Trinity Discussion, split from "Something I Just Read"

[redhotmagma]

Perhaps....as I read it He said, before Abraham was, I am". He did not say, "I am YHWH"-

well, in that passage, yes, he is saying he is YHWH.   I AM is the memorial name for God.  I AM is YAH.

13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?

14 And God said unto Moses, I Am That I Am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you.

--Ex 3

"Tell the children of Israel, YAH has sent me unto you."



The priests knew he was claiming to be God.  They knew he was claiming to the the YHWH of the Old Testament.  That's why they killed him for blasphemy.   The Rider on the Clouds in the Old Testament is God, he is YHWH.



64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

65 Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy.

66 What think ye? They answered and said, He is guilty of death.

67 Then did they spit in his face, and buffeted him; and others smote him with the palms of their hands,

68 Saying, Prophesy unto us, thou Christ, Who is he that smote thee?

Mat 26




If Jesus isn't God, who cares if he died?

If Jesus is God, then you are stuck with the trinity.  And, you don't want to be there, I guess,  stuck with the trinity, so the next best thing is to say Jesus isn't God.   I can finally see where everyone is going with this.

Ex 3:14 God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM." He said further, "Thus you shall say to the Israelites, 'I AM has sent me to you.'"

the LXX translates I AM WHO I AM as eimi ho eimi

1 Cor 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me.

also eimi(1510) ho(3588) eimi(1510)

Is Paul also claiming to be God?

[mplsfitter539]

well, ok, I don't seem to be making much progress here.  I seem to be the only one who believes Jesus is God, was God, and will be God forever.  [which, I will admit, is a little disappointing.]

If there are others, you could help me out lol.

But, if you want me to prove the trinity, which presupposes three Gods, or, more like it,  God in three persons, then it seems like I would have to start with Jesus.

That is a good place to start since this is what the Word says

John 1

1 In the beginning the Word already existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was already with God in the beginning.

3 Everything came into existence through him. Not one thing that exists was made without him.

4 He was the source of life, and that life was the light for humanity.

5 The light shines in the dark, and the dark has never extinguished it

Truly the Son of God

[Molly]

Perhaps....as I read it He said, before Abraham was, I am". He did not say, "I am YHWH"-

well, in that passage, yes, he is saying he is YHWH.   I AM is the memorial name for God.  I AM is YAH.

13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?

14 And God said unto Moses, I Am That I Am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you.

--Ex 3

"Tell the children of Israel, YAH has sent me unto you."



The priests knew he was claiming to be God.  They knew he was claiming to the the YHWH of the Old Testament.  That's why they killed him for blasphemy.   The Rider on the Clouds in the Old Testament is God, he is YHWH.



64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

65 Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy.

66 What think ye? They answered and said, He is guilty of death.

67 Then did they spit in his face, and buffeted him; and others smote him with the palms of their hands,

68 Saying, Prophesy unto us, thou Christ, Who is he that smote thee?

Mat 26




If Jesus isn't God, who cares if he died?

If Jesus is God, then you are stuck with the trinity.  And, you don't want to be there, I guess,  stuck with the trinity, so the next best thing is to say Jesus isn't God.   I can finally see where everyone is going with this.

Ex 3:14 God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM." He said further, "Thus you shall say to the Israelites, 'I AM has sent me to you.'"

the LXX translates I AM WHO I AM as eimi ho eimi

1 Cor 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me.

also eimi(1510) ho(3588) eimi(1510)

Is Paul also claiming to be God?

No, Paul is just talking.  I am a man.   That's just the English language.

But, if I were telling you I knew Abraham and Abraham told me how happy he was that I would be standing here with you today, and if you said when did you know Abraham, you're not even 50 years old, and I said, YAH was before Abraham,  [before Abraham, I AM]--then I am giving you a message.  And, the message was so strong to the Jews who understood what he was saying, that they went to stone him --right there on the spot--for blasphemy.

