Trinity Discussion, split from "Something I Just Read"

[CHB]

Because they are speaking those words through the Holy Spirit.

Yes, that is true but no where does it say that the Holy Spirit is a person. Sure the word "he" is used  but wisdom is referred to as "she" and we know wisdom is not a person.

The Holy Spirit is the power of God that he uses to accomplish his purpose in the universe.

John saw the Holy Spirit as a dove. In Genesis it says the spirit moved or fluttered upon the face of the waters. Christ described the Holy Spirit as being like the wind (John 3:8).

Scripture says the Holy Spirit can be poured out (Acts 10:45). Christ said the Holy Spirit  was like water (John 7:38-39).

John said "truly our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ" (1John 1:3).  Why didn't John mention the Holy Spirit here? If three people own and run a business together usually all three names are recognized when addressing the business.

(Rom. 8:17) Paul mentiones that Christians are co heirs of Christ and God but no mention of the Holy Spirit.

(1Cor. 11:3) Paul talkes about the God being the head of Christ but no mention about the Holy Spirit being head of anyone.

(1Tim 2:5) "For there is one God, and ONE MEDIATOR between God and men, the man Jesus Christ". If the Holy Spirit is a person and is co equal with God why isn't it mentioned here. 

CHB

[Molly]

Chb, I see it as the way physicists view light.  Those who only see light as a wave, call it a wave.  Those who only see light as a particle, call it a particle.  How can light be both?  They seem to be contradictory positions.  But, those who see light as both a wave and a particle, call it a wavicle. 

So you are seeing the Holy Spirit through the scriptures that describe him as a force, and I am seeing him through scriptures that describe him as a person.   But, I can see both, really I can.  Yet, it is the Holy Spirit as a person which is my first experience of Him, so that is what I prefer, --to see him as a person.  The Bible gives us both choices.  For the longest time, though, I did not know what I was perceiving, because no one explained this to me.

John said "truly our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ" (1John 1:3).  Why didn't John mention the Holy Spirit here? If three people own and run a business together usually all three names are recognized when addressing the business.

Yes, we have fellowship with the Father and the Son because of  the Holy Spirit.   He doesn't mention it because it is a given.  It is mentioned in many other places in the Bible.

If you want to see it in business terms, you've got the CEO [the Father], the salesman [Jesus], and the guy who does all the work in the background [the Holy Spirit].   I know I'm going to regret saying that.  :laugh:  But, that's the way a small business runs.



11 Dear brothers and sisters, I close my letter with these last words: Be joyful. Grow to maturity. Encourage each other. Live in harmony and peace. Then the God of love and peace will be with you.

12 Greet each other with Christian love. 13 All of God's people here send you their greetings.

14 May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.


--2 Cor 13



"fellowship"

G2842
κοινωνία
koinōnia
koy-nohn-ee'-ah
From G2844; partnership, that is, (literally) participation, or (social) intercourse, or (pecuniary) benefaction: - (to) communicate (-ation), communion, (contri-), distribution, fellowship.

[Molly]

13Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit. 14And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world. 15Whoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwells in him, and he in God.

--1 John 4

[CHB]

If you want to see it in business terms, you've got the CEO [the Father], the salesman [Jesus], and the guy who does all the work in the background [the Holy Spirit].   I know I'm going to regret saying that.    But, that's the way a small business runs.

Molly I can see that. God uses his Holy Spirit to do all of the leg work for Him.

CHB
CHB

[mplsfitter539]

If you want to see it in business terms, you've got the CEO [the Father], the salesman [Jesus], and the guy who does all the work in the background [the Holy Spirit].   I know I'm going to regret saying that.  :laugh:  But, that's the way a small business runs.

Molly if this is your view of the so called trinity than by definition you don't believe in the trinity.  My last post defined the trinity and it does not match what your scenario suggests about the Father having the superior role over the Son and both are over the HS. You don't have to hang on to man made labels when you understand the relationship between the Father, Son, and HS.

Numbers 23:19 states that God is not a man. God was not born, and God certainly did not die, but when people deviate from what the Bible teaches you can come up with the bizarre complexities of trinitarian religious mysteries that contradict logic, common sense and God's Word.

[lomarah]

Because they are speaking those words through the Holy Spirit.

Yes, that is true but no where does it say that the Holy Spirit is a person. Sure the word "he" is used  but wisdom is referred to as "she" and we know wisdom is not a person.

CHB

Hey CHB! I am not someone who knows a whole lot about much of this stuff, but this caught my eye. We know that Love is a Person, right? (God is Love.) We know that the Word of God is a Person right? I also believe that Wisdom is a Person and I desire to know her as fully as the others.  :HeartThrob:

Blessings.

