OT Wrath vs. NT Love - Deeper meanings

[Cindi]

About Jehrico....

When I consider God orchestrating the taking of the city of Jerhico and the later decree concerning the Amorites and the Caananites, and all the rest of the "ites"... I simply can not reconcile it with the image of God I see depicted in Jesus.  When the disciples wanted to call down fire on those who did not welcome them, Jesus rebuked them and said "you don't know what manner of spirit you are of."  To me, to think that the same God we see in Jesus would....centuries before....call for the murder of the entire city....kill them all, man, woman and child.....and all the animals too....take all the gold for himself....then burn the city down.  It just does not add up.   And to reduce the carnage, the pillage and the plundering, to terms like "possess the land" whitewashes and sanitizes what happened there.  And to explain it taking place as some kind of picture to point out a spiritual truth is to trivialize the very real human beings who suffered and died there.  Perhaps Joshua thought he heard God tell him to lead the children of Israel to "possess" the land but I am more inclined to believe that is just what Joshua thought he heard....because that's what he wanted to hear.  Just my opinion...

Cindi.....

Mercy Not Sacrifice

[Gizmo]

Seeker,
I agree.  He destroyed the law written on stone tablets.  All of us have His law on our hearts.  Keeping or not keeping does not make us right with Him...what makes us right with God is Jesus!
Peace,
Giz

[AbbasChild]

To all who struggle with this issue, I would recommend this writing:

http://members.ozemail.com.au/~moorea/goodness_love_virtue.html

There are some things I don't agree with 100%, but it has been a great help to understand a few things, Father has shown me at the beginning of my walk.

[arcticmonster2003]

edit

[Redlettervoice]

About Jehrico....

When I consider God orchestrating the taking of the city of Jerhico and the later decree concerning the Amorites and the Caananites, and all the rest of the "ites"... I simply can not reconcile it with the image of God I see depicted in Jesus.  When the disciples wanted to call down fire on those who did not welcome them, Jesus rebuked them and said "you don't know what manner of spirit you are of."  To me, to think that the same God we see in Jesus would....centuries before....call for the murder of the entire city....kill them all, man, woman and child.....and all the animals too....take all the gold for himself....then burn the city down.  It just does not add up.   And to reduce the carnage, the pillage and the plundering, to terms like "possess the land" whitewashes and sanitizes what happened there.  And to explain it taking place as some kind of picture to point out a spiritual truth is to trivialize the very real human beings who suffered and died there.  Perhaps Joshua thought he heard God tell him to lead the children of Israel to "possess" the land but I am more inclined to believe that is just what Joshua thought he heard....because that's what he wanted to hear.  Just my opinion...

Cindi.....

Mercy Not Sacrifice

Cindi!!!

I can NOW say a word or two about that! I just got this!  I was reading this passage recently
and noticed that it says "don't build Jericho again."  I see things spirtual myself, but
what we have "destroyed" ......concepts, beliefs, etc., realms on our journey, we must
learn to leave it behind us, I think it was Paul that over in the new testament said, "If I
build again the things that I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor." I read that the other
night and thought of how they were not to rebuild Jericho.  Well, it makes sense at least
spirituallly to me.  Let us "Keep" our eyes on the nature of God that Jesus showed us, for
it was the right IMAGE that showed us LOVE.........oh! What a treasure God has put in our
earth, so powerful, that "many waters" cannot quench it!

[Cindi]

RedletterVoice said:

I was reading this passage recently
and noticed that it says "don't build Jericho again."  I see things spirtual myself, but
what we have "destroyed" ......concepts, beliefs, etc., realms on our journey, we must
learn to leave it behind us, I think it was Paul that over in the new testament said, "If I
build again the things that I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor." I read that the other
night and thought of how they were not to rebuild Jericho.  Well, it makes sense at least
spirituallly to me.

Perhaps if I thought the OT was JUST a myth and did not involve real life flesh and blood people...like Aesop's Fables....I could accept that.  I think it was Preston Eby who wrote about the connection of the names of all the "ites" (Cannanites, Amorites, Hittitites etc. etc.) with things to be driven out of our flesh...and he even connected the names to character traits....you know...like greed or lust....etc. etc.  I can't remember more specific details about the writing than that...but I do remember being disgusted that God would use thousands and thousands of people...killed in terrifying, painful ways just to give us this spiritual picture.  And are the things that occur in the OT really moral?  Is the God of the OT a moral being...plundering, pillfering...killing? Do we see anything that remotely resembles Jesus in these stories?  The people of Jehrico were scared to death of the children of Israel.  Would they have surrendered if that was an option...or was the only option to die at the hands of the Israelites? 

