Argument for free will inferred from two verses in the NT (calling Jesus 'Lord')

[CrossoverManiac]

1 Cor. 12:3  Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

Matt 7:21  Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

According to those that believe in free will, those that say "Lord Lord" but did not enter into Heaven used to be saved but lose their salvation because they could not have called Jesus 'Lord' except by the Holy Spirit.  How can this be addressed?

Edit: I think I have an answer but I want to ask you first.  My answer is that God works through the unsaved and even sends his Spirit to them.  Caiaphas, even as he was plotting to murder Jesus, was prophecizing  (John 11:49-53).  Judas Iscariot had a ministry like the apostles. Yet, according to Jesus, He never loss any of the ones the Father gave him, which infers that Judas was never one of the ones given to Him by the Father.

What do you think?

[ded2daworld]

IMO. John the Bptist had the Holy spirit in him since before birth(as stated in the scriptures and before Jesus birth) While Jesus was on the earth, I don't believe anyone else received the holy spirit until the day of pentecost, when even the apostles were radically changed.

The fact that the Holy Spirit "uses" people to do his will does not necessarily mean that the Holy Spirit is living and residing in them.

All through the old testament, God, Holy Spirit, used good and evil people to attain his ends.

[CHB]

1 Cor. 12:3  Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

Matt 7:21  Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

According to those that believe in free will, those that say "Lord Lord" but did not enter into Heaven used to be saved but lose their salvation because they could not have called Jesus 'Lord' except by the Holy Spirit.  How can this be addressed?

Edit: I think I have an answer but I want to ask you first.  My answer is that God works through the unsaved and even sends his Spirit to them.  Caiaphas, even as he was plotting to murder Jesus, was prophecizing  (John 11:49-53).  Judas Iscariot had a ministry like the apostles. Yet, according to Jesus, He never loss any of the ones the Father gave him, which infers that Judas was never one of the ones given to Him by the Father.

What do you think?

Keep in mind as to when it was written and who Jesus was talking to.

(1Cor.) was after the cross. Matt. was before. Law still existed before Christ was crucified. Works and grace. All of it though was according to God's plan.

CHB

[sheila]

well,as all men have been partakers of the tokogae....the good in them is of God..for Jesus said..only God is Good

   the good samaritian..may not know what he worships..but any goodness in him..such as the act of compaassion

   is of God.   Eternal life is knowing the Father and the son.   He does not know them because He did not call them

  men may have called them. Paul testifies of fals-apostles robbers and theives..who preaach out of contention and cause

divisions,sects.  Many are called but few are chosen...James 3;14 ;16............ jealousy and contentiousness in your heart,

  Yet God said...'I will make you jealous by a nation that is not a nation" to Israel...and thus Judaizers and teachers

of the law/circumcision..come and caused trouble with Paul and his...super-fine apostles..'certain men'  Jude also spoke

of these 'certain men'   natural men..or the carnal minded ministries we see out there..that have not the spirit..but

make the natural churches..that do not understand the spiritual..and twist things.   their a dime a dozen out there....

   they know nothing..they understand nothing...they mimic and mime the scriptures and the gospel..they are blind

leading the blind...always learning..but never coming to the accurate knowledge.  IT TAKES THE SPIRIT...

to know and understand the things of God.  There will be aa lot of people at the resurrection that thought they were

doing God a service..only to find out different...but,He will give them a new spirit in their heaart..a new mind and new

celestial body...then they will hear wht they had not heard before..and see what they had not seen.......He will seperate

   the baloney from His truth,cleanse and purify..that they make an offering of Praise to His name..instaed of Blasphemy

   the spirit of presumptousness is the same as withch craft[Babylons majic spell] and she has called many

[TomH]

1 Cor. 12:3  Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

Matt 7:21  Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

According to those that believe in free will, those that say "Lord Lord" but did not enter into Heaven used to be saved but lose their salvation because they could not have called Jesus 'Lord' except by the Holy Spirit.  How can this be addressed?

Edit: I think I have an answer but I want to ask you first.  My answer is that God works through the unsaved and even sends his Spirit to them.  Caiaphas, even as he was plotting to murder Jesus, was prophecizing  (John 11:49-53).  Judas Iscariot had a ministry like the apostles. Yet, according to Jesus, He never loss any of the ones the Father gave him, which infers that Judas was never one of the ones given to Him by the Father.

What do you think?

I no longer believe in free will. I think only God has free will. I think the rest of us are compelled to act by unseen spiritual forces. It is a cause and effect thing.

http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheProblemOfEvil/evil013.html

[eaglesway]

1 Cor. 12:3  Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

Matt 7:21  Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

According to those that believe in free will, those that say "Lord Lord" but did not enter into Heaven used to be saved but lose their salvation because they could not have called Jesus 'Lord' except by the Holy Spirit.  How can this be addressed?

Edit: I think I have an answer but I want to ask you first.  My answer is that God works through the unsaved and even sends his Spirit to them.  Caiaphas, even as he was plotting to murder Jesus, was prophecizing  (John 11:49-53).  Judas Iscariot had a ministry like the apostles. Yet, according to Jesus, He never loss any of the ones the Father gave him, which infers that Judas was never one of the ones given to Him by the Father.

