Trinity Discussion, split from "Something I Just Read"

[Molly]

*I split this off into its own thread, and modified the thread title in each post.  As always, but especially in this topic, let's remember to post "As I understand", "In my opinion", "I believe", etc.  What's my understanding of scripture today, God may show me something different and change my mind tomorrow.  :) 

From the very first paragraph, "A loving God, it is claimed would not send anyone to eternal damnation Thus, those sent to hell "......If the writer can use the word "hell" the entire paper is questionable.  :HeartThrob: :dsunny:

Perfect. If one small detail is wrong than it changes everything. How can someone who proclaims the trinity be like minded with anyone who excepts the death of the Christ. Its a small detail to the one proclaiming it but to me they worship another Jesus than I do. Making a pagan doctrine dating to the earliest religions into a "Christian" doctrine is just a clever ploy to dupe the masses.

whoa whoa whoa...I believe in the Trinity and I do not consider myself a pagan or the duped masses.   :laugh:

  But, this might be something we're not allowed to speak about.  I can't remember.




4Who has ascended up into heaven, or descended? who has gathered the wind in his fists? who has bound the waters in a garment? who has established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if you can tell? 5Every word of God is pure: he is a shield to them that put their trust in him. ...

--Prov 30




There are three in this verse.  Let's let Jesus speak for himself:



16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me.

--Isa 48

[mplsfitter539]

Sorry Molly I didn't know that we are not suppose to talk about it here. As much as I would like to find out why people believe in it instead of the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit of God. Maybe a poll would be a good idea because for me I thought we were suppose to be like minded but I can see that there are few sticking points even in our small crowd. Like I said if people get one part of something wrong they have it all wrong.

Galatians 5
9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.

[jabcat]

It can be discussed.  We opened it up when we opened up the "free will" discussion.  So far, no major battles.  :)

It definitely is encouraged to do just what you did though, state "I believe.."   

[jabcat]

Like I said if people get one part of something wrong they have it all wrong.

Then we're all sunk.   :help:    :laugh:

"a little leaven leavens the whole lump"

IMO, that doesn't mean one must have every aspect of every doctrine correct.  I believe it means things are definitely affected, but not necessarily ruined.  Whether leavened, or unleavened, bread is still bread.  Don't get me wrong, I believe we DEFINITELY should contend for sound doctrine - as much as we can understand - at the time.  But to say for instance, if someone believes in the Trinity, that they're wrong about everything else about God, I don't believe is correct.  I believe one can believe in the Trinity, and still believe Jesus is God's Son and that He died and rose again for our sins, which according to scripture = spiritually reborn.  I also believe one can not believe in the "classical view" of the Trinity, and still believe Jesus is God's Son and that He died and rose again for our sins, which according to scripture = spiritually reborn.  The "litmus test" for salvation is not whether the Holy Spirit is a Person or God's Breath/Spirit - it's whether one believes Jesus is God's Son and that He rose from the dead.  Rom. 10:9, Act 16:31

I personally believe the "another God" or "another Jesus" issue was Paul talking about people preaching another way to salvation other than through the grace of Jesus.  I haven't looked that up, so if that's not the correct context, please let me know.  :)

"In honor, preferring one another".  Blessings, James.

[Molly]

The highest angels of heaven cry 'Holy"  in sets of three.  A nice meditation.




And one cried to another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory. Isa 6:3




Revelation 4:8 Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around, even under its wings. Day and night they never stop saying: "'Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty,' who was, and is, and is to come."






John 1:16, "And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace."

[ded2daworld]

I agree with Jabcat. After 40+ years being a christian, I still don't know for sure if it is Father, Son and Holy Spirit or just Father and Son and the Father, besides being spirit also has a spirit (that is Holy as He is)
There is even the possibility that just as we are Body, mind, and spirit yet one. That God is also Body(Christ) mind(the Father) and Spirit (the Holy Spiri) as one personal being since we were created in God's image. So God maybe 1, 2, or 3 personalities in the one true God. Nobody knows for certain and the uniqueness of the God being precludes anyone being "right" or "wrong". With that, there is no justification for judging another's belief about 1,2 or 3 in the "One True God" :Peace2:

[Molly]

"But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me." (John 15:26)

"But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you." (John 14:26)

"However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth...He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you." (John 16:13-14)

"And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever -- the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you." (John 14:16-17)

"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come." (John 16:13)

"But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:..." (John 15:26)

"When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him." (Matthew 3:16)


John 1:32 Then John gave this testimony: "I saw the Spirit come down from heaven as a dove and remain on him.


