Jesus and the New Covenant Replacing the Old

[LaneLester]

In one of Gary's articles he says the New Covenant replaced, rather than aded to, the Old. That seemed fine to me.

In the same or another article he exhorts the reader to seek the Holy Spirit's guidance in Bible study. I liked that, too.

Inspired to get at it, I downloaded Weymouth's NT and started reading what Jesus had to say. When I hit Matthew 5:17-19 I hit a snag:
"Do not for a moment suppose that I have come to abrogate the Law or the Prophets:I have not come to abrogate them but to give them their completion. Solemnly I tell you that until Heaven and earth pass away, not one iota or smallest detail will pass away from the Law until all has taken place. Whoever therefore breaks one of these least commandments and teaches others to break them, will be called the least in the Kingdom of the Heavens; but whoever practises them and teaches them, he will be acknowledged as great in the Kingdom of the Heavens."

I confess that Jesus' words are often confusing to me. Can you help me see why the above doesn't mean I should be following all the rules in the OT?

Lane

[rosered]

 Hi Lane ,
  Its possible  that  if you read  Hebrews 8  that may explain  how Jesus come to fulfill  the Law and  bring in the new covenant  as the old one is  waxing away  ,    depending on your  bible translation   , Hebrews helps alot I  copied it as the WNT  for you
please  note the very last  verse , hope this helps  , God bless you and yours 

Hebrews 8
1 Now in connexion with what we have been saying the chief point is that we have a High Priest who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of God's Majesty in the heavens,

2 and ministers in the Holy place and in the true tabernacle which not man, but the Lord pitched.

3 Every High Priest, however, is appointed to offer both bloodless gifts and sacrifices. Therefore this High Priest also must have some offering to present.

4 If then He were still on earth, He would not be a priest at all, since here there are already those who present the offerings in obedience to the Law,

5 and serve a copy and type of the heavenly things, just as Moses was divinely instructed when about to build the tabernacle. For God said, "See that you make everything in imitation of the pattern shown you on the mountain."

6 But, as a matter of fact, the ministry which Christ has obtained is all the nobler a ministry, in that He is at the same time the negotiator of a sublimer covenant, based upon sublimer promises.

7 For if that first Covenant had been free from imperfection, there would have been no attempt to introduce another.

8 For, being dissatisfied with His people, God says, "`There are days coming,' says the Lord, `When I will establish with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah a new Covenant-- 9 a Covenant unlike the one which I made with their forefathers on the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out from the land of Egypt; for they would not remain faithful to that.' `So I turned from them,' says the Lord.

10 `But this is the Covenant that I will covenant with the house of Israel after those days,' says the Lord: I will put My laws into their minds and will write them upon their hearts. And I will indeed be their God and they shall be My People.

11 And there shall be no need for them to teach each one his fellow citizen and each one his brother, saying, Know the Lord. For all will know Me from the least of them to the greatest;


12 Because I will be merciful to their wrongdoings, and their sins I will remember no longer.'" 13 By using the words, "a new Covenant," He has made the first one obsolete; but whatever is decaying and showing signs of old age is not far from disappearing altogether.

[redhotmagma]

Heaven and earth did pass away. 2000 years ago on the cross.  :2c:

[Lazarus Short]

Heaven and earth did pass away. 2000 years ago on the cross.  :2c:

Can you elaborate on that?  :Chinscratch:

[CHB]

Jesus maginified the law so much that even looking at a woman would mean adultry. He did this to show how impossible it was to keep the laws and to make us realize we needed a savior. It is impossible for man to keep the laws of the OT. If we could we would not have needed Jesus.

CHB

[ded2daworld]

Love is the fulfillment of the Law. Jesus(God) is love. The first four commandments teach us how to Love God, the last 6 teach us how to love people.
"Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength and your neighbor as you do yourself. This is the summation of the Law and he who does this
fulfills the commandments."

[redhotmagma]

Laz,

For me it goes back to Gen 1:1.  I know I've shared this before a bit here and there, and I started putting a whole paper together on the subject, but it has stalled. 

Anyway, here is my translation of Gen 1:1, using Strongs definitions.

Firstfruits- Birthed- Elohim- Aleph/Tau(Alpha/Omega)- heavens-Aleph/Tau- Earth

IMO the creation account of Gen 1-2:3 is of the Christ.  It is the blueprint for the creation of the new man. 

Jesus is the alpha/omega, the first fruits, elohim, and therefore the heavens and earth.