Context is everything.

[Molly]

well, ok, I don't seem to be making much progress here.  I seem to be the only one who believes Jesus is God, was God, and will be God forever.  [which, I will admit, is a little disappointing.]

If there are others, you could help me out lol.

But, if you want me to prove the trinity, which presupposes three Gods, or, more like it,  God in three persons, then it seems like I would have to start with Jesus.

That is a good place to start since this is what the Word says

John 1

1 In the beginning the Word already existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was already with God in the beginning.

3 Everything came into existence through him. Not one thing that exists was made without him.

4 He was the source of life, and that life was the light for humanity.

5 The light shines in the dark, and the dark has never extinguished it

Truly the Son of God

This passage is talking about God the Creator.

This passage is saying Jesus is God the Creator.

As is this one:


For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

--Col 1

[mplsfitter539]

well, ok, I don't seem to be making much progress here.  I seem to be the only one who believes Jesus is God, was God, and will be God forever.  [which, I will admit, is a little disappointing.]

If there are others, you could help me out lol.

But, if you want me to prove the trinity, which presupposes three Gods, or, more like it,  God in three persons, then it seems like I would have to start with Jesus.

That is a good place to start since this is what the Word says

John 1

1 In the beginning the Word already existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was already with God in the beginning.

3 Everything came into existence through him. Not one thing that exists was made without him.

4 He was the source of life, and that life was the light for humanity.

5 The light shines in the dark, and the dark has never extinguished it

Truly the Son of God

This passage is talking about God the Creator.

This passage is saying Jesus is God the Creator.

As is this one:


For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

--Col 1

Bingo Molly 

in the beginning the Word existed

, this is the Son. In our beginning the Son was already personally responsible for us and all of creation. He served His Master well and will continue until

1 Corinthians 15
24 Then the end will come. Christ will hand over the kingdom to God the Father as he destroys every ruler, authority, and power.

Please don't tell me that this proves the trinity theory. The Son will hand over the kingdom to His Father who is obviously the greater One.

[Molly]

It doesn't say there the Father is 'the greater one.'

I'm just really confused about what you believe.  You said 'Bingo" to Jesus is God the Creator.

But you think there is a greater God than God the Creator?

[mplsfitter539]

It doesn't say there the Father is 'the greater one.'

I'm just really confused about what you believe.  You said 'Bingo" to Jesus is God the Creator.

But you think there is a greater God than God the Creator?

Sorry I should have specified and yes you are correct the scripture does not say that but like your trinity theory it is implied. If Yashua hands over the kingdom to YHVY then it could be assumed.
John 1
14 The Word became human and lived among us. We saw his glory. It was the glory that the Father shares with his only Son, a glory full of kindness and truth.

[rosered]

well, ok, I don't seem to be making much progress here.  I seem to be the only one who believes Jesus is God, was God, and will be God forever.  [which, I will admit, is a little disappointing.]

If there are others, you could help me out lol.

But, if you want me to prove the trinity, which presupposes three Gods, or, more like it,  God in three persons, then it seems like I would have to start with Jesus.

I tried Molly    but  it seems futile

I am not sure anyone believes what  was posted  :sigh:

   But for me  only this  is  what   I consider the Holy Spririt 
Mother Wisdom  . God the Father  and Jesus Christ  Son of God  those  3  ='' the Holy Spirit ''comforter ''  as a mother loves and comforts a  child  , those  3 natures   as ONE SPIRIT   seems  to complete    the unity 3 is  1
  , very little is said about Gods Wisdom forth right   , she has been a  hidden  treasure   to seek and find   set up from everlasting  the begining and By Him

since    even you do not    believe this  , I shall bow out , and God bless you all each and every one
  looking    and searching to find   proof  :HeartThrob:   

22 The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.

25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:

26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.

27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:

28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:

29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:

30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;

31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.32

Now therefore hearken unto me, O ye children: for blessed are they that keep my ways.

