fold? Indeed, what is it to anyone? Should man tell God how to give lavish gifts?

[eaglesway]

IMO, Man did not leave perfection. According to Paul, in Romans 8- the creation did not become subject to futility of its own volition but was subjectetd to futility in hope- not hope like "I hope this happens"- but the sure hope that enters within the veil because it is the long distance vision of God predetermined and assured as fact. It was the plan of God and the reason for creation in His mind before He created anything. We call it hope in the time between the promise and the fulfillment, and the promise was made before the world or man or anything else was created- Christ crucified, the Logos of God, God revealed to man in His unique Son the beloved of the Father,  the express image of the invisible God.

[lastpost]

Man disobeyed the laws of God and so became imperfect - thus no longer able to reside in Perfection. So, true, man did not choose to leave Perfection - yet by his choice he was no longer able to exist in Perfection.

[eaglesway]

Thats one way of looking at it. But IMO the plan was set before the event. Was God reacting? Or was He executing Hs plan. I find it hard to believe that God was taken by surpise :o). The Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world. The world was created with the Fall and the Restoration of All Things already written in the SEED- the seed was the LOGOS. All things were created through the Logos and all things are being gathered into one in Christ an administration suitable to the completion of times- The aions and the kosmos were all laid ourt like a map before the creation, INCLUDING THE FALL. It says so in Acts 17 and a few other places.

IMO The fall was the means of teaching His creation how to be children of God, sons of the most high- Jesus our firstborn older brother, leading us all into glory.

[eaglesway]

The Jehovah's Witnesses believe Jesus is god with a small 'g'--a lessor god than God the Father.

The Muslims believe Jesus is a great man and a prophet.

Is that what we are?

Is that what we believe?

Or do we believe he is our great God and Savior Jesus Christ Titus 2:13  ?


Which one is it?  Stand up and be counted before the assembly.



But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

--Mat 10:33

Religious rallying points are meaningless. Are we talking about Jesus being God? Or are we talking about the "Trinity"? If you think they are the same thing you
are not very well informed. If you are asserting that someone must believe in the Trinity or they are denying Jesus before the Father you are being very presumptuos - because believing in the Trintiy - or believing that Jesus is co-equal to the Father are not that kind of issue- that's just religious grandstanding IMO.

Really, I would rather just discuss the theology of it from the scriptures wthout all that nonsense.

[eaglesway]

I confess and believe that anyone who confesses with their mouth Jesus Christ as Lord and believes in their heart that God raised Him from the dead shall be healed by the blood of the LAmb and reconciled to God and become a child of God fully embraced and entitled to all the benefits of membership in the Body of Christ.

[lastpost]

Dear eaglesway, thank you for your considered points. I think that we are in agreement that we do not know the whole Story as we do not have that ability to comprehend or even know it.

I personally believe that God was executing His Plan, yes. He set into being laws that would redeem His children one way or another away back in the beginning, through His Christ.

However, I also believe that not everyone was so wilful as another. I do not believe that I have fallen because someone else fell (although influence is something to be wary of). I believe that I fell because of my own doing. It was me who disobeyed God when He made me in His Image as Spirit and indeed this was before the foundation of this material world. That's what I believe.

[Molly]

We judge with human rationality and experience. We have no ability to assess Divinity which is beyond that rationality and experience. GOD is GOD - a small sacred word that describes a sacred Something so big that there will always be a part unknown even as knowledge of Divinity increases throughout the ages.

When man left Perfection then God went with him in the form of His Christ.
Perfection must of Himself remain Perfection, yet God's Christ does enter imperfection as His Anointed Agent.
And when again He made Himself lower than the angels as the Son of Man, this was but another form taken upon Himself by His Christ and through His Christ.
The Christ seeks down in the lowest depths of the valleys for the lost sheep, it is His Nature begotten of Almighty God.

