Natives

[musicman]

HI there guys.  this is just another topic, as I flood this forum with all my thoughts and wonderings  :Chinscratch:

What do you think about the natives on this earth, they all have their ceremonies they perform, passed down from generation to generation, they recognize their creator, the great spirit, they are generous givers, always giving gifts etc...  do you belive their ceremonies are of god, or are they of the devil?? i just don't see how they could be doing devils work.  when they contact their anscestors etc,  how does this fit into biblical knowledge?  any thoughts?  has any one looked into the aborigianle people of this earth and how they fit into the bible?
adam

[micah7:9]

"....how does this fit into biblical knowledge?" ...........Not (of course it's just mo)

[jabcat]

I believe they're in darkness in this age.  YHWH will reveal Himself to them, and their knees will bow and their tongues confess Yashua is Lord/Master.  Same/similar to the Jews who rejected the Messiah and stayed with the Law.  They were not given to see and hear.  It wasn't and isn't their "turn".  This age is the age where God is drawing out an ecclesia (called out ones) to know Him through His Son ("no one comes to the Father but through Me"), and they/we will shephard the nations in the next age - as the gates of the city are open day and night and the kings of the earth are bringing their treasures into it.

I know some believe pagan worship is somehow of YHWH.  I don't believe it is.  Paul said there was a time God "winked", but that He no longer does.  I don't believe He will "punish" them for their ignorance, but He will cleanse them from it and open their eyes.   :2c:

[jabcat]

I just typed up a big thing agreeing with you Micah before I saw your post.    :thumbsup:

[micah7:9]

I just typed up a big thing agreeing with you Micah before I saw your post.    :thumbsup:

:thumbsup: Backatcha :dsunny:

[ded2daworld]

I've heard this "natives" argument before. Implying that these natives are spiritually "better than some others because they are friendly, loving, caring, giving, etc. IMO, Truth is, they are no different than the rest of us. They are sinnners and have their selfish moments like anyone else. Some are "good" people and some are "bad" people. Their ceremonies are no different, in essence, than moderns that are trying to "reach up to their God" because they know deep down they have not done right all the time. :Peace2:

[Lazarus Short]

When the peoples of the Babel area had their languages confused and took off in every direction, they retained the story of the Great Flood and Noah, and so forth.  Dozens of cultures preserve the Flood story, in various shades of accuracy.  The knowledge of God is no different, but I believe that God has seen to it that every culture bears His stamp somewhere.  I admit I could be wrong, but I have heard/read amazing accounts...

For instance, we have the Hopi people who have a long history of dealings with their Creator.  I think it was in the Book of the Hopi that I read about a ceremony where a figure comes down the ladder of the kiva, dressed in white, and announces that he is the first and the last...it seems parallel to certain wording in the Bible.  Further, Hopi prophecy has been so accurate in the past, that I keep an eye on it. 

Perhaps we should consider that one of the consequences of UR belief is that we should no longer divide the human race into civilized Christians and primitive, savage, barbarian, "natives."  We are altogether too proud of our techno-illogical civilization. 

[lomarah]

The "Great Spirit" is the Holy Spirit. This is not my opinion but has been revealed to myself and my friend by Father.

[Rich]

Hi, this one I struggled with mightily for some time.  Think what Jabcat and Ded are stating resonates as truth with me.  Many of these things, observed or read about on surface, can be enticing.  Dig deeper from objective source and wow.  All sweet and spiritual until they are not.  Just who they are, a sinful group like us, but without the corrective Word that we have been led to.  As previous follower of Dharmic traditions, now when read nearly whole of Old Testament, He makes very clear that these practices are sinful to Him. 
With Laz Hopi Indians, years ago, missionaries to India discovered in one of main Upanishads, which predated our Lord's human birth, huge similarities with John.  This seemed to frighten them (being subjective here) so they labeled it the work of the devil.  If look deeper though, Christianity, despite what seems to be all over www, is truly so very unique from every other religion, even at its most fundamental/simple level.   
What Laz says think is huge warning to me that we need to watch out not to objectify anyone.  If anything with what and Who we profess, we should be most vigilant against this.  Thanks Laz, I needed that.
Rich

[musicman]

thanks guys.  So its interesting to me a lot of the native traditions alllll over the world have the story of the flood.  So, here is a question connected to all of this.  Did the bible lie when it tells us only noahs family survived the flood?  IT seems to me many people survided the flood and could pass down the story???  is it true its estimated that adam and eve was 6000 years ago. so... that is when man kind fell into sin correct?  so does that mean every human that lived before noah was sinless?  according to old cave paintings almost 30,000 years old in australia defenitely don't show a blissful sinless life.  but wait , weren't adam and eve the first people ever?  huh?