Rahab told the spies:

Joshua 2:9 I know that the LORD has given you the land, that the terror of you has fallen on us, and that all the inhabitants of the land are fainthearted because of you. 10For we have heard how the LORD dried up the water of the Red Sea for you when you came out of Egypt, and what you did to the two kings of the Amorites who were on the other side of the Jordan, Sihon and Og, whom you utterly destroyed. 11And as soon as we heard these things, our hearts melted; neither did there remain any more courage in anyone because of you, for the LORD your God, He is God in heaven above and on earth beneath.

and later on in chapter 5 it says:

Joshua 5:1 So it was, when all the kings of the Amorites who were on the west side of the Jordan, and all the kings of the Canaanites who were by the sea, heard that the LORD had dried up the waters of the Jordan from before the children of Israel until we had crossed over, that their heart melted; and there was no spirit in them any longer because of the children of Israel.

My friend Brian, on another list, posted the following which seems to indicate to me that sometimes the people of the OT THOUGHT they heard God tell them to do something...but later it was realized that it was not God afterall. 


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

There is an interesting example in the bible itself where a prophet explicitly contradicts an account written in an earlier book of scripture. In 2 Kings, the prophet Elisha anoints Jehu as king and tells him to "strike down the house of your master Ahab, so that I may avenge on Jezebel the blood of my servants the prophets" (2 Kings 9:6-7). Jehu got the Samaritans to wage war on Ahab and to bring him the heads of Ahab's 70 sons in baskets. Then Jehu marched into Samaria himself and "killed all who were left to Ahab in Samaria, until he had wiped them out, according to the word of the Lord that he spoke to Elijah" (2 Kings 10:17). According to the story in 2 Kings, God was pleased with this outcome :



The Lord said to Jehu, "Because you have done well in carrying out what I consider right, and in accordance with all that was in my heart have dealt with the house of Ahab, your sons of the fourth generation shall sit on the throne of Israel."

(2 Kings 10:30)



But the prophet Hosea was having none of this : he declared that God would "punish the house of Jehu for the blood of Jezreel, and...put an end to the kingdom of the house of Israel" (Hosea 1:4). ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So who heard God right?  Elisha or Hosea?  Somebody heard wrong.  Or he purposely mislead one of them.  To me attributing the violence in the OT to "God told me to do it"  just does not add up....and the acts he commands bear no resemblence to the the image of the invisible God I see in Jesus.  In the verse above, God praises the slaughter and says that it was "in accordance with all that was in his heart.  How do I reconcile that with the life Jesus lived?  The mercy he showed?  At this point, I can't see it any differently than I see it....

Cindi.......

[Kept]

Thats just it Cindi in a nutshell

Did anyone actually see the video of the guys sawing the head off of the one guy in the Iraqi war? Imagine that times 70 and then add in all the others in the verses above. Then imagine them throwing all those heads in large baskets and traveling with them to their destination and putting them on display.

This is real stuff, not movies, I think in part we are so used to getting our spiritual allegorical blessings in the bible that we have learned to compartmentalize, divorce ourselves from reality when we read it I guess

we certainly are peculiar alright lol

omgosh can you imagine if that happened today. We walk up to this lovely display and start pointing out all the symbology

now kids see those dangling heads on poles? They represent the flesh that God is cutting off and that pole represents the tree that Christ was cruicified on and ........see the spiritual symbolism children?

kept

[AbbasChild]

RedletterVoice said:

I was reading this passage recently
and noticed that it says "don't build Jericho again."  I see things spirtual myself, but
what we have "destroyed" ......concepts, beliefs, etc., realms on our journey, we must
learn to leave it behind us, I think it was Paul that over in the new testament said, "If I
build again the things that I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor." I read that the other
night and thought of how they were not to rebuild Jericho.  Well, it makes sense at least
spirituallly to me.