To me this spells Divine Love. This is how I know Him. He has reached my cold and rotten heart through even my miserable and faulty understanding of His ways, and has ignited it with an everlasting flame that dances here and there seeking ever to follow my Saviour where He wills. And He has given me eternity to do this - pray tell, is there anything else that I should desire to do for eternity but the Will of He Who is Love?

What is it to me if He brings this to others who are not of this fold? Indeed, what is it to anyone? Should man tell God how to give lavish gifts?

Please may I put it this way:

The first Divine aspect revealed was God the Father, the Ruler, the One Who could be found through attrition.

The second Divine aspect revealed was God the Son, the Saviour, the Redeemer, the Sacrificer, the Divine Lover who could be found through contrition.

The third Divine aspect revealed was the Holy Spirit which even now works powerfully on humankind - have no doubt in that.

In this context, the Saviour Christ was - and is - the Lord God Jehovah of old.

Beautiful!  Do I know you by another name?  lol  PM me if I do.

You put it beautifully.  God showing us himself through successive revelations.

We are in the age of God, the Holy Spirit now.   And, that is where we will be until the return of Jesus. 

Some call the book of Acts, 'the gospel of the Holy Spirit.'

The Holy Spirit, this third part of the revealed God, searches the deep things of God and shows them to us.  It takes an intellect to search something and show it to another.  And, these are mysteries hidden by God from the ages and generations,  and now made known to his saints through the Holy Spirit.

Each move of God through the ages brings us closer to Him.


10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

--1 Cor 2

[mplsfitter539]

GOD'S WORD Translation (GW)
John 12 
49 I have not spoken on my own. Instead, the Father who sent me told me what I should say and how I should say it. 50 I know that what he commands is eternal life. Whatever I say is what the Father told me to say."

This verse does not in the slightest say anything about the trinity theory. In fact this verse says the exact opposite and flies in the face of what the trinitarians believe

[Molly]

How is it the opposite?  Would you rather have him say, I don't care what my Father says, I'm talking for myself here?

Three in one, three in one, three in one...

[rosered]

How is it the opposite?  Would you rather have him say, I don't care what my Father says, I'm talking for myself here?

Three in one, three in one, three in one...

By Gods  wisdom and design
Eph 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him


1Cr 8:6 But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.


Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all.
1Ti 2:5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. 


Mat 28:18   And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 
Mat 28:19   Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 


Mat 28:20   Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen. 

[Molly]

15 For this reason, because I have heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love toward all the saints, 16 I do not cease to give thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers, 17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him, 18 having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which he has called you, what are the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, 19 and what is the immeasurable greatness of his power toward us who believe, according to the working of his great might 20 that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. 22 And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all.

--Eph 1


That has to be read very fast lol

Then read it again about ten more times.

[Molly]

22 God has put all things under the authority of Christ and has made him head over all things for the benefit of the church. 23 And the church is his body; it is made full and complete by Christ, who fills all things everywhere with himself.

--Eph 1



He's doing all this for us!

[jabcat]

It seems like maybe we're not all speaking the same language in this discussion.

How does John 12:49 actually prove anything about the Trinity or non-Trinity beliefs?  I just see it saying Jesus and His Father worked together (as One - no disagreements, perfect harmony), and Jesus did His Father's will - as a "good Son" would. 

So IMO, it boils down to 3 things with the Trinity discussion;

1) does one believe Jesus is God/Divine/the same Substance as His Father, existing from before creation - or not (i.e., someone who came into existence later, and God just especially blessed and called/made him his son)

2) the Holy Spirit is a "co-equal" Person in the Trinity, or not (i.e., still God's Spirit, the Holy or Pure Spirit, but more so the breath of God, God's power which He uses to do His will, the "active" part that emanates from Him)

3) or the "Oneness Pentecostal/Apostolic" view, i.e., Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit are all LITERALLY one, that just represents Himself as different aspects depending on the situation (sometimes playing the role of Father, sometimes the role of Son, sometimes the role of Holy Spirit, but never any actual, real separate aspects/Entities).