Salvation vs Reconciliation

[jbertonbounds]

Sometimes things seem a little blurry to me and I have a hard time sorting it all out.
I was never taught these things by the ET's, so much of this is still new to me.
I would love to compare my understanding with how others understand it.

Here is the way I understand it:
(1) Jesus died to save all people.
(2) We are not saved from anything, but rather for a purpose: to be a priestly nation to God.
(3) Those who overcome self-will will be raised in the 1^st resurrection and reign with Jesus for the millennium, receiving the greatest blessings.
(4) All the rest will be raised in the 2^nd resurrection after the millennium to be judged by there deeds at the Great White Throne.
     (a) Some will be found with their names written in the Lamb's book of life, and rewarded.
     (b) The rest will be sent to the figurative lake of fire, the nature of which we are not told.
(5) The corrective punishment of the lake of fire will purify those who are sent there, so that they also can come into God's presence.
(6) All things will then be reconciled to God, and he will be all-in-all.

Some of the questions lingering in my mind are:
(1) Will there be a great jubilee and where does the great jubilee fit into this?
(2) Is it really correct to say that all people will be saved? or that the faithful will be saved, and the rest reconciled?
(3) Or is it correct to say that we are all already saved, but the unfaithful will need to be purified in the lake of fire?
(4) Will the overcomers who are resurrected in the 1^st resurrection also be judged at the Great White Throne?

I realized that much of this is subject to personal beliefs and opinions, and I would love to hear from you.
Please use scripture to base your beliefs on.
Thanks so much for your input!

[marie glen]

I find myself believing since Jesus was the Passover Lamb and the Unleavened Bread and also the "Firstfruit" unto God, i.e. the "First" to be resurrected, a firstfruit unto God (summed up by the Hebrew Spring Holy Days of Passover, Unleavened Bread and Firstfruits... and then Pentecost..

Since these were fulfilled by His 1st advent, mightn't we believe His long 2nd advent is prophesied by the Fall Holy Days - Trumpets, 10 days later, Atonement, and 5 days later Tabernacles?

Trumpets coinciding to Mt. 24:29-31 "immediately after the tribulation of those days.. will see Him returning on the clouds.. with the sound of the (last)trumpet, will send His angels out to gather His elect.." (the 1st resurrection 1 thess 4 and 1 Cor 15:51,52; and 2 thess 1;7,8 "He returns with fire and with angels")

1000 years later,

Great White Throne 'Judgment' following the 2nd resurrection which is of all not yet reconciled, coinciding to (surprise) Atonement (surprise, your debt was paid in full!) - After a long day of intense review of all human history, at the end of which it is said "those not believing will go to the 2nd death, the LOF" (created for the devil and his angels, Mt 25:41- I actually believe there are at least 3 LOF's.. the one at (1)His return, which I believe is something man actually does, when the goats and sheep are separated, the goat nations surrounding Israel for Armegeddon, the one (2)of Rev 20:9 and 10, and the one (3) of Rev 20:14,15, at the end of the long day of  'judgment', but which I have to wonder, after having experienced being resurrected and living through the long day of intense review of all human history, how many are "not going to believe"?)

and after all this, 500 years later, i.e. after the 2nd resurrection? "God will now Tabernacle with mankind" (KJV)

The ten days between Trumpets and Day of Atonement, coinciding with the 1000 years between the 2 resurrections..  :2c: :gsmile:

P.S - I believe the Great White Throne Judgement will be an intense day of review.. a day of etching and deeply engraving upon every heart, mind and psyche the full knwoing of good from evil which is also life from death, true from untrue..

[jbertonbounds]

I find myself believing since Jesus was the Passover Lamb and the Unleavened Bread and also the "Firstfruit" unto God, i.e. the "First" to be resurrected, a firstfruit unto God (summed up by the Hebrew Spring Holy Days of Passover, Unleavened Bread and Firstfruits... and then Pentecost..

Since these were fulfilled by His 1st advent, mightn't we believe His long 2nd advent is prophesied by the Fall Holy Days - Trumpets, 10 days later, Atonement, and 5 days later Tabernacles?