Perhaps if I thought the OT was JUST a myth and did not involve real life flesh and blood people...like Aesop's Fables....I could accept that.  I think it was Preston Eby who wrote about the connection of the names of all the "ites" (Cannanites, Amorites, Hittitites etc. etc.) with things to be driven out of our flesh...and he even connected the names to character traits....you know...like greed or lust....etc. etc.  I can't remember more specific details about the writing than that...but I do remember being disgusted that God would use thousands and thousands of people...killed in terrifying, painful ways just to give us this spiritual picture.  And are the things that occur in the OT really moral?  Is the God of the OT a moral being...plundering, pillfering...killing? Do we see anything that remotely resembles Jesus in these stories?  The people of Jehrico were scared to death of the children of Israel.  Would they have surrendered if that was an option...or was the only option to die at the hands of the Israelites? 

Rahab told the spies:

Joshua 2:9 I know that the LORD has given you the land, that the terror of you has fallen on us, and that all the inhabitants of the land are fainthearted because of you. 10For we have heard how the LORD dried up the water of the Red Sea for you when you came out of Egypt, and what you did to the two kings of the Amorites who were on the other side of the Jordan, Sihon and Og, whom you utterly destroyed. 11And as soon as we heard these things, our hearts melted; neither did there remain any more courage in anyone because of you, for the LORD your God, He is God in heaven above and on earth beneath.

and later on in chapter 5 it says:

Joshua 5:1 So it was, when all the kings of the Amorites who were on the west side of the Jordan, and all the kings of the Canaanites who were by the sea, heard that the LORD had dried up the waters of the Jordan from before the children of Israel until we had crossed over, that their heart melted; and there was no spirit in them any longer because of the children of Israel.

My friend Brian, on another list, posted the following which seems to indicate to me that sometimes the people of the OT THOUGHT they heard God tell them to do something...but later it was realized that it was not God afterall. 


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

There is an interesting example in the bible itself where a prophet explicitly contradicts an account written in an earlier book of scripture. In 2 Kings, the prophet Elisha anoints Jehu as king and tells him to "strike down the house of your master Ahab, so that I may avenge on Jezebel the blood of my servants the prophets" (2 Kings 9:6-7). Jehu got the Samaritans to wage war on Ahab and to bring him the heads of Ahab's 70 sons in baskets. Then Jehu marched into Samaria himself and "killed all who were left to Ahab in Samaria, until he had wiped them out, according to the word of the Lord that he spoke to Elijah" (2 Kings 10:17). According to the story in 2 Kings, God was pleased with this outcome :



The Lord said to Jehu, "Because you have done well in carrying out what I consider right, and in accordance with all that was in my heart have dealt with the house of Ahab, your sons of the fourth generation shall sit on the throne of Israel."

(2 Kings 10:30)



But the prophet Hosea was having none of this : he declared that God would "punish the house of Jehu for the blood of Jezreel, and...put an end to the kingdom of the house of Israel" (Hosea 1:4). ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So who heard God right?  Elisha or Hosea?  Somebody heard wrong.  Or he purposely mislead one of them.  To me attributing the violence in the OT to "God told me to do it"  just does not add up....and the acts he commands bear no resemblence to the the image of the invisible God I see in Jesus.  In the verse above, God praises the slaughter and says that it was "in accordance with all that was in his heart.  How do I reconcile that with the life Jesus lived?  The mercy he showed?  At this point, I can't see it any differently than I see it....

Cindi.......

Some things to think about. At the moment it seems as if this topic is following me everywhere I am going and I become more and more aware, that only the Son truly knows the Father.

Literaly the scripture says:

John 1:18  Nothing (Greek  oudeis) has perceived (Greek horeo) God at any time; the Only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom (heart) of the Father, He has declared Him.

John 5:37  And He sending Me, the Father Himself, has borne witness of Me. Neither has his voice been heard at any time, nor his form perceived (Greek horeo).

[reFORMer]

This, at least the first, posted earlier on the topic before this thread was split off of it.  They are really worth reading.

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/qamorite.html

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/rbutcher1.html

I heard on Nat'l Public Radio the other day that the result of certain research was that we could now, by doing certain things, lower our risk of dying by half.  I've heard this kind of thing before.  I just wonder how they can say it with a straight face.  Until entering the next age when immortals will be manifest as determining the course of human affairs, humans die, period.  You can't lessen the risk of dying which is 100%!

