Trinity Discussion, split from "Something I Just Read"

[rosered]

I have said ye are all gods, sons of the Most High

OK Let me put it another way.  Jesus said he was YHWH.

  now this is a different direction all together  Molly ! the Great IAM  ,now you just   got us over a barrel   here  :laugh:

  For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him; 


Hbr 7:2   To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace; 


Hbr 7:3   Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.




In the resurrection therefore, when they shall rise, whose wife shall she be of them? for the seven had her to wife. 


Mar 12:24   And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God? 
Mar 12:25   For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven. 
Mar 12:26   And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I [am] the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? 


Mar 12:27   He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err

[micah7:9]

Absolutly! H3068  Jehovah   yeh-ho-vaw'   self Existent or eternal; Jehovah
From H1961; (the) self Existent or eternal; Jehovah, Jewish national name of God: - Jehovah, the Lord. Compare H3050, H3069.
H3091  Joshua  yeh-ho-shoo'-ah, yeh-ho-shoo'-ah   Jehovah-saved  From H3068
G2424  Jesus   Iēsous  Of Hebrew origin [H3091]; Jesus (that is, Jehoshua),
Jehovah= Lord God

[redhotmagma]

To him who overcomes I will give him my name and my Fathers name. 

[mplsfitter539]

I have said ye are all gods, sons of the Most High

OK Let me put it another way.  Jesus said he was YHWH.

And your point is what?
I still don't know why you keep coming back with the same answer every time. Have any of us non-trinitarians disputed anything that is in plain writing within the Word of God? NO we have not so stop showing proof of things that we all except to be truth. The trinity is not in the Word of God therefore you can throw all of your excuses for believing in something that the Word of God did not see fit to include. I personally refuse to be swayed by anything other than the Word itself. You are interpreting the scriptures to describe something that a bunch of theologians put together here on earth in the 2nd century AD. You are defending the Catholic church and all of their pagan man made doctrines/theories. 

[micah7:9]

Well put :dsunny:

[eaglesway]

"Molly said,OK Let me put it another way.  Jesus said he was YHWH"


Perhaps....as I read it He said, before Abraham was, I am". He did not say, "I am YHWH"- as I read it, but I think it is an honest interpretation- I just don't see it that way because it does not integrate with the rest of the scriptures on the subject- the context.

Col 1:19 For God was pleased(For so it pleased the Father) to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

I read that as "It was the Fathers good will to make all His fulness dwell in the Jesus, the Anointed One"

Col 2:9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10 and in Christ you have been brought to fullness.

"Now through the Anointed One the Father is making all His fulness dwell in us"

1 Cor 15:24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he "has put everything under his feet."[c] Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

"Soon the Father will have pored His fulness through His only begotten Son, and us as many sons unto glory, into the entire creation, setting them free into the glorious liberty of the children of God"

vs 27 and 28, for me, show the relationship between the Father and Son very clearly and I see Jesus as the subordinate in the relationship. Paul clearly states the Father put all things under/into Christ, and the Psalmist bears witness- "Sit thou at my right hand until I(Father) make all your enemies your footstool".

[rosered]

  that was a great post John  :dsunny:

[Molly]

Perhaps....as I read it He said, before Abraham was, I am". He did not say, "I am YHWH"-

well, in that passage, yes, he is saying he is YHWH.   I AM is the memorial name for God.  I AM is YAH.

13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?

14 And God said unto Moses, I Am That I Am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you.

--Ex 3

"Tell the children of Israel, YAH has sent me unto you."



The priests knew he was claiming to be God.  They knew he was claiming to the the YHWH of the Old Testament.  That's why they killed him for blasphemy.   The Rider on the Clouds in the Old Testament is God, he is YHWH.



64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

65 Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy.

66 What think ye? They answered and said, He is guilty of death.

67 Then did they spit in his face, and buffeted him; and others smote him with the palms of their hands,

68 Saying, Prophesy unto us, thou Christ, Who is he that smote thee?

Mat 26




If Jesus isn't God, who cares if he died?

If Jesus is God, then you are stuck with the trinity.  And, you don't want to be there, I guess,  stuck with the trinity, so the next best thing is to say Jesus isn't God.   I can finally see where everyone is going with this.

[Molly]

53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?

54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:

55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.

56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM

59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

--John 8



He tells the Jews, Abraham rejoiced when he saw my day.  And, the Jews make fun of him, --how did you know Abraham?  You're not even 50 years old.  ha ha ha

Then he tells them, YAH was before Abraham.

Now they again understand he is saying he is YHWH and they go to stone him for blasphemy.

Good luck with that.  He made himself invisible because it was not yet his time.

[rosered]

  Molly , you mean the Holy One , of Israel ?



2Ki 19:22 Whom hast thou reproached and blasphemed? and against whom hast thou exalted [thy] voice, and lifted up thine eyes on high? [even] against the Holy [One] of Israel. Job 6:10 Then should I yet have comfort; yea, I would harden myself in sorrow: let him not spare; for I have not concealed the words of the Holy One.

Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

[Molly]

  Molly , you mean the Holy One , of Israel ?



2Ki 19:22 Whom hast thou reproached and blasphemed? and against whom hast thou exalted [thy] voice, and lifted up thine eyes on high? [even] against the Holy [One] of Israel. Job 6:10 Then should I yet have comfort; yea, I would harden myself in sorrow: let him not spare; for I have not concealed the words of the Holy One.

Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Yes.


Thus says the LORD [YHWH], your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel: "I am the LORD [YHWH] your God, who teaches you to profit, who leads you in the way you should go.

--Isa 48:17

[mplsfitter539]

I still have not seen one thread of proof of the trinity theory. Every time the trinitarians reply to questions here they quote scripture to prove the Yashua is the Son of YHVH. Jesus like me shares in His fathers glory and name. You can stop proving that Jesus is the Son of God now prove your theory. Theories must be proven if they are to be accepted as truth. The Word of God is truth, prove the trinity with the Word of God without revisiting things that are not being disputed here. For the record I think we all agree that Yashua is the Son of God. 

DuWayne

[Molly]

Do we all agree Jesus is God?  Otherwise, I have to start there to prove the trinity.

[sheila]

wondering about this...Jesus Christ..though being in nature God...when he found himself in flesh...

  did not consider himself equal unto God..but humbled himself.

   nature God..in particular...what is being expressed?  his humbling of himself as not God's =

   I don't know if looking into this will help clear it,or not?

   to me..having the nature of God is the life in himself granted of the Father.  the servants /flesh/form

is a vessel form that does not always remain in the Father's house....but the son status does[life in

himself/God nature]

   just pondering...

[mplsfitter539]

Do we all agree Jesus is God?  Otherwise, I have to start there to prove the trinity.

Yes in the since that they share the title of God, but YHVH is the one God and Christ in Him, serving Him humbly. Like I said I share my earthly fathers name but I am not him. My father and I share much of the same DNA but that still does not make me him. In many ways I am like my father but I could never be him. The Christ is not and has not become his own father.

[Molly]

Do we all agree Jesus is God?  Otherwise, I have to start there to prove the trinity.

Yes in the since that they share the title of God, but YHVH is the one God and Christ in Him, serving Him humbly. Like I said I share my earthly fathers name but I am not him. My father and I share much of the same DNA but that still does not make me him. In many ways I am like my father but I could never be him. The Christ is not and has not become his own father.

I keep thinking you are playing with words.   I am in Christ and Christ is in God, so am I God, too?  Am I God in the same sense that Jesus is?   So, is Jesus God in his own right or not?

What makes Jesus different in nature from me?

Again, is Jesus God?

PS you could be your father if you and he had the same DNA, that is, if you were a clone, just saying.

[CHB]

Do we all agree Jesus is God?  Otherwise, I have to start there to prove the trinity.

Yes in the since that they share the title of God, but YHVH is the one God and Christ in Him, serving Him humbly. Like I said I share my earthly fathers name but I am not him. My father and I share much of the same DNA but that still does not make me him. In many ways I am like my father but I could never be him. The Christ is not and has not become his own father.

I was thinking the same thing.  Jesus told the jews "I said ye are gods." also in (Eph. 3:14-15) For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ of whome the whole family in heaven and earth is NAMED.

This tells me that everything will have the Father's name because we are His sons and daughters and what family doesn't go by their father's name?

CHB

[Molly]

6Though he was God,
he did not think of equality with God
as something to cling to.
7 Instead, he gave up his divine privileges;
he took the humble position of a slave
and was born as a human being.

When he appeared in human form,
8 he humbled himself in obedience to God
and died a criminal's death on a cross.

--Phil 2


Could everyone agree with this statement?

[mplsfitter539]

6Though he was God,
he did not think of equality with God
as something to cling to.
7 Instead, he gave up his divine privileges;
he took the humble position of a slave
and was born as a human being.

When he appeared in human form,
8 he humbled himself in obedience to God
and died a criminal's death on a cross.

--Phil 2


Could everyone agree with this statement?

Molly I do believe it is the first post of yours on this thread that I will agree with.

Oh yea, well, you do know that there supposedly has never been a successful human clone right?

[Molly]

6Though he was God,
he did not think of equality with God
as something to cling to.
7 Instead, he gave up his divine privileges;
he took the humble position of a slave
and was born as a human being.

When he appeared in human form,
8 he humbled himself in obedience to God
and died a criminal's death on a cross.

--Phil 2


Could everyone agree with this statement?

Molly I do believe it is the first post of yours on this thread that I will agree with.

Oh yea, well, you do know that there supposedly has never been a successful human clone right?

So we agree that Jesus is God?   Does that mean we can count at least two Gods--God the Father and God the Son?


23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

--Mat 1



PS If you don't think they have cloned a man, yet, I have a bridge in brooklyn to sell you.

[mplsfitter539]

Do we all agree Jesus is God?  Otherwise, I have to start there to prove the trinity.