[jabcat]

The "Great Spirit" is the Holy Spirit. This is not my opinion but has been revealed to myself and my friend by Father.

I'm part Cherokee :).  But IMO, even if the above is true, I personally don't believe they (or any "natives", caucasians, etc. [including myself])  truly know God unless it's through His Son Jesus, and will still need to "bow at the foot of the cross" at some point to be spiritually reborn.  If we haven't been given to believe in Him as our Savior, we're still in darkness, and worship in darkness.  Only one way to the Father. 

that their hearts may be encouraged, having been knit together in love, and attaining to all the wealth that comes from the full assurance of understanding, resulting in a true knowledge of God's mystery, that is, Christ Himself,  in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. I say this so that no one will delude you with persuasive argument.  Colossians 2:2-4

[misszoolander]

Does anyone here fellowship with people from other mainstream religions?
I don't have much friends with faith, but I have a few mates in the Vedic movement. We always discuss God, they assure me that "my" God is their God. At first I was a bit thrown back, and started telling them that Krishna has nothing to do with Jesus,
they replied with a quote from a devotee..

"If one loves Krishna, he must love Lord Jesus also. And if one perfectly loves Jesus he must love Krishna too. If he says, "Why shall I love Krishna? I shall love Jesus," then he has no knowledge. And if one says, "Why shall I love Jesus? I shall love Krishna", then he has no knowledge either. If one understands Krishna, then he will understand Jesus. If one understands Jesus, you'll understand Krishna too"

"Sometimes Sri Krsna descends Himself, and sometimes He sends His representative. The major religions of the world-Christian, Hindu, Buddhist and Moslem-believe in some supreme authority or personality coming down from the kingdom of God. In the Christian religion, Jesus Christ claimed to be the son of God and to be coming from the kingdom of God to reclaim conditioned souls. As followers of Bhagavad-gita, we admit this claim to be true. So basically there is no difference of opinion. In details there may be differences due to differences in culture, climate and people, but the basic principle remains the same-that is, God or His representatives come to reclaim conditioned souls."

Honestly I was a bit gob smacked. From that conversation on we often get together and discuss our walks of faith, I'm the only Christian there who gives them perspectives from my understanding but I have to admit, these people welcome me in with open arms, not wanting to change me, conform me.. just wanting to learn; it's incredibly refreshing when compared to my Pentecostal background, and shockingly enough these people read the bible daily, and have a unique understanding of it.

Do they have a true relationship with Jesus? this is something I can not judge.

[ded2daworld]

Like new age Jesus "the perfect Master" his life is an example. When they say Jesus was god they also mean so was Krishna.
Sin is rarely mentioned. They don't believe Jesus OR Krishna died for their(our) sins. They do believe there is a path to God but one must find it and then walk it. They have things one is supposed to do to bring themselves closer to God or to stay on the path. They believe in millions of Gods and Karma and re-incarnation. They also, like you said, are extremely friendly, caring, and loving, in general. :Peace2:

[misszoolander]

Thanks for that Ded! I am in no way a Unitarian Universalist but like I said, I can not judge them, I can only offer them advise and be an example of the Christ I love  :Peace2:  :dsunny:

[ded2daworld]

Right MissZ, no matter what someone believes now, they one day will be reconciled to God and an "official" brother or sister with a bond stronger than earthly family. Jesus' greatest sermon IMO was when he told his followers, "when you do something to or for someone else, it's the same as if you were doing it directly to/for me" (my translation)
Like John said, "if you say you love Jesus but hate someone, you're a liar." :Peace2:

[Rich]

Hi Musicman,
My thoughts only.

T he Bible does not lie. 
Really, to me, the 6,000 age debate is meaningless.
Only the 30,000 year comment does.  Who says 30,000 years old?
Likewise, the dating of the documented accounts from other cultures does.
L ikewise, the differences in these accounts as purported to have been.

Good luck friend.  From other thread of yours, glad you had such a powerful experience with the Lord and the Bible.
Peace.

[musicman]

I guess its scientifically proven?  Is this science wrong you believe?   and havne't they found skeletons and artifacts in australia dating back thouuusans of years? can anyone shed some knowledge and wisdom on this?  is carbon dating wrong?  really???  is science wrong about these old findings? 

[Lazarus Short]

I guess its scientifically proven?  Is this science wrong you believe?   and havne't they found skeletons and artifacts in australia dating back thouuusans of years? can anyone shed some knowledge and wisdom on this?  is carbon dating wrong?  really???  is science wrong about these old findings?

All radiometric (including carbon) dating, is based on the Uniformitarian premise that the input of Carbon 12/14 into the environment is constant over time.  That is unproven, however, and is thus unscientific.  Premises and assumptions must be proven just as much as the theorem.