1 John 5:6 .... And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.


"I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you. A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me." (John 14:18-19)

[Molly]

"Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God." (Romans 8:26-27)



Another translation:



26 And the Holy Spirit helps us in our weakness. For example, we don't know what God wants us to pray for. But the Holy Spirit prays for us with groanings that cannot be expressed in words. 27 And the Father who knows all hearts, knows what the Spirit is saying, for the Spirit pleads for us believers in harmony with God's own will.

---Rom 8



[Romans 8, one of the most beautiful chapters in the Bible, imo]

[jedi1989]

I think this page is quite interesting, it explains why scriptures state that we would be "Gods"-John 10:34 because our concepts of "God" may be different from what the truth is.

http://www.godsplanforall.com/7foundationalbiblicaltruths
http://www.godsplanforall.com/antichristchristianity

[jedi1989]

I agree with Jabcat. After 40+ years being a christian, I still don't know for sure if it is Father, Son and Holy Spirit or just Father and Son and the Father, besides being spirit also has a spirit (that is Holy as He is)
There is even the possibility that just as we are Body, mind, and spirit yet one. That God is also Body(Christ) mind(the Father) and Spirit (the Holy Spiri) as one personal being since we were created in God's image. So God maybe 1, 2, or 3 personalities in the one true God. Nobody knows for certain and the uniqueness of the God being precludes anyone being "right" or "wrong". With that, there is no justification for judging another's belief about 1,2 or 3 in the "One True God" :Peace2:

I think it is okay to judge beliefs or else we will be forever learning and never coming to the truth. We need to understand that is the concepts/doctrines/beliefs that are being judged rather than the person, have a open mind and willing heart and put all we have on the table to discuss and grow together.
I think once we stop placing our self-worth upon our beliefs and realize that our self-worth must come from the fact that we are Jehovah's most beloved creations, we will grow much faster.

[ded2daworld]

IMO, there's a difference between knowing the "Truth" Jesus)
and forever learning about him. (Which often entails multiple doctrinal views.

[redhotmagma]

IMO God is an infinity. Man tries to label and categorize to fit into their finite mind.

[Molly]

22 Jesus went through the towns and villages, teaching as he went, always pressing on toward Jerusalem. 23 Someone asked him, "Lord, will only a few be saved?"

He replied, 24 "Work hard to enter the narrow door to God's Kingdom, for many will try to enter but will fail. 25 When the master of the house has locked the door, it will be too late. You will stand outside knocking and pleading, 'Lord, open the door for us!' But he will reply, 'I don't know you or where you come from.' 26 Then you will say, 'But we ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.' 27 And he will reply, 'I tell you, I don't know you or where you come from. Get away from me, all you who do evil.'

28 "There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, for you will see Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and all the prophets in the Kingdom of God, but you will be thrown out. 29 And people will come from all over the world—from east and west, north and south—to take their places in the Kingdom of God. 30 And note this: Some who seem least important now will be the greatest then, and some who are the greatest now will be least important then."

--Luke 13



It's not about getting doctrine right, so much as getting relationship with him right.   I wish I knew how better to say it, what this means to me.   But, he has done everything and given us everything we need to come close to him and stay close,  not just once  or twice a week, but every day and hour of our lives, --all that is needed is our attention, as we press on towards Jerusalem with him.   



"And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever -- the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you." (John 14:16-17)

"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come." (John 16:13)

[Molly]

The Parakletos--John 14:16



And, I will pray the Father, and he will give you


"another"

G243
ἄλλος
allos
al'-los
A primary word; "else", that is, different (in many applications): - more, one (another), (an-, some an-) other (-s, -wise).



"Helper"

G3875
παράκλητος
paraklētos
par-ak'-lay-tos

An intercessor, consoler: - advocate, comforter.