This is what seems to be lacking:  the realization that people die.  In an earlier post I pointed out that all lambs die.  Some died on the altars, set apart to God.  The same with people.  Some of all who die are examples of God's judgment against sin.  They would die anyway.  There are some who die as martyrs, sanctified to a higher purpose in their deaths.  They also would die anyway.  It seems the underlying fact of death at all would be the culprit here, not that some deaths are more meaningful for the Human community and for God.

While I have much sympathy for you, to those who say that, "I don't like it and I don't think it's the real God ordering people's death's in O.T. Scripture," how do you warm to the fact that He sees to it that everybody dies?

---James

[SeekerSA]

While I have much sympathy for you, to those who say that, "I don't like it and I don't think it's the real God ordering people's death's in O.T. Scripture," how do you warm to the fact that He sees to it that everybody dies?

Death is inevitable.  Taking a life saying it was ordained of God contradicts His law, in fact it contradicts all secular laws.  Even execution of a murderer contradicts the law of God, why would Jesus tell us to love our enemies when bringing up the eye-for-an-eye law?

Any justice carried out by man is subjective.  By that I mean, murder of a baby of 1 week is murder yet PBA is not.  What is the difference if I insert a suction piece into a born baby's head and suck out the brains as opposed to one en route down the birth canal.

That punishment should exist for murder, yes.  Killing the murderer does not bring back the life of the victim, it appeases the lust for revenge of the victim and is called justice.  God's justice does not work that way.

You say we do not see God ordering the genocides, that is correct.  If He did, then He is inconsistent and deserves no respect or worship or love.

Being appointed once to die by natural causes is OK with me.  That would include earthquakes, hurricanes and any so called "act of God" and in motor vehicle accidents.  No one can tell me that war killing is Okayed by God, that is man at his vilest.  In war, choosing to lay down ones life for a cause is noble, both sides are indoctrinated to think this way, I know, I was in the army and they are good at turning a person into a killing machine and they did not even use the bible.

The army nurtures hate and have subtle ways of making that happen, they appeal to your survival instincts and it is kill or be killed, far from God's law.  Now if there is any guilt, the moral side is dealt with subtly too.  Once you are immune to guilt and you conscience is dulled, you can kill women and babies, no problem whatsoever.

You only care for those that care for you and visa versa, called camaraderie, that is what they espouse in the war movies.  There comes a time when the conscience kicks in and either you crack or you become a psychopath.

Soldiers are expendable commodities, to them, the meaning of life is indoctrinated to meet the ends of the Generals who are not in harm's way.

Pro 10:11  The mouth of a righteous man is a well of life: but violence covereth the mouth of the wicked.

Ecc 7:15  All things have I seen in the days of my vanity: there is a just man that perisheth in his righteousness, and there is a wicked man that prolongeth his life in his wickedness.

Eze 18:27  Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.

I lost many a friend in the war I was in and what for?  All wars serve no useful purpose and all that is finally remembered is the atrocities carried out by both sides of the conflict.

I we believe God is one that instigates war then He is not a God of Peace.

What I am trying to say, when you take God and add man's opinions to Him, you see only the man and no longer God.  The God I know is Love and and Peace.  If the scripture says He did not desire blood sacrifice, how then can we say He desired that man kill his fellowman?

For me that does not add up.  Illogical.  Immoral.  Unjust.  Foolishness.

Blessings

[Cindi]

What I am trying to say, when you take God and add man's opinions to Him, you see only the man and no longer God.  The God I know is Love and and Peace.  If the scripture says He did not desire blood sacrifice, how then can we say He desired that man kill his fellowman?

For me that does not add up.  Illogical.  Immoral.  Unjust.  Foolishness.

I tend to agree with you here Bernie but.......