What do you think?

IMO "Losing salvation" is a religious idea injected thru generations of ET frame of reference theology.

What Jesus says never refers to losing salvation. It says, "I never knew you".

"I never knew you", in my opinion, means, "I never had continual intimate fellowship with you- you did not abide in me".

Remember in John 15 Jesus says He is the vine and we are the branches, if we do not abide(engage in fellowship with Him on an ongoing basis to seek His face and dwell in His presence and love- we begin to dry up, eventually becoming deadwood.) we go into the fire to be burned.

This is terrifying terminology, and unlike many in UR(sorry :o) I believe it is meant to be. We just don t want to be placed in the fire for correction and reformation when we can reap such amazing benefits in our soul and our present life by continuing to press into Jesus. "If you continue in my word you shall kno the truth and the truth shall set you free."



The end of all this is not that we lose our salvation. It is that we enter kolassis/correction.

For example, 1 Cor 3:10-17 talks about gold, silver, precious stone versus wood hay and stubble. If a man builds junk on the foundation, the DAY will reveal it. The DAY is the fire. It burns up the darkness, the wood hay etc- but it clearly says that the person themselves shall be saved but they will lose their reward.

[TomH]

1 Cor. 12:3  Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

Matt 7:21  Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

According to those that believe in free will, those that say "Lord Lord" but did not enter into Heaven used to be saved but lose their salvation because they could not have called Jesus 'Lord' except by the Holy Spirit.  How can this be addressed?

Edit: I think I have an answer but I want to ask you first.  My answer is that God works through the unsaved and even sends his Spirit to them.  Caiaphas, even as he was plotting to murder Jesus, was prophecizing  (John 11:49-53).  Judas Iscariot had a ministry like the apostles. Yet, according to Jesus, He never loss any of the ones the Father gave him, which infers that Judas was never one of the ones given to Him by the Father.

What do you think?

IMO "Losing salvation" is a religious idea injected thru generations of ET frame of reference theology.

What Jesus says never refers to losing salvation. It says, "I never knew you".

"I never knew you", in my opinion, means, "I never had continual intimate fellowship with you- you did not abide in me".

Remember in John 15 Jesus says He is the vine and we are the branches, if we do not abide(engage in fellowship with Him on an ongoing basis to seek His face and dwell in His presence and love- we begin to dry up, eventually becoming deadwood.) we go into the fire to be burned.

This is terrifying terminology, and unlike many in UR(sorry :o) I believe it is meant to be. We just don t want to be placed in the fire for correction and reformation when we can reap such amazing benefits in our soul and our present life by continuing to press into Jesus. "If you continue in my word you shall kno the truth and the truth shall set you free."



The end of all this is not that we lose our salvation. It is that we enter kolassis/correction.

For example, 1 Cor 3:10-17 talks about gold, silver, precious stone versus wood hay and stubble. If a man builds junk on the foundation, the DAY will reveal it. The DAY is the fire. It burns up the darkness, the wood hay etc- but it clearly says that the person themselves shall be saved but they will lose their reward.

I agree. Correction can come hard for us now because sometimes we have to swallow our pride, but we are sealed for deliverance.

"All scripture is inspired by God, and is beneficial for teaching, for exposure, for correction, for discipline in righteousness, that the man of God may be equipped, fitted out for every good act." (2 Timothy 3:16,17)

"Nothing, consequently, is now condemnation to those in Christ Jesus. Not according to flesh are they walking, but according to spirit, for the spirit's law of life in Christ Jesus frees you from the law of sin and death." (Romans 8:1,2)

"For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor messengers, nor sovereignties, nor the present, nor what is impending, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus, our Lord." (Romans 8:38,39)

"in Him in Whom our lot was cast also, being designated beforehand according to the purpose of the One Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will, that we should be for the laud of His glory, who are pre-expectant in the Christ. In Whom you also -- on hearing the word of truth, the evangel of your salvation -- in Whom on believing also, you are sealed with the holy spirit of promise (which is an earnest of the enjoyment of our allotment, to the deliverance of that which has been procured) for the laud of His glory!" (Ephesians 1:11-14)

"And do not be causing sorrow to the holy spirit of God by which you are sealed for the day of deliverance." (Ephesians 4:30)

http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheProblemOfEvil/evil023.html

[micah7:9]

Should one believe in free will, one accepts that he has a free will (without any cause) and it would be impossible for that one to believe that The Lord is the all in all. 
Man is given free choice, choice is choosing an option from a caused circumstance and The Lord is the creator of all caused circumstances.
Col. 1: 16 for in Him is all created, that in the heavens and that on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or sovereignties, or authorities, all is created through Him and for Him,
17 and He is before all, and all has its cohesion in Him.

[Eduard]

That verse does not imply free will in any way. There are other verses that state clearly that God is in control of our fate, not man.

[micah7:9]

That verse does not imply free will in any way. There are other verses that state clearly that God is in control of our fate, not man.

