Are babies and retarded people saved by default?

[jbertonbounds]

:Chinscratch:  OK.  Here's the deal.  All my life I have heard numerous teachings about how a child who dies does not go to hell if he has not yet reached the "age of accountability." 

Now I know there is no such thing as hell.  But where in the world did they get that "age of accountability" stuff?  I have never seen anything in the scriptures that would suggest such a concept (assuming I did believe in hell and the age of accountability, which I don't).  Of course not all ET's believe in the age of accountability.  I had a girlfriend once who told me her parents did not go to church.  They had gone years before, but then they had a baby that died, and their pastor told them that their baby could not have gone to heaven.  How cruel, indeed!

Maybe this is just one more reason the hell concept is null and void to start with - nothing about it makes sense!

[misszoolander]

The age of accountability is there to make the notion of hell a bit more bearable for fundies.

Is it biblical? In a sense yes, I can see were they get there reasoning from, but the thing is it's only half truth. It's true infants do not go to hell, it's full truth that "The age of accountability" has NOTHING to do with it.
What it really boils down too is the grace and mercy of our Lord and Saviour, which is a free gift.

One thing that led me to UR was when I herd a preacher declaring and trying to convince us the audience that babies and the unborn go to hell. How anti Christ! How perverse! The guy who was preaching was talking about how he had two children who are most definitely in hell.   :shout: :btantrum: :BangHead:

Such hideous doctrines and messages can only come from the father of lies.
I believe when it comes to the disabled and mentally ill, God will overcompensate them when the time comes, these people are in the hands of the Lord, who I trust is a good and just God.  :HeartThrob:

[jbertonbounds]

Misszoo, :thumbsup:
It is comforting to know that God is just and good. 
That might be a good question to ask ET's:  "Where in the scripture does one find the doctrine of the 'age of accountability?' "
Knowing they won't have an answer that makes any sense. :winkgrin:

[ded2daworld]

Missz said. "One thing that led me to UR was when I herd a preacher declaring and trying to convince us the audience that babies and the unborn go to hell. How anti Christ! How perverse! The guy who was preaching was talking about how he had two children who are most definitely in hell."
Well, if they were living with him he was correct :laughing7: Can you imagine this guy for a father??

Yes the "age of accountability" is found nowhere in the Bible. Closest thing is when Israel was about to start on their 40 year trek in the wilderness of Sin. If one had sided not to attack and was over the age of 20, they were condemned to die before the 40 years were up. If younger than 20, they would not die in the wilderness.

Even ECT people cannot fathom or tolerate a sadistic, psychotic God that would forever torture retarded, real young, those that never heard, etc. So they make up "age of accountability" to soften their sadistic, psychotic God of "love" Some go so far as deciding for themselves who God is gonna "let off the hook" so to speak and who he has created a "special" hell for people like Hitler and people that cut them off in traffic. :laughing7:

[jabcat]

"saved by default"


Since every knee will bow and every tongue confess Jesus is Lord to the glory of the Father;  I  believe those mentioned in the OP will have no need of any corrective discipline as will many others, but will "simply" be given the wherewithall to recognize, accept, and proclaim Jesus as Savior.  They'll be in an immortal body with the mind of Christ.  I believe it will be instant tranformation/"conversion" for them.   :2c:

[Lazarus Short]

Jesus said to allow the little children to come to Him, and that to enter the Kingdom, we needed to be like them.

As far as the retarded, the only people who ever sang to me in public about Jesus were at least half a bubble off plumb.  I smiled at both as they sang.  Jesus was their whole reality, and more power to them...

[mplsfitter539]

The entire human race is the life of one man. As the human race passes through the ages of time the man (human race) matures with each step. The age of accountability is not found in the bible but there will be an "age" (period of time) for accountability when the end comes.
Revelation 20

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

[bushy]

It seems to me this question is based on the thinking that we have to save ourselves when the truth is that every last person in the world is saved by the blood of Christ.
Also the word 'saved' means different things but nobody is ever saved from hell. There is no such place.

[mplsfitter539]

 :iagree:

[Lazarus Short]

 :iagree: :iagree:

[sheila]

nope...they are saved the same way s all the rest of us, the blood of the Lamb nd free gift

[jbertonbounds]

"saved by default"


Since every knee will bow and every tongue confess Jesus is Lord to the glory of the Father;  I  believe those mentioned in the OP will have no need of any corrective discipline as will many others, but will "simply" be given the wherewithall to recognize, accept, and proclaim Jesus as Savior.  They'll be in an immortal body with the mind of Christ.  I believe it will be instant tranformation/"conversion" for them.   :2c:

Beautiful point, Jabcat.  Love it.