[OneThing]

It's not about getting doctrine right, so much as getting relationship with him right.   I wish I knew how better to say it, what this means to me.   But, he has done everything and given us everything we need to come close to him and stay close,  not just once  or twice a week, but every day and hour of our lives, --all that is needed is our attention, as we press on towards Jerusalem with him.   
=============================================

thanks Molly

re: relationship with Him... He has done everything and given us everything we need

Thanks, really confirms, reiterates what I read earlier this morning from T Austin-Sparks' book:
THE ON-HIGH CALLING

a few excerpts--
based on Col 1:19 God in all His fullness was pleased to live in Christ  (NLT)

"Do not take these as just words.  Do understand that in every fragment there is this truth:  In this dispensation in whichy you and I are now living God has come to us in all His fullness.  There is no more to be added.  In His Son we have the absolute fullness of God, and it is out of that fullness that He speaks to us in His Son.  God has only one Son in that sense --His only-begotten Son, which means that there is no one to come after Him.  Therefore, God's last word is in His Son.

... To come into touch with the Lord Jesus is more than coming into touch with a teaching:  it is coming into touch with a living, active Person.  'It is God with whom we have to do.'  It is a glorious thing to come into touch with God in Christ  ...  it is not a teaching, a philosophy; it is a living, positive powerful Person.

... seeing one thing -- how superior is Jesus Christ to all else, and how superior is the dispensation into which we have come, and how superior are all the resources at our disposal to all that ever was before!"
=====

also thanks for giving Scriptural evidence of the greatest resource... John 14:16-17 and John 16:13   the Comforter, Spirit of truth to guide us into ALL truth

[rosered]

I personally believe the "another God" or "another Jesus" issue was Paul talking about people preaching another way to salvation other than through the grace of Jesus.  I haven't looked that up, so if that's not the correct context, please let me know.  :)

Totally agree with you Bro James !
the simplicty in Christ   ,  the cross  of Jesus Christ  it  is   the Power of God , this everlasting gospel /good news   all have heard and  looked into 



1Cr 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

2Cr 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ

  the  TAV    ,  the mark or  sign , seal of God on our forheads    the Cross !

  until its a personal      ''Jesus died for my sins   at that Cross ''!!!   
my own sins put him to death !! and not   eveyone else , the Jews  or   anyone  but  me !!

that repentance    and change of mind /heart  and way of thinking and doing things , as you think  so are you doing   !!, by faith in Him  , in that death   we read   the darkness covered the land [Body of Christ ]    at the cross on the 9th hour   
  but its was His death that New LIFE sprung forth  !  unless a seed falls to the ground and dies  , new growth will not come forth , spring forth 


  but its a song I started singing   from memory
  At the cross at the cross when I first saw the Light and the burden of my heart rolled away  , it was there by faith I recieved my sight and now I am happy all the  DAY

  The Day  , the Light shined forth out of darkness , the tomb of our hearts !!
  when you realize how simple it really is
  I was doing a study on the letter TAV 

   the Cross the   mark   , Jesus gave up His soul   , it was exceedingly sorrowful  even unto death

here  is in  a part of this  article



  (Tav) is a common Hebrew word that denotes a mark, sign, or cross. In the ancient Hebrew script, it was written alternately as  or  the latter being identical to the traditional form of the Cross of Christ, as seen in the digital scan of Ben-Yehuda's Pocket Hebrew Dictionary  above.) It is the origin of the corresponding Greek Tau and Latin T. God displayed its primary symbolic meaning in two Alphabetic Verses:


AV Ps 25:21 Let integrity (tom) and uprightness preserve me; for I wait on thee.
AV Lam 4:22 The punishment of thine iniquity is accomplished (tamam), O daughter of Zion; he will no more carry thee away into captivity: he will visit thine iniquity, O daughter of Edom; he will discover thy sins.
This is the glorious wonder of the Bible Wheel; it is self-evidently perfect from beginning to end. These Tav KeyWords describe the Twenty-Second Spoke, the Final Spoke that completes and seals the entire Bible. God placed them in the Alphabetic Verses as signs that prophetically anticipated the flawless integrity of His Bible as a whole! Yet there is more, so much more. In the rabbinic tradition, Tav is called the Seal of Truth (Bible Wheel book pg 37), and its form as a cross returns us to the central theme of all Scripture, the Gospel of Christ who sealed our salvation and bought us by the blood of His Cross!



The ancient Rabbinical tradition calls Tav the Seal of God, the Seal of Truth, and the Seal of Creation. Rabbi Ginsburgh, in his article on Tav , identifies the seal as truth (אמת, emet), spelt with the first, middle, and last of the sacred letters. He then says:

The last letter or seal of the word emet, "truth," itself - the seal of G-d's seal - is the letter tav, simple faith, the conclusion and culmination of all twenty-two forces - letters - active in Creation.