33 Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not

[Molly]

well, ok, I don't seem to be making much progress here.  I seem to be the only one who believes Jesus is God, was God, and will be God forever.  [which, I will admit, is a little disappointing.]

If there are others, you could help me out lol.

But, if you want me to prove the trinity, which presupposes three Gods, or, more like it,  God in three persons, then it seems like I would have to start with Jesus.

I tried Molly    but  it seems futile

I am not sure anyone believes what  was posted  :sigh:

   But for me  only this  is  what   I consider the Holy Spririt 
Mother Wisdom  . God the Father  and Jesus Christ  Son of God  those  3  =" the Holy Spirit "comforter "  as a mother loves and comforts a  child  , those  3 natures   as ONE SPIRIT   seems  to complete    the unity 3 is  1
  , very little is said about Gods Wisdom forth right   , she has been a  hidden  treasure   to seek and find   set up from everlasting  the begining and By Him

since    even you do not    believe this  , I shall bow out , and God bless you all each and every one
  looking    and searching to find   proof  :HeartThrob:   

22 The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.

25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:

26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.

27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:

28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:

29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:

30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;

31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.32

Now therefore hearken unto me, O ye children: for blessed are they that keep my ways.

33 Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not

I'm listening to you, rosered.  It's new to me, this teaching about wisdom, so I am mulling it over and thinking about it.  You shouldn't bow out.  I always love to read your posts.

[rosered]

 

  Molly  Have been  enjoying your posts you do make some very  valid  points with scripture
  This is  what made me   ''come out ''  of hiding  :laughing7: , where I just  usually   read 
Changing  in  spiritual growth   by the grace of God  , a thankful  and humbled  by His mercy always .
God bless ya sis !  :girlheart:

[jabcat]

Molly, I'm not going any further into the Trinity discussion, but I believe Jesus is God.  God the Son.  I of course don't believe He's God the Father, who I believe is Supreme, with His Son subject to Him - similar to how an earthly father is (traditionally considered) the head of the household.  My son and I are both Berrys.  But I'm the father, and as long as he's in my house especially - I expect respect and even submission at some point (or maybe deference is a better word).  If/when he moves out, that interaction may change.  But he'll always be both a Berry (same substance) and my son.  I see it same with YHWH and Yashua - same substance (God, holy, divine), but one Father and one Son.  And I don't see that ever changing, as Jesus will never move out of His Father's house - they will always interact as One.  IMO, MOSTLY, the Trinity discussion often comes down to whether someone sees the Holy Spirit as a Person or as the breath, active force, the Spirit that emanates from God when He "moves".  I choose to not get into the specifics of that at present.  Some of my views, on many things, are still in process, as the Lord leads and teaches me.  Far to go.  And as John/eaglesway indicated, I too believe - these things may be important in terms of doctrine, growing in grace and knowledge as God gives revelation and understanding to each of us - but are NOT the things that determine one's standing with God through the application in each person's life of the saving blood of Jesus.   :2c:

Here's where I am.   :bigGrin:   By grace are we saved through faith, and that not of ourselves.  We overcome by the blood of the Lamb.

[Molly]

Thanks for that post, Jab. :thumbsup:


Before Abraham was, I AM. Jn 8:58.   This catches our eye because of the odd construct, a past event  [Before Abraham was] juxtaposed with a present tense. [I AM].  It works in Greek and even works in English.  If we knew nothing about I  AM being the memorial name of God, we would still understand what he was saying, in that he was identifying himself as a divine being who existed before Abraham.  But, the Jews knew exactly who he was saying he was, because they moved to stone him immediately for blasphemy.  The Jews knew I AM was YAH.

A Catholic friend said to me once, You mean Jesus existed before he was born in a manger?  I was astounded at that question because surely the Catholic church teaches he did.   But,  this person never read a Bible and the mass was in Latin.  Then again, just the other day, I heard my favorite Catholic priest on the radio tell his Christian [mostly Catholic presumably] listeners they were all members of the Melchizedek priesthood.  That also astounded me because I doubt that is routinely taught in the Catholic church but this priest is always standing on scripture instead of what is approved by the church to be taught. 