[Molly]

If you want to see it in business terms, you've got the CEO [the Father], the salesman [Jesus], and the guy who does all the work in the background [the Holy Spirit].   I know I'm going to regret saying that.  :laugh:  But, that's the way a small business runs.

Molly if this is your view of the so called trinity than by definition you don't believe in the trinity.  My last post defined the trinity and it does not match what your scenario suggests about the Father having the superior role over the Son and both are over the HS. You don't have to hang on to man made labels when you understand the relationship between the Father, Son, and HS.

Numbers 23:19 states that God is not a man. God was not born, and God certainly did not die, but when people deviate from what the Bible teaches you can come up with the bizarre complexities of trinitarian religious mysteries that contradict logic, common sense and God's Word.

On the other hand, if you have ever started a small business, you know that at first, these three functions are filled by one person, yourself.   So you meet with bankers as CEO in your fancy business suit, and you meet with buyers in another role, as salesman, a little more modestly dressed, jacket and tie,  and then you put on your workclothes and get busy building your product in the backroom.   Three roles, which look very different, performed by one person, and the functions, different, but equally important.

You, as a man,  could die all day long and it wouldn't change the world, but Jesus died once and it did--everything is changed.

And, now, Jesus has left the planet, and we have the dispensation of the Holy Spirit of grace, who is bringing it all home.


Romans 2:29 No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person's praise is not from other people, but from God.


"For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ" (Titus 2:11-13).

[CHB]

Because they are speaking those words through the Holy Spirit.

Yes, that is true but no where does it say that the Holy Spirit is a person. Sure the word "he" is used  but wisdom is referred to as "she" and we know wisdom is not a person.

CHB

Hey CHB! I am not someone who knows a whole lot about much of this stuff, but this caught my eye. We know that Love is a Person, right? (God is Love.) We know that the Word of God is a Person right? I also believe that Wisdom is a Person and I desire to know her as fully as the others.  :HeartThrob:

Blessings.

Hey Lomarah, have you ever seen a person poured out on someone? (Acts 10:45)

Can the foot, and ear speak? And if the foot shall SAY, because I am not the hand, I am not of the body. and if the ear shall SAY, (1Cor. 12:15-16) Of course they can't speak Paul just personified them to make a point.

Also, "let the heaven rejoice, and let the earth be glad...let the field be joyful...then shall all the trees of the wood rejoice" (Psalms 96: 11-12).

(Isaiah 55:12) says "the mountains shall break forth before you into singing, and all the trees shall clap their hands". 
Can the mountains sing, or the trees clap their hands?

I think Christ gave the best description of the Holy Spirit. (John 3:8) "the wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth". So from a physical point of view the wind is the best description of the Holy Spirit and its actions.

CHB

[lomarah]

I was actually just talking about Wisdom and not entering into the trinity discussion... I probably should've just kept my mouth shut then seeing as this is a trinity thread lol. Carry on!

[mplsfitter539]

I think Christ gave the best description of the Holy Spirit. (John 3:8) "the wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth". So from a physical point of view the wind is the best description of the Holy Spirit and its actions.

CHB

CHB this verse also refers to the HS as "it" so along with your previous questions to lomarah, is the Father or Son ever referred to as "it"? Are people "its"

[sheila]

Paul spoke of himself as being poured out like a drink offering in Phillipians 2;17...

a spirit hath not flesh and blood..and we are to know no man after the flesh even Jesus. And yes you do

have an actual spirit Mother..and you will meet her some day..just as you will meet your actual Father.

  were talking about celestal bodies here...spiritual bodies..that's like comparing apple's to oranges

    as I see it.[natural people/terrestial to celestial spiritual beings.]

   flesh gives birth to flesh..spirit to spirit.

[Molly]

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.  John 3


1)This is not referring to the HS as 'it.'

It is referring to the wind as 'it.'



2)  It is not really talking about the HS at all.  It's talking about those born of the Spirit.





Jesus: 5 I tell you the truth, if someone does not experience water and Spirit birth, there's no chance he will make it into God's kingdom. 6 Like from like. Whatever is born from flesh is flesh; whatever is born from Spirit is spirit. 7 Don't be shocked by My words, but I tell you the truth. Even you, an educated and respected man among your people, must be reborn by the Spirit to enter the kingdom of God. 8 The wind blows all around us as if it has a will of its own; we feel and hear it, but we do not understand where it has come from or where it will end up. Life in the Spirit is as if it were in the wind of God.

Nicodemus: 9 I still do not understand how this can be.

Jesus: 10 Your responsibility is to instruct Israel in matters of faith, but you do not comprehend the necessity of life in the Spirit? 11 I tell you the truth: we speak about the things we know, and we give evidence about the things we have seen, and you choose to reject the truth of our witness. 12 If you do not believe when I talk to you about ordinary, earthly realities, then heavenly realities will certainly elude you.