BTW this doesn't mean that Gen 1 isn't about a literal creation, these 2 views are just different dimensions.

Now if you look at the law, and flesh you will see they are intricately tied together, as the Mosaic law is also the law of sin and death, and the power of sin.  Sin was condemned in the flesh of Jesus on the cross.  And when he died the old creation died with him.  As the adam or earth he died.  The law was hanged on the cross, and buried in the ground according to Paul.  The fulfillment of the law is love, like Ded pointed out.  Love God being the vertical pole of the cross.  Love others being the horizontal pole.

[eaglesway]

Laz,

For me it goes back to Gen 1:1.  I know I've shared this before a bit here and there, and I started putting a whole paper together on the subject, but it has stalled. 

Anyway, here is my translation of Gen 1:1, using Strongs definitions.

Firstfruits- Birthed- Elohim- Aleph/Tau(Alpha/Omega)- heavens-Aleph/Tau- Earth

IMO the creation account of Gen 1-2:3 is of the Christ.  It is the blueprint for the creation of the new man. 

Jesus is the alpha/omega, the first fruits, elohim, and therefore the heavens and earth.

BTW this doesn't mean that Gen 1 isn't about a literal creation, these 2 views are just different dimensions.

Now if you look at the law, and flesh you will see they are intricately tied together, as the Mosaic law is also the law of sin and death, and the power of sin.  Sin was condemned in the flesh of Jesus on the cross.  And when he died the old creation died with him.  As the adam or earth he died.  The law was hanged on the cross, and buried in the ground according to Paul.  The fulfillment of the law is love, like Ded pointed out.  Love God being the vertical pole of the cross.  Love others being the horizontal pole.

"It is the blueprint for the creation of the new man."

"this doesn't mean that Gen 1 isn't about a literal creation, these 2 views are just different dimensions."

Amen!  God speaks through His works.

Psa 19:1-6  To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament shews his handywork.  Day unto day utters speech, and night unto night shews knowledge.  There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.  Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun(the light of the world),  Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber(the light shines in the darkness & the darkness cannot overcome it), and rejoices as a strong man to run a race(I have a work to do and oh how I am constrained until it is finished).  His going forth is from the end of the heaven(Alpha), and his circuit unto the ends of it(Omega): and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof(All things gathered into one in Christ).

Rom 1:19-20  Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.  For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Act 17:24-30  God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwells not in temples made with hands;  Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he gives to all life, and breath, and all things; And has made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:  For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commands all men every where to repent:

In the beginning the earth was without form and void(carnal mind, devoid of the image of Christ/divine nature/renewed mind)- but the Spirit hovered over the waters(it is the kindness of God that leads us to repentence/no man comes to me except the Father draw him). The God SPEAKS(faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God) LET THERE BE LIGHT!(Light and darkness separated-fundamental understanding of good and evil, life and death/the light that lights everyman that comes into the world). Then there are a series of separations. Heavens above from heavens below(understanding the priorities of God's love and divine nature, separating knowledge and wisdom- dry land appears, bringing forth UNDERSTANDING(foundation/principle); then FRUITFULNESS(the seed whose fruit is righteousness is sown in peace by them who make peace)- a dove with an olive leaf in its mouth- NEW CREATION. Old world destroyed so that new world comes forth- IN WHICH DWELSS RIGHtEOUSNESS- meaning love rules :o)

Everything God has done with His hands SPEAKS to the wider issues of who He is and how we are entering into the all in all.

Who has known the mind of the Lord ad who has been His couselor.........for from Him and through Him and to Him are all things.





 

[Molly]

Jesus has given us two laws--He makes it 'easy' for us--


Love God with all your heart, mind, and soul.

Love your neighbor as yourself.


On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. Mat 22:40


Love works no ill to his neighbor: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. [Rom 13:10]

[rosered]

Jesus has given us two laws--He makes it 'easy' for us--


Love God with all your heart, mind, and soul.

Love your neighbor as yourself.


On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. Mat 22:40


Love works no ill to his neighbor: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. [Rom 13:10]

I agree Molly
  Its should always be the motive of the heart  ,   the  intent to Love perfectly  ,
not for any greedy  selfish  gain  but to  grow in truth and grace .

Hebrews 6 NASB
6 Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity[perfection ], not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,

2 of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment. 3 And this we will do, if God permits.


4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,


5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,


6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

7 For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;


8 but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.


two places Jesus speaks of making the tree good and its fruit good
  and the passing by of the  fig tree that had not bore fruit   and one  requested    to work on it and dung it   and hope for fruit next year 

[WhiteWings]

I don't believe the OT is done away with. Fulfill doesn't have nothing to do with prophesies and such. It simply means Jesus taught the OT laws as God intended them to be understood.