I think on the other side of things, we can get put off by the humanity of Jesus.  For instance, why does Jesus need to receive the Holy Spirit if he is God?   First, though, John the Baptist says a similar thing to Jn 8:58 about Jesus.    Even though John is six months older than Jesus, he says this:

27 He it is, who coming after me is preferred before me, whose shoe's latchet I am not worthy to unloose.

John is saying, Jesus existed before John did even though Jesus was born after John.   When Jesus comes to John to be baptized, John does not want to do it, saying, I am not worthy to untie your sandals.  But, Jesus insists, so that scripture might be fulfilled.  Then we see the HS descend in the form of a dove [the symbol of peace and reconciliation from Noah's covenant with God], and God the Father speaking from heaven gives us two witnesses to the Son of God.

Again, why does Jesus need to be baptized if he is God?  I believe because everything Jesus did is everything we will do, following in his footsteps, to reach the place we will eventually reach as co-inheritors with Christ.  He did every step first, from baptism to resurrection, first to show us the Way, second to become the Way for us, and most particularly because, as God,  he must be pre-eminent in all things, including this, the firstborn of many brothers. Rom 8:29

[Molly]

The oneness of the Father and the Son


No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known. [NIV]


No one has ever seen God. But the unique One, who is himself God, is near to the Father's heart. He has revealed God to us.[NLT]


No man has seen God at any time; The Only Begotten God Who is in the bosom of The Father, he has declared him."  [Aramaic Bible in Plain English]

--John 1:18




The KJV also tells us Jesus is 'in the bosom' of the Father in Jn 1:18.   What does that mean?


"bosom"

Synonyms
noun.  heart 



This is literally saying Jesus is the heart of the Father.

Jesus tells us he "proceeded forth" from the Father.

42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.  Jn 8


I "proceeded forth" [and came from God]

G1831
ἐξέρχομαι
exerchomai
ex-er'-khom-ahee
From G1537 and G2064; to issue (literally or figuratively): - come-(forth, out), depart (out of), escape, get out, go (abroad, away, forth, out, thence), proceed (forth), spread abroad.


God the Father has literally given his heart to the world.


16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.  Jn 3:16


Even "separated" from the Father as he walked this earth, he tells us. I am in the Father and the Father is in me.

For this reason, Jesus can tell us, "I and the Father are one." Jn 10:30

Neither is Jesus just a chip off the old block.  But, rather he is the exact image of the invisible God, Col.1:15 .

When we look at Jesus, we are not seeing someone who is related to the Father or sort of like the Father, rather, we are seeing the Father himself, the incarnation of the invisible God.


7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

--John 14

[micah7:9]

It doesn't say there the Father is 'the greater one.'

I'm just really confused about what you believe.  You said 'Bingo" to Jesus is God the Creator.

But you think there is a greater God than God the Creator?

Joh 14:28  Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

[Colleen]

Why did Jesus say, "why callest thou me good?  There is none good but my Father which is in heaven."?! This has always puzzled me. Forgive me if this has already been discussed here.

[rosered]

Why did Jesus say, "why callest thou me good?  There is none good but my Father which is in heaven."?! This has always puzzled me. Forgive me if this has already been discussed here.

Hi Colleen ,
     That is just a great question !   


A  comfort  for me  was Jesus come to glorify  His Father    and less focus on  himself
  Worship God  , He also said ,  unless they would  begin   to idolize him  in human form ,  We are  knowing Jesus was  so much more than   just a man  , that the Father would glorify His Son , Jesus never wanted praises of men  , but  to Honor  His  Father 
  Wanting to help   by sharing  thoughts

[micah7:9]

And lest anyone misunderstand, I don't mind at all if the Trinity concept explains the Deity for someone- And I have known some beautiful believers of every persuasion. In my oppinion, in this age, all one needs to "believe" is  that Jesus was the only begotten Son of God, lived a beautiful sinless life perfected in love, died a substitute for  guilty man and was raised from the dead in the flesh and in the Spirit and is alive Today, to become a "member" of the houehold of faith.