[jbertonbounds]

Jesus said to allow the little children to come to Him, and that to enter the Kingdom, we needed to be like them.

As far as the retarded, the only people who ever sang to me in public about Jesus were at least half a bubble off plumb.  I smiled at both as they sang.  Jesus was their whole reality, and more power to them...

Hey Lazarus,
This really made me smile.  Sometimes I think the mentally handicapped are the ones who are blest!  Thanks for sharing this.  :cloud9:

[jbertonbounds]

It seems to me this question is based on the thinking that we have to save ourselves when the truth is that every last person in the world is saved by the blood of Christ.
Also the word 'saved' means different things but nobody is ever saved from hell. There is no such place.

Right on, Bushy.  We are not saved from hell, we are saved for a purpose.  I believe this question makes a point that the ETs' "gospel of fear" makes no sense.  The belief in the age of accountability requires an ET-type doctrine of a "cruel and unusual" God who roasts his victims.  I believe someone has already stated that the age of accountability was designed to buffer the ET nonsense of a hell in the first place.  I mean, think about how God made us as weak humans, placed us into a world of temptations, and then provided salvation.  The doctrine of hell does not fit into that scenario, unless you believe that God intended to torture his creation to start with.  But God is a God of love.  Love does not torture! :dsunny:

[lastpost]

My belief is that unknown to the consciousness of so named retarded people, brave souls can be found in bodies of those same retarded people. They have chosen, out of love for the Redeemer God they wish to emulate,  to battle through their one short life without the advantages we take for granted.

And children - Those little flowers who leave us so early are never alone and, having touched the material for a brief moment, they carry on their growth in a beautiful Land, in the loving care of those who may have been childless on earth but wanted so desperately to have a child to call their own. Well, God's magnificent Love has taken care of that, of this there is no doubt in my mind or heart.

The Love of God is more beautiful than any human can envisage.

[scarletwren]

I'm sure my view will seem strange to many but I often thought, usually while in the shower, when I was an ET'er lol, how unfair it was really to bring a child to heaven when that child didn't have any choices to make, didn't have to face temptation after having been made aware that certain choices were wrong etc.  Even after becoming a UR, I had questions about how ANYONE who was imperfect in this life becomes 'righteous.'  I just don't see the purpose of automatically perfecting people who were clueless, or lacked empathy, or sympathy, even if they believed in Christ.  I don't believe we're made immortal UNTIL we have much more knowledge of God's plan, etc.

The only thing that seems logical to me is that everyone but the overcomer is raised in another mortal body and must continue the process towards being overcomers, pretty much from where they were when they left this world, albeit in a younger mortal body if a mentally challenged person was aged upon the first death (God will do what is right in that regard).  There would be no overcoming for babies and the mentally challenged if they immediately go to some 'heavenly' place where ithere s nothing evil to overcome.  How in the world do they see the wonders of Jesus' grace without having gone through the lessons the majority of us did?  If God will just make them cognizant immortals without having had to understand that they could do evil as well as endure evil, then why doesn't He do that for everyone and just have made us with memories or knowledge of all this without us having to go through it experientially?  My understanding is because in His wisdom, we will ALL be salted with fire....ALL.  One might say that experiencing a death through disease or violence is salting.  And tho that is true to an extent, it doesn't endue the child with the knowledge that he was capable of a certain amount of violence if he/she would have lived on earth longer.  It just leaves a lot unlearned.  We are saved by grace yes.  By grace Jesus died so we could be brought out of death into God's life. But pulling a pig out of a mudhole doesn't make him a silk purse.  I firmly believe that each and every one must pass through a period of maturing and understanding through a series of trials and tribulations until one comes to the Full knowledge of evil and good.  Not that we each have to go through every trial every one goes through, I believe that some will be resurrected to a lighter judgment than others, depending upon our position at death.  And by judgment I mean the path needed to get us to the destination, what will perfect us.

This is what I see for the majority upon resurrection, and, subsequently, I do not believe in after-death consciousness until the resurrection.  I believe many will experience a second death but will not have to 'sleep' between the second death and resurrection to immortality.  I do believe that even those who receive their inheritance of an immortal body will still learn and progress, but I think there's a certain point we must attain to before we receive that.

This is NOT reincarnation.  I believe we are resurrected in a future age exactly as we were at our death, not born again as different people during this present age so that we have to reconcile many different lives into one conscious being. 

This just makes the most sense to me. 

[micah7:9]

 :dsunny: :dsunny: :HeartThrob: HE is GOOD!

[BirdSong]

:Chinscratch:  OK.  Here's the deal.  All my life I have heard numerous teachings about how a child who dies does not go to hell if he has not yet reached the "age of accountability." 