I agree, the verse was given not to imply that man has free will, just the opposite. :dsunny:

[eaglesway]

I cannot see either verse as proof text for either pole of the discussion.

[jbertonbounds]

Sorry, I don't see it either.

[micah7:9]

Sorry. :dsunny:

[micah7:9]

I'm searching can anyone show me in the Bible where man was given or received  free will? I feel it must have been in Genesis, somewhere in chapter 2. Thank you.

[eaglesway]

Joshua 24:15
And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

Deut 30:19
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

2 Samuel 24:12
Go and say unto David, Thus saith the Lord, I offer thee three things; choose thee one of them, that I may do it unto thee.

2 Chronicles 30:8
Now be ye not stiffnecked, as your fathers were, but yield yourselves unto the Lord, and enter into his sanctuary, which he hath sanctified for ever: and serve the Lord your God, that the fierceness of his wrath may turn away from you.

Isaiah 65:12
Therefore will I number you to the sword, and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter: because when I called, ye did not answer; when I spake, ye did not hear; but did evil before mine eyes, and did choose that wherein I delighted not

Romans 6:16
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Romans 12:1-3
I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Revelation 3:20
Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Hebrews 4:1-13 Therefore, let us fear if, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you may seem to have come short of it. For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also; but the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard. For we who have believed enter that rest, just as He has said,


"As I swore in My wrath,
They shall not enter My rest,"

although His works were finished from the foundation of the world. For He has said somewhere concerning the seventh day: "And God rested on the seventh day from all His works";  and again in this passage, "They shall not enter My rest." Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience, He again fixes a certain day, "Today," saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before,


"Today if you hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts."

For if Joshua had given them rest, He would not have spoken of another day after that. So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His. Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience. For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.


Acts 17:26-31 He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation,  that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;  for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, 'For we also are His children.' Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man. Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."

While I do not believe Arminianism or Calvinism, or any other extreme version of the "free-will version sovereignity" debate express anywhere near accurately the complicated issue of man's will versus God's will- or the measure in which God allows man to choose, to yield, or not to yield and to hold man accountable for it in a measure as well, there are some verses that an honest person can read as God having given man a stewardship over his will, his responses to the grace of God and the temporal consequences of those decisions- both as individuals and communites of people, such as cities, nations and local churches. The way I see it is, man is neither totally "free" in his will, nor is he totally "free" from his will and the consequences of how he excercizes it.

Only God knows the how and why of it all. :o)

Romans 12:32-36
For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became His counselor? Or who has first given to Him that it might be paid back to him again? For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.

[micah7:9]

Now we have verses for the cause for man's choice His Will. Thank you.

[eaglesway]

Yes Micah, I absolutely agree with that. God is the cause for all things. Whatever is allowed is allowed by Him. Whatever is restrained is restrained by Him. This is how we get to know Him.

[micah7:9]

Thanks, but He does not allow, He does it all.  :dsunny:

[eaglesway]

yes, I kno how you feel about that, but IMO He allows much, and grace includes the freedom to choose the wrong thing and still be loved, and so we grow as disciples, and sons, or not.   :Peace2:

[micah7:9]

 :iagree: :HeartThrob: :dsunny:

[jbertonbounds]

yes, I kno how you feel about that, but IMO He allows much, and grace includes the freedom to choose the wrong thing and still be loved, and so we grow as disciples, and sons, or not.   :Peace2:

Never quite thought of it that way. :thumbsup:

[eaglesway]

I think that's why one thing we all understand is that of all things, grace is most beautiful :o)

[Ken]

Hello CrossoverManiac,

We most certainly do have "free will", as God gives us the choice of whether we want to be in the Kingdom of God - or not:

http://ernestlmartin.com/kingdomofgod-firstresurrection.htm

Either way, we are all still "saved".

I hope this helps.

Ken

(http://ernestlmartin.com/images/kogpng.png)

[CHB]

So called "free will" is nothing but works.

CHB

[eaglesway]

We get hung up on terminology that doesnt even mean the same things in our separate minds when we hear them or say them. I do not believe in a "totally free will". God is intervening and moderating in evry life evil or good. He is using our actions in accordance with His grand design in ways to great for us to fathom. He is the one "who causes all things to work in accordance with the counsel of His will" However, I do not believe God "programs" this. His way is, imo, higher than that. It is clear to me from the scriptures that God has given us a qualified freedom, a stewardship lets say- over our lives, gifts, time, etc. It is a growth in discipleship and sonship responsibility in which we must be engaged and accountable. Through it He is leading us into an even greater freedom, the glorious freedom of the children of God(into which the entire creation shall be introduced and enjoy in the consummation when God is all in all).

The way I see it- it will not be until "the end "(1 cor 15:28) that all will be "free"(Romans 8:18-25). Their wills totally in harmony with the I AM and therefore both TOTALLY SUBMITTED AND TOTALLY FREE AT THE SAME TIME.

I think its a shame that religious button pushing makes it so difficult to discuss the subject matter, because it is brilliant material and continually illuminating- but, so be it.