Membership has privileges and responsibilities. IMO Believing in the Trinity(or any other polarizing "label/icon") is not one of them.

I take issue with Jesus being our substitute.... :HeartThrob: Perhaps a new thread, but it was here I noticed it.
Substitute..to put instead of. A person or thing serving or used in place of another. If as you say Jesus was our subsitute, then we don't have to die. Because Jesus died INSTEAD of us.
But the Bible states in Gen. 2:17  thou shalt surely die.
And Paul wrote Rom 6:23  For the wages of sin is death and the writer of Heb.
Heb 9:27  And as it is appointed unto men once to die.
I do not believe that Jesus was our instead of..substitute. He died FOR not instead of the sins of the whole world
Joh 1:29 taketh away the sin of the world. Yet we all must pay the wages for
our sins and that payment is death.
1Jn 2:2  And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. He atoned for the sins of the whole world, still we must pay the wage. Or not?
1Co 15:3  For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

[Molly]

If as you say Jesus was our subsitute, then we don't have to die.

Exactly.  We don't have to die.  I keep trying to tell you that, Micah.  Remember the first passover lamb?  What happened?  They put the blood of the lamb on the doorposts and every firstborn died around them but theirs did not have to die.

But Jesus is the Lamb of God  How much greater is He than the shadow?


Sometimes the church gets it right.   :banana: :banana:


and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

--John 11:26

[Molly]

Why did Jesus say, "why callest thou me good?  There is none good but my Father which is in heaven."?! This has always puzzled me. Forgive me if this has already been discussed here.

Hi Colleen ,
     That is just a great question !   


A  comfort  for me  was Jesus come to glorify  His Father    and less focus on  himself
  Worship God  , He also said ,  unless they would  begin   to idolize him  in human form ,  We are  knowing Jesus was  so much more than   just a man  , that the Father would glorify His Son , Jesus never wanted praises of men  , but  to Honor  His  Father 
  Wanting to help   by sharing  thoughts

Yes, also Jesus makes this statement for our edification while he is walking the earth in a human body.

Because we know that even in a human body he was without sin.



Jesus points to the Father and the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit points to Jesus and to the Father.

The Father sends the Son and sends the Holy Spirit.

Would you say that all three together are God?


The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are all present at the creation as God.




1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

--John 1



1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

--Gen 1



26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:

--Gen 1

[Lazarus Short]

Do we all agree Jesus is God?  Otherwise, I have to start there to prove the trinity.

Yes in the since that they share the title of God, but YHVH is the one God and Christ in Him, serving Him humbly. Like I said I share my earthly fathers name but I am not him. My father and I share much of the same DNA but that still does not make me him. In many ways I am like my father but I could never be him. The Christ is not and has not become his own father.

I was thinking the same thing.  Jesus told the jews "I said ye are gods." also in (Eph. 3:14-15) For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ of whome the whole family in heaven and earth is NAMED.

This tells me that everything will have the Father's name because we are His sons and daughters and what family doesn't go by their father's name?

CHB

Yes - as Herbert W. Armstrong said, when you become a Christian, you become adopted into the GOD family.  I read in the New Testament that "We shall be like Him."  The best clues may just be in Jesus' prayer on the Mount of Olives, just before His arrest.

[Molly]

It doesn't say there the Father is 'the greater one.'

I'm just really confused about what you believe.  You said 'Bingo" to Jesus is God the Creator.

But you think there is a greater God than God the Creator?