RoseY: 13 By using the words, "a new Covenant," He has made the first one obsolete; but whatever is decaying and showing signs of old age is not far from disappearing altogether.

I don't believe that really teaches the OT is discarded.

Just quoting a part of what I wrote down during my marriage study.
PROGRESSION

This is one of the most important things to understand when viewing the Bible as whole (which you should).
The Bible isn't a book of separate stories that have no connection or new stories replacing old stories. Neither do new laws and/or teaching replaces old ones. It would mean HS inspired something inferior...

This is best explained with few examples. Shortly after you were born your parents started to teach you to how to speak. That was quite helpful when you went to school because you could understand the calculus lessons. 1+1=2. That's already progressive. Without language you wouldn't have understood that. The A+ in calculus progressed from the first speech lesson you parents gave you. Calculus doesn't make speech obsolete. Eventually you got your master's degree in math. Does that mean 1+1 no longer equals 2? Does it make speech obsolete? Nope. It simply means 1+1 is the foun-dation of your degree. Likewise your first word is the foundation of 1+1.

Another example is marriage. The order of foundation is: Meet --> Friendship --> Dating --> Engagement --> Marriage
Can you have friendship without meeting? Dating couples no longer are friends? Married people never met each other? So marriage progressed from meeting.

The whole Bible is a huge marriage covenant as you hopefully will start to see as we progress. For now I will compare it to a house.
Foundation --> walls --> roof -> Decoration and furniture
Hanging you family pictures on the wall may be your goal but first you have to lay that ugly underground foundation. It's hidden but it paved the way for the picture.
Without Genesis no Revelation. Simple as that. A wall doesn't replace a foundation; neither does Exodus replace Gene-sis. A wall isn't done away with a roof; neither is the OT done away with the NT. You can't hang decorations without walls. Jesus can't give eternal life in Revelation without God creating in Genesis. There isn't an old and new testament. It's one huge progressive book.

So it would better to call the 'New Testament' or 'New Covenant'   the 'Progressed Covenant'. But even that's not right because then the NT isn't the only progress shown in the Bible because the relationship between God and man changed between Genesis and Malachi. So I will stick to my old naming OT and NT. Not for accuracy but because it's most known and no other term is completely correct.

The Bible calls it drinking milk and eating meat. Does that mean the meat eater should reject the God given milk they re-ceived years ago as obsolete/inferior? Think not...

[eaglesway]

What is dead "in the letter" is made alive "in the Spirit". The OT is alive and simply a part of the whole Logos in the Spirit. The NT is as dead as coal "in the letter". it is the Spirit that makes any of the word alive.
Thats why the word of God is the sword of the Spirit.

[WhiteWings]

Yeah, of course, I'm aware of the famous the letter kills and the Spirit gives life.
My interpretation of the verse seems to be very different from how others understand it.

First I must say HS=Law. That's written as directly as it can be and as I believe it to be.

Perhaps I should start with a few examples to clarify my thoughts.

- Alfred Bernhard Nobel invented dynamite for peaceful purposes. Mining. But as we all know it's mostly used for war.
- Nuclear power can be used to cure cancer but also for warfare.
- A knife can be used to make beautiful wood carvings for God's Temple or to kill.
- Fire can be used to cook or light a Menorah but also to burn people alive.

My point is many things can be used for good and bad.
Mark 2:27 And he said to them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

That verse is one of the best verses to illustrate my point. Jesus didn't say Sabbath is bad, should change or should be get rid of.
He said mankind misunderstood what's Sababth is for. For Father it was giving mankind a moment of rest. For the Jewish leaders it was a big fat stick to hit people with.

I hope the above is clear, even if you don't agree with it.

The letter that kills is a 100% perfect very good letter. But mankind as usual studied the letter to find the most negative interpretation. We discuss that fact daily as ET vs UR.
God gave dynamite to ease mining activities. Mankind uses it for war.
The Holy spirit doesn't improve the written law. The Holy Spirit shows mankind God's dynamite was always intended for mining. Not for war.

I hope the above explains my view because I struggle to express what I feel.