Trumpets coinciding to Mt. 24:29-31 "immediately after the tribulation of those days.. will see Him returning on the clouds.. with the sound of the (last)trumpet, will send His angels out to gather His elect.." (the 1st resurrection 1 thess 4 and 1 Cor 15:51,52; and 2 thess 1;7,8 "He returns with fire and with angels")

1000 years later,

Great White Throne 'Judgment' following the 2nd resurrection which is of all not yet reconciled, coinciding to (surprise) Atonement (surprise, your debt was paid in full!) - After a long day of intense review of all human history, at the end of which it is said "those not believing will go to the 2nd death, the LOF" (created for the devil and his angels, Mt 25:41- I actually believe there are at least 3 LOF's.. the one at (1)His return, which I believe is something man actually does, when the goats and sheep are separated, the goat nations surrounding Israel for Armegeddon, the one (2)of Rev 20:9 and 10, and the one (3) of Rev 20:14,15, at the end of the long day of  'judgment', but which I have to wonder, after having experienced being resurrected and living through the long day of intense review of all human history, how many are "not going to believe"?)

and after all this, 500 years later, i.e. after the 2nd resurrection? "God will now Tabernacle with mankind" (KJV)

The ten days between Trumpets and Day of Atonement, coinciding with the 1000 years between the 2 resurrections..  :2c: :gsmile:

P.S - I believe the Great White Throne Judgement will be an intense day of review.. a day of etching and deeply engraving upon every heart, mind and psyche the full knwoing of good from evil which is also life from death, true from untrue..

Thanks for your point-of-view.
This is very interesting - I never thought that there may be more than one Lake of Fire.
Why 500 years (what I bolded above)?

[marie glen]

         :hiya:

the 500 years would correlate to the 5 days between the 2nd and 3rd Fall Holy Days (of Day of Judgment/Atonement and Tabernacles) as the 1000 years (millenium) i believe will correlate to the 10 days between the 1st and 2nd Fall Holy Days (of Trumpets and Day of Atonement/Judgment?)

This being so (?) if the Fall Holy Days prophesy the 2nd advent of Jesus, as the Spring Holy Days prophesied (and were fulfilled by) His 1st advent.. :gsmile:

[jbertonbounds]

Cool. 
The symbology in all this runs do deep, I suppose it would help if I were to go back and study the Law and learn the basics. 
I wonder if there is a book entitled "The Law for Dummies." :laughing7:

[Lazarus Short]

         :hiya:

the 500 years would correlate to the 5 days between the 2nd and 3rd Fall Holy Days (of Day of Judgment/Atonement and Tabernacles) as the 1000 years (millenium) i believe will correlate to the 10 days between the 1st and 2nd Fall Holy Days (of Trumpets and Day of Atonement/Judgment?)

This being so (?) if the Fall Holy Days prophesy the 2nd advent of Jesus, as the Spring Holy Days prophesied (and were fulfilled by) His 1st advent.. :gsmile:

Marie, I have seen you in various posts positing a 500-year interval in future history, correlating to a 5-day interval in the Fall Holy Days.  If we are going on the 1 day = 1,000 years principle, should this not be a 5 day = 5,000 year time period?  :dunno2:

[eaglesway]

Sometimes things seem a little blurry to me and I have a hard time sorting it all out.
I was never taught these things by the ET's, so much of this is still new to me.
I would love to compare my understanding with how others understand it.

Here is the way I understand it:
(1) Jesus died to save all people.
(2) We are not saved from anything, but rather for a purpose: to be a priestly nation to God.
(3) Those who overcome self-will will be raised in the 1^st resurrection and reign with Jesus for the millennium, receiving the greatest blessings.
(4) All the rest will be raised in the 2^nd resurrection after the millennium to be judged by there deeds at the Great White Throne.
     (a) Some will be found with their names written in the Lamb's book of life, and rewarded.
     (b) The rest will be sent to the figurative lake of fire, the nature of which we are not told.
(5) The corrective punishment of the lake of fire will purify those who are sent there, so that they also can come into God's presence.
(6) All things will then be reconciled to God, and he will be all-in-all.

Some of the questions lingering in my mind are:
(1) Will there be a great jubilee and where does the great jubilee fit into this?
(2) Is it really correct to say that all people will be saved? or that the faithful will be saved, and the rest reconciled?
(3) Or is it correct to say that we are all already saved, but the unfaithful will need to be purified in the lake of fire?
(4) Will the overcomers who are resurrected in the 1^st resurrection also be judged at the Great White Throne?

I realized that much of this is subject to personal beliefs and opinions, and I would love to hear from you.
Please use scripture to base your beliefs on.
Thanks so much for your input!

great points and great questions. I would point out that the LoF is IN the presence of God and His holy messengers.

Rv 14 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10 they, too, will drink the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment will rise olam(till fulfilled). There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name." 12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.


Rv 20 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night olam(till fulfilled)

And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

These few verses cover events and times of immense proportions. IMO we are not meant to build exacting systematic theologies around these verses.

I personally believe the lake of fire is a holding pen in the presence of God and His holy messengers(kno ye not ye shll judge angels?) where the light, which is fire, will cause "EVRY HIDDEN THING TO BE BROUGHT TO THE LIGHT". In Ephesians Paul said every thing brought to the light becomes light. The Light shines in the darkness and the darkness cannot overcome it.(Jn 1) Jesus said, "You will not be released until you pay the last penny".

Remember, as John the Baptist preached they were being baptized in the Jordan river 'confessing their sins'- this unburdening of sin, the unraveling of the 'worm' that dies not  and the fire that will not quench untill fulfilled.(in that day I will slay Leviathan the twisting fleeing serpent with the sword of my mouth Isaiah 27, His eyes are as flames of fire Rev 2) brought them release and restoration, ("Prepare ye the way of the Lord). That is what will be happening as "every knee bows" and "every tongue confesses"- IMO this awaits all mankind, and every angel, as he reconciles every one through the blood of His cross through an administration working thoughout the fulness of times(each in His own order 1 Cor 15). For us, this order is come already, we have bowed the knee, we have confessed His Lordship, we have received the reconciliation through the cleansing blood fo Christ and we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God as the firstfruits.

Anyway, thats how I sees it from my limited perspective :o)

[jbertonbounds]

These few verses cover events and times of immense proportions. IMO we are not meant to build exacting systematic theologies around these verses.

Good point. :thumbsup:

[Graph1159]

Interesting discussion. Those who disagree with the salvation of all have pointed out that there is no Scripture in the Bible that says, "Everybody is going to be saved." I don't know for sure why this is the case, but I have an idea.

I too have observed that across the Scriptures, the terms "salvation" or "saved" are only applied to those who believe the Gospel *. The wages of sin is death (Rom. 6:23). So, to be saved, is to be saved from death while death is still operative in humanity. But, when death is abolished, what is there to save anybody from? Death keeps people in separation from God, so the way I see it is that when death is abolished, all are reconciled.

Samuel

* An exception is 1 Timothy 4:10, "God, who is the Savior of all men, especially those who believe." There's also 1 Timothy 2:4, "Who will have all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth." It appears there are two groups of people, those who are saved from death while it exists (the "especially" group) and those who are saved by the destruction of death itself. The former group is what I think the Bible usually speaks of when it speaks of salvation. 1 Timothy 4:10 is unusual in that it reveals something beyond that.

[jbertonbounds]

Ps 65:2-4  2 O you who hear prayer, to you shall ALL flesh come.  3 When iniquities prevail against me, you atone for our transgressions.  4 Blessed is the one you choose and bring near, to dwell in your courts!  We shall be satisfied with the goodness of your house, the holiness of your temple!

Isa 10:14  My hand has found like a nest  the wealth of the peoples; and as one gathers eggs that have been forsaken,  so I have gathered ALL the earth; and there was none that moved a wing or opened the mouth or chirped.

Isa 25:6  On this mountain the LORD of hosts will make for ALL peoples a feast of rich food, a feast of well-aged wine, of rich food full of marrow, of aged wine well refined.

Isa 25:8  He will swallow up death forever; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from ALL faces, and the reproach of his people he will take away from ALL the earth, for the LORD has spoken.

Isa 26:9  My soul yearns for you in the night; my spirit within me earnestly seeks you.  For when your judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of THE WORLD learn righteousness.

Isa 51:8  For the moth will eat them up like a garment, and the worm will eat them like wool; but my righteousness will be forever, and my salvation to ALL generations.

Lk 2:10  And the angel said to them, "Fear not, for behold, I bring you good news of great joy that will be for ALL the people."

Lk 3:6  and ALL flesh shall see the salvation of God.

Lk 20:38  Now he is not God of the dead, but of the living, for ALL live to him.

Jn 1:9  The true light, which gives light to EVERYONE, was coming into the world.

Jn 6:33  For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to THE WORLD.

Jn 12:32  "And I, when I [Jesus] am lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL people to myself."

Acts 3:21  whom heaven must receive until the time for restoring ALL the things about which God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets long ago.

Rom 5:18  Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for ALL men.

Rom 6:10  For the death he died he died to sin, once for ALL, but the life he lives he lives to God.

Rom 11:15  For if their rejection means the reconciliation of THE WORLD, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?

Rom 11:32  For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on ALL.

Rom 11:36  For from him and through him and to him are ALL things.

1 Cor 3:15  If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

1 Cor 15:22  For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

2 Cor 5:14  For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for ALL, therefore all have died;

2 Cor 5:19  God was Christ reconciling THE WORLD to Himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them.

2 Cor 5:18-19  18 All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling THE WORLD to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

Eph 1: 9-10  9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite ALL things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

Col 1:19-20  19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself ALL things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

1 Tim 2:4  who desires ALL people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. [if it is God's desire, then it is God's will – Is not God's will always done?]

1 Tim 2:6  who gave himself as a ransom for ALL, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

1 Tim 4:10  For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of ALL people, especially of those who believe. [What do you suppose the word "especially" indicates?]

Tts 2:11  For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for ALL people,

Heb 1:2  but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of ALL things, through whom also he created the world.

Heb 7:27  He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people, since he did this once for ALL when he offered up himself.

Heb 9:12  he entered once for ALL into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.

Heb 9:26  for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for ALL at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Heb 10:10  And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for ALL.

2 Peter 3:9  The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that ALL should reach repentance.

Revelation 5:13  And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and ALL that is in them, saying, "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!"

Jn 12:31-32  31 "Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out. 32 And I [Jesus], when I am lifted up from the earth,
will draw ALL people to myself."

:dsunny: :dsunny: :dsunny:

[rosered]

Sometimes things seem a little blurry to me and I have a hard time sorting it all out.
I was never taught these things by the ET's, so much of this is still new to me.
I would love to compare my understanding with how others understand it.

Here is the way I understand it:
(1) Jesus died to save all people.
(2) We are not saved from anything, but rather for a purpose: to be a priestly nation to God.
(3) Those who overcome self-will will be raised in the 1^st resurrection and reign with Jesus for the millennium, receiving the greatest blessings.
(4) All the rest will be raised in the 2^nd resurrection after the millennium to be judged by there deeds at the Great White Throne.
     (a) Some will be found with their names written in the Lamb's book of life, and rewarded.
     (b) The rest will be sent to the figurative lake of fire, the nature of which we are not told.
(5) The corrective punishment of the lake of fire will purify those who are sent there, so that they also can come into God's presence.
(6) All things will then be reconciled to God, and he will be all-in-all.

Some of the questions lingering in my mind are:
(1) Will there be a great jubilee and where does the great jubilee fit into this?
(2) Is it really correct to say that all people will be saved? or that the faithful will be saved, and the rest reconciled?
(3) Or is it correct to say that we are all already saved, but the unfaithful will need to be purified in the lake of fire?
(4) Will the overcomers who are resurrected in the 1^st resurrection also be judged at the Great White Throne?

I realized that much of this is subject to personal beliefs and opinions, and I would love to hear from you.
Please use scripture to base your beliefs on.
Thanks so much for your input!

great points and great questions. I would point out that the LoF is IN the presence of God and His holy messengers.

Rv 14 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10 they, too, will drink the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment will rise olam(till fulfilled). There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name." 12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.


Rv 20 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night olam(till fulfilled)

And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

These few verses cover events and times of immense proportions. IMO we are not meant to build exacting systematic theologies around these verses.

I personally believe the lake of fire is a holding pen in the presence of God and His holy messengers(kno ye not ye shll judge angels?) where the light, which is fire, will cause "EVRY HIDDEN THING TO BE BROUGHT TO THE LIGHT". In Ephesians Paul said every thing brought to the light becomes light. The Light shines in the darkness and the darkness cannot overcome it.(Jn 1) Jesus said, "You will not be released until you pay the last penny".

Remember, as John the Baptist preached they were being baptized in the Jordan river 'confessing their sins'- this unburdening of sin, the unraveling of the 'worm' that dies not  and the fire that will not quench untill fulfilled.(in that day I will slay Leviathan the twisting fleeing serpent with the sword of my mouth Isaiah 27, His eyes are as flames of fire Rev 2) brought them release and restoration, ("Prepare ye the way of the Lord). That is what will be happening as "every knee bows" and "every tongue confesses"- IMO this awaits all mankind, and every angel, as he reconciles every one through the blood of His cross through an administration working thoughout the fulness of times(each in His own order 1 Cor 15). For us, this order is come already, we have bowed the knee, we have confessed His Lordship, we have received the reconciliation through the cleansing blood fo Christ and we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God as the firstfruits.

Anyway, thats how I sees it from my limited perspective :o)

   :iagree:  I just saw this in  a brighter Light   and see what your saying John !!
never seen this before its what Laz  brought up on the second coming of Christ

you shall judge angels [messengers of God ] 
  Stephen was  recieved as a son of God

    they  are  being  judged  by the ascending and descending   on the Son of Man , noted the sitting on the  right hand  and the standing on the right Hand  as  meaning differnt

Act 7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

Jhn 1:51 And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.

   the   angels of God going up and going down rising and falling   On the Son of Man
  that is being judged right now ?


1Cr 6:1 ¶ Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?

Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world?

and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

Know ye not that we shall judge angels?

how much more things that pertain to this life? If then you have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.


that being going into prayer over the matter  and not the law to punish !

the church  being the body of Christ  being assembled in Heaven   the holy ones saints born of God as Sons      , Stephen was one received   by Acts 7  when heaven opened  and he was Jesus  standing on the right hand of power  to judge the quick and the dead .


sitting Strong's G2521 - kathēmai   
1) to sit down, seat one's self

2) to sit, be seated, of a place occupied

a) to have a fixed abode, to dwell

Strong's G2476 - histēmi
1) to cause or make to stand, to place, put, set

a) to bid to stand by, [set up]

1) in the presence of others, in the midst, before judges, before members of the Sanhedrin;

2) to place

b) to make firm, fix establish

1) to cause a person or a thing to keep his or its place

2) to stand, be kept intact (of family, a kingdom), to escape in safety

3) to establish a thing, cause it to stand

a) to uphold or sustain the authority or force of anything

c) to set or place in a balance

1) to weigh: money to one (because in very early times before the introduction of coinage, the metals used to be weighed)

2) to stand

a) to stand by or near

1) to stop, stand still, to stand immovable, stand firm

a) of the foundation of a building

b) to stand

1) continue safe and sound, stand unharmed, to stand ready or prepared

2) to be of a steadfast mind

3) of quality, one who does not hesitate, does not waiver


Act 10:42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God [to be] the Judge of quick and dead.
2Ti 4:1 I charge [thee] therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 1Pe 4:5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.


  All ''inclusive of the dead and the living   '' 

[sheila]

   when He is standing[Michael stands up/Michael=who is like God] deliverance of the body undergoing the death occurrs

sitting is the last enemy already overcome. This shows those sitting on the thrones with Him in first resurrection have

suffered death. and received crown of life......  this is akin to the raised arm in battle of Israel in old testiment..

[rosered]

   when He is standing[Michael stands up/Michael=who is like God] deliverance of the body undergoing the death occurrs

sitting is the last enemy already overcome. This shows those sitting on the thrones with Him in first resurrection have

suffered death. and received crown of life......  this is akin to the raised arm in battle of Israel in old testiment..

I believe that Shelia
  I just saw this too  !!   they are the great cloud of witnesses to the   righteous judgments of Jesus Christ
Luk 12:8 Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:
Luk 12:9 But he that denys  me before men shall be denied before the angels of God.

   I see it as the head and Body and feet [teaching  , preaching the gospel ] of Christ are  being formed even now

  but not all   , only those  that are called out of the world
  not all are called out  but do die in sin still
  right ?
  that being the dead  in sin
  verses  that being dead in Christ 
I am trying to understand all the scriptures    that work together as  His   Holy Word of Truth .

   what names are blotted out of the Lambs book of Life ?

  some are forgiven and some are  waiting    in the abode of the dead   as the angels leaving thier fist estate   being held  in Enoch and  Peter  ?


Neh 4:5 And cover not their iniquity, and let not their sin be blotted out from before thee: for they have provoked [thee] to anger before the builders.


Psa 69:28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.


Psa 109:13 Let his posterity be cut off; [and] in the generation following let their name be blotted out.

Psa 109:14 Let the iniquity of his fathers be remembered with the LORD; and let not the sin of his mother be blotted out.


Isa 44:22 I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, thy transgressions, and, as a cloud, thy sins: return unto me; for I have redeemed thee.  :thumbsup:


Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord :thumbsup:

Acts 3    says  unless they are held  And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

    that being  those whom are in the 1st ressurection  where the 2nd death holds no power over them
  seems the 2nd death would hold power over the abgels still in darkness   and in the abode of the dead  than  right ?

  I want to understand  the truth and facts   , it must  fit  perfectly  :dunno2:

[jbertonbounds]

Can anybody tell me what the difference between salvation and reconciliation is?

[Lazarus Short]

Can anybody tell me what the difference between salvation and reconciliation is?

I see salvation as being rescued from the dust of death, or from the death that takes us all:  non-existence.

I see reconciliation as a sort of coming home, home being where, if you show up, they have to take you in.  You are able to stand before God without pain, fear, guilt, or sin-debt.  For His part, God can bear to have us stand before Him, seeing us as loved sons and daughters, not sinners or enemies.

[rosered]

Can anybody tell me what the difference between salvation and reconciliation is?

  sorry this thread was  :hijacked:


salvation   ,   saved by   Jesus blood offering  in the world but not of it  , of sin

  this difference , or   same work or two different  workings  going on here ?

reconciliation    Jesus CHRIST   restoring  us back to  favor  to God  grace of God working
strongs greek meanings    lol.. :winkgrin:

Strong's G4991 - sōtēria
1) deliverance, preservation, safety, salvation

a) deliverance from the molestation of enemies

b) in an ethical sense, that which concludes to the soul's safety or salvation

(1) of Messianic salvation

2) salvation as the present possession of all true Christians

3) future salvation, the sum of benefits and blessings which the Christians, redeemed from all earthly ills, will enjoy after the visible return of Christ from heaven in the consummated and eternal kingdom of God.

Scripture describes a fourfold salvation: saved from the penalty, power, presence and the pleasure of sin. (cf. Arthur W. Pink, A Fourfold Salvation)


Strong's G2643 - katallagē
1) exchange

a) of the business of money changers, exchanging equivalent values

2) adjustment of a difference, reconciliation, restoration to favour

a) in the NT of the restoration of the favour of God to sinners that repent and put their trust in the expiatory death of Christ

Rom 5:11 And not only [so], but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement2643.


Rom 11:15 For if the casting away of them [be] the reconciling2643 of the world, what [shall] the receiving [of them be], but life from the dead?


2Cr 5:18 And all things [are] of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation2643;


2Cr 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation2643.

Do you see much difference

[rosered]

Can anybody tell me what the difference between salvation and reconciliation is?

I see salvation as being rescued from the dust of death, or from the death that takes us all:  non-existence.

I see reconciliation as a sort of coming home, home being where, if you show up, they have to take you in.  You are able to stand before God without pain, fear, guilt, or sin-debt.  For His part, God can bear to have us stand before Him, seeing us as loved sons and daughters, not sinners or enemies.

Yes,   Laz , your so spot  on , you know that !!    deliverance from sin  = salvation

  reconciliation  back in the favor and grace of God to  Life again   :thumbsup:

[jbertonbounds]

Can anybody tell me what the difference between salvation and reconciliation is?

I see salvation as being rescued from the dust of death, or from the death that takes us all:  non-existence.

I see reconciliation as a sort of coming home, home being where, if you show up, they have to take you in.  You are able to stand before God without pain, fear, guilt, or sin-debt.  For His part, God can bear to have us stand before Him, seeing us as loved sons and daughters, not sinners or enemies.

Yes,   Laz , your so spot  on , you know that !!    deliverance from sin  = salvation

  reconciliation  back in the favor and grace of God to  Life again   :thumbsup:

LIKE

[TomH]

Sometimes things seem a little blurry to me and I have a hard time sorting it all out.
I was never taught these things by the ET's, so much of this is still new to me.
I would love to compare my understanding with how others understand it.

Here is the way I understand it:
(1) Jesus died to save all people.
(2) We are not saved from anything, but rather for a purpose: to be a priestly nation to God.
(3) Those who overcome self-will will be raised in the 1^st resurrection and reign with Jesus for the millennium, receiving the greatest blessings.
(4) All the rest will be raised in the 2^nd resurrection after the millennium to be judged by there deeds at the Great White Throne.
     (a) Some will be found with their names written in the Lamb's book of life, and rewarded.
     (b) The rest will be sent to the figurative lake of fire, the nature of which we are not told.
(5) The corrective punishment of the lake of fire will purify those who are sent there, so that they also can come into God's presence.
(6) All things will then be reconciled to God, and he will be all-in-all.

Some of the questions lingering in my mind are:
(1) Will there be a great jubilee and where does the great jubilee fit into this?
(2) Is it really correct to say that all people will be saved? or that the faithful will be saved, and the rest reconciled?
(3) Or is it correct to say that we are all already saved, but the unfaithful will need to be purified in the lake of fire?
(4) Will the overcomers who are resurrected in the 1^st resurrection also be judged at the Great White Throne?

I realized that much of this is subject to personal beliefs and opinions, and I would love to hear from you.
Please use scripture to base your beliefs on.
Thanks so much for your input!

"for this are we toiling and being reproached, that we rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of believers" (1 Timothy 4:10)

Believers are saved from indignation for eonian life while unbelievers who die will eventually be saved from death when death is abolished.

"The last enemy is being abolished: death." (1 Corinthians 15:26)

All on earth and in heaven will be reconciled to God through Christ's sacrifice. That means all mankind and even evil spirit beings.

"through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens" (Colossians 1:20)

"Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all." (1 Corinthians 15:28)

The second death-the lake of fire is only torment for the eons of the eons for the Adversary, the wild beast, and the false prophet because they are spirit beings not subject to death. Mortals condemned to the second death-the lake of fire will be dead. There is no consciousness in death.

"The living know that they shall die, But the dead know nothing whatsoever." (Ecclesiastes 9:5)

"And the Adversary who is deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and sulphur, where the wild beast and where the false prophet are also. And they shall be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons." (Revelation 20:10)

"And death and the unseen were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death-the lake of fire." (Revelation 20:14)

"Yet the timid, and unbelievers, and the abominable, and murderers, and paramours, and enchanters, and idolaters, and all the false-their part is in the lake burning with fire and sulphur, which is the second death." (Revelation 21:8)

It is unbelievers who will stand before the great white throne where even they will come to God through Christ but by judgment not by faith.

"And I perceived a great white throne, and Him Who is sitting upon it, from Whose face earth and heaven fled, and no place was found for them. And I perceived the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne. And scrolls were opened. And another scroll was opened which is the scroll of life. And the dead were judged by that which is written in the scrolls in accord with their acts. And the sea gives up the dead in it, and death and the unseen give up the dead in them. And they were condemned, each in accord with their acts. And death and the unseen were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death-the lake of fire. And if anyone was not found written in the scroll of life, he was cast into the lake of fire." (Revelation 20:11-15)

http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheProblemOfEvil/evil028.html

"GOD HAS SWORN that He will win the worship of every knee and the acclaim of every tongue. Before His bema, or dais, all must come (Rom.14:11). This is in full accord with His purpose to reconcile all to Himself at the consummation (Col.1:20). Then, after the unbeliever has been judged and vivified, it will be fully accomplished. But those who believe will come to this blessed end long before, in the former resurrection, when Israel's saints are raised, and, still earlier, when those of this secret administration are presented at the dais of Christ, and each gives an account of himself to God (Rom.14:12)."

http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheProblemOfEvil/evil023.html

"Nothing, consequently, is now condemnation to those in Christ Jesus. Not according to flesh are they walking, but according to spirit, for the spirit's law of life in Christ Jesus frees you from the law of sin and death." (Romans 8:1,2)

"Now why are you judging your brother? Or why are you also scorning your brother? For all of us shall be presented at the dais of God, for it is written: Living am I, the Lord is saying, For to Me shall bow every knee, And every tongue shall be acclaiming God! Consequently, then, each of us shall be giving account concerning himself to God." (Romans 14:10-12)

"For all of us must be manifested in front of the dais of Christ, that each should be requited for that which he puts into practice through the body, whether good or bad." (2 Corinthians 5:10)

"Now he who is planting and he who is irrigating are for one thing. Yet each will be getting his own wages according to his own toil. For God's fellow workers are we. God's farm, God's building, are you. According to the grace of God which is being granted to me, as a wise foreman I lay a foundation, yet another is building on it. Yet let each one beware how he is building on it. For other foundation can no one lay beside that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone is building on this foundation gold and silver, precious stones, wood, grass, straw, each one's work will become apparent, for the day will make it evident, for it is being revealed by fire. And the fire, it will be testing each one's work -- what kind it is. If anyone's work will be remaining which he builds on it, he will get wages. If anyone's work shall be burned up, he will forfeit it, yet he shall be saved, yet thus, as through fire." (1 Corinthians 3:8-15)

http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html

I don't know what you're referring to when you say "the great jubilee." The only jubilee I know about is the fifty year celebration in Hebrew scripture.

[WhiteWings]

Sometimes things seem a little blurry to me and I have a hard time sorting it all out.
I was never taught these things by the ET's, so much of this is still new to me.
I would love to compare my understanding with how others understand it.

Here is the way I understand it:
(1) Jesus died to save all people.
(2) We are not saved from anything,

From or out of death

but rather for a purpose: to be a priestly nation to God.

Maybe we were even created  for that.
It's a possible meaning of "in His image".

(3) Those who overcome self-will will be raised in the 1^st resurrection and reign with Jesus for the millennium, receiving the greatest blessings.

That's my understanding.

(4) All the rest will be raised in the 2^nd resurrection after the millennium to be judged by there deeds at the Great White Throne.
     (a) Some will be found with their names written in the Lamb's book of life, and rewarded.
     (b) The rest will be sent to the figurative lake of fire, the nature of which we are not told.

Imo a lot about the lake is told. But there is a lot of disagreement on what exactly it means.

(5) The corrective punishment of the lake of fire will purify those who are sent there, so that they also can come into God's presence.

You just answered 4b.

(6) All things will then be reconciled to God, and he will be all-in-all.

You may like to read this: http://tentmaker.org/forum/word-studies/conciliation-and-reconciliation/

Some of the questions lingering in my mind are:
(1) Will there be a great jubilee and where does the great jubilee fit into this?

Yes. Slaves were set free at a Jubilee. ALL their debts were cancelled and their land was returned. --> Land can't be taken away for more than 50 years no matter the debt. Land also stands for inherritance.

(2) Is it really correct to say that all people will be saved? or that the faithful will be saved, and the rest reconciled?

Even then they are saved from being dead for ever.
Factoid: In the the Wycliff Bible (IIRC) Jesus is never called saviour but Healer.

(3) Or is it correct to say that we are all already saved, but the unfaithful will need to be purified in the lake of fire?

The Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world. A verse that could spark a nice debate. I think it simply means that Father had His plans ready before Gen 1:1. We aren't saved right now; but the plan guarantees we will. If I guarantee you $miljon your are not a millionaire until you actually receive the $

(4) Will the overcomers who are resurrected in the 1^st resurrection also be judged at the Great White Throne?

EVERYONE, including Jesus, was/will be judged. Judging is comparing things against a law. If a judge declares a defendant not guilty that person was judged.  We can only say Jesus was without sin if we compare His actions against the Law. So it's not possible to be called a saint without being judged. Judgement isn't always negative. IIRC king David even begged God to be judged.

I realized that much of this is subject to personal beliefs and opinions, and I would love to hear from you.
Please use scripture to base your beliefs on.
Thanks so much for your input!

Opinions I have plenty. If they are facts a Higher authority shall judge  :LH:

[jbertonbounds]

Thanks for your input, Whitewings.

[Tom]

Sometimes things seem a little blurry to me and I have a hard time sorting it all out.
I was never taught these things by the ET's, so much of this is still new to me.
I would love to compare my understanding with how others understand it.

Here is the way I understand it:
(1) Jesus died to save all people.
(2) We are not saved from anything, but rather for a purpose: to be a priestly nation to God.
(3) Those who overcome self-will will be raised in the 1^st resurrection and reign with Jesus for the millennium, receiving the greatest blessings.
(4) All the rest will be raised in the 2^nd resurrection after the millennium to be judged by there deeds at the Great White Throne.
     (a) Some will be found with their names written in the Lamb's book of life, and rewarded.
     (b) The rest will be sent to the figurative lake of fire, the nature of which we are not told.
(5) The corrective punishment of the lake of fire will purify those who are sent there, so that they also can come into God's presence.
(6) All things will then be reconciled to God, and he will be all-in-all.

Some of the questions lingering in my mind are:
(1) Will there be a great jubilee and where does the great jubilee fit into this?
(2) Is it really correct to say that all people will be saved? or that the faithful will be saved, and the rest reconciled?
(3) Or is it correct to say that we are all already saved, but the unfaithful will need to be purified in the lake of fire?
(4) Will the overcomers who are resurrected in the 1^st resurrection also be judged at the Great White Throne?

I realized that much of this is subject to personal beliefs and opinions, and I would love to hear from you.
Please use scripture to base your beliefs on.
Thanks so much for your input!

All mankind will be saved from death (1 Timothy 4:10) while all on earth and in heaven will be reconciled to God (Colossians 1:20).