Joh 14:28  Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

While he walked on this earth, Jesus was limited by a human body.  He humbled himself to appear  in human form.  Even so, we are told "in him dwelleth the fullness of the Godhead bodily." Col 2:9   It's interesting how they put that.  It doesn't say the fullness of the Father bodily.

"Godhead"

G2320
θεότης
theotēs
theh-to'-ace
From G2316; divinity (abstractly): - godhead.


For me, the Godhead is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, also known as God.

And as much as could be present in a human body, Jesus had it--filled to the brim and overflowing-- while he walked on this earth.

[jbertonbounds]

This is neither in support of the trinity concept, nor in opposition to it:

Genesis 2:24 - Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.
Matthew 19:5 - and said, 'Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'?
Mark 10:8 - and the two shall become one flesh.' So they are no longer two but one flesh.
Ephesians 5:31 - "Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh."

John 10.30 - I and the Father are one.
John 17:11b - ...Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one.
John 17:21a - that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you...

2 Cor 3:17 - Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.
2 Cor 3:18 - And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.

"Lord" in 2 Cor 3.17-18 is from the Greek word kyrios:
  1) he to whom a person or thing belongs, about which he has power of deciding; master, lord
      a) the possessor and disposer of a thing
          1) the owner; one who has control of the person, the master
          2) in the state: the sovereign, prince, chief, the Roman emperor
      b) is a title of honour expressive of respect and reverence, with which servants greet their master
      c) this title is given to: God, the Messiah


Here is what I am seeing here:
Jesus said he and the father are one.  Perhaps he meant this in the same sense that a man and his wife are one - not literally one entity, but rather in the oneness of complete unity.  Later Paul said that the Lord is the Spirit.  The word "Lord" in the scriptures is used to refer to both God and Jesus.  I lean toward seeing the word "Lord" in 2 Cor 3.17-18 as referring to the Father.  I don't know of any scriptures that actually teach the concept of the trinity.  There is one passage, 1 John 5.7-8, which in some translations contain text that would support the trinity concept:

1 John 5.7-8 [KJV] - ⁷For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.  ⁸And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Notice how the ESV version differs from the KJV:

1 John 5.7-8 [ESV] - ⁷For there are three that testify: ⁸the Spirit and the water and the blood; and these three agree.

The notes in the NIV tell us that, "Late manuscripts of the Vulgate [say] 'testify in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. And there are three that testify on earth: the' ([but these words are] not found in any Greek manuscript before the fourteenth century)"

Hmmm. :Chinscratch:

[Molly]

What does the term Godhead mean?


The word "Godhead" occurs in the King James Version only 3 times (it is not found in the NIC or NASB) Acts 17:29; Rom 1:20; Col. 2:9, and it translates slightly different each time, though closely related (In Greek- theion, theiotes, theotes). Theion means "that which is Divine," Paul uses this word in Acts 17:29 in an address made to a heathen audience. The Greeks used it in the sense of "the Divine Being," as a general term to designate "the Deity" apart from reference to a particular god.

This passage in Col.2:9 and one other are the most explicit statements of Christ's deity in the New Testament. Col.2:9 "For in him dwells (lives) the fullness of the Godhead bodily" (bodily form). "God was in Christ" (2 Cor.5:19).

All that makes God who He is, is to be found in Jesus. This does not exclude that the Father is also fully God or the Holy Spirit (the Helper) is fully God. This should not be confused to a similar word in Romans 1:20, theiotes, expressing the quality of God, or divinity. It is not that certain aspects dwell in Jesus Christ in bodily form, but He by His very nature is God, the Supreme Being, our creator.

"Godhead" is from two Greek words theos and deitas combined in Gr. theioteôs. The scriptural term Godhead (KJV) is rendered "divine nature" or "deity"; it means the very essence of God. The meaning of the term "fullness of the godhead" is that Jesus was fully God on earth just as His Father is fully in heaven. The point made in this Scripture is that Jesus was 100% God in the flesh. So this term is proving He is the second person of the Tri-unity, of the Godhead. This nature of God is shared among three and no more. That deity has a permanent home in Christ in bodily fashion (Col.2:9), all the divine nature, all that makes God who he is, is resident in the body form of Jesus. B.B. Warfield states, "that which makes God, God." For in him dwells (lives) is a present tense verb, which means a continuing action. That deity now permanently resides in his body, in Greek, katoikeo, meaning to house permanently. This means that the Son continues to exist in a body. Yet there are those who say the Son had a beginning and will have an ending. As man He did have a beginning but as God He was eternal. (Micah.5:2)


Col.1:19 says before 2:9, "For It pleased the Father that in Him should dwell all the fullness" (Greek- pleroma). Meaning, the totality of the Divine powers and attributes are filled up in Jesus- God's omnipotence, omniscience, omnipresence. This same letter had already affirmed the pre-existence of the Son in Col. 1:15-17, and in 1:3 it distinguishes the Lord Jesus Christ from the Father. Since He was the Word that was "with" God at the creation of all things and was God (John 1:1, 18; Phil.2:6).


The fullness of the Godhead was in Christ as He took flesh. When it says "all the fullness should dwell," this is defined as the totality of the Divine powers and attributes" (i.e. Lightfoot) "should dwell," meaning to make an abode or home. All the same divine attributes that are in the Father are at home in Jesus' body also. Therefore this is a proclamation of God becoming man and living on earth.

We see this illustrated when Jesus was baptized, coming up from the water: the heavens were opened, and saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and resting upon him; a voice came out of the heavens, saying, "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased" (Matthew 3:13-17). In this passage we see God (YHWH) the Father in heaven speaking, God the Son on earth receiving, as God the Spirit in the form of a dove descended upon God the Son. Here the three distinct Persons are active composing the Godhead.

Later after the crucifixion and resurrection the disciple were commissioned to baptize believers, not into names (plural), but into the Name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. The doctrine of plurality of the Godhead— a tri-unity (the Trinity) is exhibited by Jesus' command.

Matthew 28:19,20 we have the order as Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

I Corinthians 12:4-6 it is in the order of the Holy Spirit, the Lord Jesus and God the Father.

Ephesians 4:4-6 the order is the Holy Spirit, the Son and the Father. They are coequal, coeternal, possessing the nature of God, thus comprising the Triunity.

On Mars Hill the Apostle Paul told the Athenians that "we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and device of man" (Acts 17:29). The word Godhead here is be understood as that which is divine, or deity. In other words nothing that man makes can represent God correctly.

http://www.letusreason.org/Biblexp218.htm

[Molly]

1 John 5.7-8 [KJV] - 7For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.  8And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Notice how the ESV version differs from the KJV:

1 John 5.7-8 [ESV] - 7For there are three that testify: 8the Spirit and the water and the blood; and these three agree.

The notes in the NIV tell us that, "Late manuscripts of the Vulgate [say] 'testify in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. And there are three that testify on earth: the' ([but these words are] not found in any Greek manuscript before the fourteenth century)"

Don't worry about it, the three are found together elsewhere in the Bible.

For instance, here:


16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.

17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.

18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen

--Mat 28

[jabcat]

If as you say Jesus was our subsitute, then we don't have to die.

Exactly.  We don't have to die.  I keep trying to tell you that, Micah.  Remember the first passover lamb?  What happened?  They put the blood of the lamb on the doorposts and every firstborn died around them but theirs did not have to die.

But Jesus is the Lamb of God  How much greater is He than the shadow?


Sometimes the church gets it right.   :banana: :banana:


and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

--John 11:26

Even if one gets hung up on physical death, there's still the spiritual death/life in question.  We were "once DEAD in our trespasses and sins".   

I'm having a discussion right now through email with a brother about the sacrifice/atonement.  I'm not saying micah is, but many are attempting to take the sacrifice out of things. Hebrews 10 explains it well.  Blessings, James.