[micah7:9]

 :dsunny:

[rosered]

  I agree with   what  everyone has shred , great  considerations   to all 
I see them as being the  2 covenants   as   the two trees     

the tree of knowledge of good and evil   , we eat  of
and chosing the good
and the tree of Life  , being called Jesus Christ   we began to eat of  when made  a new

just some thoughts  :girlheart:

[dajomaco]

My opinoin
The bible is just a dead book of words that produces death .
It 's like grabbing a hand full of  dirt and throwing it at some one .
That's why people feel dirty before God.

The only time life can be found in it is when the person reading or hearing
is led by the Holy Spirit .

[eaglesway]

I do not understand HS= LAW. Does that mean the Holy Spirit equals law? Paul made clear distinctions between the Law in dead letters and the Law of God which is His divine nature, partaking of it, being comnormed to His image, which is the image of Jesus. Not sure what you are trying to say. Would you mind clarifying please?

[micah7:9]

My opinoin
The bible is just a dead book of words that produces death .
It 's like grabbing a hand full of  dirt and throwing it at some one .
That's why people feel dirty before God.

The only time life can be found in it is when the person reading or hearing
is led by the Holy Spirit .

:dsunny:

[WhiteWings]

I do not understand HS= LAW. Does that mean the Holy Spirit equals law? Paul made clear distinctions between the Law in dead letters and the Law of God which is His divine nature, partaking of it, being comnormed to His image, which is the image of Jesus. Not sure what you are trying to say. Would you mind clarifying please?

Sure I'm willing to clarify; and will do that  by asking you to read my work in progress site. Unfortunately it has to be that long because all links together and any shortcut will be answered with " but what about?"

http://home.online.nl/spamfree/Lake/index.html   ---> Especially section A

[WhiteWings]

Paul made clear distinctions between the Law in dead letters and the Law of God which is His divine nature, partaking of it, being comnormed to His image, which is the image of Jesus.

I tried to explain this part of my view in reply #12. I see the rather negative words people speak about the Bible bordering slander.

/EDIT
While I'm sure all in this thread hold the Bible in great respect some speak about it like it's the Necronomicon.

[jabcat]

My opinoin
The bible is just a dead book of words that produces death .
It 's like grabbing a hand full of  dirt and throwing it at some one .
That's why people feel dirty before God.

The only time life can be found in it is when the person reading or hearing
is led by the Holy Spirit .

I agree the Holy Spirit must be involved - but I believe it is, that the Spirit is not absent from the written/spoken/or revealed Word of God - but is ever-present. I believe the reason we often feel dirty before God is either because we are and need to be spiritually reborn, cleaned up and sanctified, or, we don't have understanding/revelation of what a relationship with Christ means and does, so there can be inappropriate guilt brought on by the accuser to a believer.

I believe if one looks at the context of the scripture and doesn't pull it out of its application, the "letter kills" is talking about the Law (showing us our sin and deficiencies without Christ).  On the other side, "For the [logos-saying-word] word of God [is]alive and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."

[WhiteWings]

The cool thing, for me, about the scriptures is that the portal and the veil are one thing. For some the word is a stumbling block. For another it is the light upon their path. he law was a shadow, only because it was a lesser stage of revelation in the continuing plan of God. However, one the "new" revelation comes, it lights up like a matrix in the veins of the old because He is making "ALL THINGS NEW". I like how Paul explains that in 1 Corinthians 3.

I quoted you from another thread. I think our views aren't that far off. You call the Scriptures Light for some and fall (stumbling) for others. But yet there is only one Scripture. We just need a Good Teacher to stop falling. But that Good Teacher doesn't discard the written Word.

[jabcat]

I guess the only way I might see it as a stumbling-block is in terms of "sharper than a twoedged sword, cutting, dividing, discerning".  That can indeed be painful, but it's not a "negative" - it's to lead us to Jesus and into deeper relationship and more trust in Him rather than ourselves.

[jabcat]

However, Jesus Himself is described as a stone that can crush us (to resist Him and go our own way is death?).   :2c:  So I'm sure many do "stumble" over the scriptures and spoken/revealed Word due to the condition of our heart and the stubbornness of our will, and maybe that's more-so what you mean EW...  I know if I'm in rebellion, the Word of God cuts me and reveals what's in me...

[eaglesway]

It kind of comes down to defintions. I define "the word" as that which is wielded by the Spirit. I define the "stumbling block" as the letter. Both are hidden in the scriptures. I agree WW, that "the word"(Spirtual understanding of the scriptures) never discards the written word.

Rather, the Spirit "rightly divides" the scriptures so that we can understand them from God's point of view.

If we are carnal we stumble over the scriptures. If we are spiritual, they enlighten us and speak for themselves.