Now I know there is no such thing as hell.  But where in the world did they get that "age of accountability" stuff?  I have never seen anything in the scriptures that would suggest such a concept (assuming I did believe in hell and the age of accountability, which I don't).  Of course not all ET's believe in the age of accountability.  I had a girlfriend once who told me her parents did not go to church.  They had gone years before, but then they had a baby that died, and their pastor told them that their baby could not have gone to heaven.  How cruel, indeed!

Maybe this is just one more reason the hell concept is null and void to start with - nothing about it makes sense!

We (all of humanity) are saved by Christ and His work on the Cross. That means we have absolutely NOTHING to do with our salvation. Salvation is not something we have to be concerned with because Christ achieved that for ALL. Our "deeds" throughout our lives DO matter because they will be judged by God - Who IS a consuming fire (God's Spirit = love - see Hebrews 12:29). The parts of our lives that are "hay, stubble, wood, etc." will be refined out as dross (Malachi 3:2-3), but we are "saved as by fire" (1 Corinthians 3:15) along with the parts of our lives that are "gold, silver, etc.".

There is no "dross" to refine out of infants, or those who remain as toddlers due to a mental disability.

Either way we are SAVED by what CHRIST DID - not our own efforts.  :dsunny:

[jbertonbounds]

Birdsong -

LIKE

[mplsfitter539]

 

We (all of humanity) are saved by Christ and His work on the Cross. That means we have absolutely NOTHING to do with our salvation. Salvation is not something we have to be concerned with because Christ achieved that for ALL. Our "deeds" throughout our lives DO matter because they will be judged by God - Who IS a consuming fire (God's Spirit = love - see Hebrews 12:29). The parts of our lives that are "hay, stubble, wood, etc." will be refined out as dross (Malachi 3:2-3), but we are "saved as by fire" (1 Corinthians 3:15) along with the parts of our lives that are "gold, silver, etc.".

There is no "dross" to refine out of infants, or those who remain as toddlers due to a mental disability.

Either way we are SAVED by what CHRIST DID - not our own efforts.  :dsunny:

While it is true salvation is a given we directly play a role in when salvation takes place in our own individual age/time.
1 Corinthians 15
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Salvation is only the beginning of restoration.

[BirdSong]

Missz said. "One thing that led me to UR was when I herd a preacher declaring and trying to convince us the audience that babies and the unborn go to hell. How anti Christ! How perverse! The guy who was preaching was talking about how he had two children who are most definitely in hell."


Well, if they were living with him he was correct :laughing7: Can you imagine this guy for a father??

:laughing7: That's hilarious ded!

Wow Miss Z - that is one seriously disturbed preacher. I've never heard anyone that extreme before. I've seen some videos of wackadoodle preachers saying that mentally disabled adults, who do not "accept Christ" have no excuse, but I haven't heard the babies monologue yet. The scary thing about that is people return and continue to listen to him. Preachers like that should be under surveillance by the Feds.

[Lazarus Short]

Preachers like that should be under surveillance by the Feds.

I'm sure some preachers are, especially the non-501(c)(3) kind.

[mplsfitter539]

Preachers like that should be under surveillance by the Feds.

I'm sure some preachers are, especially the non-501(c)(3) kind.

Good point Laz. Most Christians don't know or understand that the church they attend on Sunday morning is a 501(c)(3) corporation. IE under the rule of the federal government.
Me thinks God gives this status two thumbs down  :banana:

[CHB]

"saved by default"


Since every knee will bow and every tongue confess Jesus is Lord to the glory of the Father;  I  believe those mentioned in the OP will have no need of any corrective discipline as will many others, but will "simply" be given the wherewithall to recognize, accept, and proclaim Jesus as Savior.  They'll be in an immortal body with the mind of Christ.  I believe it will be instant tranformation/"conversion" for them.   :2c:

Makes me wonder if this wasn't what Jesus was pointing out when he spoke about the parable of the labourers that was hired for a penny? Some worked longer that others but all received the same pay (Matt. chapter 20).

CHB

[mplsfitter539]

"saved by default"


Since every knee will bow and every tongue confess Jesus is Lord to the glory of the Father;  I  believe those mentioned in the OP will have no need of any corrective discipline as will many others, but will "simply" be given the wherewithall to recognize, accept, and proclaim Jesus as Savior.  They'll be in an immortal body with the mind of Christ.  I believe it will be instant tranformation/"conversion" for them.   :2c:

Makes me wonder if this wasn't what Jesus was pointing out when he spoke about the parable of the labourers that was hired for a penny? Some worked longer that others but all received the same pay (Matt. chapter 20).

CHB

That is to say the reward at the end is the same but think how much more the ones who worked longer for the same reward will appreciate it all the more.