Yes in the since that they share the title of God, but YHVH is the one God and Christ in Him, serving Him humbly. Like I said I share my earthly fathers name but I am not him. My father and I share much of the same DNA but that still does not make me him. In many ways I am like my father but I could never be him. The Christ is not and has not become his own father.

I keep thinking you are playing with words.   I am in Christ and Christ is in God, so am I God, too?  Am I God in the same sense that Jesus is?   So, is Jesus God in his own right or not?

What makes Jesus different in nature from me?

Again, is Jesus God?

PS you could be your father if you and he had the same DNA, that is, if you were a clone, just saying.

To your first question I say

Acts 17
29 So if we are God's children, we shouldn't think that the divine being is like an image made from gold, silver, or stone, an image that is the product of human imagination and skill.

To your second question NO. Jesus is God's first Son and we are growing into the Sons of God. God made everything from his own DNA.

Genesis 1
1 In the beginning God created heaven and earth.

From what substance did he create everything from nothing? DNA the smallest piece of material with God's fingerprint on every piece of you. Dirt and people share some DNA (we were made from dirt).
To the third question I don't know what you mean by "in his own right"
Fourth question "is Jesus God?" I covered this with the whole DNA thing but technically he would have some of Mary's DNA which would disqualify Him from being YHVH. YHVH is the source of all DNA, we truly are His sons and daughters.

What makes Jesus different in nature from me?

We share DNA but we are not cloned.
Peace sister

DuWayne

[eaglesway]

IMO "proving" the Trinity is just re-issuing a doctrine of man that began 5 centuries after the birth of the ecclesia. A person can believe Jesus is God without believing in the orthodox Trinity doctrine which, again, imo, is an obeisence to the mythology and philosophy of the early apostate Greeks and Romans, forcefully adopted by the Roman Church under threat of death by Constantine who was a devil of major proportions and switched back and forth on his views frequently until it became politically expedient to settle with bishop Anathasius on the Trinity.

We are all about translation and context when it comes to UR, but when it comes to these other Catholic and Protestant doctrinal icons, imo- we get religious as all get out and very comfortable with translations springing from King James and the RCC. To "prove" that Jesus is equal to the Father you have to cut about 25 verses of His words and Pauls words out of the topical context by rationalization and explaining the Lord's words to Him as if He didnt understand what He meant- and as if Paul didnt understand what he was saying- and good thing we got the English Bible to figure it out for them and zip it up in a systematic theology(idol) crowned by anothernon-scriptural "word/label" (Trinity, Modalist, Unitarian, etc) and proceed to pull down the blinders and separate over terms that dont mean the same thing to individuals among the groups who use them.

The Catholic Trinity is the accepted orthodox doctrine of almost all the institutional churches and IMO, it is the "hook" by which they are blinded and bound and gagged into ignoring a "less defined" but "more invigorating and challenging" view that the scriptures present. I began to mistrust the ET doctrine as I became more aware of when and where it started- which was clearly at the same "conventions" of apostates that the Trinity got started at if one studies history.

IMO, You can put Trinity on a list with Rapture, Hell, Eternal Torment, Absolute Free Will, Absolute Predestination, Baptismal Salvation, You Must Speak In Tongues To BE Baptized In The Spirit, The Gifts Of The SPirit Died With The Apostles and a bunch of other one sided, imbalanced religious towers, strongholds and such as make it easy to hide behind concepts of men in division from one another rather than to hash things out using ALL the scriptures and seeing how close we can get to each other :o)

IMO Jesus does not have to be co-equal to the Father to be God any more than a river needs to be an ocean to be water.

[eaglesway]

And lest anyone misunderstand, I don't mind at all if the Trinity concept explains the Deity for someone- And I have known some beautiful believers of every persuasion. In my oppinion, in this age, all one needs to "believe" is  that Jesus was the only begotten Son of God, lived a beautiful sinless life perfected in love, died a substitute for  guilty man and was raised from the dead in the flesh and in the Spirit and is alive Today, to become a "member" of the houehold of faith.

Membership has privileges and responsibilities. IMO Believing in the Trinity(or any other polarizing "label/icon") is not one of them.

[mplsfitter539]

IMO, You can put Trinity on a list with Rapture, Hell, Eternal Torment, Absolute Free Will, Absolute Predestination, Baptismal Salvation, You Must Speak In Tongues To BE Baptized In The Spirit, The Gifts Of The SPirit Died With The Apostles and a bunch of other one sided, imbalanced religious towers, strongholds and such as make it easy to hide behind concepts of men in division from one another rather than to hash things out using ALL the scriptures and seeing how close we can get to each other :o)

IMO Jesus does not have to be co-equal to the Father to be God any more than a river needs to be an ocean to be water.

:iagree: This was the most beautiful post so far in this thread IMHO

[Molly]

well, ok, I don't seem to be making much progress here.  I seem to be the only one who believes Jesus is God, was God, and will be God forever.  [which, I will admit, is a little disappointing.]

If there are others, you could help me out lol.

But, if you want me to prove the trinity, which presupposes three Gods, or, more like it,  God in three persons, then it seems like I would have to start with Jesus.