I've read the articles James posted.  Actually I have both of them (and quite a few others from that site and another site that is very similar called Tektonics) printed off in a binder.  They are both long articles.  The one is somewhere around 35 pages long....the other is around 45 pages.  I have read them both from start to finish. I also wrote a blog post about it...very, very short summary of some of the points the articles cover

Another View of the Old Testament Atrocities

There are many things to mull over in these articles.....snippets of history and culture and the traditions of the peoples of that area taken from historians and scripture that do put a different slant on the things that occurred in the OT.  There are similar writings at another site called "Tektonics."  I believe that both sites (Christian Think Tank and Tektonics) are sort of geared to answer the questions and objections atheists often raise.  They are very detailed in their information...and even if you do not come to the same conclusions about everything that  they do, (for example, they do both promote the logic and justice of an eternal hell) there are insights there to be gleaned.   

There is a lot of information in these two articles and I agree with James' suggestion that anyone who struggles with the OT God and "his" acts and directives should read these articles...along with the articles I mentioned at the God Quest site which take a completely different view. 

A Grand Experiment

The Voice of the Good Shepherd


...and there is one more that I've come across which I've also written about on my blog...more along the lines of another "explanation" of how and why the OT atrocities occurred.  It also brings out some points one might not initially think about when pondering the OT.

Here is the link to my blog post:

Old Testament "Killer God" blog post

and a link to the article:
What About This Old Testament "Killer God"by Lorraine Day

James said:

While I have much sympathy for you, to those who say that, "I don't like it and I don't think it's the real God ordering people's death's in O.T. Scripture," how do you warm to the fact that He sees to it that everybody dies?

This remark seems a bit dismissive of those who see the OT differently.

It seems to imply that with no thought or research or prayer or contemplation or leading of the holy spirit (who resides within all of us and will eventually lead us all into all truth) those who do not see things the way James does have just decided we "don't like it" and choose to simply not believe it....against all evidence to the contrary.  Just because others come to a different conclusion does not necessarily mean they arrived there "on a whim."  We ALL see through a glass darkly at this point, don't you think?

Cindi.....

[SeekerSA]

Hi Cindi

TY for the reply

I do not struggle with the OT God.  I struggle with the Hebrew interpretation of God.  God is a principle meaning HE never changes, He is Love.

When I read much of the wars and the Genocides, having a military experience forced on me by way of conscription, I know how easy a 18 year old is indoctrinated.  It does make you am man but at a price.  You need look only at your own veterans and their testimonies of how they battle to adapt to civilian society afterwards. Ever wondered why the call them the Armed Forces.

Having nearly "killed" two people with my bare hands, if I were not pulled off them by others, I know how they turned me from a school going pacifist to a monster.

Thankfully the Lord has helped me overcome that.

I will look at your blog.

Blessings

[Kept]

Hey SeekerSA

Mat 12:3  But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was hungry, and they that were with him;
Mat 12:4  How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests
Mat 12:5  Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless
Mat 12:6  But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.

Mat 12:7  But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.
Mat 12:8  For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

Jesus over and over made an open show of the whole system , isnt it amazing that Jesus the Son of God/Man reiterated what God spoke in the ot

as for me, mercy and not sacrifice, is very much alive in me! Everywhere I look God is speaking to me about this. He really is so good

ps I really see there is a religious system that claims the name of Christ and yet is nothing more than a continuation of the whole ot system and at the root of that system is sacrifice, Not Mercy!



bless ya
kept

[Molly]

Seeker, not to hijack this thread, but what you are talking about--turning boys of 18, 20, and older into killing machines--so needs to be talked about.  You should write a book.  Young men need to know what they are getting into, how it will change them.  It is a voice that is not heard--the voice of war veterans, nor does the establishment want it heard, because what if they had a war and nobody showed up?

There is no reason for war anymore, except that it is very profitable to a few, and gives them more power.  Is this necessary?  To let a few bring down the whole human race?  So they can stand on top of dead bodies and beat their chests?

Right now, we are the most powerful country in the world.  If we say there is no war, there is no war.

I watched one of the WWII battles on tv the other day--Normandy I think it was--thousands of american boys being thrown at a beach where the enemy was high on the bluffs just cutting them down, like shooting fish in a barrel.  What kind of monster general could order such a thing?  As if they didn't know what was going to happen--and in a war where the same people funded both sides...

You will know them by their fruit!

Maybe we get the God we deserve...

[Kept]

I agree Molly, more needs to be said on this topic. Churches all across America encourage their young men to inlist and fight and when they come home they are at war with themselves within.

sad

kept

[Molly]

well, you know, Kept.. If you had asked me my dream 10 years ago, it would be for a great Christian country like ours to be the most powerful in the world.

Now I bitterly repent of that dream..

Maybe the brutality of the Old Testament is still where most of us live.

[Kept]

It is where most of christianty lives Molly, exactly where they live!

They are singing about the shed blood of Jesus on sundays, standing under a fountain washing themselves and then going out on monday and calling for war!! Sick sick sick

its a continuation of the ot bloodthirstiness of mankind, they will never be satisified! Gods own blood didnt change their hearts and they use it to call for more blood! They could kill the last person on earth, be standing alone and then they would take the sword to themself because they are sick and need to see the true savior, the heart of God needs to be revealed to them! They dont know Him, hearts of stone covered in blood.

just my  :2c:

kept

[Molly]

May God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ give our brothers and sisters peace and love along with faith.

24 His favor is with everyone who has an undying love for our Lord Jesus Christ. --Ephesians 6

[Kept]

Its just so heart breaking to me and Im seeing this ot bloodthirstiness that has been at the forefront of my own life! It appalls me now.

God please totally completely deliver me of this spirit is my prayer

kept

[Molly]

Psalm 23:6
Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.


I heard a man who had died and been brought back from the dead talk on youtube a while ago.  Yes, I do occasionally listen to things like that lol.  He was weeping as he recounted how he had misunderstood this verse.  He thought the mercy and goodness were for him.  He said he learned during his experience that the mercy and goodness were supposed to follow him because he himself was  supposed to be displaying mercy and goodness wherever he went.  So it would always be behind him wherever he walked.


"shall follow" me
H7291

râdaph
raw-daf'
A primitive root; to run after (usually with hostile intent; figuratively (of time) gone by): - chase, put to flight, follow (after, on), hunt, (be under) persecute (-ion, -or), pursue (-r).

[Kept]

Thats beautiful Molly, really beautiful!  :HeartThrob:

Rev 14:12  Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Rev 14:13  And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labors; and their works do follow them.

goodness and mercy are the works that follow them!

kept

[reFORMer]

James said:

While I have much sympathy for you, to those who say that, "I don't like it and I don't think it's the real God ordering people's death's in O.T. Scripture," how do you warm to the fact that He sees to it that everybody dies?

This remark seems a bit dismissive of those who see the OT differently.

It seems to imply that with no thought or research or prayer or contemplation or leading of the holy spirit (who resides within all of us and will eventually lead us all into all truth) those who do not see things the way James does have just decided we "don't like it" and choose to simply not believe it....against all evidence to the contrary.  Just because others come to a different conclusion does not necessarily mean they arrived there "on a whim."  We ALL see through a glass darkly at this point, don't you think?

Cindi.....

Well, I don't like it.  I'm not sure what is meant by perceiving me as "dismissive;" but, I meant to get to the root of the problem, death, which also I doubly don't like.  It seems unarguable that God is ordering everybody's death, not just Hebrew Scripture deaths like the about 3 1/2 % of the Amorites that refused their more than 40 years warning to flee.  I really believe Jesus has at will a permanent, undiminishable and incorruptible physicality and others in history have also entered into immortal conditions, though dependent on Jesus who alone possesses it to bestow.  This was the prize Paul described himself in a race to obtain.  God is no respecter of persons; so, until I enter that very real opened door, I'm seeking why and how as I pursue the presence of God.  This is why I intensely dislike death.  It is now escapable, however rare to even believe that or rarer to obtain.

My own life is too devoted for many years to searching Scripture and other's understanding of it (I really do read commentaries,) as well as earnest prayer and also waiting on the Lord in self-emptying before Him to suggest to anybody I have or will speak to that they should cease such activities and just believe my opinion.  The message that Christ is the head of every human is one for which I've suffered.  I don't believe in other mediators.  We each need to become experienced in using our direct line to God until we are aware of being constantly in one another's presence.  It just breaks my heart to meet so many church people who have next to nothing to say about God.  Their whole Christian life has been spent as members of an audience for professional preachers.  Because of the way they meet, by practice they've learned they have nothing.  That is the Preacher's job.  Any who step out of bounds in those venues are seen as "off," or, "eccentric," or, "rebels."  Of course, our own being led of the Holy Spirit is left at the door.  The only ones that can possibly be led to do anything are those pre-approved on stage.  What we can be exercised in is trying to discern how annointed or not they are, thus becoming private critics rather than public participants.

When you falsely accuse me of dismissing those who are led of the Spirit you speak of the, "...leading of the holy spirit (who resides within all of us and will eventually lead us all into all truth.)"  If by this you mean that every human has the Holy Spirit residing within them I certainly do not agree.  This is part of why I talk to as many as I can as well as I am able about the things of God:  that they might receive the gift of the Holy Spirit which God has promised to them that love and obey Him and that those who have Him would be more given over to Him, better able to agree with His leading and teaching.  Ultimately all will be  brought to a changed mind and will acknowledge the truth.  That they can live a lifetime here after recognizing and obeying the truth, without all the destruction they might otherwise cause and instead with all the blessing that comes from intercourse with God is a very real motive to find means of communicating to as many as possible.

While this has been enough to answer, I will go on to expand what I meant in saying, "I have much sympathy with you."  I imaginatively put myself in the place of others.  I have believed there is no God on purpose just to understand what it is to think that way.  What is it like to be a Godly soldier?  What is it like to be an ignorant or passionate or other teenager of this or that kind today?  We are to pray for those in bonds as though in bonds ourselves.  One thing I have also definitely done is dwell in an inner attitudinal world where all death is wrong.  I believe there is much truth in it.  In some ways these discussions have pushed me there more; however, for reasons altogether not related to whether Divinely ordered executions are acceptable or not to me, I cannot deny that the Hebrew language portion of Holy Scripture is, along with it's Greek counterpart, God-breathed and above all other writings in existence (unless there are several otherwise secret Scripture portions not in the official canon kept by God for those that specially need them.)  While I believe in having love and respect for every human, I do not accept they are led of God to reject His Logos, the written as well as the incarnate.   I find I have to accomodate a common stodgy belief in the Bible that afflicts most followers of Jesus.  Love me or hate me for it.  I can do no other.

---James

[Kratos]

I think that a lot of problems can arise by taking different verses in different context and mixing them together. In one place, God says that "thou shalt not kill" and the Hebrew means "murder" as taking the life of an innocent person without cause. This is God's Law which reflects His will regardless of whether we are still uner that Law or not.

In another place, God says:

Gen 9:5  And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.
Gen 9:6  Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

This is also the Law and the revealed will of God. Some see a contradiction here, but I see perfect harmony. In the Ten Commandments God says that we shall not commit murder and if a person does commit murder, than that person shall be killed by God ordained government authority. Both are killing, but both are not murder. Capital punishment is God's answer to murder and not another kind of murder by society. It is because of God's respect for human life that He has ordained the ultimate punishment for it being casually wasted through murder.

David asked God to strengthen his arm to wield his sword and stated that God had taught him to fight. There is such a thing as a just war when evil men exist who would murder the innocent.

There was a case today that expresses this perfectly. A man came into a church in Coloradp yesterday with an assault rifle and killed several people including a father and his two teenage daughters. A female security guard armed with only a handgun asked God to strengthen her courage and her skill as she stepped out of cover and walked toward this assault rifle armed assailant shooting and killing him. What this man did was murder and what this woman did was justifiable killing to protect the lives of innocent families.

Surely anyone can see the difference. As long as men are going to walk into churches and malls with assault rifles to kill innocent women and children, others will have to be willing to do what is neccesary to stop them.

There is no contradiction between these two totally opposite kinds of killings. I will be glad for the day when all of us can beat our swords into plowshares, but it is not this day.

John

[Cindi]

There is no contradiction between these two totally opposite kinds of killings. I will be glad for the day when all of us can beat our swords into plowshares, but it is not this day.

John

A question...how do you think that day will come about?  Sincerely asking how you think we will get from where we are today (living with worldwide violence) to the day we beat the swords into plowshares? 

Cindi......

[Cindi]

James...
I don't have time this morning to reply to your post (which was a reply to a post written by me). I DID answer yesterday...a rather long reply but I knocked over a cup of coffee...splashed my laptop and in my haste to get it shut off quickly before anything started to sizzle, I lost the post.  The laptop is fine (splashed only the cover) but I don't want to appear to be ignoring your response....

Cindi......