There is evidence for a young Earth, and there is evidence for an old Earth.  I have no problem with the Earth being very old, and Adam having been made 6,000 years ago.  As for the very ancient records, such as the king lists, which go back many thousands of years, I have no easy answer, and that is coming from someone who began to study the Atlantis question 'way back in 1970.  We need either a time machine or the true history we will learn in the Kingdom to be certain - lacking the first, and with the second soon to come to pass, I am content.

[ded2daworld]

Musicman,
Science is not wrong, the Bible is not wrong. It is the interpretation of the scientific facts that lead to error. Carbon dating isn't wrong, but there must be many assumptions to get the date wanted. Assume how much of the parent element was present when  specimen started, assume that decay rate has remained constant during that entire time, (Water affects rate for example) and assume the specimen hasn't been tampered with since the beginning.
Diamonds are supposed to have formed millions of years ago, yet carbon 14 has been found in them. With a half life of (I think)14,000 years, anything at all with carbon 14 in it cannot possibly be over 60,000 years old. They have found dinosaur bones with living tissue still in the marrow, yet dinosaurs supposedly died out 260 million years ago. People date things based on their world view. That is how they interpret the facts. An atheist geologist looks at the grand canyon and says a little bit of water did this over a whole lot of time (100 million years) A creationist geologist looks at the exact same set of facts and says a whole lot of water did this over a little bit of time (about 4 months). The creationist geologist was proven correct when Mt St Helens exploded and the rushing flood waters formed a mini-grand canyon in a matter of a couple of weeks,
For more on carbon-14 dating, radio isotope dating, argon dating, etc. Go to the website AnswersinGenesis.org

[musicman]

Thanks guys.  Maybe GODS plan is that all of this gets revealed in its right time.  Maybe we are not supposed to know quite yet :)   Forgive me if this has been talked about in other threads, I am new here.  BUt I ask these questions becuase so many of my athiest friends would bring this up for an argument and I get stuck.    and they also say how did all the races come from adam, etc...  impossible they say.  what are your thoughts on this, what if adam and eve story was a symbolic story about man kind at that time falling, rather than just two?  I dunno just a thought!   :Chinscratch:   Maybe it as a larger picture.  hmmm.... anyways,  its always hard to argue something that your heart tells you is right when people fight back with science and uncomfirmed facts.  I never thought of carbon dating as possibly being wrong, so I'm very open to that now thank you!

[jbertonbounds]

I have often pondered what will become of those who never heard the gospel.  Even when I was an ET I could not accept the unjustness of God's throwing all of them into hell.  Since the Father enlightened me to UR he has also shown me this scripture, which made little since when I believed in ET.  Now it all fits together:

Romans 2:12-16 [ESV]
12 For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

Now, I am amazed at the grace and mercy of our Father, and have full confidence that He really is a just God and that His purification of the people who never heard will be an act of love, not torture.  WOW!  Every time I think about God's amazing love and grace, I feel this overwhelming sense of peace and joy that is indescribable.  I want to shout it from the mountaintops.  TGBTG!

[Lazarus Short]

Atheists typically have sparkling wit and shallow understanding.

[musicman]

more and more I realize some of us are gifted with good discernment.  and we know the things ``written on our hearts`` are able to recognize them when they show up in scripture etc... or comfirmed by god

[jbertonbounds]

Check out L Ray Smith's webpage article "What About Those Who Have Never Heard?"
bible-truths.com :thumbsup:

[ded2daworld]

As far as the races go it's REQUIRED we all came from Adam in the sense that DNA holds all our information, appearance, skin color, height weight, etc. a mutation or a mistake= a net loss of genetic information so Adam had to have had all the genes for all the variation from the beginning.
Take dogs for esample, they ALL descended from a wolf. There are many breeds and by selective breeding, all the varieties we have today are here by culling out undesireable traits. Proof that there is a net loss of DNA information is that you can start with a pair of wolves and selectively breed until you get the last rung on the dog ladder - a toy poodle. Barely a dog but still a dog.
You cannot take two toy poodles and work your way back up the ladder to a wolf, shepherd, boxer, great dane, etc. Each kind reproduces after its kind as the Bible says in Genesis and there it stops. Canines will always produce canines, felines will always produce felines. With all the breeding and varieties, dogs are still dogs and cats are still cats and they cannot produce anything BUT their kind. In the same way, all of us humans will always and only produce humans. The differences we see are that our progenitor, Adam, was created with all the various genetic material in him. That's also why it was originally OK to marry brother and sister. As time went on, the gene pool got smaller and now it's not even a good idea for first cousins. Mutations are 99% harmful and constitute a net LOSS of information 100% of the time.  :Peace2: