Are All Universalists "Old Folk?"

[BirdSong]

We are few and far between but we are out there hahaha! I just turned 29, I've been a believer in "UR" for about 4 or 5 years now. Misszoolander on here just turned 22. And as far as I can tell she lives more of a Christ like life than many of the "old folk" I know.

But in truth there is no age in the Spirit. :)
:HeartThrob:

Wow! God opened your eyes at 24. Amen!  :dsunny:  What led to your revelation at such a young age?

I just could not wrap my mind around an eternal hell where people were abandoned forever. I knew my Father, I had met Him and it did not add up. After my daughter was born I knew there was no way I would ever abandon her, no matter what kinds of awful sins she might commit in her life. I prayed and asked God to show me if hell was real and if it was to show me how it was good because I just couldn't see it. He showed me! It started off with a link on the side of my email. It was a question, it asked "Is hell real?" I clicked on it and was completely blown away by what I found. A few days later I went to the library and picked up three books. None of them had any hint of teaching universal salvation on the covers but when I got them home and read them they all either hinted at or openly taught UR. I was like ok God I get it!! Lol. I did a lot of research and found tentmaker and the rest is history as they say. :)

Great testimony L! Praise God! I am still amazed how young you were.  I had a similar experience, but not until 8 or so years ago when I was much older.  I avoided thinking about hell altogether, because I thought something was wrong with the way humans understood God's judgment, because deep down I knew God's justice was perfect and fair, even when my father, an agnostic, died when I was 12. My Mom was the religious (Southern Baptist) side of the family, even though my parents had a wonderful relationship. Pete was an atheist up until he was 24. He's an astrophysicist, and back in college his god was science, until God got his attention dramatically when he was studying for a physics exam one night. Has he told you yet? Incredible testimony.

[mplsfitter539]

He's an astrophysicist, and back in college his god was science, until God got his attention dramatically when he was studying for a physics exam one night. Has he told you yet?
No he has not told me yet..........but I am waiting.

[anna274]

I'm 63, became a Christian at about 27, got into UR in my mid-40's.  I don't feel old yet, except that I tire more easily than when young.

I'll be celebrating 75 years of believing God's Glorious Plan to bring ALL to be with Him for all eternity.  I'll be 79 on April 22 -- so it seems I am the oldest member of this forum and the youngest (4 1/2 years old) in terms of when God revealed Himself as a God of love.

12 The righteous shall flourish like the palm tree: he shall grow like a cedar in Lebanon.

13 Those that be planted in the house of the Lord shall flourish in the courts of our God.

14 They shall still bring forth fruit in old age; they shall be fat and flourishing;

15 To shew that the Lord is upright: he is my rock, and there is no unrighteousness in him.

--Psalm 92

I am a hymnaholic and it's all your fault, Molly...  well rather than blame you, I often ask God to BLESS you abundantly--   you mentioned in a much earlier post (months ago when I first started posting old hymns) that hymns were used to teach Scriptural truths to the people... and for me, hymns are such a delightful way to continue to grow in grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ...

Many, many thanks Molly for the many scripture references you share.  Yes, I have a hymn that speaks to the above Scripture


GOD OF MY CHILDHOOD AND MY YOUTH  Watts, 1719

God of my childhood and my youth,
The guide of all my days,
I wish to declare Thy heavenly truth,
And tell of all Thy wondrous ways.

Wilt Thou forsake my hoary hairs,
And leave my fainting heart?
Who shall sustain my sinking years,
If God my strength depart?

Let me Thy power and truth proclaim
To the surviving age;
And leave a savor of Thy name
When I shall quit the stage.

The land of silence and of death
Attends my next remove;
O may these poor remains of breath
Teach the wide world Thy love!

Thy righteousness is deep and high,
Unsearchable Thy deeds;
Thy glory spreads beyond the sky,
And all my praise exceeds.

Oft have I heard the threatenings roar,
And oft endured the grief;
And when Thy hand has pressed me sore,
THY GRACE WAS MY RELIEF.

By long experience I have known
Thy sovereign power to save;
At Thy command I venture down
Securely to the grace.

When I lie buried deep in dust,
My flesh shall be Thy care;
These withering limbs with Thee I trust,
To raise them strong and fair.

[BirdSong]

He's an astrophysicist, and back in college his god was science, until God got his attention dramatically when he was studying for a physics exam one night. Has he told you yet?
No he has not told me yet..........but I am waiting.

Well, I'll ask him. He's a bit disillusioned with communication through writing these days, unless it is strictly for information - "data" as he says. He likes person to person because he believes writing paints a very inaccurate portrait of someone's "true" personality and "spirit", but I'll ask him.  :Peace2:

[lomarah]

I would love to hear his testimony as well!!

[Lloyd]

One (Josh), who is Pete's good friend, was brought up by rigid fundamentalist, turn-or-burn parents, and he NEVER believed AT ALL even in his 'forced' church going youth.

I'm over 60. I was lucky like Pete to have never feared God or Hell. My Mom is kind of fundamentalist. Dad was just an obedient Catholic.

I always liked science and after my first year in college I became an atheist for a year, until I realized I didn't really know for certain any of the things science claimed, but came to see that consciousness is what is really known and the physical world must exist within it, rather than consciousness existing within the physical world. Then I was able to see that my limited consciousness must be part of a greater consciousness and that ultimately there must be infinite consciousness, as well as infinite power, which is God. It was only in more recent years, though, that I noticed that Caring, or Love, is really what gives consciousness and power any meaning. I believe that's what Jesus' message is, Caring for all, which he taught by his example of self-sacrifice.

[lomarah]

Wow Lloyd that's awesome.  :HeartThrob:

[reFORMer]

Those who understand the salvation of all as truth are more mature than those who consider it error and divisive; but, the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Truth Who, by quickening our awareness with newness of life, restores our youth.

[BirdSong]

It was only in more recent years, though, that I noticed that Caring, or Love, is really what gives consciousness and power any meaning. I believe that's what Jesus' message is, Caring for all, which he taught by his example of self-sacrifice.

I agree. As simple and cliche as it may sound, when I had..... later in life... the epiphany that God IS LOVE, that is when I finally "got it." Some may say, "Of course God is love, that is the most obvious truth there is." Well, it wasn't to me. Sure, I read, and even taught others for decades, that God is love, but I never "REALLY" thought deeply about it.

I never truly contemplated that God is love with the mind of the Spirit. In the past, I used to see 'love' as simply being one of God's attributes - one of His characteristics, rather than being God Himself. God is Spirit, and that Spirit is what human beings refer to as "LOVE."

I realized that when humans experience love, they are experiencing God, whether they are aware of it or not, or whether they are believers or not. People are raised and taught from a very young age to understand love as being an emotion that we all experience as humans (one of many human emotions). What we are not taught is that LOVE IS GOD. That so-called emotion.... that feeling of love we experience IS GOD. Love is not just WHAT God "does," Love is WHO God IS.

I used to think love was simply what God DOES....not Who God IS. I saw love as a 'verb,' not a 'Proper Noun.' This revelation was the major turning point in my whole life.

[firstborn888]

That's great, sound like nice people.  Unfortunately, good works and good character don't save us. 

A tree is known by it's fruit. I submit to you that Christ is manifesting Himself as much through some atheists as through some Christian". I don't know why that is hard for some to accept - I know it was very very hard for me. Why do you think that is? 

[mplsfitter539]

That's great, sound like nice people.  Unfortunately, good works and good character don't save us. 

A tree is known by it's fruit. I submit to you that Christ is manifesting Himself as much through some atheists as through some Christian". I don't know why that is hard for some to accept - I know it was very very hard for me. Why do you think that is?

God can do anything that He sees fit to do that is why. Sorry but it is just that simple God is sovereign and does what ever He pleases of whatever pleases Him.

[lomarah]

That's great, sound like nice people.  Unfortunately, good works and good character don't save us. 

A tree is known by it's fruit. I submit to you that Christ is manifesting Himself as much through some atheists as through some Christian". I don't know why that is hard for some to accept - I know it was very very hard for me. Why do you think that is?

I have seen this as well. In many cases some of the least loving people I have come across were Christian. It is not their "fault" - they truly don't know what they are doing. (I know from personal experience!) It is certainly not always the case and I know many loving people who call themselves christians, but I agree wholeheartedly that a tree is known by it's fruit. I think that often nonreligious people have an easier time just loving people because they aren't usually concerned with what everyone else believes. (Doctrine.) When a person is free to love regardless of what another person believes, amazing things happen.

[marie glen]

I have seen this as well. In many cases some of the least loving people I have come across were Christian. It is not their "fault" - they truly don't know what they are doing. (I know from personal experience!) It is certainly not always the case and I know many loving people who call themselves christians, but I agree wholeheartedly that a tree is known by it's fruit. I think that often nonreligious people have an easier time just loving people because they aren't usually concerned with what everyone else believes. (Doctrine.) When a person is free to love regardless of what another person believes, amazing things happen.

..amen!! plus they don't worry about what the other person does or doesn't do.. Though I do find you have to either be non political or of a certain political party, or most folks, these days, will dismiss you as totally irrelevant. That is to say, I'm not feelin' the love from nonChristians either. I'm not saying we should conform, our opinions, heaven forbid, but am - just sayin' - as the expression goes. :gsmile:  - "When a person is free to love regardless of what another person believes, amazing things happen." -- I totally agree!! :mthumbsup: :mthumbsup:

[marie glen]

It was only in more recent years, though, that I noticed that Caring, or Love, is really what gives consciousness and power any meaning. I believe that's what Jesus' message is, Caring for all, which he taught by his example of self-sacrifice.

I realized that when humans experience love, they are experiencing God, whether they are aware of it or not, or whether they are believers or not. People are raised and taught from a very young age to understand love as being an emotion that we all experience as humans (one of many human emotions). What we are not taught is that LOVE IS GOD. That so-called emotion.... that feeling of love we experience IS GOD. Love is not just WHAT God "does," Love is WHO God IS.

I used to think love was simply what God DOES....not Who God IS. I saw love as a 'verb,' not a 'Proper Noun.' This revelation was the major turning point in my whole life.

Amen! Very well said!! :mthumbsup: :gsmile:

[BirdSong]

That's great, sound like nice people.  Unfortunately, good works and good character don't save us. 

A tree is known by it's fruit. I submit to you that Christ is manifesting Himself as much through some atheists as through some Christian". I don't know why that is hard for some to accept - I know it was very very hard for me. Why do you think that is?

I have seen this as well. In many cases some of the least loving people I have come across were Christian. It is not their "fault" - they truly don't know what they are doing. (I know from personal experience!) It is certainly not always the case and I know many loving people who call themselves christians, but I agree wholeheartedly that a tree is known by it's fruit. I think that often nonreligious people have an easier time just loving people because they aren't usually concerned with what everyone else believes. (Doctrine.) When a person is free to love regardless of what another person believes, amazing things happen.

Amen Lo! That's the key in a nutshell. Most Christians don't realize that God doesn't care one iota about what humans "intellectually accept" about Him. If He did, He would have given us far more detailed, scientific information about Himself, and provided us with a far greater intellectual capacity - as opposed to our savage, animalistic, primitive, reptilian brains. But intellectual acceptance and knowledge regarding 'this doctrine' or 'that doctrine' is irrelevant in God's eyes - and this misunderstanding has misled Christians for 1900+ years, and is responsible for the 'fear' gospels of eternal torment and annihilation. Most people think that claiming to believe "IN" God, or claiming to believe some doctrine "about" God is what saves them.  They do not realize that intellectual knowledge "about" God has nothing to do "loving each other, as He loved us" (Jesus' only command - John 15:12,17 ) - and "trusting" the 'Spirit of Truth' within us, and what He writes "in our minds and on our hearts" (Hebrews 8:10-11).

[jabcat]

That's great, sound like nice people.  Unfortunately, good works and good character don't save us. 

A tree is known by it's fruit. I submit to you that Christ is manifesting Himself as much through some atheists as through some Christian". I don't know why that is hard for some to accept - I know it was very very hard for me. Why do you think that is?

God can do anything that He sees fit to do that is why. Sorry but it is just that simple God is sovereign and does what ever He pleases of whatever pleases Him.

Blessings.  Agreed.  IMO, we can go too far either way i.e., "this is what it says" period, or, oh it's all about love.   There's a view that attempts to take in the whole counsel.  I'm lousy at it, but it's in there somewhere :).   I.e., what's the truth - including love, but not excluding other needful things.  The Holy Spirit sure breathed a lot of things for us to know, learn, teach, share, in the scriptures.  There's more there than love, and there's more there than Law.

Actually, the scriptures do teach having a proper knowledge of God/Christ, how to really know Him.  I don't believe it's just through intellect, nor just through emotion.  Jesus is the Savior, no other name under heaven whereby men must be saved.  (We can only come to Him unless the Spirit draw us - so yes, it's in God's hands.)

As indicated in the rest of the post from which the part was quoted, I'm not strictly talking about God manifesting Himself.  He used Pharaoh.  He used a donkey.  He can use the rocks and stones to cry out and praise Him.  I don't believe there's any indication Pharaoh or the donkey or stones were spiritually reborn. :)  I was talking more about the spiritual new birth, i.e., what it takes to be "saved"/born again/spiritually reborn.   

"But how can they call on him to save them unless they believe in him? And how can they believe in him if they have never heard about him? And how can they hear about him unless someone tells them?"  Romans 10:14.

[anna274]

re: There's a view that attempts to take in the whole counsel...   it's in there somewhere.  Agreed. 

and re:  Spirit of truth ...writes it in our minds and in our hearts... Agreed,

but I because I've belonged to several charismatic prayer groups years ago and often times I asked "What if what you say the Holy Spirit wrote in your mind and heart conflicts with what I say He has written in my mind and heart?

I became more and more convinced that the Holy Spirit uses the written word to write in my mind and in my heart (memory bank)... 

speaking of lousy :)... I've learned that man cannot delouse man... only the Holy Spirit can and I continue to believe that He uses the written word--- physical written word to reveal spiritual truths...

[jabcat]

but I because I've belonged to several charismatic prayer groups years ago and often times I asked "What if what you say the Holy Spirit wrote in your mind and heart conflicts with what I say He has written in my mind and heart?

Amen.  There are a zillion views.  God speaks to us.  We also have our own filters, carnal minds at work that interfere, personalities with our own quirks - and active imaginations.  Also, the deceiver is at work, whispering in our ear.   So then your next point, IMO, right on!  :)

I became more and more convinced that the Holy Spirit uses the written word to write in my mind and in my heart (memory bank)... 

speaking of lousy :)... I've learned that man cannot delouse man... only the Holy Spirit can and I continue to believe that He uses the written word--- physical written word to reveal spiritual truths...

Amen.  IMO, satan would like nothing better than the church toss the scriptures for pop psychology ("I'm OK, You're OK"), feelings/intuition ("all we need is love/Imagine"), or, for the church to ONLY go by what is written and dismiss the Spirit ("having a form of Godliness but denying the power thereof").     We've done the latter for many years, God will help us to not all drift into the former.   :2c:

[sheila]

   little children may not understand much..but they know what love is..they expierence this love through

  parents[some poor children never know love in this world] So, it is the foundation..that understanding

  is built on..  Wisdom from Above...and the Jerualem Above..begets children of Love nd Understanding.

   the very reason Jesus spoke of the phirisees nd sadducees making someone a proselyte and them

becoming twice the child of hell..is on the principle that pharisee's did not love[foundation] and did not

understand[forgive Faather they know Not!]Blind teachers.

  my people perish through lack of knowledge.  Knowing the one true God..and being taught of Him..protects

  what parent..who dearly loves and cherishes their child..does not warn,educate the child of the

dangers in this world?Many a loving child has approached a vicious dog on a chain with arms open to

to embrace the creature in love..to be savagely mauled or killed.Taking candy from strangers is a real

danger.  What parent hasn't instructed the child not to bop the sister or brother on their head,and to share?


The commands have always been to protect life and foster well-being of the child..not to destroy the child.

  to foment a loving kind orderly peaceful home.

   Love never fails..but there re wicked about that have no love of God in them, that spitefully use and

abuse...and a loving Father will educate His children with a wisdom from above. 

   

   

[jabcat]

 :2thumbs:    post sheila.    one thumb for love, the other for speaking the truth.   :laughing7:   IMO, there's the balance, and the motive (out of love, to help). 


(God's been dealing with me like this - I can share what I understand as the truth - even very clear, specific scrips.  But I can either (carnally) slam them at someone in an attempt to control, be "right", and "win", or I can (with His help) share them gently, in love, hoping to reconcile/assist.  As Lomarah shared from Card the other day - "the motive of the heart".  :2c:)    Create in me a clean heart.

[marie glen]

It's a sticky wicket alright! One says these verses mean this, and another says, these verses mean that.

(Malachi 3:16) "Then those who revered the Lord spoke with one another. The Lord took note and listened, and a book of remembrance was written before him of those who revered the Lord and thought on his name."

I'm thinking a key is to be able to disagree on these secondary matters and topics, and able to talk and discuss them peacefully even joyfully. I'm pretty sure when all is said and done, we'll find each one of us was 'right' about some things and wrong about some things.

Perhaps one reason the denominations are in decline is because they cannot accept any new ideas. After all if a group only accepts their own particular brand and slant on all things, won't that group become stale and stagnant? Well, maybe not if they have the free flowing stream of the Holy Spirit, that is! But it's the same Spirit which makes the bond of peace between those passionate about speaking to one another about the Lord and His Word.. :2c:

[marie glen]

p.s ..all, i'm sure like to communicate their ideas.. perhaps if all in the body of Jesus could think of it as sharing ideas rather than debating ideas.. I think sometimes, even, ideas which seem unblendable, may indeed simply be different pieces of the puzzle/question..  :2c: :gsmile:

[eaglesway]

When you move from the outside of a circle to its core, the closer you get to center the more of the entire sphere becomes visible and integrated as one.

Jesus the Messiah is our core.

Christ in you the hope of glory.

The more our understanding is anchored in the very KNOWING OF JESUS< THE IMAGE OF THE INVISIBLE GOD> and being conformed/transformed into His likeness.....manifesting His nature and love and kindness and truth, the MORE OF THE SEEMINGLY UNNCONNECTED POINTS ON THE EDGE OF THE SPHERE COME TOGETHER INTO THE MIND OF CHRIST> which is rooted and grounded in love. From any point on the skin of the sphere, there is a line that will lead one to the center.

The law(surface of the sphere) is a tutor to lead us to Christ. The LETTER keeps killing us till we come to kno and be led by the Spirit.

Christ and Him crucified is the key to the flowing through the matrix/mystery.

I am determined to know nothing among you but Christ and Him crucified.

We donot come into the unity of the faith, unto a mature man, unto the measure of the stature of the son of God, no longer tossed to and from by every wind of doctrine by swallowing the whole sphere like a snake opening its jaws to swallow a rabbit.

We grow into the mind of Christ by moving to the core, finding there a cross, embracing it, and then following the voice that speaks from within.

It is written, Man cannot live by bread alone but by every word that COMES(not came) from the mouth of God.

Today, if you hear His voice.....harden not your heart

[sheila]

Amen,EW..the city of light with the 12 foundation stone jewels of light..can be likened to a

  kaleidescope as the coloured lights are pulle d to center,eh?  the city does not need the sun or the

  moon to shine on it,for the glory of God gives it light and the Lamb is it's light.[source/core]

   Oh Wheelwork!!! wheels within wheels!!!    a rainbow resembling an emerald,encircled the throne

   also before the throne there waswhat looked like a sea of glass..clear as crystal[no longer seeing

through a glass darkly]

[anna274]

p.s ..all, i'm sure like to communicate their ideas.. perhaps if all in the body of Jesus could think of it as sharing ideas rather than debating ideas.. I think sometimes, even, ideas which seem unblendable, may indeed simply be different pieces of the puzzle/question..  :2c: :gsmile:

Thank you Marie... sometimes, I am so focused on what I am learning, enjoying, pondering that I miss some very encouraging, comforting posts...  today, the BIG issue for me was that God who sometimes seems quite fierce in the Old Testament is actually a Father  who has always LOVED the world... (John 3:16) and I plan to find all the verses in the OT that speak to that everlasting love.

But I did read most of the posts... and I agree with you, at least in my case... many things that the body shares on this forum helps me connect some more dots... blessings on all