    God bless ! in Jesus peace
 

[rosered]

amen Molly and One Thing  :iagree:

[Molly]

Amen rosered and One Thing!


6 Jesus saith unto him, I Am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

--John 14



The first part of verse 6 packs a lot of information into a few words.  First Jesus identifies himself as the tetragrammaton of the Old Testament, the memorial name of God that means I AM THAT I AM.

14 And God said unto Moses, I Am That I Am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you. 



Then he proceeds to define himself with three names--The Way,  The Truth, and The Life.



The Way is a path, a road, a highway that we are to walk on, and we walk in it by following the steps of Jesus.

He shows us The Way.

The LORD is my Shepherd.

He leadeth me into paths of righteousness for his name's sake. Psa 23



He demonstrates The Way with his life.

Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.  Mat 16:24



He is The Way.

7 And the parched ground shall become a pool, and the thirsty land springs of water: in the habitation of dragons, where each lay, shall be grass with reeds and rushes.

8 And an highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The Way of Holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for those: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein.

9 No lion shall be there, nor any ravenous beast shall go up thereon, it shall not be found there; but the redeemed shall walk there:

10 And the ransomed of the Lord shall return, and come to Zion with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads: they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away.

--Isa 35



51 And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.

--John 1



There are two other names in this sentence:  The Truth and the Life

The truth we have already identified as the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of truth.

The Life is God the Father--

But the LORD is the true God; he is the living God, the eternal King.  [Jer 10:10]

He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive." [Lk 20:38]



Holy, Holy, Holy   :bowing:

[rosered]

  Beautiful Molly!     :dsunny: , just Beautiful ! :HeartThrob:

[OneThing]

Molly, I find your perspective on "I AM the way, the truth, and the life..."  very challenging -- worthy of more study, prayer, reflection.  Thanks so much for always sharing your POV, so reverently, graciously, and Scrupturally supported.  Many times, the Scriptures you share are the very Scriptures that help me connect more dots in my own studies/projects.

[Molly]

 :HeartThrob:

[Molly]

Eric Ludy--The Gospel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPIOkdNL-QQ&feature=pyv




37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

--Rom 8

[Graph1159]

Hey everyone,
I'm not sure what I believe about the Trinity doctrine versus other depictions of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit that also recognize Jesus as the only begotten Son of God. If the Trinity depiction is true, how does Jesus Christ subject Himself to God in 1 Corinthians 15:28?

Thank you for your help,
Samuel

[Molly]

God has names for himself after the functions he performs or his characteristics, so in studying the names of God we see the Hebrew equivalent of LORD God Almighty, The Lord that Heals, The Lord our Righteousness, The Lord who sanctifies you, The Everlasting God, The Most High God,  and so forth.

Of all these names, his favorite name is Y'shua, the name we call Jesus, which means Yah's Salvation.

Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name, 
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

--Phil 2:9


When God is all in all, the function of Y'shua will be finished, because all will be saved and restored.

24 After that the end will come, when he will turn the Kingdom over to God the Father, having destroyed every ruler and authority and power. 25 For Christ must reign until he humbles all his enemies beneath his feet. 26 And the last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For the Scriptures say, "God has put all things under his authority." (Of course, when it says "all things are under his authority," that does not include God himself, who gave Christ his authority.) 28 Then, when all things are under his authority, the Son will put himself under God's authority, so that God, who gave his Son authority over all things, will be utterly supreme over everything everywhere..  1 Cor 15


Now I could say, that in my opinion, we are present in the above passage under the title of Christ, meaning the anointed one, as co-inheritors with Y'shua,  because this passage is looking ages [more than one age] into the future.  It is describing something that we can hardly imagine, a total restoration of God's creation, with not even one tiny spec of it outside the mind of Christ.  Or, to put it another way, the mind of Christ will imbue and permeate all things equally and completely.  The function of the Son who is Yah's Salvation will be completed.  God will be all in all.  But, I won't say that because I'm not able to explain it very well yet.   So,  I'll just keep it to myself for now.

[Graph1159]

Hi Molly,
Thank you for your reply.

Now I could say, that in my opinion, we are present in the above passage under the title of Christ, meaning the anointed one, as co-inheritors with Y'shua,  because this passage is looking ages [more than one age] into the future.

This brings to mind Revelations 22, where we see the saints reigning for the ages of the ages.