[mplsfitter539]

 The actual Greek "The Spirit the Holy" proves the Holy Spirit is not a person. The Bible calls the Holy Spirit an "it".                John 1:32;      1 Pet 1:11

John 1
32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.

1 Peter 1:11

King James Version (KJV)

11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

DuWayne

[Molly]

10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, 11 trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of the Messiah and the glories that would follow.

--1 Peter 1 [NIV]


:dunno:

[micah7:9]

After all that I have read in this thread, perhaps hell is a real place of eternal torment. :doh: :scratchhead:

[Molly]

I actually love this passage.  It's so mystical.  The thought of the prophets receiving this word from the Holy Spirit and wondering and trying to explore to whom it applied--just gives me chills.



10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, 11 trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of the Messiah and the glories that would follow. 12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things.
1 Peter 1



All the rich of the earth will feast and worship;
    all who go down to the dust will kneel before him—
    those who cannot keep themselves alive.
30 Posterity will serve him;
    future generations will be told about the Lord.
31 They will proclaim his righteousness,
    declaring to a people yet unborn:
    He has done it!

--Psa 22

[mplsfitter539]

Ok Molly you win, it is a he which would make it a he-it as apposed to she-it.  :LH:

[Molly]

Ok Molly you win, it is a he which would make it a he-it as apposed to she-it.  :LH:

Somehow that doesn't sound like you are really conceding anything.  :gmad:


:laugh:

[rosered]

Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

  your posts all reminded me of this verse    the holy thing  is  concieved of the Holy Ghost /Spirit

Mat 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

[rosered]

the list of translations New International Version (©2011)
The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.
New Living Translation (©2007)
The angel replied, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the baby to be born will be holy, and he will be called the Son of God.

English Standard Version (©2001)
And the angel answered her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
The angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009)
The angel replied to her:" The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. Therefore, the holy One to be born will be called the Son of God.

International Standard Version (©2012)
The angel answered her, "The Holy Spirit will come over you, and the power of the Most High will surround you. Therefore, the child will be holy and will be called the Son of God.

NET Bible (©2006)
The angel replied, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. Therefore the child to be born will be holy; he will be called the Son of God.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
The Angel answered and said to her, "The Spirit of Holiness shall come and the power of The Highest shall rest upon you, therefore he who shall be begotten in you shall be holy and he shall be called the Son of God."

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
The angel answered her, "The Holy Spirit will come to you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. Therefore, the holy child developing inside you will be called the Son of God.

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon you, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow you: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of you shall be called the Son of God.

American King James Version
And the angel answered and said to her, The Holy Ghost shall come on you, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow you: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of you shall be called the Son of God.

American Standard Version
And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Most High shall overshadow thee: wherefore also the holy thing which is begotten shall be called the Son of God.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And the angel answering, said to her: The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the most High shall overshadow thee. And therefore also the Holy which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Darby Bible Translation
And the angel answering said to her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and power of the Highest overshadow thee, wherefore the holy thing also which shall be born shall be called Son of God.

English Revised Version
And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Most High shall overshadow thee: wherefore also that which is to be born shall be called holy, the Son of God.

Webster's Bible Translation
And the angel answered and said to her, The Holy Spirit will come upon thee, and the power of the Highest will overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Weymouth New Testament
The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for this reason your holy offspring will be called 'the Son of God.'

World English Bible
The angel answered her, "The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. Therefore also the holy one who is born from you will be called the Son of God.

Young's Literal Translation
And the messenger answering said to her, 'The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee, therefore also the holy-begotten thing shall be called Son of God;

[sheila]

  I can't beleive this..but...I just looked up thing in my dictionary.... :Chinscratch:

     from the rootword. thingian; to reconcile..conciliate..judiciary assembly, court

     who would of thought that?

[Molly]

wow!

[Molly]

Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

  your posts all reminded me of this verse    the holy thing  is  concieved of the Holy Ghost /Spirit

Mat 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

Rosered, the trinity is in this verse [Luke 1:35]

Father [power of the Highest]

Holy Spirit

Son [that holy thing]

[Ross]

Just a little observation.
We are made in His image.
When I share with my earthly dad we are one in spirit.
My dad is older than me.
Christ is the first-born of all creation.
In Christ is ALL wisdom. And He comes to please His Father.

[mplsfitter539]

If the Father, Son and HS are one then the God family is closed only consisting of 3. In my understanding we are brothers of Christ which makes us part of God's family. That would mean that IMO the family is growing all the time but your trinity is a stumbling block because it narrows Gods family to only 3. The trinity is a limiting factor and a stumbling block. Would God be the author of a stumbling block?


DuWayne